pittsburghjoe Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 Quote If God saw that we always eventually fail then we didnt have any free will to succeed. That doesn't make any sense I'm saying no matter how many times God would have prevented us from taking this view of Satan ..it was always going to happen. God is offering us a way out of this mess that we put ourselves into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 23 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said: We have to live in sin to understand why it wrong. To never request this disorder again. God is about infinity. I'm living it right now. I dont understand it to be wrong. Perfection can be infinitely disordered. Are you OCD? Are all the pictures hanging on your walls perfectly level? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 You can't have an infinite number of anything physical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted January 25, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted January 25, 2021 45 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: But why, and how, did he even exist in the first place if everything was surfing god's perfect wave before this supposed, partially-allegorical-but-also-entirely-"factual," fall took place? 41 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said: We have to live in sin to understand why it wrong. To never request this disorder again. God is about infinity. Quit spitting out the same unfounded garbage and answer the fucking question. WHY, and HOW, did Satan exist before the fall if EVERYTHING was wavy perfection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 Satan was a high ranking angel before the fall. Angels don't have the same set of rules as humans. Satan fell and God cast him here. He still isn't physical. The choice we had in the garden was the symbolism to enter this place that Satan had already occupied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin webmdave Posted January 25, 2021 Admin Share Posted January 25, 2021 30 minutes ago, midniterider said: So 'why is sin wrong' ? Because God arbitrarily says so? Or because there is actual harm being done? Sin is disobeying biblegod's commands. "Don't eat the fruit of this tree." So, eating a certain fruit is a "sin" only because god says so. In this case no one is harmed by the actual fruit. King Saul was supposedly commanded by biblegod to commit complete genocide against the Amalakites. (1 Sam 15). Saul failed to kill everyone and every animal, so the story goes, and biblegod counted that disobedience as sin. Sin only exists if biblegod exists, because sin is disobedience to god. So, is murder wrong because it is inheritantly wrong or only because bible god says so? If it is inheritantly wrong, then who needs a god? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 26 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said: That doesn't make any sense I'm saying no matter how many times God would have prevented us from taking this view of Satan ..it was always going to happen. Almost like we didnt have a choice. 26 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said: God is offering us a way out of this mess that we put ourselves into. It's not my problem if my creator doesn't know how to make people correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted January 25, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted January 25, 2021 4 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said: Satan was a high ranking angel before the fall. Angels don't have the same set of rules as humans. Satan fell and God cast him here. He still isn't physical. The choice we had in the garden was the symbolism to enter this place that Satan had already occupied. So god created Satan and Satan was part of god's perfect wave riding team, is this correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 It is your problem if you want to live forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 25 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said: You can't have an infinite number of anything physical. Why is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 26 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said: You can't have an infinite number of anything physical. God can have an infinite number of physical things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 Umm, name something physical that there are an infinite number of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: So god created Satan and Satan was part of god's perfect wave riding team, is this correct? It's called free will, angels have it also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 3 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said: It is your problem if you want to live forever. I dont want to live forever. YOU want to live forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 In peace, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 3 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said: Umm, name something physical that there are an infinite number of. According to your bible: Mt 19:26: With God, all things are possible. So God could create an infinite number of disorderly physical objects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 God can do whatever he wants, but he prefers to work in Coherence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 1 hour ago, pittsburghjoe said: The issue is that you don't read what I write: For those of you that want to claim there isn't Free Will because God knows the outcome. What makes you think he didn't see that we always eventually fall? This reality of the fallen was always going to happen. We always chose to disobey eventually. So now we have to learn why it is wrong and get back on track for infinity. Sin isn't compatible with infinity. You keep saying that. Please learn the difference between us "not reading" what you write, and "not believing" what you write. If we didn't read what you wrote, this thread would be empty. You're just very, very unconvincing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted January 25, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted January 25, 2021 27 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said: It's called free will, angels have it also. So god created Satan with the capacity to choose evil and Satan's capacity to choose evil was part of god's perfect wave. Is this correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 Satan was part of the wave when he didn't fall yet. God tosses disorder into this fallen reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted January 25, 2021 Moderator Share Posted January 25, 2021 13 hours ago, pittsburghjoe said: You are leaving out the part where we got ourselves into this mess. You keep repeating stuff like this but fail to adequately respond to the fact that under your worldview God created everything and everything that happens is according to God's will and plan. Ipso facto the fall was part of God's plan merely so he could have a redemption arc in the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted January 25, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted January 25, 2021 1 minute ago, pittsburghjoe said: Satan was part of the wave when he didn't fall yet. God tosses disorder into this fallen reality. So, in order for Satan to have the capacity to choose evil, while he was still part of god's perfect wave, then evil must have existed as part of god's perfect wave. Therefore, evil must have existed before Satan chose it, before Satan "fell", and long before Adam and Eve ever met up with the serpent. god created evil and claimed it was perfect, then blamed us for the aspects of evil that he didn't like (sin). Thank you, joe. This has been most enlightening. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 Cute. I keep telling you this is all about order and disorder. Disorder gets tossed out of the perfect ordered wave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted January 25, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted January 25, 2021 26 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said: Cute. I keep telling you this is all about order and disorder. Disorder gets tossed out of the perfect ordered wave. Cute. And we keep telling you that something happened within that perfect wave to cause the disorder that got Satan tossed out. That something had to be the presence/existence of evil. Had evil not existed inside the perfect wave, Satan could not have chosen it while he was still in the perfect wave, before he was tossed out. This is the logical conclusion of your attempt at reasoning, joe. Accept it and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 Disorder is not part of the ordered wave. That is the point. We can't be one with God unless we are orderly. ..without sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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