Prayer Helps No One

[Kuroikaze]

 

#3. The snake was Satan. It makes that clear in the book of Revelation.

 

 

Well since the Jews didn't have a concept of Satan until after they returned from Babylonain exile (they stole the concepts of satan and of hell from the Babylonains), and the story orginated from oral traditions dating at least several hundred years before the exile I very much doubt the the orginal authors of the story had satan in mind.

[Scott]

Yes, Raven, Satan does make many appearences. He is called the serpent of old in Revelation chapter 12, which indicates he was the serpant from the Garden of Eden.

 

Kuroikaze, even if the human author didn't have Satan in mind, {which I believe he did} John the Revelator made it clear that he is the "serpent of old, called the devil and Satan".

 

The book of Revelation is mostly about future events, but it also takes a look at the past.

[roman]

It's difficult to understand why or how you can believe that the author(s) of that "book" made anything clear.

[Kuroikaze]

Kuroikaze, even if the human author didn't have Satan in mind, {which I believe he did} John the Revelator made it clear that he is the "serpent of old, called the devil and Satan".

 

 

believe...there is that word again. You can believe whatever you want but its what can be proven that matters. How closely have you studied these passages? I've studied the history, and showed you quite clearly why the early writers could not have been talking about Satan. If you know enough about history to offer a competing theory to how the Jews developed the idea of Satan, by all means, present it. Otherwise your choosing to be ignorant. If your only taking the word of your pastor then your not thinking for yourself...which, to me, is the worst possible "sin"

 

saying the serpent reference in revelation is a reference to the genesis story is a stretch at best, I, at least, am not convinced of the connection. Anyway the NT is full of reactionary interpretations...Paul himself is known for misquoting the old testament in order to prove his pet theological points...so even if the writer of revelation was talking about the serpent in the garden all it means is that he was good at borrowing illiteration to make a point.

[white_raven23]

Yes, Raven, Satan does make many appearences. He is called the serpent of old in Revelation chapter 12, which indicates he was the serpant from the Garden of Eden.

 

No it doesn't. Serpent of old is a poetic adjective describing the dragon within the same verse in Revelations.

 

Look..... SERPENT>>>>>OF>>>>>OLD.

 

There is nothing whatsoever in those three words that = the talking serpent from the garden of Eden.

 

It is a stretch of an assumption. Just because Christianity embraces it, doesn't make it true. The bible doesn't even support the assertion.

[garrisonjj]

#1. Yes, we are cursed, but with a way out.

 

#2. God doesn't want us to go to Hell. He wants to rescue us from it. Yes, that's a pretty good Friend.

 

#3. The snake was Satan. It makes that clear in the book of Revelation.

 

Adam and Eve's disobiedance...how could they fail to disobey? They hadn't any knowledge of good or evil yet? It's like speaking quantum mechanics to a 2 year old. They havent a clue and niether did Adam and Eve.

 

They wanted to be like God. That is actually the same thing Satan wanted to be. They could have resisted the serpant out of their love for God.

 

No they couldn't! God knew what they would do (assuming he/it exists) It was all a fuckin set up which disproves free will nonsense. This is such a fuckin fairytale that any rational person,after reading revelation would laugh at religion for the really bad tale it is!

[Scott]

Kuroikaze, The Jews in the NT mention and talk about Satan alot. And in the OT, Lucifer {Satan's name before the fall} was mentioned in Isaiah 14:12. He's also mentioned in other places in the OT, and I'll look it up in a bit. Now, where does Paul misquote the OT?

 

Raven, it is still my understanding that John is saying that Satan is the serpent from the Garden.

 

#1. Yes, we are cursed, but with a way out.

 

#2. God doesn't want us to go to Hell. He wants to rescue us from it. Yes, that's a pretty good Friend.

 

#3. The snake was Satan. It makes that clear in the book of Revelation.

 

Adam and Eve's disobiedance...how could they fail to disobey? They hadn't any knowledge of good or evil yet? It's like speaking quantum mechanics to a 2 year old. They havent a clue and niether did Adam and Eve.

 

They wanted to be like God. That is actually the same thing Satan wanted to be. They could have resisted the serpant out of their love for God.

 

No they couldn't! God knew what they would do (assuming he/it exists) It was all a fuckin set up which disproves free will nonsense. This is such a fuckin fairytale that any rational person,after reading revelation would laugh at religion for the really bad tale it is!

 

You are severely mistaken.

[Legion]

Buddha has said, "If any man should say that one thing is disconnected from another, he is mistaken."

 

Man is disconnected from God.

[roman]

Kuroikaze, The Jews in the NT mention and talk about Satan alot. And in the OT, Lucifer {Satan's name before the fall} was mentioned in Isaiah 14:12. He's also mentioned in other places in the OT, and I'll look it up in a bit. Now, where does Paul misquote the OT?

 

Raven, it is still my understanding that John is saying that Satan is the serpent from the Garden.

 

#1. Yes, we are cursed, but with a way out.

 

#2. God doesn't want us to go to Hell. He wants to rescue us from it. Yes, that's a pretty good Friend.

 

#3. The snake was Satan. It makes that clear in the book of Revelation.

 

Adam and Eve's disobiedance...how could they fail to disobey? They hadn't any knowledge of good or evil yet? It's like speaking quantum mechanics to a 2 year old. They havent a clue and niether did Adam and Eve.

 

They wanted to be like God. That is actually the same thing Satan wanted to be. They could have resisted the serpant out of their love for God.

 

No they couldn't! God knew what they would do (assuming he/it exists) It was all a fuckin set up which disproves free will nonsense. This is such a fuckin fairytale that any rational person,after reading revelation would laugh at religion for the really bad tale it is!

 

You are severely mistaken.

 

It does not follow that he is mistaken because he disagrees with you. You have not one shred of proof or evidence for your beliefs, so perhaps somebody else is not only mistaken, but severely something else as well.

[All Gods Fail]

Holy shit, what a brew-ha-ha! The fundies have teamed up and are using a double-denial strategy, while the Ex-c's are taking any shot the turtle-backs will give them. It's like a rumble on Monster Island!

 

Scott is dodging and weaving like a welter-weight on crystal meth - not even the mighty Antlerman can get a direct response from all the spin!

 

Whew! Scott is tiring me out just listening to him. He's just banging out platitudes and party lines without even pausing, let alone thinking. A whirling dervish of denial!

 

Go, Scotty! You are well on your way to winning the award for Most Willfully Ignorant Fundie Ever!

[Scott]

Ignorant? You don't even believe in God!

[Guest JP]

Some people here do believe in God. Just not your God. Many people of different/no religions have spiritual experiences.

 

Scott, let me ask you this...let's say God exists. Is there any way to prove that it's the Christian one?

[Vigile]

Anyway, I will study those contradictions you posted.

who else thinks he won't

 

Why wouldn't I? I'm confident in my Faith. I'm not afraid that I will be proven wrong. Have no doubts that I will study them.

 

I have confidence in your faith to. I'm confident you will study these contradictions, run to your pastor and get the appropriate apology that protects your silly little position. It's hilarious how you are so boldy confident in your proclimations that you shun objectivity. You have got to be one of the dumber xians that we've had here in a while. Shiva? Is this you doing another parody?

 

Ignorant? You don't even believe in God!

 

Great non-sequitur.

 

Stupid? I had Cheerios for breakfast!

 

a d*ck? .

 

What a d*mb*ss. Interesting how every little thing in your world is a sin. Even spelling out the word dick. I'd pity you if you weren't such a dumb shit.

[Thackerie]

... I don't have blind faith. Blind faith is believing whatever I'm told. I check everything according to the Scriptures. ...

 

 

[nick5]

Ignorant? You don't even believe in God!

 

Exactly, and THIS makes us at least a bit less ignorant than you, since it means we are aware that the bible is nothing but made up stories, and YOU aren't. Therefore YOU are ignorant, because we have some info you don't have.

 

 

Oh and you're a dick.

[Open_Minded]

First of all, if I have been condescending or arrogant, please point it out to me. I don't claim to be perfect, and I know I have flaws. Pride is one of them, and I have been working on it.

 

Well - beyond the fact that you assume to know whether all these ex-Christians were ever really TRUE Christians or not.... let's review the following...

 

Open_Minded, I don't believe I will go to any Hell. I am a Christian because it became evident to me that God is with me, because He gave me perfect peace in the midst of distress. Now, people sometimes say "You just think you're one of the chosen ones" or something like that. It's not that at all. I'm nothing special in that God favors me above someone else. That's bull. Salvation is open to everyone. I believe God will give peace to all those who call upon Him and believe in the name of His Son.

 

"I don't believe I will go to any Hell"????????

 

Now THAT's the height of arogance.....

 

You know what Scott.....

 

The men who plowed planes into the world trade center didn't believe they were going to hell either. Actually they thought they were going to paradise (heaven) and would have something like 1000 virgins as reward for their efforts in murdering 1000s of innocent people.

 

Actually they thought you were going to their particular version of hell because you didn't read their particular version of sacred scripture as 100% factual truth.

 

How is your arrogant thought process (that you have the WHOLE TRUTH and you are going to heaven but non-Christians aren't) any different from their thought processes?

[Antlerman]

I do believe in God and I believe His Word. Why would my mind or heart say otherwise? Sometimes I do have doubts. Alot less that I used to, but they still come. I just have faith the Lord will deliver me from those doubts.

Scott, you sound much like me when I was a young, enthusiastic believer. I was taught how doubts were the enemy of faith and that Satan was trying to destroy my faith and how I should pray to drive him out. (BTW, that's a total brainwashing technique to make someone fearful of questioning doctrines and beliefs. It's practiced in every cult that exists to keep members in the fold). So I also prayed that way, but then I was “called” to go to Bible college and study to “show myself approved” as I prepared for my life as a minister.

 

I joke now, along with everyone else here that the surest way to become an atheist is to study the Bible. Those doubts only grew in intensity the more I became aware of. I graduated top of my class, and was a matter of months away from becoming an associate pastor when I had to face those doubts head on. I could not in good conscience use my gifts and my efforts to persuade people to dedicate their lives to beliefs I found to be “questionable” in many critical aspects. So in my sincere, heartfelt faith before God I dedicated myself to the task of addressing those concerns head on, in the hopes that doing so would make me stronger in my faith or to discover what the truth was. In either case it was in an effort of being sincere in my heart before God, myself, and my fellow human beings.

 

I would say with you that I was without hesitation “delivered from those doubts”. My spirit is now free from the bondage of theology.

 

The reason our righteousness is like filthy rag is because of sin. It's power is so strong over our good works that it amounts to nothing.

You ask above why your heart would say otherwise? When you look at all the sincere love in others throughout the world, then realize God will reward them with damnation for their goodness because the magic invocation of blood sprinkling and verbal incantations weren’t spoken properly over them, doesn’t that sicken you heart? Not for their fate, I’m saying, but that God is so legalistically conditional about his love?

 

Would you throw your child into a furnace, or even out on the street to eat from dumpsters because he wasn't perfect? You created him, you are responsible for him. Oddly enough, despite the amazingly coincidental human-like emotions God was given by the human beings who wrote the Bible, that they would make him so heartless on this one issue? It doesn’t make a lot of sense, outside of seeing that “face” of God as one to keep people under the control of the priesthood through the threat of consequences for deviating from their governance of them.

 

Only through the shed blood of Jesus can we be made righteous in God's eyes, so our works will matter too. Which brings us to the third question of blood. Someone needs to die for the sins of the world because the wages of sin are death. Jesus chose to do that for us.

I really like how Kuroikaze answers this:

And to my mind blood sacrifices are the sickest and most cruel, unjust thing imaginable. To say that god is somehow pleased by burnt animal entrails spread on an altar is both horrifying and silly to me at the same time. Blood sacrifices were born into cultures that believed that the soul or life force was contained in the blood and by killing something else you could appease god....Ancient Judaism was no better than any other religion and so I reject the concept of substitutionary grace to the very root.

 

You can repeat this till your blue in the face, but I will no longer accept the idea that god somehow, needs/requires a blood sacrifice to forgive sin.

It just simply doesn't make sense to tie the hands of the suposed all powerful creator of the universe with some boneheaded bronze age blood letting ritural.

It is very Bronze Age in its views. Think about it, the Almighty God requires blood sacrifice? Think volcano god and tossing virgins in to quite Him, or the Mayan’s slaying children to the Corn God to bring crops through the sacrifice of the valuable life of a child. It’s pretty ridiculous really.

 

Now, I know you don't need me to tell me that. You were once a Christian so I assume you've heard it before. So as I am assmuming that you've heard that before {though not certain} why do you ask me?

 

The reason I’m asking you is because of this question. How would you feel about slitting the throat of a child on an altar to make the corn grown in the spring? Knowing what you know about how these sorts of actions have zero affect on the events of nature, this would seem a rather primitive and barbaric mindset to you, wouldn’t it?

 

Now step back for a minute from all the associated imagery in you mind about Jesus smiling on a little child; carrying a lost lamb on his shoulder; the bright sunny rays of God’s shekinah glory streaming down from heaven on majestic mountains; and imagine putting a little 10 year old boy on an altar with the priests knife to his throat, add the beating of drums to drown out the screams of his mother, then draw that knife over his throat, shedding his blood and ending his life in order to satisfy the demands of a god to obtain his favor.

 

That is the Gospel story according to the literalist.

 

Is that a God that appeals to your sensibilities in this day and age? How do you differenciate that from the Mayan culutre?

 

 

 

Ignorant? You don't even believe in God!

P.S. Please be careful in your comments. This would apply to me also, and I am far from ignorant about these things.

[Checkmate]

Hello.

 

Link Why Amy Marie and Scott Will NEVER Get It

 

Good-bye.

[Kuroikaze]

Kuroikaze, The Jews in the NT mention and talk about Satan alot. And in the OT, Lucifer {Satan's name before the fall} was mentioned in Isaiah 14:12. He's also mentioned in other places in the OT, and I'll look it up in a bit. Now, where does Paul misquote the OT?

 

 

lol, I was waiting for you to mention Isaiah 14:12...this passage is totally misunderstood. read the whole passage to get the context. Isaiah is not refering to satan at all here but the king of babyolon.

 

Lucifer is NOT the name of satan, its a Latin word that means Moring star. Unfortunatly when they translated the Latin Vulgate from the Septuigent (greek translation of the OT) they mistranlsated this passage, and thus a false story developed that this passage is talking about satan...read it again without a-prioi assumptions and you'll see that Isaiah was talking about the king of babylon, he was predicting his fall from power.

 

I've looked at this issue extensively and the only passage in the OT were satan is mentioned is the book of Daniel, which of course wasn't written until about 200 B.C.E.

 

I told you I've studied this stuff

[Kuroikaze]

Don't think Paul ever misquoted the OT? Compare Romans 10:8 with Deuteronomy 30:14 Paul leaves off the last part of the sentence "that thou may do it" because it doesn't fit his theology of totally sinfulness. The Jews didn't believe the law was unattainable, but COULD if fact be followed.

 

How about Romans 9:33 and Isaiah 28:16? Compare those too.

 

Here is a quote from Paul in acts in 20:35 He quotes Jesus as saying something that doesn't appear anywhere in the canonical gospels...Perhaps Paul was quoting a non-canonical source, but then that would mean that Paul didn't agree with the list of gospels that got canonized

 

I used to think the bible was consistant until I started doing comparison studies of quoted passages.

 

There are plenty of non-pauline books in the NT that have misquotes of the OT in them as well, just a challenge for you, everytime you read a passege in the NT that seems to be quoting the OT, go check the OT passage and see if it matches...you will be supprised

[mwc]

Yes, Raven, Satan does make many appearences. He is called the serpent of old in Revelation chapter 12, which indicates he was the serpant from the Garden of Eden.

 

Kuroikaze, even if the human author didn't have Satan in mind, {which I believe he did} John the Revelator made it clear that he is the "serpent of old, called the devil and Satan".

Actually, the most likely candidate that I have found for the "serpent of old" is Leviathan. I didn't bother to find the thread but we had a discussion about this in the General theologic issues forum awhile back. I think the author of Rev.John is trying to tie a number of theological threads together and doesn't quite pull it off.

 

However, if you wish to take a look at non-canonical books like the Life of Adam and Eve you can read where there was a growing belief that the snake was a tool of Satan but not Satan himself. In none of the writings that I have read is the snake equated with Satan...ever. The snake is just a snake.

 

The book of Revelation is mostly about future events, but it also takes a look at the past.

You're going to have to show me an example of where the book takes a look at the past. Other than where people try to use the whole "war in heaven" thing as a past event to place Satan in the garden there is no history that I am aware of in the book. Now, keep in mind, the reason for this is because...wait for it...this is all because it's a future event. The war in heaven did not happen before the whole garden scene. That's apologetics in action.

 

mwc

[NotBlinded]

Tell me, and this question is open to anyone who wants to answer, what would your ideal God be like? Would He be loving, Holy, Just? Just tell me, what would a perfect God be like to you?

Scott...this is where you err. How do you describe "something" that is not a thing? You can't. The minute you try to describe God, you have reduced this 'Whatever' into a something. Let what can't be known exist as it is. We don't have to 'know' it...it's impossible. That is why metaphors and symbolic imagery is used when describing God. They are words that are supposed to inspire a sense, or feeling, in the reader. When you take the words literally, you are missing the understanding.

 

I'll give you an example...what does the word "God" bring into your mind? All the images that the bible created for you? Those images are not God. When a Hindu says God, their minds are filled with all the images of their religion. When a Muslim says God they see what they have been told. But, there are many people that do not mistake the word God and all its concepts for God itself.

 

The surest way to test to see if the word God has lost it's no-meaningness is this...I can claim that God is my God and you can claim that God is your God and so on forever because everyone has there own idea of what God is.

 

Now, replace the word God with Infinity and try to lay claim to it. Can I say, my Infinity? Can you say, your Infinity? Makes no sense does it? The word God has lost it's power to be infine therefore reducing God itself into something that is finite.

 

Just think on that for awhile.

[NotBlinded]

The Bible teaches that in the afterlife, God will seperate those from Himself who wanted nothing to do with Him in this life. Now, whether the fires of Hell are literal or symbolic, why would God accept those who reject Him? If God doesn't send people away from Him, would He still be considered just? Would you like to see Hitler, Osama Binladan, or the 9/11 hiejackers in Heaven? Tell me, and this question is open to anyone who wants to answer, what would your ideal God be like? Would He be loving, Holy, Just? Just tell me, what would a perfect God be like to you?

I'm going to play your little game Scott (so for the sake of the game we'll assume your fantasy world and players all exist).

 

Here's the answer. Yes. I would like to see Hitler and Osama and all the rest in heaven. What, you say? Those monsters. Yep, those monsters. Satan and pals too. Work with me here. We're all standing before god. It's Hitler's "turn" to be judged and up he goes. His crimes are read and they are long and horrible. He turns to defend himself and looks into the face of *your* loving jesus. He sees in those eyes all the attrocities that he could never see in himself while alive and cries out "I get it now!" So what does *your* god to do? Justice or mercy?

 

Let's continue. God finishes his judgement. He separates the sheep from the goats. The saved from the damned. He's about to cast all the goats into the eternal damnation when he suddenly declares "Even though you all deserve damnation I forgive you. Come into my kingdom." Is this justice or mercy?

 

Which is more important to *YOU*, Scott because that is really what this scenerio is all about. It's not about god or jesus it is about *YOU*. Both of the above scenerios must be offensive to you on some level because it is *YOU* that is demanding the so-called justice. You have said over and over that god can do as he pleases but it's always in the judgemental way. It's never in the merciful way. This reveals who you are more than who god is Scott. You simply project your idealized traits onto your god. Of course you will accept god's decision but we both know that's not what this is all about. Your god will always choose justice, your concept of justice, over mercy every single time.

 

mwc

Oh my God mwc...that was an awesome post!

[NotBlinded]

Well, if it's crap logic, tell those I have talked to, not me. When I said believe, I actually mean believe. I don't confuse the two. For instance, my sister believes in God, but she doesn't worship Him. Some people do not believe in {not to be confused with worship} God because they don't want to believe in a God they believe to be evil. Which, I guess, it's impossible for God to be evil, since "evil" is against His nature in the first place.

How can you possibly know the nature of God? The bible? If you can judge God's nature by the bible, then people that don't believe can also judge the nature of God in the bible as evil. When you lay claim to have knowledge of what God's nature is, you are creating a God in the image of humans...just like the biblical writers did. You know why? Being human is all we can possibly know! So, when you ascribe a certain nature to God, guess what???? Those traits are going to be human traits. God is outside of human understanding, so please stop taking the words of a myth and turning them into God.

[Darkside]

Scott you have to be joking right? A tornado? Why not the people in Hurricane Katrina?

 

 

Duh, because the people in New Orleans were wicked sinners in the hands of an angry God and Scott is an adopted son of the Most High.