Prayer Helps No One

[mwc]

Now, where does Paul misquote the OT?

It's been a good, long time since I've posted one of my essay's here. But since you asked for it Scott I'm going to give you the answer you're looking for. The following is part of an email conversation I was having with someone else awhile back but it applies to Paul misquoting the OT, the law and jesus.

 

The old timers here might have already seen this, or something like it (so I imagine they'll skip it), the newcomers will learn how long winded I can really be, and hopefully Scott will find out what a true fraud and liar Paul was.

 

I normally do all my email in plain ASCII so I did a quick reformat so it looks a bit better here. The blue text is the OT, the red is Paul from the NT, the underlined text is the changes Paul makes to fit his doctrine. I think it explains itself overall.

 

So, read and hopefully learn something Scott (everyone else is more than welcome to read it as well ).

 

mwc

 

I'm not going to quote it all here but go ahead and read Deuteronomy 29 and 30 where Moses gives his speech from old god. We'll ignore the fact that Moses wasn't a real person (Egyptians have no records of this high ranking guy that led all the slaves away) for the sake of this discussion.

 

A quick look at 30:6 reveals where good old Paul lifted his "circumcision of the heart" line from in case you're wondering.

 

I'll quote from the The Bible in Basic English so you can see the important verses (the ones the Jews try to live by including those in that magic age of no-jesus). I'll include some comments of my own (I know the other arguments but a simple read raises interesting points in and of itself):

 

11 For these orders which I have given you today are not strange and secret, and are not far away.

 

Okay, so first we see what "GOD" (remember Moses is simply delivering god's speech on his behalf here) says that the laws aren't some wierd thing the people can't understand. They are near to them. Well, if it's near then it's something you can get to or achieve. In other words god's laws are not an impossible task for the people to achieve.

 

12 They are not in heaven, for you to say, Who will go up to heaven for us and give us knowledge of them so that we may do them?

 

Here's what I think is a key verse. The way to achieve these laws is not up in heaven. No one will have to go to heaven (which implies coming from heaven as well) in order to help the Jews live up to god's very own expectations. Heaven does not contain the answers so the idea of god coming down from heaven to give the Jews the "answers" or anything to do with the law at all is simply not in the scope of things. This, in your view, is the "father" speaking and we know that jesus is subordinate to him. So god says don't look to heaven but look to yourselves to live up to my rules and you will be able to achieve that end. Jesus and Paul say something entirely different (more Paul than jesus) and this LIE is still taught around the globe to this day.

 

The interesting thing about that last bit I mention is that if you actually read the entire speech god warns against following false gods. God warns that if they do this punishments will come. Punishments that have befallen them for years but are in high gear once jesus hits the scene. Considering if you look elsewhere in the OT of how to spot a false prophet jesus clearly fits the bill. No worries though since he is fake.

 

13 And they are not across the sea, for you to say, Who will go over the sea for us and give us news of them so that we may do them?

 

Again, god says you don't need to look around the world. So combined with the above he is telling the Jews that they won't find what they're looking for in all of heaven and earth. Finding out how to be righteous in god's eyes cannot be found no matter where you look. But that kind of screws everyone doesn't it? I'm sure this is where Paul drew his conclusion. If you can't find it then it doesn't exist so no man can be righteous in and of himself. If this is the case then I guess Paul was right when he states the law is a curse since there's no way to understand how to live them.

 

14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may do it.

 

But god provides the answer. Look in yourself. The answers are in your actions and your feelings. This is how to live a righteous life. Don't be a dick is all god is saying. The rituals and other crap, I could care less about about, time and time again god himself tells his prophets the same thing and that is stop looking for answers "out there" but look for them "in there." Paul and jesus got this message so incredibly wrong it almost hurts. If you believe that jesus is right then god is technically contradicting himself and he can't do that (and jesus the man is a heretic as *accused* and *convicted* according to the myth). If you believe Paul then he contradicts god which makes him a heretic (although preaching to Gentiles moreso then Jews at least gives Paul some wiggle room since the speech is directed at the Jews here but it technically applies to anyone who wants to follow old yahweh).

 

So the problem is quite clear and is compounded by Paul's dishonesty in dealing with the verse to twist it to match his vision of the religion.

 

I'll quote the verses to compare so Paul's deception is exposed:

 

(In verses 1-4 Paul sets up his argument for faith in jesus and then twists the OT doctrine to make his point to the unwitting readers...who's going dig through the Torah by hand to disprove him after all)

 

(Romans 10 verses preceded by a "*")

 

*5 For Moses says that the man who does the righteousness which is of the law will get life by it.

 

The above stated is true if you read the entire speech. The problem is that we know that Paul is talking about a spritual life while Moses was speaking of a mortal life. An afterlife was not part of the religion to Moses and came much later on. Now, when "Moses" finally wrote these words (like in Babylon probably) the teachings of the Babylonians and other religions included such concepts that take shape over time.

 

*6 But the righteousness which is of faith says these words, Say not in your heart, Who will go up to heaven? (that is, to make Christ come down:)

11 For these orders which I have given you today are not strange and secret, and are not far away.

12 They are not in heaven, for you to say, Who will go up to heaven for us and give us knowledge of them so that we may do them?

 

Here's Paul's first lie as you can see. It mentions nothing of getting jesus. If jesus is the answer god clearly states that the answer, and jesus, is NOT found in heaven so don't bother looking there. There are NO secrets being kept by god. Everything that is to be known has been given to the people.

 

*7 Or, Who will go down into the deep? (that is, to make Christ come again from the dead:)

11 For these orders which I have given you today are not strange and secret, and are not far away.

...

13 And they are not across the sea, for you to say, Who will go over the sea for us and give us news of them so that we may do them?

 

Again, a twisting of what is said. Also, Paul seems to think that jesus is in the land of the dead from what I see (which is underwater...I know it was a "metaphor" used by god but Paul is wrong again because the wording is "across" or (in the KJV) "beyond" the sea and has absolutely nothing to do with "under" or the "deep" in any way.

 

Here's the proof of the word "beyond" from the KJV from Strong's:

region beyond or across, side

1. region across or beyond

2. side, opposite side

 

side 58, beyond 21, straight 3, passage 2, by 1, from 1, other 1,

against 1, over 1, quarter 1, Strong's synonym 1

 

As you can plainly see Paul is wrong as the word is NEVER used as he uses it. Not one single time in the entire language.

 

*8 But what does it say? The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart: that is, the word of faith of which we are the preachers:

14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may do it.

 

Here's Paul's final deception in this passage. Note that he conveniently cuts off the action portion of the original message. Where god himself states "so that you may do it" Paul replaces that with (in this translation) "that is, the word of faith of which we are the preachers." He totally usurps the portion of the verse where "GOD" enables man to achieve righteousness on his own and replaces it with he own customized doctrine essentially forcing the people to go through "faith" to get to god and not just that but through PAUL's very own version of this faith so trusting god isn't enough so Paul sets himself up as the pathway via his "teachings." Essentially this boils down to "self-empowerment" (the ORIGINAL message) versus "dependency" (the "better?" message). This is an absolute contradiction in ideology so someone isn't telling the truth here. If you recall that Paul also says that preachers should be "paid" (I don't recall the exact wording) where jesus in the gospels says they shouldn't. It's not too hard to see how Paul is setting up a position of power and an easy way to scam the uneducated for handouts. A motive that has and always be with us. I don't know if this was his only motive (probably not) but it is obvious.

 

So remember all the above when reading the NT authors in relation to the OT because they twist it around every chance they get, even *adding* and *subtracting* from the perfect word of god himself to accomplish their goals. Paul wasn't altruistic like we tend to think and neither were any of the others (in any of the religions).

[Darkside]

I've been geniunely praying to God a lot lately (and have prayed in the past) to give me a fresh touch of his holy spirit, or to give me peace or to give me a sence of his presence. So far zip.

 

 

Same here. When the cracks first began to appear in what I thought had been a solid foundation of faith, I begged God to make it all clear to me, to reveal himself and give me wisdom, etc. etc. When this was not forthcoming, I knew the game was up. What kind of father would leave his son in the dark?

[Darkside]

Hello.

 

Link Why Amy Marie and Scott Will NEVER Get It

 

Good-bye.

 

 

I don't know if it's fair to say they'll never get it. Actually Scott's posts sound exactly like stuff I used to write on internet forums in my Independent Fundamental Baptist King James Bible Believer days. I used to say the exact same things. Being a Christian means being born again and receiving the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit will show you the truth, and the Bible is truth, so of course all Christians believe that the Bible is inspired and inerrant. Actually, in my Christian days I would have thought that Scott probably wasn't a real Christian, because he said the flames of hell might be symbolic. Luke 16 and Revelation make it clear that it's real fire, with real smoke. If God didn't mean fire, he wouldn't have said fire! I also would have said that there's no such thing as an ex-Christian, using the same scriptures Scott quoted.

 

Scott is just robotically parroting what he's been taught, same as I used to. He's been brainwashed to the point of completely covering up his personality, to the point that he doesn't even think he has a religion. He'll say what he has is a relationship with Jesus... the religion is so deeply ingrained that he confuses it for his personality. But somewhere under there is his actual personality, and who knows, maybe someday it will come out. I know it's possible, because it happened to me.

 

Scott, thanks for the enlightening posts. Reading through them has made me realize what a dick I was.

[Ramen666]

Scott's one thick guy but here is a question? Let's go all the way back to the tornado thing. A lot of people prayed for help. reveal himself (me included) We were all Christians just like you. Why would God answer your prayers and not ours.....

 

I want to see how you can answer this:

 

You will say you are a True Christian and we wern't....no we were at time just like you. Put thought into this. Why would God just pick and choose.....? I am was worthy as you are...I am still human as you are and I was a Christian just like you. Why would God want some to suffer and leave Christianity...he foresaw we would leave. Not to be harsh to anyone but arn't we a waste on God's standards. We are already destined to hell...so why create us if we are going to be fried. If God foresaw our choice's long time ago.

 

 

God almighty God...yep thats how Scott see's God. I still want a reply to those cruel verses and contradictions soon. It's been a full day and no response yet, you are dodgeing a lot of people's questions. Is it maybe you want to question your beliefs? But you are so set on it , you won't because God will fry your ass if you don't believe. Take God out of the equation. What do you feel in your own heart what is right and wrong? Look at the verses is it morally acceptable of what God did in your own heart? Not what the Bible says what you say.

 

If God is suppose to be a friend why is it made for a one way relationship? God didn't do anything for me. Go outside if you live in a city and you will see the buildings, or look at Las Vegas at the stuture. Man made that , man made Rome and Egypt. Not God , man had advanced so much from when the Bible was written. Look at science..we have gone to the moon, cloned sheep, genetically altered pigs so they glow in the dark. This is all works of man not God. Look at everything around you will see God is slipping. He will eventually fade away ( Not in my lifetime) but it will happen as we advance.

[mwc]

Oh my God mwc...that was an awesome post!

 

I'm glad you liked it. It appears Scott missed it since just a few messages later he restates his view that "god is just" and his ignorance of his own religion by stating that Hitler is in hell (I wasn't aware that judgement had been passed yet). Oh well.

 

mwc

[Open_Minded]

Bump.... Bump..... Bump.....

 

(drumbing fingers on table, sighing....... Waiting.... waiting.... waiting..... looking at watch .... )

 

Yooooo Hoooooo ..... Scotty .... wheeeeerrrrrreeee arrrreee Youuuuu??????

 

Still waiting for a reply.

 

"I don't believe I will go to any Hell"????????

 

Now THAT's the height of arogance.....

 

You know what Scott.....

 

The men who plowed planes into the world trade center didn't believe they were going to hell either. Actually they thought they were going to paradise (heaven) and would have something like 1000 virgins as reward for their efforts in murdering 1000s of innocent people.

 

Actually they thought you were going to their particular version of hell because you didn't read their particular version of sacred scripture as 100% factual truth.

 

How is your arrogant thought process (that you have the WHOLE TRUTH and you are going to heaven but non-Christians aren't) any different from their thought processes?

[Open_Minded]

Mods and webmaster - I've a nomination to make.....

 

Would it be possible to list Scott's custom member title as:

 

"I don't believe I'm going to hell"?

 

See his following post....

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=213719

 

Open_Minded, I don't believe I will go to any Hell......

[EdwardAbbey]

This is has to deal with my testimony and I was told by a fundie God helps people. Sure "God" does. This thread is for all of you to post incidents where prayer didn't work. Show examples of events, crisis and even make a fundie question his believes. Show that there is no such thing.

 

How is it possible that you can think that prayer helps no one, when you don't know everyone? I have experienced God's power, even His power to Salvation, His love, and His mercy. One time, there was a tornado heading in our direction, toward our house. Me, my mom, and my sister prayed together that the tornado would be cast into the sea, without hurting anyone. We turned on the news, and the whether man described what happened to the tornado, and it is just what we prayed for. That is just one of the things I have witnessed the Lord do.

 

Sounds like nothing more than another one of those coincidences that are not only totally meaningless but pure superstiton at that. What about the thousands of other tornadoes that believers prayed about and nothing happened eh? Just more proof that not only does prayer fail everytime but there is no God answering any of them at all.

[OnceConvinced]

I do believe that aome people here were once Christians and had a strong faith in the Lord. I look at some of Christ's own followers who denied and left Him in His hour of need. I am very aware of my own weeknesses. When I was a younger in the faith I was certain I would never doubt, that I would always be strong, just like Peter said, "Lord these others may deny You, but not I! I will go to prision and even death, if need be."

 

"Pride goes before a fall." I think pride is our unseen enemy and is a very crafty one at that. Most times I'm not aware that I am entertaining pride. All I can say that if I had to go through some of the circumstances these folks went through who knows what I would do?

 

It's easy to say, "I would die for my faith," but if someone is pointing a gun at my head...and that's really the easy way out compared to what others have endured for Christ.

Thank you for your respect in acknowledging our sincerity and intergrety, and your honesty in your recognizing your own humanity in not judging us. That goes a long way with me.

 

And for me too. I've just spend a fair portion of the day (when I should have actually been working) on line debating with a Christian on another site. As soon as he found out I was an ex-christian, I could tell by his comments that he didn't believe that I had been a true Christian at all. I realised for the first time how other ex-christians feel when similar comments are directed at them.

 

Here is an example of Scott's mind in his way of thinking. Check out the picture below.

 

You come up with some great stuff some times. Very creative.

[Abiyoyo]

The serpent from the garden doesn't make a single appearance outside Genesis. Heck, even in other mythologies, the Trickster (raven, fox, Loki, whatever) makes multiple appearances. The Eden garden snake doesn't.

 

Thats true. Even though there are Biblical texts that try to relate the serpent of the garden to the serpent, the devil. It isnt so. The root word for the serpent in genesis is different from the one used in latter text.

 

Moses wrote the story, and actually used the word for a snake. Latter, the word that referred to the devil was used because of the storyline based around the snake in Genesis. make sense?

 

Raven is right though. The dragon is the one, or serpent of old.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

The men who plowed planes into the world trade center didn't believe they were going to hell either. Actually they thought they were going to paradise (heaven) and would have something like 1000 virgins as reward for their efforts in murdering 1000s of innocent people.

 

Actually they thought you were going to their particular version of hell because you didn't read their particular version of sacred scripture as 100% factual truth.

 

 

 

Actually, actually, open minded. Your right and wrong. Yes, those men thought they were going to heaven. According to their faith, they didnt. The whole killing of innocent people messed that up for them. They forgot to read that part in the Quaran.

 

As far as there Hell. They dont think you are going to Hell based on if you read there scripture; yet they do not believe in the trinity. Jesus was God sent to them( same as Muhammed), yet not God in man. They even consider Jesus very important, yet Muhammed was the seal of the prophets, or thier ultimate guide/messanger. They are on similar grounds as the Jews with the whole prophetic stance. Believing that jesus was God is considered blasphemy to them.