Is Hell Fair?

[Ramen666]

Astreja has a point

 

 

5. God is both all powerful and all good. He is all powerful so He lets Satan attempt to deceive the world. He is all good because He has granted a way for us not to be deceived. Therefore, we are at fault if we are deceived, not Him.

 

If your god gives carte blanche to Satan to mess with the minds of humans, your god is guilty of pulling a colossal mind-fuck on billions of sentient beings and is therefore, IMNSHO, the epitome of evil. By the definition you yourself have given us, your god is completely unworthy of being worshipped.

 

God does ALLOW Satan to decieve us. God ALLOWS sin still to exsist. God also ALLOWED the snake to tempt eve. God ALLOWED sin to be created. God ALLOWED the creation of hell. God ALLOWS us to be torchered in hell for all ETERNITY. If God was such a leader he would defeated Satan once and for all.YET HE DOESN'T, he allows it to continue and to continye. If he is all powerful could he stop it once and for all. God ALLOWS terrible things to happen. If God is really what he said he was iit's simply not possible.

 

I have made these conclusions:

 

1. God is not moral

 

Here is a scenerio example of God: A firefighter has everything he needs to save an innocent child from burning to death. He even hears the child's screams as it is dieing a horrible death. However he does nothing.He just says " Hey the child I was there for it." But the firefighter did nothing for the child.

 

How this relates to God, God has all the magical powers. He can do ANYTHING RIGHT? People who are devote Christians can have shit happen to them. Hurricanes, Fires, anything. People pray for God to reveal himself. Yet he doesn't. People loose faith according to you they will end up in hell. God won't do anything if he was really there.

 

2. God also can't be all knowing

 

Why was God SHOCKED humans sinned? Why was Jesus begging to God right before he died?

 

Scenerio: Say I know everything I know how you will die. Let's say get hit by a car. I know the time,date, how. I could warn you and get out of there and totally avoid it. But yet I will watch you die by getting hit.

 

If you knew I knew this how would feel? anger perhaps?

 

If God knew we would sin and then he would "curse" humanity. Does humans have a right to be angry? Don't throw in Gods will shit because I am though with that.

 

3. The Truth What truth? Which truth?

 

You say you only are telling us the truth. Funny thing is their is 1000's of truths. Many religions out there buddy. Just so happens I was a Christian once that left it. I could of known other truth's/ Why you are telling us the truth is because The Bible said so. Well the thing is their is a lot of truths your's is just another one of those truth's that really doesn't matter anymore.

[OnceConvinced]

1. God cannot be in the presence of sin. Why is this so difficult to understand?

 

God is not all powerful then. He is not omnipotent. If he can't handle a little sin, then what sort of a God is he?

 

5. God is both all powerful and all good.

But he can't be all powerful if he can't be in the presence of sin! Hell Man would be more powerful than God, because they could just sin and God would have to flee! Maybe that's why Satan is still around? God can't beat Satan, because Satan is the ultimate sinner. His sin is just so evil, God can't go anywhere near the guy.

 

 

God does ALLOW Satan to decieve us. God ALLOWS sin still to exsist. God also ALLOWED the snake to tempt eve. God ALLOWED sin to be created. God ALLOWED the creation of hell. God ALLOWS us to be torchered in hell for all ETERNITY. If God was such a leader he would defeated Satan once and for all.YET HE DOESN'T, he allows it to continue and to continye. If he is all powerful could he stop it once and for all. God ALLOWS terrible things to happen. If God is really what he said he was iit's simply not possible.

 

Just further proof that Christianity is a man made religion. Just man trying to rationalise evil. Evil happens, so there for there must be some evil being going around decieving people. But this evil being can't be God, because God would be a good guy. OULA! Satan is born. But wait, why wouldn't God destroy this guy? Oh... he must have decided to let him stay alive for some reason. No worries, we can get around that plot hole some how.......

 

Hell is also obviously a man made belief. It is man trying to force their beliefs on others using fear tactics to keep them in-line. Like a parent threatening their kid to give them a belting if they don't do as they are told.

 

IT'S ALL MAN MADE! IT'S OBVIOUS! If only I'd realised it years ago. When you read the bible from the point of view it's all about man trying to rationalise the universe, it all becomes so clear. It all makes so much sence!

[mwc]

Argumentum ad hepialum!

 

mwc

[SkepticOfBible]

5. God is both all powerful and all good. He is all powerful so He lets Satan attempt to deceive the world

 

So pretty much Satan is nothing more than a tool to play out God's cosmic plan. I see. So if God gives the power and allows him to do what he wants, what part of Satan is rebellion?

 

I suggest you read the following short articles

 

Let's Take A Look At Satan

 

Was Satan Really A Rebel And Fallen Angel?

 

Jews believe in The Satan, and not in the devil(Jewish Website)

 

It seems just like Hell, the devil is also another Christian invention or as the evidence suggest, a pagan influence.

[OnceConvinced]

So pretty much Satan is nothing more than a tool to play out God's cosmic plan. I see. So if God gives the power and allows him to do what he wants, what part of Satan is rebellion?

 

Which pretty much fits in with how Satan is portrayed in the book of Job.

[J.S.]

5. God is both all powerful and all good. He is all powerful so He lets Satan attempt to deceive the world

 

So pretty much Satan is nothing more than a tool to play out God's cosmic plan. I see. So if God gives the power and allows him to do what he wants, what part of Satan is rebellion?

 

I suggest you read the following short articles

 

Let's Take A Look At Satan

 

Was Satan Really A Rebel And Fallen Angel?

 

Jews believe in The Satan, and not in the devil(Jewish Website)

 

It seems just like Hell, the devil is also another Christian invention or as the evidence suggest, a pagan influence.

 

Satan is not a Christian invention. The book of Job talks about Satan. Also, Jewish people mentioned Satan in the New Testament.

 

1. And the LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the LORD and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it." Job 1:7

 

2. And the seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name." And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightening from heaven. Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven." Luke 10:17-20

[mwc]

Um, Scott, he said THE DEVIL was a xian invention, not Satan. These are two different characters in the book. Just like there is no Lucifer either. Satan is just plain old Satan. Loyal member of the court of YHWH. All the fancy stuff to do with him is strictly xian invention.

 

I can tell you this. If Satan was that fallen angel, the "snake" in Genesis, then that "wandering" he was doing in Job must have been a bitch since it would have been taking him forever to slither around on his belly and eating dust from time to time. That was his fate after all.

 

Maybe you should have bothered to read the links?

 

Oh, and was Luke Jewish? Anyone?

 

mwc

[J.S.]

mwc, Satan and the Devil are one and the same {Rev. 12:9}. Christianity doesn't "invent" anything. If Satan exists now, he existed way back in the times of the Old Testament. If hell {or the lake of fire, whatever} is forever now, it was forever in the Old Testament. Jesus is God. I think He knows.

[Thackerie]

... 2. And the seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name." And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightening from heaven. Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven." Luke 10:17-20

 

Why should anyone put any credence in verse 18 (about Jesus saying he was an eye-witness to Satan falling from heaven) when it is immediately followed by verse 19 (about believers being able to trample on serpents and scorpions without being hurt) which is observable as being untrue?

 

Oh yeah, the same reason why we are to believe that god exists and is all powerful and good even though observation and common sense also shows that is untrue -- because it's in the bible.

[mwc]

mwc, Satan and the Devil are one and the same {Rev. 12:9}. Christianity doesn't "invent" anything. If Satan exists now, he existed way back in the times of the Old Testament. If hell {or the lake of fire, whatever} is forever now, it was forever in the Old Testament.

And there's the invention. Thank you for confirming it.

 

Jews do not equal xians to the best of my knowledge (even though Jews may have invented xianity...we don't know for sure). Therefore anything in the so-called NT is, in fact, xian doctrine and a xian invention. Now, unless you can point to "the devil" in the OT (the Jewish doctrine), the point stands.

 

Before I continue I'm going to clarify your second point of "If Satan exists now..." He does not exist now, he never existed and so we are merely debating a myth as if it were real (see my sig).

 

However, I am well aware of your "proof" verse(s). In the same chapter of Revelation you'd likely want me to believe that around verse 6 we magically leap from seeing the future to a vision from before time (or around the start of time) when the text doesn't support this so the war in heaven, where this entity is cast down, can occur prior to the garden scene. You can't support that textually so why would I accept your other point?

 

Let's examine your text though. We have a dragon that was cast out. According to legend this was more than likely the leviathan. I've gone over this in another thread. We never reached a consensus on my point of view but I think Ugaritic, other texts and the bible itself (I believe Isaiah but I'm not going to look since this is all an aside) support my theory. This dragon is called "devil" and "adversary."

 

So if we look at the Strong's for devil we find (I'm not posting the whole thing...look it up):

Diabolos

1. prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely

1. a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,

2. metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him

 

And for "adversary" (satan):

Satanas

1. adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act), the name given to

a. the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate adversary of God and Christ

1. he incites apostasy from God and to sin

2. circumventing men by his wiles

3. the worshippers of idols are said to be under his control

4. by his demons he is able to take possession of men and inflict them with diseases

5. by God's assistance he is overcome

6. on Christ's return from heaven he will be bound with chains for a thousand years, but when the thousand years are finished he will walk the earth in yet greater power, but shortly after will be given over to eternal punishment

2. a Satan-like man

 

Even with the heavy xian bias of Strong's concordance it's pretty hard to say these guys are the same just by looking at the definitions. You'd think if the case were so clear cut it would be easy to spot (and they'd cross reference them here).

 

Jesus is God. I think He knows.

Uh, yeah, okay. Well, when jesus gets his own account then he can debate me on this but I'm talking to you right now.

 

mwc

[Ramen666]

5. God is both all powerful and all good. He is all powerful so He lets Satan attempt to deceive the world

 

 

Listen to how contradictory that is right there. How can someone be good but let's evil decieve us. How can he let his enemy MESS WITH ARE MINDS. Wern't we suppose to love God and everything. (Don't answer that I know that answer). Why would God throw the curve ball at us? How can someone be so good and so powerful NOT defeat the enemy when he had the chance (plus he already knew the outcome). God HATES sin but ALLOWS sin to continue with Satan decieving us. Please you have to see a problem with that. You are just proving my point by this statement that God is not all good or powerful. He is not all powerful because he can't get rid of sin or be the presence of it. God really is a weak bastard...

 

 

Also it ism't humans fault because God lets the deciever , decieve us. When God already knows how stupid humans are. He will already know who will be decieved and fall. But the thing is HE IS SETS IT UP so we can fail.

 

 

God is not all good either:

 

Death to Followers of Other Religions

 

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

 

Kill Nonbelievers

 

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

 

 

Kill False Prophets

 

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

 

 

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

 

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

 

 

You can't be all good and do that stuff I am sorry. That is just 3 examples there are many more. ( Lots more) But I am just being nice and giving three. You will reply " Its out of the love of Jeezus!" No I am sorry you make it come off if God is a hero...he is not." You make God sound flawless but he still has anger issues. You make the Bible sound perfect. Funny thing Christians say the only thing perfect is God. But wait the Bible wasn't written by God it made by the corrupted and sinful men.

Yet the Jews invented the Torah. They may in fact believe in God...but not Jesus so they are destined to hell. If you say yes to that that is sick really. The Jews created the Torah and the Christians added to it. Just like The Book of Mormon is Bible II. That is the biggest flaw and inconsistncy there is that makes Christianity look like rubbish the best. Why would Jews go to hell? They made the damn religion in the first place and Christians hijacked it. I think if one religion had more accuracy anyway it would be the Torah NOT THE BIBLE. Because the Torah was the original form of the text , the ORGINAL religion. Then the Bible came out ( just like the Torah) it was used for political purposes and control.

[sithprincess]

 

 

IT'S ALL MAN MADE! IT'S OBVIOUS! If only I'd realised it years ago. When you read the bible from the point of view it's all about man trying to rationalise the universe, it all becomes so clear. It all makes so much sence!

 

That's exactly right! That's something I"ve realized lately. It's so nice to see someone else say it! And it amazes me how Scott ignores logic. I mean, how can he not even DOUBT? Standing from this side of the fence, it is all so amazingly clear.

 

Scott-what do you think about babies? They will go to hell, along with the mentally handicapped. There's no doubt in my mind that you have gone to a church that teaches the "age of accountability". Now, I could be wrong on this, but I don't think there's a single bible verse to back that up. It seems logical that people who cannot make a decision to follow jesus would be exempt from the big barbecue down under, but really it's not, and this is why:

 

God cannot be in the presence of sin. But "in sin our mothers conceive us". We're BORN sinful. So a baby is automatically born with a sin nature, and cannot choose to accept jesus. Therefore, since the child is full of sin, and, in your words, Scott, we must be covered in jesus' blood for god to accept us into heaven, the infants and children and mentally handicapped have to go to hell, right?

[nick5]

Yup, babies are born in sin. Scott, ever heard of the original sin? Humans are BORN sinful and can not be saved unless they are old enough to accept jesus. That means is a baby dies before learning how to talk, he goes straight to hell. Too bad huh.

Just like the one in my sig.

[Ramen666]

I was browsing looking for how many people actually go to hell? How many don't know the truth. I happend to stumble on a Christian website. It is quite interesting look at it everyone. Especially Scott since it is a Christian website you have nothing to say against it.

 

http://www.biblehelp.org/signal.htm

 

Here is something from that page:

 

The Raw Statistics

 

Number of people in the world (as of Jan. 2004) 6.339 billion

 

Number of true believers 410 million

 

Number of non-believers 5.989 billion

 

% of the world’s population which will die this year .883%

 

# of the non-believers who will die this year 52.9 million

 

# of seconds in a year 31,536,000

 

# of the non-believers who will die each second 1.68

 

Now lets say this is pretty accurate ( I don't know how it is) MORE PEOPLE end up in HELL than in Heaven. I thought God was all loving...I thought his word was the truth. In this data I think "non believers" could from different religions. Not just athesism because athesim is the lowest percentage of any. So if someone has another faith they are destined to hell. If I was born in the middle east DESTINED TO HELL. If I was a baby and died I AM DESTINED TO HELL. If I was handicapped, DESTINED TO HELL. If I was a Native American guess were I would be? Not Heaven. If I was in China/Japan I WOULD GO TO HELL. don't you honestly see a problem with that?

 

 

Here is a pie chart of the world religions ( Not from this site) If you look at the pie it is bigger than Christianity is. So on 33% of the world goes to heaven and 72% gets eternal punishment forever just not believing in one belief system. Eternal torment FOREVER. Yeah God sure cares about us. (sarcasim)

[J.S.]

Innocents do not go to hell. God is just, but He is also merciful and loving.

 

Jesus loves children -

 

"Let the little children come to Me, and do not fobid them; for such is the kingdom of God. Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it. Luke 18:16-17

[nick5]

So? Christians claim jesus loves everyone and his love knows no limit. And yet he sends a bunch of people to hell and enjoy watching them suffer. Nowhere in the bible does it say children do not go to hell. You probably got that from Left Behind.

 

However, it does say that we are born in sin (original sin). It also says that no one will enter heaven unless they accept Jesus. Therefore, according to the bible, babies go to hell.

[J.S.]

So? Christians claim jesus loves everyone and his love knows no limit. And yet he sends a bunch of people to hell and enjoy watching them suffer. Nowhere in the bible does it say children do not go to hell. You probably got that from Left Behind.

 

However, it does say that we are born in sin (original sin). It also says that no one will enter heaven unless they accept Jesus. Therefore, according to the bible, babies go to hell.

 

You seem to be a very angry person and it doesn't seem that you desire to know the truth. So, I'll stop trying to explain it to you.

[nick5]

You seem to be a very angry person and it doesn't seem that you desire to know the truth. So, I'll stop trying to explain it to you.

 

No scott, I've explained to you why I'm right, using the bible as my source. Jesus is the violent, angry character, and you're the one worshipping him. You're just out of arguments. That's why you're stopping. Because you know I'm right and there's nothing else you can do, even though you won't admit it.

[J.S.]

You seem to be a very angry person and it doesn't seem that you desire to know the truth. So, I'll stop trying to explain it to you.

 

No scott, I've explained to you why I'm right, using the bible as my source. Jesus is the violent, angry character, and you're the one worshipping him. You're just out of arguments. That's why you're stopping. Because you know I'm right and there's nothing else you can do, even though you won't admit it.

 

You're not right. You've been deceived and you are a deceiver. How can you dare to set yourself up as a judge and a god by judging His action {God, who has infinite knowledge} by your own standards {you, who has finite knowledge}? I believe in Christ and I know who He is. You do not. I'm not stoping because I'm out of arguments, I'm, stoping because you will not believe the truth and I'm tired of "throwing pearls before swine".

[Ramen666]

You seem to be a very angry person and it doesn't seem that you desire to know the truth. So, I'll stop trying to explain it to you.

 

No scott, I've explained to you why I'm right, using the bible as my source. Jesus is the violent, angry character, and you're the one worshipping him. You're just out of arguments. That's why you're stopping. Because you know I'm right and there's nothing else you can do, even though you won't admit it.

 

You're not right. You've been deceived and you are a deceiver. How can you dare to set yourself up as a judge and a god by judging His action {God, who has infinite knowledge} by your own standards {you, who has finite knowledge}? I believe in Christ and I know who He is. You do not. I'm not stoping because I'm out of arguments, I'm, stoping because you will not believe the truth and I'm tired of "throwing pearls before swine".

 

I know this post wasn't directed to me but I am This has to be the funniest post I have read yet. I mean I honestly don't know how anyone can take you serious after saying that.

[nick5]

Scott, the more you post, the more you prove that I'm right. People are laughing at you, and there's a reason for that.

It's because you're a dick and you're an idiot. I proved I was right with bible quotes, and the only thing you can find to say is "u r wrong!!!1 cuz i said so!!".

 

Your god sucks and I have every right to judge him. He is nothing compared to me, because I am real and he is a character in a book. And a pretty bad, stupid and retarded character, too. Not to mention evil. Every single person on this here forum is more loving, more kind and more intelligent than the crappy demon you worship.

[Ramen666]

The thing is Scott we are using the bible with quotes not another religous book. Your own "Holy" book. All these quotes we have shown you are within your own book and that is what makes you like an idiot. You are falling and eating in your shit now, unable to defend anything anymore. All the comebacks " God is right and everyone else is wrong"

[J.S.]

Scott, the more you post, the more you prove that I'm right. People are laughing at you, and there's a reason for that.

It's because you're a dick and you're an idiot. I proved I was right with bible quotes, and the only thing you can find to say is "u r wrong!!!1 cuz i said so!!".

 

Your god sucks and I have every right to judge him. He is nothing compared to me, because I am real and he is a character in a book. And a pretty bad, stupid and retarded character, too. Not to mention evil. Every single person on this here forum is more loving, more kind and more intelligent than the crappy demon you worship.

 

I beg to differ. No one is more loving, more kind, or more intelligent that God. You may think you have every right to judge Him now, but I promise, and more importantly the Bible promises, that one day you will bow before the Son of God.

 

The thing is Scott we are using the bible with quotes not another religous book. Your own "Holy" book. All these quotes we have shown you are within your own book and that is what makes you like an idiot. You are falling and eating in your shit now, unable to defend anything anymore. All the comebacks " God is right and everyone else is wrong"

 

Yes, let God be true and every man a liar. You have given me nothing. NOTHING. No one here can prove that God doesn't exist, no one here can prove the God is evil. Why? Because He is higher than us, and our minds cannot possibly grasp the true meanings of good and evil without Him. All you do is say "Well, the Bible's false. Deal wit dat!". You see? What you accuse me of doing, you yourselves do. It's nothing.

[nick5]

I beg to differ. No one is more loving, more kind, or more intelligent that God.

Actually, your little demon is an evil, deceiving, lying son of a bitch and doesn't deserve anyone's worship.

Easy way to prove that anyone here is more kind than yaweh: Nobody here, and I do mean NOBODY (prove me wrong), would send ANYONE to eternal torture, or let anyone be tortured forever if they had the power to prevent it. Your demonic tyrant does. Which makes every single person here AT LEAST a step above him in terms of kindness.

 

You may think you have every right to judge Him now

Because it's true.

 

but I promise, and more importantly the Bible promises, that one day you will bow before the Son of God.

No scott, that's from a fairy tale book with plot holes bigger than my nuts. It won't happen, because someone made it up. Simple as that.

 

What you accuse me of doing, you yourselves do. It's nothing.

Wow, talk about being in denial... funny thing is, he's the one saying we "don't seek the truth". Scott, you're the funniest e-guy I've ever met.

 

No one here can prove that God doesn't exist

First of all, that,s not true. Every single god known to man, including jesus, can be proven to be false if we look at the origins of it's religion.

Second, it's true that no one can prove that there isn't "some god" out there.

However.

a) if theres a "god" out there, it certainly isn't the bible one, as this one has been proven to be false.

b)if there is such a being, not a single human being on this planet has ever come in contact with it. So your religion is still wrong just like all others.

[Ramen666]

QUOTE(Ramen666 @ Sep 24 2006, 09:46 PM)

 

The thing is Scott we are using the bible with quotes not another religous book. Your own "Holy" book. All these quotes we have shown you are within your own book and that is what makes you like an idiot. You are falling and eating in your shit now, unable to defend anything anymore. All the comebacks " God is right and everyone else is wrong"

 

 

 

Yes, let God be true and every man a liar. You have given me nothing. NOTHING. No one here can prove that God doesn't exist, no one here can prove the God is evil. Why? Because He is higher than us, and our minds cannot possibly grasp the true meanings of good and evil without Him. All you do is say "Well, the Bible's false. Deal wit dat!". You see? What you accuse me of doing, you yourselves do. It's nothing.

 

 

Scott is getting a little touchy anger is starting to come out of him. By you saying that just actually backs me up a little bit more. Ok every man is a liar, that includes the writers of the Bible because you in fact said EVERY MAN. So therfore that accounts for all the authors of the Bible. They can lie just like everyone else.So the Bible was made by sinful,corrupt liars. No you are saying God is right no matter how much torcher he inflicts on people, how much agony and pain inflicted. The God in the Bible is not right because he does WICKED things. I have showed you quotes of the wicked things and you still call them right. That is the true sickness of Christianity. People worship and a thing that does wicked things and people don't care. Just like the Nazi's and what Hitler did. Same pricipal I can grasp good and evil. God is not good he is damn fucking evil.

 

Scott...Good...anger leads to hate...you are starting to hate us just like the Bible commands. You will soon be so consumed in the Bible you do something will regret. You are following cult and I can't wait to the day that it falls.