Is Hell Fair?

[Checkmate]

Totally off topic...but how do i change the yellow symbol under my avatar? And the saying above it? I've looked, but I can't figure it out anywhere.....

Sithprincess, since you answered "Just one" to the Any Gods? question, the system has pegged you as "Christian". If you change your answer to something NOT identified as blatantly "Christian", and if you PM a moderator, then your symbol will be changed. (Either to "Ex-Christian" or "Atheist", depending on what you prefer.)

 

As far as the saying above the symbol? That changes automatically with the number of posts you make. Newbies start out as "questioners" and it changes from there. When you hit the magic number of 250 (or is it 500?) posts, then you can write your own slogan if you so desire.

 

Enjoy.

[sithprincess]

Totally off topic...but how do i change the yellow symbol under my avatar? And the saying above it? I've looked, but I can't figure it out anywhere.....

Sithprincess, since you answered "Just one" to the Any Gods? question, the system has pegged you as "Christian". If you change your answer to something NOT identified as blatantly "Christian", and if you PM a moderator, then your symbol will be changed. (Either to "Ex-Christian" or "Atheist", depending on what you prefer.)

 

As far as the saying above the symbol? That changes automatically with the number of posts you make. Newbies start out as "questioners" and it changes from there. When you hit the magic number of 250 (or is it 500?) posts, then you can write your own slogan if you so desire.

 

Enjoy.

 

Thank you Mr. Grinch. You're not such a mean one...

 

Okay...I kinda thought the saying above the symbol was automatic, but then I saw personalised ones and wondered... Think I got everything figured out now...

[Ramen666]

MY LAST STAND AGAINST SCOTT:

 

 

 

Can Christians sleep and night happy when they know people around them are going to be burned in hell? Yes they try to save...then Christians eventually find the truth about religion while they are still going on about there life. They come here and bug the hell out off us. Scott do you understand more people are going to hell than their was people in the holocaust. BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HELL. Not just people on Earth today but HELL OF A LOAD OF PEOPLE FROM EVEN BEFORE THE BIBLE. Don't you feel anything just saying " Oh I am sad for them but I am saved so I am ok." Christianity is literally saving YOURSELF. You choose Christianity BECAUSE OF YOU!

 

Yeah Scott I will tell you a little more about myself how I used to go to church. I was in AWANA ( a bible club) were we memorized the good verses. Being told God was good and whatnot. I was also in the kids choir at one time in my life. I was once a Christian just like you and thought God really loved people. But he no more loves people than Hitler loving Nazis and hating Jews. WHY he CHOOSES WHO GOES TO HEAVEN. It is not the other way around if God is all knowing.

 

Then Scott comes accross " I agree with God 100% on burning people in hell." Just because he is God and I compare he to a political leader. Just because your Christian you can say at least I don't agree with God on that. WHY DON'T YOU? Because THOU SHALL NOT QUESTION, THOU SHALL DOUBT. Questioning leads to doubt, doubt leads eventually to looking at religion as a whole ( Not just Christianity) and seeing all of it as one.

 

Look at religion as a whole ( for once). Christianity says believe in God ( or Jesus) and you will go to heaven. That's plain and clear we can agree it says that. But look at that as a statement not as a verse.

 

So right now here is a partial list who is not going to heaven:

 

Buddahist

 

Muslims

 

Bábism

 

any ancient native american religions

 

people that never heard of God

 

Hinduism

 

Us nonbelievers (first ones to hit the pan)

 

Catholics ( Because Christians say Catholics are wrong)

 

Jews ( I don't why...but they believe in God but not Jesus so is it hell for them)

 

Gays (www.godhatesfags.com)

 

Anyone that disagrees with Scotts Truth

 

Greeks

 

Romans ( of course THEY KILLED JESUS

 

anyone who READS HARRY POTTER

 

Aztecs

 

Mayans

 

ALL AFRICAN RELGIONS BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THE BIBLE

Akamba mythology

Akan mythology

Ashanti mythology

Bambuti mythology

Bushongo mythology

Dahomey mythology

Dinka mythology

Efik mythology

Igbo mythology

Isoko mythology

Khoikhoi mythology

Lotuko mythology

Lozi mythology

Lugbara mythology

Masai mythology

Pygmy mythology

Tumbuka mythology

Yoruba mythology

Zulu mythology

 

Anyone who doesn't listen to Focus on the Family

 

Scientists who believe in evolution

Do you understand some of these religons depend on where you would of been born? Not EVERYONE IS CHRISTIAN. You just are "lucky" to learn the truth . Do you see a little problem with that. That list can be a whole lot bigger but I am trying to break that thick scull and listen for once. Relgion I am not no major in it or anything but by observation it is more of a cultural thing. Why it still exsists in the U.S. is because of so many cultures. How do you know your God is the true God? Wait I know it is the Bible written by men. Why ignore mormons, muslims, buddahist old ancient Gods? BECAUSE Christianity just still exsists because of Great Britian bringiing it over here and trying to convert the Native americans. You have to see at least there has to be a flaw in relgion. Even if you avoiding it. There has to be some fault in religion, because there are too many.

WHY DO YOU THINK YOU ARE RIGHT? Because you were TOLD Christianity was right. I was in the same boat you once were and you have been ignoreing my posts. My last post here was verses of god ORDERING killings. WHAT DID YOU DO BUT IGNORE IT. ITS IN YOUR BIBLE! But you choose to ignore us because you don't want the cage around you rattled. You want to have the closed mind and not listen to anyone. ( I use to be so much like you but hell I changed,) Around my house there is a total of 6 churches. SIX! I don't do anything but I think to myself. 6 Churches, 6 Different denomenations, 6 different versions of God. All claim they are the truth and the other isn't. DO YOU SEE A PROBLEM WITH THAT SCOTT. My former church non denomenational " WE ARE THE TRUTH. ALL THOSE OTHER CHURCHES ARE WRONG AND WARPING GOD" My own church did the same damn thing. They make God exactly how I talk about him. " Believe or perish in hell." Doesn't matter if your good torcher for all eternity if you believe in God," THAT IS NOT FREE WILL THAT IS HOLDING A GUN TO YOUR HEAD " BELIEVE ME OR DIE.

 

Scott will say its all out of love. Once your in hell, GOD REALLY WON'T GIVE A SHIT! Another thing Heaven is suppose to have streets of gold. Last time I checked gold is on the periodic table on earth. How can you have non exsisting gold floating in the sky. WAIT I BET A LEPRACAUN IS UP THERE TO WITH A POT OF GOLD. What makes your version of God right compared to somone else. Wait I know YOUR PASTOR TOLD YOU HIS INTERPRETATION. You ignore us because your a weak person who all he does is listen for God. One day Scott GOD WILL NOT BE THERE FOR YOU. Then you will see life better. I have never been happier in my life since I left Christianity. It is my most best times ever. You want to drag it down and say "HOW ARE YOU HAPPY?" Because we have gone through an enlightment. A apple falls and you will say " God willed it" ITS GRAVITY NOT GOD NOT DAMN FUCKING GOD.

 

I want a response to my last few posts and this. DON'T ABANDON MY QUESTIONS LIKE YOU HAVE BEEN.

[sithprincess]

OMG...that damn godhatesfags sites is the most sickening thing I've ever seen...!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Now THAT pisses me the hell off!

[sithprincess]

And Ramen, I noticed that he didn't have much to say about those verses either, except for the bit about "The OT shows that god thought these sins deserved death". Ah, how he tapdances around the issue that GOD ORDERED MURDER. You know, there's really not anyway he can attempt to excuse a loving god for that behaviour though, is there?

 

For the longest time, I thought that all those OT killings and such were just things done at the time by the people, and that god himself did not institute them. And then I looked at some of those verses, and lo and behold, before many of them were words to this effect: "And God said". IF the Christian god were the real god, really, at this point I would say "No, thanks. I'll go to the BBQ with the bad bad people like Ghandi".

[Ramen666]

sithprincess here is a site you should look at:

 

www.evilbible.com

 

It is more informative than I am ,however go look at " Rape in the Bible" " God Lied" " Murder in the Bible.-the full list" Just check that stuff out all of it is right out of the Bible.

 

Be in for a shock at some of the stuff it says in the Bible. Heck that website completed my deconversion to athesist. So I highly recomend it.

 

And for Scott he has an excuse for everything, he avoids verses right at him and logic and reason. He will say " It's out of the lawds love and they deserved it."

[mwc]

Ramen, isn't Scott back on mod approval? If so, he won't be answering as quickly (or at all if he doesn't feel like playing anymore).

 

I noticed that you told Scott that he was a lot like you (and I went through this fundie phase too like most here) and I look at you and see that you remind me a bit of me last year when I first came on board. Maybe there's hope for everyone, eh? It took going into the ministry to cause my brother to take up computers. He still believes in jesus but his theology course led him to believe that xians locked "god" into a box to control the masses and now he's more like Open Minded or Amanda (or Antlerman but with jesus). So keep studying Scott.

 

Now, Scott and others, have tried to say that we were never really xians. That all these people are fakes (like Catholics and, as in Ramen's message, those 6 denominations just around his house that all finger point) but I came across these verses:

 

Luke

9:49

And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

 

9:50

And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

So jesus says if you cast out demons in his name then you're on his team...or "we're all one big happy family."

 

But (ones everyone knows):

Matthew

7:22

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

 

7:23

And then will I profess unto them *, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I guess it's not so happy after all. Looks like jesus will use you but then toss you aside in the end. The ends justify the means.

 

How can jesus be such a dick about it? It's pretty clear to see:

John

[Jesus teaches everyone the pagan concept of eating his flesh]

6:60

Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

6:61

When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

6:62

What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

6:63

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

6:64

But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

6:65

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

6:66

From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

After jesus tries to get Jews to do a major pagan thing and symbolically eat his flesh and blood (and big part of some mystery religions of the day...to ingest your god-man) the disciples took off. So he then says, basically, that only an "elect" group will be called to him and everyone is are posers.

 

So which is it? Is jesus for everyone? It doesn't appear to be that way. It starts out like he wants everyone in his club and simply invoking his name gives you magically powers (even before the spirit comes) but then in other books, even though you have magical powers you still get tossed in hell and are considered "betrayers." The father chooses and gives to jesus those that he chooses. This seems to be the underlying theme.

 

mwc

[♦ ficino ♦]

The father chooses and gives to jesus those that he chooses. This seems to be the underlying theme.

 

 

 

Exactly, that's what I was trying to point out to Scott from Romans, that the "wicked" are already predestined. He didn't refute it, just repeated that God's love is unconditional - precisely what these texts disprove. Or else they prove that "love" has no meaning in the bible.

[mwc]

Yeah, I know.

 

Paul, the rest of the epistles and Revelation teaches the elect pretty strongly.

 

Then we have jesus. He's for the Jews. Then he's for "the world." So when you show the whole concept of the elect you get the usual John 3:16 crap. Well, here's jesus showing that all xians are "true" xians in Luke but then in Matthew he's not so sure (casting out of demons in jesus names but a contradictory end result..."one big happy family" vs. "go to hell faker"). Lastly, in order to counter John 3:16 I used John against itself to support the concept of the elect from jesus' own mouth.

 

mwc

[NotBlinded]

Dang it...I don't wanna ask mwc, but I have to.

 

Isn't Matthew 7 talking about the ones that cast out devils by the means of being false prophets? What they do appears to bring forth good, but as they go on it seems that what is inside this person doing these things will eventually be their downfall.

 

It just seems to me that it is more about intent and pretending to do good things just to get recognized, or as a not-so-true Christian would see it, to do things for the reward (heavenly) only.

 

Since I understand the kingdom of heaven as being available to living people, it would seem to me that Jesus is talking about everyday life situtations. I don't see much inner peace in giving or doing something for someone only to expect something in return.

 

To me the difference is one of this: when doing (or giving) and wanting something in return. This goes along with the Christian that does good things for their heavenly reward.

 

To this: when doing these things just for the sake of the act itself...or the spirit of the act. This goes with the person (it doesn't matter if they're Christians or not) that just does good things just for the spirit of doing it. This is why, IMO, Jesus said in Luke, "Forbid him not."

 

Like some of us here say...Ex-christians are way more Christ-like than the Christians that Jesus can be understood today as speaking against. They are the false prophets.

 

And...the reference you posted from John follows in this same spirit. Jesus knew, by the things his betrayers did and the way they acted, or their spirit, who would betray him. It wasn't by magic, he was just a good judge of character. I don't think this is some sort of supernatural spirit that descends on people, it is just an understanding of what he was teaching (someone else could teach this that understood it) that would cause people, naturally, to live with the correct spirit of giving or doing. The same spirit that which God is (according to Jesus). And, when your inner spirit is aligned in this manner, it is aligned with God. Then you will know the kingdom of heaven (according to my understanding of the scripture). He knew Judas by his fruits. Judas didn't have this understanding that he spoke about. He may have followed him like many Christians today do. They want the reward.

 

Maybe???

 

Please don't see this as preaching to you...I just wanted to offer another opinion. I am hoping that many fundamentalist Christians can at least achieve this middle ground between complete acceptance of the supernatural nonsense and some supernatural realm where heaven dwells and complete and total rejection of all of the teachings their belief system has to offer. Because if they can reach this understanding, their lives could improve and bring them a greater understanding of how to live now. Of course, there is nothing wrong with totally rejecting it because these teachings can be found elsewhere and it is almost self-evident that giving just for the spirit of giving is its own reward. But, total rejection is difficult for many, so I just want to offer a way to where they don't have to do that.

 

I hope I offered enough reasoning that this won't be seen as the fallacy of middle gound. (I just saw this fallacy and thought I may have commited it! )

[mwc]

Oh, now you've done it...challenge my perfect interpretations.

 

Dang it...I don't wanna ask mwc, but I have to.

 

Isn't Matthew 7 talking about the ones that cast out devils by the means of being false prophets? What they do appears to bring forth good, but as they go on it seems that what is inside this person doing these things will eventually be their downfall.

 

It just seems to me that it is more about intent and pretending to do good things just to get recognized, or as a not-so-true Christian would see it, to do things for the reward (heavenly) only.

 

Since I understand the kingdom of heaven as being available to living people, it would seem to me that Jesus is talking about everyday life situtations. I don't see much inner peace in giving or doing something for someone only to expect something in return.

 

To me the difference is one of this: when doing (or giving) and wanting something in return. This goes along with the Christian that does good things for their heavenly reward.

 

To this: when doing these things just for the sake of the act itself...or the spirit of the act. This goes with the person (it doesn't matter if they're Christians or not) that just does good things just for the spirit of doing it. This is why, IMO, Jesus said in Luke, "Forbid him not."

Right, he is supposed to be speaking against "false" prophets or followers in Matthew. The point being that the same terminology is used in Luke. A person is casting out demons in his name. It obviously works. In one instance he states this is a good thing and those who aren't against us are with us. So people who invoke jesus' name to work magic, even though they are specifically "in the group" are still considered by jesus to be with them.

 

But not so in Matthew. That author has a different take. Sure you can work miracles in jesus name but you will be shown to be a fraud when the big day comes. This also begs the question of how can you invoke jesus' name to perform the task but not his power? The power would have to come from elsewhere. When jesus was accused of being Satan to cast out demons he said that it didn't work that way. Satan doesn't cast out Satan (Scott and I had a nice little go around about that). So god must be casting out these demons in jesus name. So I can't see how you could have the support of god/jesus and still not be considered worthy at the same time. The sign of a true believer is that they can perform signs and wonders, is it not? This seems to support Luke's position.

 

And...the reference you posted from John follows in this same spirit. Jesus knew, by the things his betrayers did and the way they acted, or their spirit, who would betray him. It wasn't by magic, he was just a good judge of character. I don't think this is some sort of supernatural spirit that descends on people, it is just an understanding of what he was teaching (someone else could teach this that understood it) that would cause people, naturally, to live with the correct spirit of giving or doing. The same spirit that which God is (according to Jesus). And, when your inner spirit is aligned in this manner, it is aligned with God. Then you will know the kingdom of heaven (according to my understanding of the scripture). He knew Judas by his fruits. Judas didn't have this understanding that he spoke about. He may have followed him like many Christians today do. They want the reward.

 

Maybe???

Well, it was easy to tell in John since they all got up and walked away.

 

But I used that section for more than one reason. First, it was in John and I wanted to use John to counter John. Second, it showed the concept of the elect (which is what you're contering right now). Third, if I were to back-up just a tad it really highlights the disgust the disciples had with pagan concept of eating human flesh and blood.

 

So let's take you first point and my last one. When jesus taught the last supper to these people they basically say (if you look at the first first I quoted) "are you kidding?" For Jews what he taught was forbidden under the Law. So now you need to decide what verse 64 means. Does "from the beginning" mean the beginning of time or since these guy joined the gang or since he started his flesh eating demonstration? It can be seen many ways. They then "betray" him and leave. Of course the ones that stay are "chosen." Wouldn't you spin it that way? "Well, the frauds are all gone and you, the ones YHWH has chosen to be saved, are still with me." What a special feeling you must have had. But did jesus have that kind of insight?

 

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

 

68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

 

69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

 

70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

 

71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

It seems like he did but at the same time it seems more like the author had more. Jesus first asks a question that may or may not be rhetorical (since Peter answers). Peter answers in a way saying they're all looking for a spiritual leader and jesus fits their vision. Then jesus mentions they're handpicked and one is a devil (which John clues the reader into his identity...of course what is this betrayal since we just had a whole room of betrayers). Then the chapter ends and the next chapter doesn't pick up at this point. If you were in this scene and your group had just suffered this set back, then you find out your inner circle has a "devil" would there not be another scene beyond this? One of astonishment? But they seem to take it in stride. Maybe they all knew and jesus just said what they were all thinking so it was no big deal?

 

Please don't see this as preaching to you...I just wanted to offer another opinion. I am hoping that many fundamentalist Christians can at least achieve this middle ground between complete acceptance of the supernatural nonsense and some supernatural realm where heaven dwells and complete and total rejection of all of the teachings their belief system has to offer. Because if they can reach this understanding, their lives could improve and bring them a greater understanding of how to live now. Of course, there is nothing wrong with totally rejecting it because these teachings can be found elsewhere and it is almost self-evident that giving just for the spirit of giving is its own reward. But, total rejection is difficult for many, so I just want to offer a way to where they don't have to do that.

 

I hope I offered enough reasoning that this won't be seen as the fallacy of middle gound. (I just saw this fallacy and thought I may have commited it! )

I don't take it as preaching. I see what you're saying in many of these cases. If we shift the interpretation from the literal a bit we can get a more spiritual take and "smooth" some of these bumps. As I said in another message, my brother sees things this way and it makes him no fun to argue with. My mom now waffles between a literal hell and the idea that we create our own hell here on earth (the metaphorical hell I guess) but she holds most everything else fairly literal (and that Satan and gang are literal and they go to a literal hell...so it's weird). I think I'm creating a form of gnostics in my family members.

 

mwc

[sithprincess]

Just look at the different ways these passages can be interpreted... Really, would any deity use the written word to communicate to its creation? And you know, they always say "Well, So-and-So is just taking verses out of context". Certainly, context is important in any written document or book, and even in conversation, but the thing is everyone comes up with different interpretations based on scripture IN context. Like the many methods of salvation - Jesus really emphasizes the works-and-commandments aspect, and Paul emphasizes grace. So which is it?! I recently had a discussion with someone about that, and they said "Well you have to look at the bible as a whole", to which I said, "The young ruler asking Jesus how to have eternal life didn't have the whole bible, so I guess Jesus sent him to hell by lying and saying he had to keep the commandments and give everything he had to the poor". People seem to forget that these were supposed to be real things that happened, and what was said to these individuals at the time was of extreme importance. Argh. ..

 

And since the thread is about hell, lemme just throw in my favourite biblical anecdote about it:

 

[/color]

 

Hooray....

 

Okay don't know what happened up there, but the bible passage was:

 

Revelation 14:11

And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever.

[J.S.]

The reason I haven't been posting is because my computer went down.

 

MY LAST STAND AGAINST SCOTT:

 

 

 

Can Christians sleep and night happy when they know people around them are going to be burned in hell? Yes they try to save...then Christians eventually find the truth about religion while they are still going on about there life. They come here and bug the hell out off us. Scott do you understand more people are going to hell than their was people in the holocaust. BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HELL. Not just people on Earth today but HELL OF A LOAD OF PEOPLE FROM EVEN BEFORE THE BIBLE. Don't you feel anything just saying " Oh I am sad for them but I am saved so I am ok." Christianity is literally saving YOURSELF. You choose Christianity BECAUSE OF YOU!

 

Yeah Scott I will tell you a little more about myself how I used to go to church. I was in AWANA ( a bible club) were we memorized the good verses. Being told God was good and whatnot. I was also in the kids choir at one time in my life. I was once a Christian just like you and thought God really loved people. But he no more loves people than Hitler loving Nazis and hating Jews. WHY he CHOOSES WHO GOES TO HEAVEN. It is not the other way around if God is all knowing.

 

Then Scott comes accross " I agree with God 100% on burning people in hell." Just because he is God and I compare he to a political leader. Just because your Christian you can say at least I don't agree with God on that. WHY DON'T YOU? Because THOU SHALL NOT QUESTION, THOU SHALL DOUBT. Questioning leads to doubt, doubt leads eventually to looking at religion as a whole ( Not just Christianity) and seeing all of it as one.

 

Look at religion as a whole ( for once). Christianity says believe in God ( or Jesus) and you will go to heaven. That's plain and clear we can agree it says that. But look at that as a statement not as a verse.

 

So right now here is a partial list who is not going to heaven:

 

Buddahist

 

Muslims

 

Bábism

 

any ancient native american religions

 

people that never heard of God

Hinduism

 

Us nonbelievers (first ones to hit the pan)

 

Catholics ( Because Christians say Catholics are wrong)

 

Jews ( I don't why...but they believe in God but not Jesus so is it hell for them)

Gays (www.godhatesfags.com)

 

Anyone that disagrees with Scotts Truth

 

Greeks

 

Romans ( of course THEY KILLED JESUS

 

anyone who READS HARRY POTTER

 

Aztecs

 

Mayans

 

ALL AFRICAN RELGIONS BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THE BIBLE

Akamba mythology

Akan mythology

Ashanti mythology

Bambuti mythology

Bushongo mythology

Dahomey mythology

Dinka mythology

Efik mythology

Igbo mythology

Isoko mythology

Khoikhoi mythology

Lotuko mythology

Lozi mythology

Lugbara mythology

Masai mythology

Pygmy mythology

Tumbuka mythology

Yoruba mythology

Zulu mythology

 

Anyone who doesn't listen to Focus on the Family

 

Scientists who believe in evolution

Do you understand some of these religons depend on where you would of been born? Not EVERYONE IS CHRISTIAN. You just are "lucky" to learn the truth . Do you see a little problem with that. That list can be a whole lot bigger but I am trying to break that thick scull and listen for once. Relgion I am not no major in it or anything but by observation it is more of a cultural thing. Why it still exsists in the U.S. is because of so many cultures. How do you know your God is the true God? Wait I know it is the Bible written by men. Why ignore mormons, muslims, buddahist old ancient Gods? BECAUSE Christianity just still exsists because of Great Britian bringiing it over here and trying to convert the Native americans. You have to see at least there has to be a flaw in relgion. Even if you avoiding it. There has to be some fault in religion, because there are too many.

WHY DO YOU THINK YOU ARE RIGHT? Because you were TOLD Christianity was right. I was in the same boat you once were and you have been ignoreing my posts. My last post here was verses of god ORDERING killings. WHAT DID YOU DO BUT IGNORE IT. ITS IN YOUR BIBLE! But you choose to ignore us because you don't want the cage around you rattled. You want to have the closed mind and not listen to anyone. ( I use to be so much like you but hell I changed,) Around my house there is a total of 6 churches. SIX! I don't do anything but I think to myself. 6 Churches, 6 Different denomenations, 6 different versions of God. All claim they are the truth and the other isn't. DO YOU SEE A PROBLEM WITH THAT SCOTT. My former church non denomenational " WE ARE THE TRUTH. ALL THOSE OTHER CHURCHES ARE WRONG AND WARPING GOD" My own church did the same damn thing. They make God exactly how I talk about him. " Believe or perish in hell." Doesn't matter if your good torcher for all eternity if you believe in God," THAT IS NOT FREE WILL THAT IS HOLDING A GUN TO YOUR HEAD " BELIEVE ME OR DIE.

 

Scott will say its all out of love. Once your in hell, GOD REALLY WON'T GIVE A SHIT! Another thing Heaven is suppose to have streets of gold. Last time I checked gold is on the periodic table on earth. How can you have non exsisting gold floating in the sky. WAIT I BET A LEPRACAUN IS UP THERE TO WITH A POT OF GOLD. What makes your version of God right compared to somone else. Wait I know YOUR PASTOR TOLD YOU HIS INTERPRETATION. You ignore us because your a weak person who all he does is listen for God. One day Scott GOD WILL NOT BE THERE FOR YOU. Then you will see life better. I have never been happier in my life since I left Christianity. It is my most best times ever. You want to drag it down and say "HOW ARE YOU HAPPY?" Because we have gone through an enlightment. A apple falls and you will say " God willed it" ITS GRAVITY NOT GOD NOT DAMN FUCKING GOD.

 

I want a response to my last few posts and this. DON'T ABANDON MY QUESTIONS LIKE YOU HAVE BEEN.

 

1. I'm not sure how God will take care of those who have never heard of Him. He is all knowing, so maybe He knows who will accept Him and who will not. To those who will accept Him, He sends a preacher to them. Again, I don't say this with any authority, I'm just saying that this is possible.

 

2. Catholics ARE Christians. However, just like any other church, there are some who will not be saved.

 

3. Some Jews believe in Jesus as the Messiah.

 

4. If you are a homosexual, and you resist that desire for the sake of the kingdom of God, you will not go to hell. Homosexuality is just like any other sin. It seperates us from God just like lust, lying, greed etc.

 

5. My truth? It is not my truth. It is the truth. It is not my truth. Jesus is the truth, I've just responded to His voice.

 

5. I'm sure there are Christians in every country, including Greece.

 

6. There are Roman Christians out there. Because they killed Jesus, doesn't mean they can't be saved. Jesus loves them like anyone else. Also, it was in God's ultimate plan to send His Son to die and raise Him back to life in three days.

 

7. Harry Potter is a BOOK. 'Nuff said.

 

8. I have answered your questions. Also I will not answer any questions I don't believe deserve an answer. Not because I don't know the answer {If I don't, I'll say "I don't know"}, but because if you really want to know the answer to something, ask it in the right spirit. I will answer sincere questions, if I know the answer.

[Ramen666]

Scott I really have nothing else to say to you. You have CHOSEN to ignore questions and verses. I am through with you I will let you git eaten by the dogs alive. That was it happening you are no hero for Christ because you can't even defend him. Once the defense is out God is out. You have INGORED ALL THE VERSES AND THE MAIN POINT OF THE POST. You are weak just shut up and I never want to see you again because in fact " The shield and sword of God are broken." I have hit you like a trojan horse ( Not the condem) you have fled and fled other people. You make me laugh.

 

I just want to know one thing about Jews, they created the torah before the Christians ADDED TO THEIR BOOK. WHY DO THEY DESERVE TO GO HELL JUST BECAUSE THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN JESUS? That's like me wrting a book and YOU ADDING THE NEXT CHAPTER WHEN IT WAS COMPLETED. Come on Christians more deserve to go to hell than Jews because the TORAH WAS THE ORGINAL TEXT NOT THE BIBLE.

[Dhampir]

Ramen666

... ...Yeeuhh.

Yeeuhh.

[J.S.]

Scott I really have nothing else to say to you. You have CHOSEN to ignore questions and verses. I am through with you I will let you git eaten by the dogs alive. That was it happening you are no hero for Christ because you can't even defend him. Once the defense is out God is out. You have INGORED ALL THE VERSES AND THE MAIN POINT OF THE POST. You are weak just shut up and I never want to see you again because in fact " The shield and sword of God are broken." I have hit you like a trojan horse ( Not the condem) you have fled and fled other people. You make me laugh.

 

I just want to know one thing about Jews, they created the torah before the Christians ADDED TO THEIR BOOK. WHY DO THEY DESERVE TO GO HELL JUST BECAUSE THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN JESUS? That's like me wrting a book and YOU ADDING THE NEXT CHAPTER WHEN IT WAS COMPLETED. Come on Christians more deserve to go to hell than Jews because the TORAH WAS THE ORGINAL TEXT NOT THE BIBLE.

 

Must you keep asking the same questions over and over? I have hold you a hundred times why anyone goes to hell for not becoming a disciple of Christ.

[Ramen666]

Asking 100 times, I only asked once but I didn't get a direct response just "some" Jews believe in Jesus anyway got my question answered sort of. My opninion (which of course doesn't matter) if God was real. The Jews should not have to go to hell anyway since THEY CREATED THE TORAH. But hell its my opinion. I think at least if they believe in God they should go to heaven, not neccisarily Jesus. But hell you don't care anyway so there is no point in this argument. I think it is unfair system anyway......

 

 

Like I said I will let life happen to you...then you will change, you will get eaten alive by this judgement....

[Astreja]

Must you keep asking the same questions over and over? I have hold you a hundred times why anyone goes to hell for not becoming a disciple of Christ.

No, J.S. You have told us why you believe that people go to Hell. You have not proven the existence of your god, nor have you proven the existence of Hell. You have not satisfactorily answered the question of how an omnipotent and supposedly compassionate deity needed and wanted a place of punishment in the first place. You have not convinced any of us that this sending-to-Hell is fair. You can't even convince me that your Hell-obsessed god is anything more than a spiteful and egotistical petty demon.

 

Until you provide satisfactory answers to the above questions, and not cheap cut-and-paste jobs or quotations from the Bible (that book we all know and loathe), you are going to hear the same damn questions over and over again.

 

Because we ain't buying what you're trying to sell.

[J.S.]

Ramen, you seem to think everyone, eventually, denies the Faith. That is NOT true.

 

Astreja, this thread is not about proving the existence of God. This is about whether or not hell is a fair punishment. I give you reasons why, yet you keep singing the same old song.

[Astreja]

Astreja, this thread is not about proving the existence of God. This is about whether or not hell is a fair punishment. I give you reasons why, yet you keep singing the same old song.

Let's sum up your reasons, shall we?

 

1. "Why would God accept someone in the afterlife who rejected Him in this life?"

Why not? An omniscient being would know exactly why this particular person didn't accept the story. And how could the presence of this person in an afterlife somehow hurt your big, powerful god? Does not compute.

 

2. "One of the names the Bible uses for hell is "outer darkness". Since it's dark, and God is light, He must not be there."

Well, so much for your god being omnipresent. (Also noted: Your alternative hypothesis of "God is there but in a bad way" in the same post.)

 

3. "Hell is a spiritual place for the wicked to wait until they are to be cast into the lake of fire at the Last Judgment"

What the Hell for? Why should an omniscient being put the wicked "on hold" only to toss them into a lake of fire sometime in the future?

 

4. "Evil in God's eyes and evil in humanity's eyes are very different."

If so, then "evil" becomes a meaningless term. And, if they are different, what's the point of using any morality derived from your god's concept of evilness?

 

5. "It is the power or Satan himself unleahed to deceive the entire world."

With the explicit approval of your supposedly "good" god. Either your god is not all-powerful, or your god is not all-good. Choose one or the other. Now.

[J.S.]

Astreja, this thread is not about proving the existence of God. This is about whether or not hell is a fair punishment. I give you reasons why, yet you keep singing the same old song.

Let's sum up your reasons, shall we?

 

1. "Why would God accept someone in the afterlife who rejected Him in this life?"

Why not? An omniscient being would know exactly why this particular person didn't accept the story. And how could the presence of this person in an afterlife somehow hurt your big, powerful god? Does not compute.

 

2. "One of the names the Bible uses for hell is "outer darkness". Since it's dark, and God is light, He must not be there."

Well, so much for your god being omnipresent. (Also noted: Your alternative hypothesis of "God is there but in a bad way" in the same post.)

 

3. "Hell is a spiritual place for the wicked to wait until they are to be cast into the lake of fire at the Last Judgment"

What the Hell for? Why should an omniscient being put the wicked "on hold" only to toss them into a lake of fire sometime in the future?

 

4. "Evil in God's eyes and evil in humanity's eyes are very different."

If so, then "evil" becomes a meaningless term. And, if they are different, what's the point of using any morality derived from your god's concept of evilness?

 

5. "It is the power or Satan himself unleahed to deceive the entire world."

With the explicit approval of your supposedly "good" god. Either your god is not all-powerful, or your god is not all-good. Choose one or the other. Now.

 

 

1. God cannot be in the presence of sin. Why is this so difficult to understand?

 

2. As I've said, He may also be there, just in judgment.

 

3. Because the great white throne is the last judgment when all the wicked will be formally sentenced to the lake of fire.

 

4. Evil does not become a meaningless term. We just have to accept the what God considers good and evil over what we consider good and evil.

 

5. God is both all powerful and all good. He is all powerful so He lets Satan attempt to deceive the world. He is all good because He has granted a way for us not to be deceived. Therefore, we are at fault if we are deceived, not Him.

[mwc]

1. God cannot be in the presence of sin. Why is this so difficult to understand?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. First, bible-god is supposedly everywhere and therefore it is always in the presence of sin. Second, bible-god also took the form of a man in jesus and lived on the sin filled earth. Third, you don't get to say what bible-god can and cannot do.

 

Why is this so difficult to understand?

 

2. As I've said, He may also be there, just in judgment.

YHWH is not light. It is a metaphor. He is omnipresent and therefore there is no "lack" of him as there would be if he were light. He does not turn on and off. He is not blocked by walls. He does not cast shadows. These are things light does. If your god does this then you are worshipping light and you are probably a moth.

 

3. Because the great white throne is the last judgment when all the wicked will be formally sentenced to the lake of fire.

I have a great white throne too. I have two actually. I wonder which I will judge from?

 

You do realize that Daniel said that it wasn't a throne but a chariot (of fire...not the movie) that all this happened from, right?

 

Also, I could be mistaken, but I think the question is why the redundancy? Why hell and then the lake of fire? I know, so we can have the "judgement" phase in the middle. But tell me, who is in hell that will not go into the lake? The bible mentions no one. Not one soul. So the "judgement" is a joke. A little kangaroo court. Bypass hell and toss people right into the lake. The names are already known so get it over with.

 

4. Evil does not become a meaningless term. We just have to accept the what God considers good and evil over what we consider good and evil.

Sure it does. If we're of the understanding that walking against the light will get us a stern talking to, based on all we're told by the literature given by the government, but when we actually cross against the light we're taken behind a building and beaten then the agreed on terms were meaningless. If the government says "well, that's what WE meant by stern talking to" would you simply say "oh, well then, that's perfectly alright" or would you try to get this huge lie exposed so others don't get what they didn't bargain for? Sure they crossed against the light. Right or wrong but they didn't bargain on "stern talking to" equally "beating."

 

When there's no meeting of the minds contracts become null and void. This is for a reason. Words mean things. This should be obvious to anyone and everyone. If everyone doesn't agree on the term then it is pointless to use that term. If our "evil" does not mean the same as bible-god's "evil" and we can't truly know what his version is, then to use the term "evil" is pointless. We will never use it correctly. There's no possible way to have a meeting of the minds. The contract becomes null and void.

 

5. God is both all powerful and all good. He is all powerful so He lets Satan attempt to deceive the world. He is all good because He has granted a way for us not to be deceived. Therefore, we are at fault if we are deceived, not Him.

This simply makes no sense at all. Did you even read it or did you just type it and hit post?

 

He's so powerful he let's someone else deceive the world? For what purpose? To show off his mighty superpowers? If he was so powerful he simply would NOT allow this. In addition, the epistles state that he'll be doing some tricking of his own. Jesus obfuscated the meaning of his parables. It seems he's not such a straight shooter himself.

 

Then he's so good he sends his foot down to be a pagan blood sacrifice so we won't be tricked. Therefore, if we don't love his bloody foot then we're at fault.

 

How is this powerful or loving? Powerful and loving is not allowing us to be deceived in the first place. Having control over your mighty empire is powerful. With great power comes great responsibility. He has not demonstrated either.

 

mwc

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

 

5. God is both all powerful and all good. He is all powerful so He lets Satan attempt to deceive the world. He is all good because He has granted a way for us not to be deceived. Therefore, we are at fault if we are deceived, not Him.

 

I agree with mwc. Scott, you're engaging in what is known as "God talk." People have powerful, positive responses to words like "powerful" and "good" and "love" and "God", etc. So we all have a temptation to feel good when those words are combined in various ways. A lot of the time, as with your paragraph above, the combination is literally nonsensical because it entails self-contradiction. It's as though we all like the words "triangle" and "four" and "sides" and "mystery" and some group says "we'd love to tell you about the mystery of the four-sided triangle." It sounds really deep but it is literally nonsensical. Can you see that what you're asserting on this and other threads does the same thing? In the end you have to rely on the explanatory device of "mystery," as though you say "evil to us is not the same as evil to God, but that's a mystery." Mystery doesn't explain anything, though; invoking it just covers over the fact that you've put a bunch of contradictory or even meaningless propositions out there.

 

In the middle ages these problems of religious language were well known. Theologians like Aquinas argued that theological terms are not equivocal - i.e. don't mean something totally different from what they mean in everyday speech - and not univocal - i.e. don't mean exactly in reference to God what they mean in reference to us. They are analogical - i.e. the meaning with reference to God is like/analogical to the meaning with reference to us.

 

I'm not sure that move does anything. I suspect "analogical" collapses into "equivocal" under rigorous analysis.

 

At least the Calvinists try to be consistent. They just say no one can have true understanding of anything unless that person is regenerated, and no one is regenerated unless one of the elect, and there's no truth unless you presupposed the Bible as interpreted by Calvinists. The rest of us walk away and let them argue in their closed circle of arbitrary assumptions.

[Ramen666]

Ramen, you seem to think everyone, eventually, denies the Faith. That is NOT true.[quote

 

 

Scott I actually didn't say that. However I know even the best people with the most faith( people like you) can even become athesist. Even the people you thought were the best in their faith it can happen. The reason why it doesn't is still out of fear in hell. Heck that is why I was still hanging by a thread right before I was 100% athesist. It's fear is what keeps the people in line. There just has to be an event that will change you. Have you read any of the testonies on here? Really these people had faith but they never recieved any help (that God is suppose to do). I am not saying you will deny faith now or even in 10 years but someday I think this seed that got planted in your mind may come back to you. Why else would you come here besides a mistake? I think someday you might see something wrong in the church, some practice,something happens in your life you will see no God is there for you.

 

Plus here is how I bet you thought of athesists before you came here: You thought all they were people angry and in denial of God. You are surprised that you found stuff from within your own Bible, self contradictory, hate and evils. While at church we are just told the gooody goody stuff believe in God or go to hell basically. We never heard of the killings ordered by God.

[Astreja]

1. God cannot be in the presence of sin. Why is this so difficult to understand?

It's difficult to understand because it contradicts the idea of an omnipotent god. If your god is incapable of being in the presence of sin, then your god cannot be all-powerful.

2. As I've said, He may also be there, just in judgment.

Then the "separation from God" argument is just misdirection, an attempt to make the Hell myth acceptable in liberal Christianity.

3. Because the great white throne is the last judgment when all the wicked will be formally sentenced to the lake of fire.

That did not answer my question. Your god *knows* the final outcome. Why all the dramatics? Why not just terminate the existences of the "wicked"? Why torture them at all? Surely not to provide an example for the *other* wicked ones (who are supposedly in exactly the same bad spot and have problems of their own). Surely not to provide entertainment for the "saved" beings (who, if they get off on that kind of sadism, are not deserving of being in the "good place"). No matter how one looks at it, it's preposterous.

4. Evil does not become a meaningless term. We just have to accept the what God considers good and evil over what we consider good and evil.

If we are unable to comprehend with our own minds what your god thinks is good or evil, then any judgement rendered upon us by your god is null and void.

 

To add insult to injury, your god's idea of good and evil is supposedly recorded in the Bible. A book written by humans, not by the god itself. Why give insider information to a few power-mad goat herders and have it badly translated through several languages, then insist that people thousands of years removed from the "revelation" just plain accept it? No. Unacceptable.

5. God is both all powerful and all good. He is all powerful so He lets Satan attempt to deceive the world. He is all good because He has granted a way for us not to be deceived. Therefore, we are at fault if we are deceived, not Him.

If your god gives carte blanche to Satan to mess with the minds of humans, your god is guilty of pulling a colossal mind-fuck on billions of sentient beings and is therefore, IMNSHO, the epitome of evil. By the definition you yourself have given us, your god is completely unworthy of being worshipped.

 

 

YHWH is not light. It is a metaphor. He is omnipresent and therefore there is no "lack" of him as there would be if he were light. He does not turn on and off. He is not blocked by walls. He does not cast shadows. These are things light does. If your god does this then you are worshipping light and you are probably a moth.

Argumentum ad hepialum!

 

Thanx, mwc. I needed that.