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God, Jesus Or Man: Who Led You Away?

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I think that most of the people on this sight have not had any experience with "god" or "jesus"

If we had we would still be christians.

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I think that most of the people on this sight have not had any experience with "god" or "jesus"

If we had we would still be christians.

OTOH, I *have* had communications with Odin, Freyja, Thor, Loki, Guan Yin, Tiamat, Durga, and many others. So I talk to them instead.

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you have already proven you are superior to me in knowledge. i have no clue what christian essenes are. and yes i knew you were joking. as was I.

Yes, I thought as much. Just made sure. :) Your comedian side is starting to come forward. That's good.

 

Just a little info for you:

 

The Essenes are an older religion than Christianity. It started as a Jewish cult hundreds of years before Jesus. It had some teachings that are compatible with Christianity, and some that is not. When Christianity started, the Essene Christian started to come too. John the Baptist is believed to have been an Essene Jew. The baptism was and is a part of their tradition and religion. I think some of the variations of it baptize everyone in every meeting. And they all wear white clothes. They're vegetarians. And much more. But their view of Jesus and God is a tad different than yours.

 

despite our belief differences, i really am a funny guy. i like to kid and joke. and as stated, i am going to lighten up on my posts, and try not to preach as much, but just throw out different ideas.

That is good. As I said before, we do have a few Christians on this board that has been with us for a while and are good people and participate on a good level in the discussions. But they are willing to understand and change opinions if so needed. And I am too. I have learned and changed some of my criticism too. We can all change and understand each other and meet halfway if we keep an open mind. Don't close it for other possibilities. And don't maintain that only your understanding is the only true understanding. There is no "absolute truth", or at least none that we can grasp or agree upon. Maybe the only absolute truth we have is "we do exist in some way".

 

---edit---

 

And your comment about "superior in knowledge", is only because now I'm willing to learn. When I was Christian, you and I would have been very alike, actually, I would probably have preached to you about your immoral and sinful ways, even if you were Christian. Because I was hard core fundamentalist. What I know right now, I have learned mostly in the last year or two. It took me 30 years of religious studies to get to a point that there's no answers in religion, but only more questions. And only a year to learn thousands of arguments against Christianity. It's scary. I had to read books and memorize them while Christian to defend my faith, but now, I only need to think to defend my apostacy. Learning becomes easy after that.

 

thank you for the history lesson. since i believe God of abraham to be the one true God, i can only beleive that it is the oldest religion. i think that moses was the one to write the written account that would be used for all ages to come. i will make a write up why i don't think it is based off of pagan beliefs, but i think it would be picked apart to the point of no return. simply put, moses was in the area of egypt which worshiped the sun god and many others. his was of one diety, a stark contrast to the popular beliefs of the area.

 

i came to the realization of something today in church. in my persuit to educate myself about ToE, our persistent debates of the written word, and the vast amount of theology and logic debates. i lost sight of what i care about most. God started becoming something written down, nonpersonall. this is not the relationship i desire with him. i was losing all emotion, but still strongly believed. if that makes any sense. emotion is what makes us human. and without that strongly humbling feeling i get for regretting the wrongs i have committed towards God and others, i would not feel a sense of forgiveness, which in turn, initiates another strong feeling gratitude towards God. this is what makes me feel human. this is what makes me want to care for others. and i didn't feel alone in my feelings with over 2000 people there. maybe i am crazy, maybe not. the one thing i have learned is nothing is for certain. i will still be on here, i really like you guys, but i am going to have to start limiting myself, i was almost going insane trying to figure everything out. i was almost to the point where i said fuck it, i give up on everything. and just shut down. i can now see how someone could lose there belief in God. you can theorize it right away.

 

stephen aka freaky freeday

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welp... we're glad to have you here freeday. han said that there are christians on this site that we are friends with and actually enjoy having here... but a lot of us here are borderline deist/agnostic as well. some us still believe in god, just not in the bibilical sense. we are no longer indoctrinated thanks to really reading the bible.

 

every point we make is historically and scripturally based. im glad to see you have an open mind to learning...

 

now with that being said, you stated:

i think that moses was the one to write the written account that would be used for all ages to come.

Why would he write in the third person? Why didnt he ever write "I did this" instead of "Moses did this"? And how was he able to write about his own death?

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welp... we're glad to have you here freeday. han said that there are christians on this site that we are friends with and actually enjoy having here... but a lot of us here are borderline deist/agnostic as well. some us still believe in god, just not in the bibilical sense. we are no longer indoctrinated thanks to really reading the bible.

 

every point we make is historically and scripturally based. im glad to see you have an open mind to learning...

 

now with that being said, you stated:

i think that moses was the one to write the written account that would be used for all ages to come.

Why would he write in the third person? Why didnt he ever write "I did this" instead of "Moses did this"? And how was he able to write about his own death?

 

never thought of that, maybe he had a scriber, maybe he was one of those people that liked to speak in the 3rd person. my mother-in-law keeps a kid that does it, really bugs the hell out of me. it is not known for sure if he wrote it. that is just the general consensus. there are other books that had to have been finished after the person died, one of the prophets of the OT comes to mind, but can't remimber which one. i can only rationalize that it was done by someone who was trusted. if i knew i was about to die, and had something important to tell, i would choose somebody i really trusted to carry it out.

 

its 4 am, got to go to bed, i am working tonight, maybe we will be slow, and i can get on.

 

later.

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thank you for the history lesson. since i believe God of abraham to be the one true God, i can only beleive that it is the oldest religion. i think that moses was the one to write the written account that would be used for all ages to come. i will make a write up why i don't think it is based off of pagan beliefs, but i think it would be picked apart to the point of no return. simply put, moses was in the area of egypt which worshiped the sun god and many others. his was of one diety, a stark contrast to the popular beliefs of the area.

Well, I have to point out an inconsistency in what you believe there and what you know.

 

You know that Egypt had a religion while Moses were there. So the Egyptian religion must be older than the Mosaic Judaism, even by Biblical standards. (Isn't the phrase: "The Bible says so I believe it"?) The Bible tell about religions even before that. So if the Bible admits that other religions existed before Judaism, then Judaism can't be the oldest. You could claim it's the oldest Monotheistic religion, even though there's some doubts about that too.

 

And Abraham came from Ur, in the older Babylonian era:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonia

 

They had religion too. And the story about Noa (Gilgamesh) came from there, and probably the Adam and Eve story too, since they found images with the man and woman with the tree, fruit and a snake.

 

Religion and mythology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaldean_mythology

 

 

stephen aka freaky freeday

Good luck Stephen.

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never thought of that,

of course not... we were all taught on bible subject matters with a bias. no one ever mentions negative stories, inconsistencies, contradictions, and etc. etc. etc.

 

maybe he had a scriber, maybe he was one of those people that liked to speak in the 3rd person. my mother-in-law keeps a kid that does it, really bugs the hell out of me.

than you should be highly irritated by moses for doing this. but anyhow.... we shouldnt make assumptions, but why not simply assume he didnt write the scriptures attributed to him?

 

rarely does anyone ever write in the 3rd person. nowhere in the bible does it ever have a person talking in 3rd person... especially where the authorship has been authenticated.

 

it is not known for sure if he wrote it.

agreed. nobody knows who wrote Pentateuch.

 

that is just the general consensus.

the only reason why people believe Moses wrote the Pentateuch is because of references in the synoptic gospel that were taken out of context.

 

i can only rationalize that it was done by someone who was trusted. if i knew i was about to die, and had something important to tell, i would choose somebody i really trusted to carry it out.

again we shouldnt assume, but actually i once heard that it was actually Joshua who wrote the books, or at least was said to have finished it for Moses, all based on your logic.

 

anywho... with that being said, ill drop the subject matter. we're deviating from the OP.

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One thing I'll say for you D, you are an excellent writer. Seriously.

 

You would enjoy reading about the suffering of a wicked sinner in the hands of your angry god... :Hmm:

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...........

anywho... with that being said, ill drop the subject matter. we're deviating from the OP.

I don't believe it matters since the thread starter has fled and abandoned the thread. "Deviate" away to your heart's content.

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I think my own growing maturity led me away from christianity as I had known it then. Ironically, it was evangelical christianity that was stopping my true spiritual growth and development. I got to the stage where I couldn,t live with god....and I couldn,t live without "him". The ensuing struggle forced me to genuinely search, and that has led to something far more nourishing and fulfilling. God is dead........long live God!

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i came to the realization of something today in church. in my persuit to educate myself about ToE, our persistent debates of the written word, and the vast amount of theology and logic debates. i lost sight of what i care about most. God started becoming something written down, nonpersonall. this is not the relationship i desire with him. i was losing all emotion, but still strongly believed. if that makes any sense. emotion is what makes us human.

You're getting close. First, emotion is not what makes us human, but it definitely is part of it. Our mind is also as much a part of our humanity. Pure rationality can be sterile and lifeless without emotion. Pure emotion in the human experience is unguided and useless without the mind. Now that you have examined the rational basis of your faith system under the light of scientific inquiry, you are beginning to feel a disconnect from it, as I would well expect. When you drew back away from the rational, and stepped into the non-rational (not the same as irrational), you experienced the spirit.

 

I suspect you are moving into a new world of conflict that you will eventually need to reconcile with your sense of the spirit. I'll help you out in advance. The key: Give up on trying making the Bible stories literal truths, rather than allegorical, metaphorical, mythological stories for the spirit to explore non-rational thought. Then you will be in the position of the rational person who does not deny reality, yet can enjoy the wonder of experience of being human - both rational and non-rational.

 

Peace

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never thought of that, maybe he had a scriber, maybe he was one of those people that liked to speak in the 3rd person. my mother-in-law keeps a kid that does it, really bugs the hell out of me. it is not known for sure if he wrote it. that is just the general consensus.

 

 

It is not the general consensus. Are you unfamiluar with Higher Criticism and the Documentary hypothesis?

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never thought of that, maybe he had a scriber, maybe he was one of those people that liked to speak in the 3rd person. my mother-in-law keeps a kid that does it, really bugs the hell out of me. it is not known for sure if he wrote it. that is just the general consensus.

 

 

It is not the general consensus. Are you unfamiluar with Higher Criticism and the Documentary hypothesis?

 

i have read briefly about it, i know it as the JEPD hypothesis.

 

Biblical archaeologist W.F. Albright stated that even the most ardent proponents of the documentary hypothesis must admit that, like the Book of Jasher, and the Book of the Wars of the Lord, no tangible, external evidence for the existence of the hypothesized J, E, D, P sources exists. The late Dr. Yohanan Aharoni, in his work Canaanite Israel during the Period of Israeli Occupation (referenced from simpletoremember.com states that "[r]ecent archaeological discoveries have decisively changed the entire approach of Bible critics" and that later authors or editors could not have put together or invented these stories hundreds of years after they happened.

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i have read briefly about it, i know it as the JEPD hypothesis.

 

Biblical archaeologist W.F. Albright stated that even the most ardent proponents of the documentary hypothesis must admit that, like the Book of Jasher, and the Book of the Wars of the Lord, no tangible, external evidence for the existence of the hypothesized J, E, D, P sources exists. The late Dr. Yohanan Aharoni, in his work Canaanite Israel during the Period of Israeli Occupation (referenced from simpletoremember.com states that "[r]ecent archaeological discoveries have decisively changed the entire approach of Bible critics" and that later authors or editors could not have put together or invented these stories hundreds of years after they happened.

 

Just as there is no tangible, external evidence that Moses was the author. However, there is plenty of internal evidence that Moses was not the author, and no internal evidence (that I remember) that Moses (or even some unknown single person) was the author. If you read Hebrew, the evidence for multiple sources is as plain as the end of your nose, and it is hard to mistake the redaction even in English. The guesses as to how the redaction went down will not be conclusive, but at the very least one would have to suppose Moses had some sort of multiple personality disorder to make him the author.

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Freeday,

Glad you had a good time in church, but remember something about emotions... they are easily manipulated. It's supposed to be Fact, Faith, Feelings. You haven't gotten past the 'Fact' part yet, at least from my (our) observations.

 

Amy, What a sweet thing to say. You did see the sarcasm in my post, right? I hope you saw it for what it was, otherwise I'm not such a good writer! But thank you for saying so.

Also, I'm glad you are still around, you brave little toaster, you.

 

 

:grin:

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Guest Istillbelieve

Many people here are angry, cruel, hateful, and just plain scared to search any more. They have done evil in the site of the Lord and now they're desperate to believe that they are right. If you're still a doubter and haven't turned cold like some here there is still hope for you - don't let me, them, or anyone tell you what you believe. Search for yourself, but really do it . . . not just the side that says the Bible's false, but search the side that says it's true . . . that it's TRUTH. Give both sides a fair examination. Don't be afraid to really check out the views of Believers as well as those who have turned away. You'll not be trapped into Christianity . . . you'll discover what you truly believe and be secure in your beliefs as I am. Not afraid to always and forever continue to search deeper.

 

All I can speak of is what God has done for me. I believe in the truth of the Bible. You all say I disrespect where you are coming from . . . I don't even know you people. I'm not assuming anything about what you have been through, what you know, and how you've come to know it.

 

You disrespect me and where I'm coming from. I'm not here to try to tell you all what the Bible says and what it doesn't say. You're all capable of picking up the book again if the moment strikes you. Why am I here? I guess out of curiosity as to what type of people would create and visit a sight for ex-Christians.

 

Why do I come back? Someone here said I can't save someone who has committed apostacy. That's probably true - I'll have to research that one. But possibly there are others here reading who have fallen into this web of hatred who might be saved by my words.

 

There is a God. Jesus did die on the cross and was raised from the dead. There are apologetists who can speak clearer on the truth of His prophecies and acts than I. Check it out for yourselfs. You're a slave to sin or you are a slave to God. Take your choice.

 

A thought about something in an earlier post about Christianity coming from an ancient myth: What if that wasn't a myth? What if God did the same thing for them earlier? If it works for one time period - why not another? Maybe God came to them too? Why does God doing something for an earlier civilization have to take away from what Jesus did on the cross? They say it means Christianity copy catted. Why would Jesus put himself up on the cross for a myth? Why would the 12 cowards die the way they did for a myth? Where did the body of Jesus go? Why didn't someone drag him up and down the street to prove that he was really dead?

 

Why has the Word of God survived as long as it has for so long with out someone "proving" that it was all a lie? Prove me wrong - people here are good at throwing insults, but they can't "PROVE" to me that Christianity is a lie.

 

Again, I've returned here out of a desire to help doubters of the Christianity faith to stay strong, and hopeful and to continue to reach for the truth.

 

I do realize that my belief doesn't automatically make what I believe truth . . . that's why I've asked those with questions and doubts to continue to search for the truth . . . you all have minds don't let what I say or what the people here say stop you from searching for truth. There is much evidence that the Holy Bible can be believed. There is much reason for you to hope that it is true.

 

JOY - Jesus 1st, Others 2nd, Yourself 3rd. It's a prescription that works. That heals. People here say that I've got blinders on, that I've been brainwashed, etc. I haven't . . . I continue to search, I'm not afraid to search deeper - and not just the Bible. Be open to all resources - but just continue to search until you find it.

 

I Still Believe

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Search for yourself, but really do it . . . not just the side that says the Bible's false, but search the side that says it's true . . . that it's TRUTH.

 

Guess what we all have done fuckface. :vtffani::asshole2:

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ISB, you have a complete misconception (still) of what/who we are.

 

We have ex-pastors, theologians, scientists, and normal, regular people like me on this site, but one common factor, we used to be Christians, and we DID read the Bible. And for some here, the Bible study was caused them to lose their faith. I can only guess that YOU haven't really read or studied the Bible yet. Get to it, now!

 

And you're just bringing up the same questions we've answered the last couple of weeks. Go back in our topics, read some, learn some.

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ISB, why should we listen to you? You're not a true Christian after all.

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[. Search for yourself, but really do it . . . not just the side that says the Bible's false, but search the side that says it's true .

 

We did search....thats why we are here. At least you admit there is a side which says its false. I came to that conclusion because I found it wasn,t true. Many of us on here are very earnest seekers. You are free to follow your path........leave us to follow our own.

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Good point Dibby.

 

ISB admits there is a dark and false side to understanding the Bible. So who's the authority to understand it? That was one problem I had as a Christian, too many different views from good people. No one really could agree on anything. They interpreted things in so many different ways, and they were supposed to be the authority. Finally, the best one was to read it as a story book, not a history book.

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Studying the bible was a fast track for me to ditch that butchering tribal god.

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Many people here are angry, cruel, hateful, and just plain scared to search any more.

Thank you. I’m none of the above. I know more grace in my heart now that I have left religion than I was every allowed to by the rules of religious doctrines when I was in it. I am constantly searching for meaning, or “truth”. But I think you think you have found it and it is you who are not searching any more. I am open, you are closed.

 

They have done evil in the site of the Lord and now they're desperate to believe that they are right.

Are you a prophet of the Lord? Why are you judging them using the words of a prophet? You aren’t qualified as their judge. Why are you overstepping what your God said, “Judge not, lest you be judged”?

 

If you're still a doubter and haven't turned cold like some here there is still hope for you - don't let me, them, or anyone tell you what you believe.

Thank you I don’t. I feel warmer and more loving in my heart every moment I am away from religion.

 

Search for yourself, but really do it . . . not just the side that says the Bible's false, but search the side that says it's true . . . that it's TRUTH.

Except do keep in mind that “truth” on the level of matters of the heart is personal and not objective “truth” for everyone. The “truth” you find will be what works in your life where you are able to live sincerely, to yourself in mind and spirit, and to the honor of life itself. To become some “faith” because of “soul insurance” is the height of insinserity. In either case, whether you find answers in the Bible or elsewhere, know it is personal and you have absolutely no right to judge other’s who find different truth for themselves. This will lead you into a destructive sort of inflexible faith that destroys a spirit of love and grace. I think we can see this happen all the time by those who shout “it's TRUTH!

 

All I can speak of is what God has done for me.

That’s right. And all I can do is talk about how I find meaning that doesn’t include God. It works for you, I’m happy. My non-theistic approach to life works for me. Do your beliefs allow you to be this gracious and be happy for me? Or must you judge me as an evil-doer, worker of evil? If you must, then do so. I won’t turn that on you.

 

You disrespect me and where I'm coming from.

I don’t have a problem with someone believing in God. I do find it difficult to respect someone who doesn’t respect others.

 

Why am I here? I guess out of curiosity as to what type of people would create and visit a sight for ex-Christians.

And now that you’ve come, do you damn us one and all? Are we evil-doers?

 

You're a slave to sin or you are a slave to God. Take your choice.

Now there! I take offense at that. I am no slave to sin. You judge me. Shame on you. I live a sincere life respecting others. You apparently don’t yourself with what you just said. Take the mote out of your eye, then apologize if you have that level of sincerity in your beliefs.

 

So far, you're not making much of a selling arugment on why your faith would work for me.

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Many people here are angry, cruel, hateful, and just plain scared to search any more. They have done evil in the site of the Lord and now they're desperate to believe that they are right.

How do you know this? Who are you to judge your neighbour?

 

 

If you're still a doubter and haven't turned cold like some here there is still hope for you - don't let me, them, or anyone tell you what you believe. Search for yourself, but really do it . . . not just the side that says the Bible's false, but search the side that says it's true . . . that it's TRUTH.

It's almost an unwritten law that when somebody starts to capitalise the word "truth" we are all in for a big dose of self righteousness. In your case you capitalise the whole word!!

 

 

Give both sides a fair examination. Don't be afraid to really check out the views of Believers as well as those who have turned away. You'll not be trapped into Christianity . . . you'll discover what you truly believe and be secure in your beliefs as I am. Not afraid to always and forever continue to search deeper.

Why don't you follow your own advice. If you have really checked out things from all sides you would give us the answers to the question we raise, you would answer the objections we point out. That you do not do so indicates you have no answers, you cannot overcome the objections raised, and instead of being an evangelist you become an anti-evangelist because people are not as stupid as you appear to to treat them. In a way you do the true Gods (yes I do believe) work here by drawing people away from xtianity.

 

All I can speak of is what God has done for me. I believe in the truth of the Bible. You all say I disrespect where you are coming from . . . I don't even know you people. I'm not assuming anything about what you have been through, what you know, and how you've come to know it.

Your opening remarks reveal your heart -you make very big assumptions and judge falsely the people here.

 

You disrespect me and where I'm coming from.

No, we look for honesty in visiting xtians but seldom find it. Instead of answering legitimate questions they hide behind a smokescreen of emotionalism and unanswereed questions, just like you. We do not have respect for these kind of methods.

 

I'm not here to try to tell you all what the Bible says and what it doesn't say.

Its seems pretty obvious why - you don't actually know it very well at all.

 

You're all capable of picking up the book again if the moment strikes you. Why am I here? I guess out of curiosity as to what type of people would create and visit a sight for ex-Christians.

Is this really the truth ?

 

Why do I come back? Someone here said I can't save someone who has committed apostacy. That's probably true - I'll have to research that one. But possibly there are others here reading who have fallen into this web of hatred who might be saved by my words.

Like I say you are doing a good job in showing that xtianity is a religion of no real substance - you cannot answer the simplest of questions - people will think and act accordingly. In your own way you are anti-christ.

 

There is a God. Jesus did die on the cross and was raised from the dead. There are apologetists who can speak clearer on the truth of His prophecies and acts than I. Check it out for yourselfs. You're a slave to sin or you are a slave to God. Take your choice.

Are you suggesting that if a person is not a xtian they are stuck in sin?

Have you stopped sinning?

My own personal experience tends to point to xtians being amongst the most dishonest people I have met, they cannot even be truthful to themselves.

 

A thought about something in an earlier post about Christianity coming from an ancient myth: What if that wasn't a myth? What if God did the same thing for them earlier? If it works for one time period - why not another? Maybe God came to them too?

Good point!

 

Why does God doing something for an earlier civilization have to take away from what Jesus did on the cross?

You are correct is doesn't necessarily follow.

 

They say it means Christianity copy catted.

It can indeed be argued that all revelations, no matter the religion or culture, were to lead up to Jesus Christ who appears to unite a number of different myths. Many people might think this is due entirely to the creative writing of the NT authors whilst some xtians hold the view that this was providence at work. You can have a real discussion on this point on this forum as long as you drop all the self-righteous shit.

Why would Jesus put himself up on the cross for a myth?

Who was Jesus, what did he think of himself, did he really exist? These are all big questions but you just take it all as being bible truth rather than examine the texts critically as many of the people here have done.

 

Why would the 12 cowards die the way they did for a myth?

This is just your opinion, were is your evidence in or outside the bible for these assertions?

 

Where did the body of Jesus go?

Buried secretly by some zealous members of his group?Some people see it all as myth and that there was no body in the first place - he didn't exist.

 

Why didn't someone drag him up and down the street to prove that he was really dead?

ditto

 

Why has the Word of God survived as long as it has for so long with out someone "proving" that it was all a lie?

Turn it around and prove that it is true. You are on a ex-xtian web forum, the onus is on you to prove what you say is true. We have good reasons for not believing that the bible is the word of God and you cannot seem to refute them.

 

Prove me wrong - people here are good at throwing insults, but they can't "PROVE" to me that Christianity is a lie.

ditto

 

Again, I've returned here out of a desire to help doubters of the Christianity faith to stay strong, and hopeful and to continue to reach for the truth.

You are doing a good job in turning doubters away from a false religion - xtianity- so you are welcome to stay as long as you like.

 

I do realize that my belief doesn't automatically make what I believe truth . . . that's why I've asked those with questions and doubts to continue to search for the truth . . . you all have minds don't let what I say or what the people here say stop you from searching for truth. There is much evidence that the Holy Bible can be believed. There is much reason for you to hope that it is true.

Why not show us then the substance to your beliefs, the reasons for your hopes, the object of your trust, instead of ignoring everything that is put to you. Do you really believe you are serving the Lord by this display of incompetence?

 

JOY - Jesus 1st, Others 2nd, Yourself 3rd.

If point 1) was "God" then I would agree. You have yet to prove that he is.

 

It's a prescription that works. That heals. People here say that I've got blinders on, that I've been brainwashed, etc. I haven't . . . I continue to search, I'm not afraid to search deeper - and not just the Bible. Be open to all resources - but just continue to search until you find it.

OK begin by answering the questions raised and deal with our objections instead of just simply ignoring them.

 

I Still Believe

Yes but in what, that is the question.

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<locks & loads>

 

Many people here are angry, cruel, hateful, and just plain scared to search any more. (...) Search for yourself, but really do it . . . <snip> Give both sides a fair examination. Don't be afraid to really check out the views of Believers as well as those who have turned away. You'll not be trapped into Christianity . . . you'll discover what you truly believe and be secure in your beliefs as I am. Not afraid to always and forever continue to search deeper.

 

Well, that's bullshit. Hey everybody, are you guys scared to search? Let's see a show of hands - who's "scared to search"?

 

Hm. Not me. Like it's any of your business what spiritual searching anybody does, anyway.

 

You obviously haven't been paying a damn bit of attention. If you had, you'd realize that just about everybody on this site has done exactly what you describe - and has come out of Xianity much happier, and much better for it.

 

Or is that just a reality that makes you uncomfortable? That people could perform a thorough, heartfelt, intelligent examination of Xianity, weigh it in the scales and find it wanting... and then stop believing... and then continue on to have better lives for their unbelief. There are people here who were former pastors, even, who have been through this process, diligently and with great introspection... and still gave it up. Does that bother you?

 

You all say I disrespect where you are coming from . . . I don't even know you people.

 

You do disrespect "where we're coming from", because you seem to have dismissed or ignored so much of our experience. And you're right, you don't know us. While getting to know someone via an internet forum is certainly limited, our extimonies are out there plain to see. If you'd read them without judgment, you might not be feeding us a line of self-righteous, superior crap right now. You might actually have a clue about where many of us have come from and how we got where we are.

 

I'm not assuming anything about what you have been through, what you know, and how you've come to know it.

 

You're not really bothering to find out, either. It's painfully obvious that you either haven't read the ex-timony pages at all, or else read them with a very selective, judgmental pair of blinders on.

 

You disrespect me and where I'm coming from.

 

Well, it couldn't have anything to do with your condescending attitude, now, could it.

 

You're right. I certainly have no respect for preachy types who come in here saying the same things we've heard over and over and over and over and over and over again, bringing in their smug, superior, holier-than-thou attitudes, seeking converts, or wanting to visit us like we're some fucking carnival freak show.

 

Xians seeking an intelligent debate, or really honestly wanting to understand why we gave up our former faith, come to this board with a COMPLETELY different attitude and point of view. They speak with humility, pay attention to our extimonies (even if they might be puzzled by them), and act with respect for our decisions to leave the fold (even if they disagree).

 

I have yet to see anything even remotely resembling respect from you. Until you drop the arrogant attitude, you will get nothing but hostility here - and you will deserve every drop of it.

 

Why am I here? ...Why do I come back?

 

I dunno. A glutton for punishment, maybe? You have a persecution complex which needs justifying? Curiosity, as you said? Who knows?

 

You're a slave to sin or you are a slave to God. Take your choice.

 

:Wendywhatever:

 

Again, I've returned here out of a desire to help doubters of the Christianity faith to stay strong, and hopeful and to continue to reach for the truth.

 

I seriously, seriously doubt you're here to "help" anybody. Even if you are, that's a fairly condescending attitude to have - that you, the great and mighty Xian, have to come in here to "help" us poor, helpless, lost little souls. Well, lady, we didn't ask for your help, and we don't need it.

 

JOY - Jesus 1st, Others 2nd, Yourself 3rd. It's a prescription that works. That heals.

 

No, it's an empty Christianese™ catchphrase that doesn't really mean anything.

 

People here say that I've got blinders on, that I've been brainwashed, etc. I haven't . . . I continue to search, I'm not afraid to search deeper - and not just the Bible. Be open to all resources - but just continue to search until you find it.

 

<sarcasm> I'm so glad you've come here to tell us what to do! I mean, it's not like any of us here are capable adults, able to think for ourselves. Thank goodness we have someone enlightened to tell us what we should be doing with our spiritual lives! </sarcasm>

 

Look, just piss off. Chalk this site up to being persecuted for believing in Jesus (which isn't what all the hostility is about, but I don't think you have the wisdom or humility to realize that), congratulate yourself for earning great rewards in heaven, shake the dust from your sandals, and move on.

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