Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted January 26, 2021 Moderator Share Posted January 26, 2021 4 hours ago, pittsburghjoe said: All quantities of Scalar are the fall. https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/vectors.html I think we can all agree that this is NOT an explanation of entropy in his own words. So again @pittsburghjoe you seem to like using sciencey sounding words, explain to us in your own words (i.e. not posting unrelated links) what entropy is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted January 26, 2021 Author Share Posted January 26, 2021 You complain when there isn't science and then you complain when there is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 17 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said: I think we can all agree that this is NOT an explanation of entropy in his own words. So again @pittsburghjoe you seem to like using sciencey sounding words, explain to us in your own words (i.e. not posting unrelated links) what entropy is. NASA doesn't speak much about Jebus in that article on vectors and stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 12 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said: You complain when there isn't science and then you complain when there is. Science is great. It just doesnt have anything to do with Jesus. (braces for a repaste) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 12 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said: You complain when there isn't science and then you complain when there is. Ah, so you're no more than a cut-'n'-paste physics fanboi who doesn't actually understand anything you're posting. Thought so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyGone Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 Discussions of this sort remind me of when I first lost belief... Realizing that those Christians around me were so very fervent in their desire to have others buy-in to their personal beliefs that they were willing to tell themselves almost anything. And isn't that really the insidious nature of the thing? Day to day as I try to see this human reality as clearly as possible, the temporal reality through which we are all passing, experience at this later stage in life tells me that it's pretty damned important to guard against incorporating wishful thinking and fantasy into my belief and awareness. To fully and completely be aware that the truth doesn't care what I think or how I feel. When I lie to myself, willfully or otherwise, then I'm abdicating responsibility for myself and my actions, for my fate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted January 26, 2021 Author Share Posted January 26, 2021 If God is perfect order, wouldn't entropy mean we are in a fallen reality? If you are quantum waves in a wave universe, do you have any idea that you are not physical? Isn't it more likely God would first create a Universe without the disorder of entropy? Imagine you're God, you have infinity to do whatever. You decide you want people that can think for themselves to be in your existence (free will). The only problem is that they can't be corrupted or it screws with your system. God is perfect order, coherence. Sin is disorder, decoherence. God needs us to be orderly to be entangled with him. You need coherent waves to quantum entangle. Disorder is our knowledge of good and evil ..it is why things are physical ..solid objects Mind–body dualism is wave-particle duality. There wasn't dualism before original sin. Are local objects that can remain local on their own, closed scalar volumes that have entropy? Is entropy disorder? Is sin disorder? Is God's Kingdom orderly? Is it Coherent? Is this reality of the fallen Decoherent? Check out the Double Slit Experiment: You either get an interference pattern or you don't. When you don't, the wave collapsed into our fallen reality of decoherence. When you do, the wave remained coherent until the final panel. Waves don't have entropy. They don't have disorder. Entropy sounds like something God would avoid for a spiritual universe. “Even if not actually measured, the mere possibility that an observer could determine which slit the photon passed through causes the interference pattern to switch to non-interference.” https://sciencedemonstrations.fas.harvard.edu/presentations/single-photon-interference The possibility of a particle being included in this fallen reality is enough to cause decoherence. Quote "John Wheeler proposed one solution, that the universe was only a quantum wave until humans came along to interact with it and cause the collapse backwards in time. Hawking wrote that history happens backwards in time rather than forwards." - Andy Fletcher Original Sin started this physical fallen reality. When the Bible mentions "dust" to create man, could it mean quantum waves? Dust sounds like particles to me. And particles can be in waveform when not observed. How else does someone from 2000 years ago describe quantum waves? Does "For our sake he made him to be sin" mean Jesus was made in a way that could interact with this fallen reality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyGone Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 15 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said: You complain when there isn't science and then you complain when there is. Not quite.... You trot out pieces of science, true though they may be, significant as they may be in other contexts, and present them as evident proof of something which you then characterize as "a something". From the point where the science cited by you ends, your argument then becomes "see???" presented in such a way as to pretend that you've somehow made the case for the Christian faith. From there you knit-together these little fairy-strands of innuendo. "See???" ....Just obfuscation and hand-waving... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyGone Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 “Imagine you're God, you have infinity to do whatever.” Anthropomorphism of God… you can’t imagine anything of the sort. The scriptures tell you that, repeatedly. “You decide you want people that can think for themselves to be in your existence (free will). The only problem is that they can't be corrupted or it screws with your system.” A nakedly false dichotomy… God couldn’t create a species of beings that he would find good company and deserving of His perfect kingdom, except by making them “robots”. Why? Think of the laundry-list of attributes of humankind which the Bible lists as our faulted selves here since “the fall”. Could an all-powerful all-knowing God not create a species which had total free will but was not made up of a “sinful nature”? Did Adam and his lovely wife (may the bitch suffer a thousand devils) have to be constructed of the nature that, within their free will made Eve decide to con Adam into eating of forbidden knowledge? Does that not then, being at the Genesis of mankind, equate free will with evil? By your premise, what other case could be made? Is God so limited that He can’t see that if you want your creation to be one thing, you should not then create it to be it’s opposite? You ever create anything that can then act under it’s own power? I have. And the process of learning how to do so was very much a matter of learning that if you want the thing you are creating to NOT be of a certain nature, you don’t make it so. It’s kinda simple, when you consider it. I managed to learn that, well enough to spend years creating things that could then act under their own power. And I’m pretty stupid… I sure as hell ain’t no God. See where you’re going with this? You are knitting this very common line of reasoning together to make your case… The Bible does not tell you this. The story of Genesis could be (barely) construed to hint at this, but it does not say it anywhere. You made it up. You’re in good company though, lots of folks decide this same line of human-powered reasoning is their personal spiritual enlightenment too. "There wasn't dualism before original sin" You must be a priest... The Bible tells you there WAS dualism, in Eve. Else, we would all live today in paradise. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted January 26, 2021 Author Share Posted January 26, 2021 On 1/25/2021 at 12:21 PM, pittsburghjoe said: The issue is that you don't read what I write: For those of you that want to claim there isn't Free Will because God knows the outcome. What makes you think he didn't see that we always eventually fall? This reality of the fallen was always going to happen. We always chose to disobey eventually. So now we have to learn why it is wrong and get back on track for infinity. Sin isn't compatible with infinity. On 1/25/2021 at 12:35 PM, pittsburghjoe said: I'm saying no matter how many times God would have prevented us from taking this view of Satan ..it was always going to happen. God is offering us a way out of this mess that we put ourselves into. We are made in God's image. We can think LIKE him. He want's souls that can think like him to be entangled for infinity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christianchat_Chat Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 On 1/24/2021 at 5:49 PM, WalterP said: Hello Christian. You may not know it, but you've inadvertently hit upon one of the things that helped a lot of us become Ex-Christians. On 1/24/2021 at 5:49 PM, WalterP said: There's no objective way of knowing. Realizing this helped kill our faith and converted many of us into Ex-Christians. Walter. realizing we don't know is very important yes, i have seen this too. but wait. don't stop there. ////// the Bible says, seek and you will find. but, however if we stop our searching at/by realizing we don't know, we have only acheived just that much of realizing. and that is all. ////// some thoughts atm. *////// - walls of the mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted January 26, 2021 Moderator Share Posted January 26, 2021 1 hour ago, pittsburghjoe said: You complain when there isn't science and then you complain when there is. Just to clarify, you posting links which are completely 'unrelated to your personal claims' doesn't there IS science to your claim. There are links to science issues, which are one thing, and there's your personal claims which are entirely subjective and through your own perception. Your claim that the uncertainty principle or scalar waves or anything else equals the bible's YHWH and jesus is not proven. You haven't proven the exist of god in the first place, let alone proven that your assertions about physics combined with your personal ideas and claim about god are factual. Do you really not understand the situation 14 pages into us trying to tell you???? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christianchat_Chat Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 46 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said: If God is perfect order, wouldn't entropy mean we are in a fallen reality? If you are quantum waves in a wave universe, do you have any idea that you are not physical? Isn't it more likely God would first create a Universe without the disorder of entropy? God is perfect order, coherence. Sin is disorder, decoherence. God needs us to be orderly to be entangled with him. You need coherent waves to quantum entangle. Disorder is our knowledge of good and evil ..it is why things are physical ..solid objects Mind–body dualism is wave-particle duality. There wasn't dualism before original sin. Is entropy disorder? Is sin disorder? Is God's Kingdom orderly? Is it Coherent? Is this reality of the fallen Decoherent? Original Sin started this physical fallen reality. “Some tourists think Amsterdam is a city of sin, but in truth it is a city of freedom. And in freedom, most people find sin.” – The Fault in Our Stars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted January 26, 2021 Author Share Posted January 26, 2021 It is you that claims I have to prove God exists first. I'm saying you use science to arrive at a God. The end goal is the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyGone Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 1 minute ago, pittsburghjoe said: It is you that claims I have to prove God exists first. I'm saying you use science to arrive at a God. The end goal is the same. Are you saying here, in this post that you have in fact used science to prove that there is a God? Can't be too sure what you really mean by "the end goal", but my goal is to know the truth, without regard to how I feel or what I may wish the truth to be. And with equal disregard for what other humans may believe or wish it to be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyGone Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 4 minutes ago, Christianchat_Chat said: “Some tourists think Amsterdam is a city of sin, but in truth it is a city of freedom. And in freedom, most people find sin.” – The Fault in Our Stars In being human, people find what the Bible deems sin. It's really no more complex than that. If you choose to find biblical truth in that then do as you will. Being in Amsterdam or being in Akron is only a matter of political difference and degree of civil authoritarian control. It says nothing otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted January 26, 2021 Moderator Share Posted January 26, 2021 40 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said: We are made in God's image. We can think LIKE him. He want's souls that can think like him to be entangled for infinity. How do you KNOW so much about this as of yet unproven god??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted January 26, 2021 Author Share Posted January 26, 2021 I think it is the religious revival for the end of this fallen reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted January 26, 2021 Moderator Share Posted January 26, 2021 15 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said: It is you that claims I have to prove God exists first. I'm saying you use science to arrive at a God. The end goal is the same. You've tried, so far it doesn't work. Back working your way through science hasn't proven the existence of god. How do you NOT understand that? You thinking that you've proven god, doesn't mean you've proven god. If you have proven god, it would be HUGE. It's never been done to date.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 16 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said: It is you that claims I have to prove God exists first. I'm saying you use science to arrive at a God. The end goal is the same. You obviously don't understand how to use science to support your premise. You can't just point at someone else's experiment and then claim that it supports the existence of (Biblegod / Batman / fill in the blank). You have to produce actual experimental data to show how it supports your claim, and do so in a way that other people can repeat the experiment and get similar results. All you're doing is purloining the work of legitimate physicists and trying to paint it over with one particular type of mythology. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted January 26, 2021 Moderator Share Posted January 26, 2021 Let's get this straightened out. Whether or not infinite and eternal waves exist, doesn't not mean that those waves ARE god, nor specifically YHWH!!! Do you comprehend??? An infinite and eternal multiverse does not prove god, either. They would prove the existence of aspects of the natural order of existence. Furthermore, once you start calling things which are infinite and eternal god, you begin to leave behind monotheism and therefore the bible. And you begin a path to pantheism. This is the most important part of it. Even if you DID prove god through science, you would be disproving monotheism and the bible in the process of doing it. Because what you're reaching for turns god into existence itself, as the totality. Which is what omnipresence means, BTW! This entire shebang is direction leading far and away from (1) monotheism and (2) the bible. Even if we grant you credit by associating these physics issues with god. You're wrong, and then wrong again... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted January 26, 2021 Author Share Posted January 26, 2021 I don't have the equipment to test the spin of particles that land in an interference pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyGone Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 5 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said: I don't have the equipment to test the spin of particles that land in an interference pattern. You might begin your search here: https://www.newport.com/ https://www.kamansensors.com/ https://www.lakeshore.com/ https://www.althensensors.com/ https://www.omega.com/en-us/data-acquisition/data-loggers/c/multi-channel-programmable-and-universal-input-data-loggers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted January 26, 2021 Author Share Posted January 26, 2021 3 minutes ago, Joshpantera said: Let's get this straightened out. Whether or not infinite and eternal waves exist, doesn't not mean that those waves ARE god, nor specifically YHWH!!! Do you comprehend??? An infinite and eternal multiverse does not prove god, either. They would prove the existence of aspects of the natural order of existence. Furthermore, once you start calling things which are infinite and eternal god, you begin to leave behind monotheism and therefore the bible. And you begin a path to pantheism. This is the most important part of it. Even if you DID prove god through science, you would be disproving monotheism and the bible in the process of doing it. Because what you're reaching for turns god into existence itself, as the totality. Which is what omnipresence means, BTW! This entire shebang is direction leading far and away from (1) monotheism and (2) the bible, even if we grant you credit by associating these physics issues with god. I don't care what it does as long you understand Jesus is our only way out of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted January 26, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted January 26, 2021 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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