Is Hell Fair?

[Dhampir]

Dhampir, I think that was there so that they could have eaten it and live forever. Adam and Eve, however, chose to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. After this happened, if they ate of the tree of life, they probably would have lived forever. God won't let that happen until it's time. Then all those who believe in Him will be able to eat of this tree, and live forever.

But you just said that god designed us to live forever. How comes it that sin is what caused them to die, if they were going to die anyway?

[Ramen666]

Shows us evidence? Shows us evidence? How really does he do that. We are on Earth so we are suppose assume that God is their. Scott you are talking in circles. You don't believe in evoultion because there is not enough evidence? I don't understand why you believe this seriousally I just can't grasp it anymore. I don't see any evidence at all....

 

The only "evidence" of God is the Bible. (which is full of contradictions) But that is not enough information at all. Like other accounts. What even adds to this mix is that their are other religions. Plus all the denomenations telling which way to get to heaven. I just think its absurb. There is no evidence at alll I don't know what evidence. If God answered prayers ( another thread) that would be evidence. He didn't reveal himself to me to stop me from being an athesit so the only conclusion he could care less.

[Legion]

I am here to lead people to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Scott I've said this to Amy and I'll say it to you. If this your really your calling then your efforts will probably best be spent elsewhere. Most likely you will find few takers here. We once believed and we found reasons, compellng reasons, to leave "the faith" behind. It is doubtful that we will be reconvinced.

[dr_funkenstein]

God gives plenty of evidence {the creation} for His existence, yet, you still do not believe. That is what I call "letting your feelings rule" and being irrational.

 

So you look at the world around you, think to yourself "gee there's a lot of complexity here" and because you can't explain how it came to be you simply insert magic to explain the origins, is that it?

 

And you call us irrational.

 

The universe is not evidence of a creator any more than a snowflake is evidence of a giant snowflake factory in the sky.

[Piprus]

Scott, I will give you credit. You're a hardcore, unswerving, diehard, rip-snortin', hellfireandbrimstonegoddamnit fundamentalist. Reason, common sense, and evidence means absolutely nothing to you. Your feelings and emotions rule. You are confronted with rational, basic, common sense arguments, real historic evidence, and in reply simply reinterpret the myths you are so convinced are real.

 

So, you've said you plan to be a minister. You're well on the way. You're convinced the great con of all time isn't really a con, so you're lined up well to perpetrate it. No doubt you'll have a following among the gullible, the innocent, and the desperate. Perhaps you'll even make a lot of money at it. Enjoy it, while you can. Because there's no eternal Disneyland on the other side.

 

Now this is a post I find to be interesting. You say I {and I've heard this said of other Christians too} am unreasonable and lack common sense. Well, this is the way we see you. God gives plenty of evidence {the creation} for His existence, yet, you still do not believe. That is what I call "letting your feelings rule" and being irrational.

 

Yes, I plan to be in the ministry. I am not on earth to deceive the gullible or desperate. I am here to lead people to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

 

Scott: Once again you twist what I have said. I did not say you are unreasonable and lack common sense. I said that reason and common sense mean nothing to you, within the context of these threads. That part should have been understood. Once again, you're deflecting the focus, and turning my words into a glittering generality. In the context of everyday human life, I have no reason to believe that you are unreasonable or lack common sense. But in terms of your self-assumed position as a christian apologist, you definitely do not respond to arguments made by myself and others based on reason and common sense, you respond from your own feelings and emotions. Now...if, as you say, the god gives plenty of evidence for his existence, I'm not seeing that, at least as you do. From my perspective it would be like looking at a shiny new BMW and saying..."oh, it's so beautiful, so powerful, so fast...it could only have been built by a god!" Can you understand that? Your belief is an emotional response, not allowing for any alternatives, and your answer to any refutations of your gut belief seems to be, "don't confuse me with facts".

 

And another one of your twists, Scott...where did I use the word "deceive" in relationship to your chosen career? I said you would have a following. Your response, Scott, again from your emotions and not from the facts, reveals your unconscious thinking.

 

You're interesting.

[monsterfeets]

Even if the universe was giving me evidence that there were a god who had to have designed it (which it doesn't), there would still be the question of "which God"? I don't see "Made by Biblegod" written anywhere on the planet, do you? (ohoho mabe it is hidden on the moon!) No, the only "evidence" of that is within the Bible itself which has no more credibility than any other holy book or religion's creation story.

 

When I look at the world I see evidence that the human race is a creative and intuitive species that is, unfortunately, still largely afraid of the unknown, and as a result has created superstition. When I look at the vastness of the universe, I see no reason to think that it has any concern for us whatsoever. This bothers some people and it's mostly a selfish desire to preserve one's sense of self, which is pointless. Our 'selves' are just a result of our sensory input and experiences in life and they change and die and are reborn so many times it'd make a Hindu deity's head spin. We're not the same person from year to year, or even day to day in some cases. The idea that any of us will perservere forever is rediculous, because after eternities upon eternities we wouldn't be that person anymore.

[Astreja]

The punishment fits the crime. When we sin {yes, even a "little white lie"} we are stained with it forever, or unless we are cleansed.

Then your god must really be stained, what with the lies it told to Adam and Eve; the drowning of untold millions in the flood; the massacre of the Amakelites; and premeditated murder-by-torture of its own son.

 

...but in reality, His ways are simply not our ways, and we need to accept it.

If your god's ways are not ours, and if we are incapable of understanding (despite having consumed that Magic Apple), what the Hel are we doing basing our morality on its ways???

 

And this is obviously some strange new usage of "in reality" that I wasn't previously aware of.

 

If God just created people He knew would go to heaven, that would not allow Him to grant freewill to His creation.

So instead, this allegedly omnipotent being decides that eternal torture is better than lack of free will. What a pile of steaming camel crap. (And what an insult to any gods that may be out there.)

[OnceConvinced]

God created a place of torment for the devil and his angels, not for us. Then, we sinned, and because God must judge sin, hell was going to be our eternal home, along with Satan.

So that makes it ok?

 

Millions more people will end up there than demons. God must have made a mistake if he thought it was just going to be for Satan and his demons. Come on now. Get real, God knew full well that it was going to be for Humans too. He is omnipotent remember? God shouldn't have needed to make a way out, because there should never have been a way in to begin with! Hell is a creation of either a sick twisted God or a sick twisted man.

 

Scott, this issue with freewill is a crock. Like someone else said here on this page, lack of freewill would be a far better option than eternity in hell. I'd rather live through life without a free will than go to hell. And how do you suppose God is going to deal with the free will issue in heaven? Make us all robots? Or maybe because Satan is gone, there will be no more sin. In which case just getting rid of Satan in the first place would have been the ideal situation (and the most just). But no, instead he let Satan do his thing knowing full well he would drag millions to hell with him.

[OnceConvinced]

 

Now this is a post I find to be interesting. You say I {and I've heard this said of other Christians too} am unreasonable and lack common sense. Well, this is the way we see you.

 

Yeah and it was the way I saw athiests and non-christians too until I started to open my mind. Remember most of us were in your shoes at one point. We were once the "we" you talk about. One of the reasons I stayed around this site was becuase of how reasonable, sensible and logical the arguments were.... as opposed to Christian websites where you get the same wishy washy, close minded arguments all the time - arguments that always come back to what the bible says, never what common sence and logic says. To be a christian you have to be prepared to block out reality and have total blind faith in the bible. I know because I was one. You have to switch off to anything that goes against what the bible says. That is not reasonable, nor is it sensible.

[mwc]

God created a place of torment for the devil and his angels, not for us. Then, we sinned, and because God must judge sin, hell was going to be our eternal home, along with Satan.

So that makes it ok?

 

Millions more people will end up there than demons. God must have made a mistake if he thought it was just going to be for Satan and his demons. Come on now. Get real, God knew full well that it was going to be for Humans too. He is omnipotent remember? God shouldn't have needed to make a way out, because there should never have been a way in to begin with! Hell is a creation of either a sick twisted God or a sick twisted man.

Isn't it amazing how linear of thought bible god was when he was conjuring all this up? "Duh, I think I'll make a place for Satan and pals since once I make them I know they'll betray me and instead of just erasing them from existance, since that would be wrong, I'll just torture them forever and ever." Then after he does all this and the whole snake in the garden thing happens. "Oh no! Now my lovable little human pets that I love have turned on me too. I guess I'll toss them into the fiery lake, even though I only made it for Satan and pals. If only I could have forseen all of these tragic events."

 

The level of intellectual dishonesty needed to make this argument is unbelievable. Is YHWH omniscient or not? If yes, then hell was for everyone in that one and only thought YHWH ever had. If no, then why are we discussing this creature at all?

 

Scott, this issue with freewill is a crock. Like someone else said here on this page, lack of freewill would be a far better option than eternity in hell. I'd rather live through life without a free will than go to hell. And how do you suppose God is going to deal with the free will issue in heaven? Make us all robots? Or maybe because Satan is gone, there will be no more sin. In which case just getting rid of Satan in the first place would have been the ideal situation (and the most just). But no, instead he let Satan do his thing knowing full well he would drag millions to hell with him.

True enough. If we were robots...would we care? Xians argue that free will is so damn important but it's all for the big man. He wants us to love him for him. He doesn't give two shits that we have free will because free will is important for us to have. So xians argue that free will is some big favor that sky daddy did for us when, as old Paul argues about the OT law, it simply condemns us. Without free will we wouldn't be screwed. Gee...thanks but no thanks. I'd rather be a happy robot...oh, wait, that's heaven and that's reserved for the self-lobotomized.

 

mwc

[mwc]

Let me explain. God cannot have love without justice. They go hand in hand. God cannot just let people live lawless and rebellious, then let them go to heaven. Because of His love He wants to allow us to go to heaven and be with Him.

I just had to say this is simply rediculous. Your use of the word "cannot," if there is a god like you claim, simply puts you in a major bad way and you'd better start a-prayin' for forgiveness now. You don't get to dictate what god can or cannot be or do. However, since this god is not your cannot does not matter. However love does not require justice. I don't know how you've reached this conclusion.

 

God created a place of torment for the devil and his angels, not for us.

This is what I want to talk about though. I assume you have the citations to back this claim? I am particularly interested in OT references but I'll take all you've got. Oh, and I doubt you'll try (since I can't think of any) but I'm not looking for anything like misread OT "prophecies" like the whole thing to king Nebuchanezzar (sp?) that xians try to attribute to a non-existant "Lucifer." Thanks much.

 

mwc

[SkepticOfBible]

If you'd like to discuss whether or not Jesus is the Christ, I would be glad to discuss it with you in another thread.

 

no thanks. I have looked at the case where Christians present arguements for Jesus being the Messiah and the arguements presented by Skeptics and Jews against it.

 

In the end the Christians lose. Are you even aware of the Jewish position on this?

 

We already had a discussion about various "proof text" discussion here

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=4151

 

None of them stand to scrutiny. In fact there are a number of prophecies which as made up, ie no scripture exist in the "old Testament"

 

The first problem which goes against the Jesus is the Genealogies itself. Till date no christian has been able to resolve the problem. You may try here

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=4541

 

6. Adam and Eve commited the first sin by disobeying God.

 

The Jews and the Bible says otherwise. Like MWC says, there is no SIN thre. There is no such thing as "original sin" in Judaism.

 

I am surprised you did not take up the challenge I posed, since you are adament in debating unbelievers.

 

http://www.virtualyeshiva.com/counter/difference.swf

 

 

The punishment fits the crime. When we sin {yes, even a "little white lie"} we are stained with it forever, or unless we are cleansed.

Then explain Moses, David, Elijah and all the other major OT characters. God had no problem accepting them despite their well published sins, so how are we different.

[Vigile]

Now this is a post I find to be interesting. You say I {and I've heard this said of other Christians too} am unreasonable and lack common sense. Well, this is the way we see you. God gives plenty of evidence {the creation} for His existence, yet, you still do not believe. That is what I call "letting your feelings rule" and being irrational.

 

Scott, I'll let slip for the moment your question begging logical error you make when you refer to nature as "creation." For the moment I will give you the benefit of the doubt (though the doubt is huge) and let you make the claim that what we see around us is truly created. Now if you can reasonably explain to me how a created universe implies your particular god, I will give you points on your claim that denial is irrational.

 

Ok, you have your assignment. Your turn.

[Checkmate]

So...Let me see if I have this straight...

 

1. Scott claims that Christianity is the Truth™.

2. Scott claims that the Bible is the Word of God and that no one can be led astray if they simply follow His word by faith.

3. Scott is not in church and is currently searching for a new church to join.

4. Scott is studying to be a minister.

 

 

Obvious questions abound.

 

Scott, why are you so disatisfied with all the other churches that you CANNOT submit to any of THEIR doctrines, and why do you feel the need to seperate yourself from them and start your own show?

 

By seperating yourself from THEM, you have declared that THEY have it "wrong". Even though THEY use the Bible too. So, what makes THEM "wrong" and YOU "right"? They've been doing this a lot longer than you. They have Bibles and faith and the Holy Spirit just like you. How can you say that THEY are wrong? (Even your Bible says that new believers should NOT be leaders, because they are vulnerable to pride and error. You're both young and new.)

 

Don't bother trying to deny the fact that you're judging your brethren. (I know what I'm talking about, because I did the exact same thing you're doing before I apostasized and became an atheist.) If you didn't think they were wrong, then you'd be able to go into ANY church and be happy. You're church hopping and church shopping to find just the right human ideals about god that tickles you best. But since you haven't found what pleases YOU, you've cut yourself off from the flock to "do it right." (I.E. The others have got it "wrong". Which means that THEY are deceived and have deceived others, including you. So how can you say you've got anything "right"? The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.)

 

This is a ringing condemnation against Christianity. The multitude of arguing doctrines and beliefs amongsts believers. Since each of YOU can find fault with each other, why should it amaze you that we non-believers don't believe ANY of you? Every time one of you starts a New Church, seperate from the rest, you tell the watching world that you believe your religion has had it wrong for the preceeding 2,000 years.

 

Congratulations for proving Christianity is a joke.

[J.S.]

So...Let me see if I have this straight...

 

1. Scott claims that Christianity is the Truth.

2. Scott claims that the Bible is the Word of God and that no one can be led astray if they simply follow His word by faith.

3. Scott is not in church and is currently searching for a new church to join.

4. Scott is studying to be a minister.

 

 

Obvious questions abound.

 

Scott, why are you so disatisfied with all the other churches that you CANNOT submit to any of THEIR doctrines, and why do you feel the need to seperate yourself from them and start your own show?

 

By seperating yourself from THEM, you have declared that THEY have it "wrong". Even though THEY use the Bible too. So, what makes THEM "wrong" and YOU "right"? They've been doing this a lot longer than you. They have Bibles and faith and the Holy Spirit just like you. How can you say that THEY are wrong? (Even your Bible says that new believers should NOT be leaders, because they are vulnerable to pride and error. You're both young and new.)

 

Don't bother trying to deny the fact that you're judging your brethren. (I know what I'm talking about, because I did the exact same thing you're doing before I apostasized and became an atheist.) If you didn't think they were wrong, then you'd be able to go into ANY church and be happy. You're church hopping and church shopping to find just the right human ideals about god that tickles you best. But since you haven't found what pleases YOU, you've cut yourself off from the flock to "do it right." (I.E. The others have got it "wrong". Which means that THEY are deceived and have deceived others, including you. So how can you say you've got anything "right"? The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.)

 

This is a ringing condemnation against Christianity. The multitude of arguing doctrines and beliefs amongsts believers. Since each of YOU can find fault with each other, why should it amaze you that we non-believers don't believe ANY of you? Every time one of you starts a New Church, seperate from the rest, you tell the watching world that you believe your religion has had it wrong for the preceeding 2,000 years.

 

Congratulations for proving Christianity is a joke.

 

Hold up! You ask me a question, then you give me the answer? Ask me a question, then shut up if you really want to know. You have no idea why I am looking for a new church, and it's none of your business. I may be 19, but I have studied the Bible for as long as I can remember. I know the difference between truth and error. The reason I am switching churches has nothing to do with this. By the way, people who are young cannot be leaders? Maybe you should check out the two letters Paul wrote to Timothy.

[NotBlinded]

The reason is irrelevant. It's the raw numbers that matter. If the reason is love and the goal is as many as possible but the head count in heaven is 50 and the count in hell is 50,000,000,000,000 then no matter what reason(s) you can come up with the facts of the matter are that jesus failed and Satan succeeded. Unless, of course, jesus and Satan are one and the same. Then the goal to send people to hell are their universal mission. Jesus came, pretending to be the "saviour" the "christ" when he is also the "anti-christ" the "anti-saviour." He turned people from salvation to damnation. Quite the trick and the numbers pan out. Jesus will send more people to hell than any one thing in all of history and his alter ego Satan/the devil will take the blame. YHWH just sits on his ass since he only cares about the Jews anyhow and has only said so all along. If anyone else wants to worship him then he's all for it, and will accept them, but he's not forcing anyone...until his earthly human Messiah shows up and does all that Jeremiah 31 stuff.

But mwc,

 

If the situation was reversed and more people were drawn to the fundamental understanding of Christ, then where would the satisfaction be to the egos of the adherents? How could they puff up and say something like this?

 

...only those who have trusted in Jesus Christ alone as their Lord and Savior and have repented of their sins are made children of God.

Logic be damned!

 

You know if everyone felt this way, they wouldn't be special at all. This is why Scott loves it so...it bolsters his ego. Oh, he may say that everyone is able to avoid hell but he doesn't mean it nor does he want it. Where would his pride and joy be if he weren't able to look at those 50,000,000,000,000 people in hell and feel a rush while he shouts, "I told ya so!"? The twists and turns the church uses for corruption were, and continues to be, a pyschological marvel!

 

This crap makes me sick and Scott is just regurgating the same vile nonsense over and over no matter how many brilliant posts are made to him. Sad and disgusting...

[Checkmate]

Hold up! You ask me a question, then you give me the answer? Ask me a question, then shut up if you really want to know. You have no idea why I am looking for a new church, and it's none of your business. I may be 19, but I have studied the Bible for as long as I can remember. I know the difference between truth and error. The reason I am switching churches has nothing to do with this. By the way, people who are young cannot be leaders? Maybe you should check out the two letters Paul wrote to Timothy.

Yes, Scott. I ask and I answer. Why? Because (as you've just demonstrated) YOU never answer my questions. You just spit and pop some drivel, because I stepped on your toes and showed you your error. Note that you STILL didn't bother answering. Instead you just got ANGRY with me.

 

And, if YOU knew the scriptures, you would KNOW that I already KNOW Timothy. Which is why I said what I said to you earlier. Dickhead.

 

But, in light of what you've just ranted above, let us take a closer look at 1 Timothy 3.

 

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;

3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous;

4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence

5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?);

6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.

7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

The bolded text is proof positive that YOU are disqualified to preach or teach ANYONE ANYTHING.

 

You are contentious and rude and ignorant and prideful and you have a shitty witness amongst unbelievers. (We ALL think you're a nitwit who should go fuck yourself. No respect at all for Scotty-poo.)

 

Way to go, dickweed. If this is the best you can bring to the table then maybe you should go back to church and learn some humiliation and submit to someone who knows better.

[NotBlinded]

My question is. If God doesn't want anyone to go to hell (and I assume he doesn't?) why did he bother making this whole mess in the first place? I just don't understand. Is the handful of people who will get into heaven and freely choose to love God worth the suffering of tens of thousands times more souls in hell? Because surely he knew ahead of time just how many people wouldn't be "choosing" him. Couldn't he come up with a way that was less violent, I mean he is GOD shouldn't he be able to do anything? Like say, make it so that most people would want to love God as opposed to only a few? Wouldn't that be better for EVERYONE? Couldn't he have made it so that people don't die at all so they have all of eternity to choose to be with him so eventually everyone will come to him instead of giving us a finite time span to figure it out and after that there's no turning back?

 

Wtf D:

No monsterfeets...that would be too inclusive.

 

 

1. Listen to yourself Scott that is sickening and absurb, if you just do even a "white lie" you will go to hell for all eternity. That is injustice....that really is how can you be so blinded think thats fair justice.Listen to the exact thing you said. "Even a white lie" will get you in the eternal pressure cooker. That is not justice at all. At least the United States Prision system you get a term for your punishment depending on what you did. It just shows how unforgiving God is. You are just proving my points Scott.

Ramen,

 

I wonder what Scott would do if his mother or sister or anyone he loves came running in his house and said that they were being followed by someone that wanted to kill them? This person then breaks into his house and asks where the hell they are. What would he do? Would he lie? Or would he tell them where they are hiding...

[NotBlinded]

You are contentious and rude and ignorant and prideful and you have a shitty witness amongst unbelievers.

The Grinch steals Christians again...oops...I mean Christmas!

 

 

Hey Scott...how ironic is it that within two minutes of each other I mention pride and Mr. Grinch also mentions pride? Can you see yet that what you believe causes you to be prideful? Is that the correct way to believe?

 

I told you when you first arrived that your arrogance and pride won't fly here, but when I said that I actually thought there was a hope for you understanding me. I'm beginning to think that I was wrong.

[J.S.]

Mr Grinch, even Jesus got angry. And being Christian does not mean we are perfect. I am a new disciple, and I will be qualified to teach, in time.

 

Notblindedbytheblight, I wouldn't lie. I would protect them, myself.

 

If you mean I won't listen to you about denying me faith, you are absolutely right. The Christian faith does not cause us to be prideful. Jesus Himself was God and He was very humble. He causes us to be humble too.

[NotBlinded]

 

Maybe someday you will be able to see that what the bible teaches you about pride and what the church has instilled in you are diametrically opposed to each other. You don't see that because you won't allow yourself to question so you will continue the line of uninformed preachers that pass on the MISUNDERSTANDINGS and BIASES of the people that wrote the bible instead of trying to find out what the underlying messages are. That's the easy way Scott. Why not try being sincere and use your mind to put the pieces together? You're young and have plenty of energy don't you?

 

Look into the history of your bible. Look into the history of the Jewish religion. Look into what went into the compilation of the bible. Study the timelines. Look into the ancient historians and see what they had to say. Look into what both sides of the argument has to say about the historians.

 

Don't just accept it hook, line and sinker. You don't accept anything else like that do you? Why do you risk your entire salvation on this particular choice? Why is it so hard for you to understand that there are many books about God/s? Why is it that you are so taken with the Christian book? Have you even compared it to anything else?

 

I don't think you are risking anything other than your life here on earth and being part of the deception (either advertently or inadvertently). You know why? God doesn't belong to a story written about it by men. If it did, it would only be known within the minds of the storytellers. The minds of the storytellers are human. If this is the case, God would be known by the minds of people. That isn't so...is it? If God cannot be known by the human mind, then it follows that what people said about God were only POINTERS to that which cannot be known. Right?

 

 

 

The hope I was referring to about you being able to understand how prideful your belief leads you to be has been explaned to you by many. The only thing you have to deny is your understanding about what you believe. There are many Christians that do not feel they are any better than any other religion and that what the other people believe will not send them to hell. Why do you still claim an exclusive view that only causes pride, hatred and suffering? Don't tell me it's in the bible before you research the history of the book itself.

[Checkmate]

Bullshit, Scott. "Be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." Yours is just a convenient dodge. If you confess that you're young yet, then you aren't qualified to be teaching US today, are you? Go away and learn something before you go shooting your mouth off.

 

"Even Jesus got angry"? Yes he did. (With the Pharisees, and abusers of the Temple. NOT with people seeking an audience and answers.) He also performed miracles and said that YOU could do likewise. Why is it that you can emulate his anger, but not his miracles? I find this extremely enlightening.

 

I want to return to your previous diatribe, where you told me to "shut up" and let you "answer". You didn't answer, did you? In fact, you told me that you WOULD NOT answer. You told me that your church attendance is none of my business.

 

Bullshit. You MADE it my business the very moment that YOU made it an issue. Just like you made your AGE an issue.

 

You're a barely 19-year old KID, who doesn't go to church. I have two 15-yr old KIDS, who DO go to church. What the fuck makes you think that I, a 47-yr old MAN, who was formerly a preacher, teacher, elder and evangelist should listen to YOU with your shoddy-assed credentials? You're a CHILD, barely four years older than my own. Explain to me WHY I should waste my time even considering taking anything YOU say seriously?

 

You're damn skippy you'd better answer my questions. And you'd better learn how to communicate your ideas more like "Jesus" and less like a pimply-faced, snot who just got through playing video games and watching Sponge Bob Squarepants.

 

Not perfect? Then go become "perfect" before you try to correct the rest of us. You need "time" to get it right? Fine. Take that time and stop looking like an idiot TODAY. You do a great disservice to your so-called "lord" with this shitty testimony.

[sithprincess]

Wow. All I can say is "Wow". This was ME, not very long ago. Seeing it from the other side...well, no wonder it's so hard to get people to convert. The verse in the Bible that tells believers to be "always ready to give an account for the hope that is in you" is virtually impossible to fulfill....no matter how they twist it and make excuses, it just doesn't make sense...and I just can't believe that I once thought the biblical god was so merciful and good... If there's a god, there's no way it can be like that... I'm not saying people should not be held accountable for our actions, but burning someone forever is absolutely not just...if I can see that and everyone ELSE here can see that, I guess we're more compassionate than god. Tell me where that makes sense...

 

In the meantime, let's look at the biblical god's justice:

 

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (King James Version)

18If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

 

19Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

 

20And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

 

21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

 

Leviticus 20:13 (King James Version)

 

13If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

 

Numbers 31:17-18 (King James Version)

 

17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

 

18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

 

2 Kings 2:23-24 (King James Version)

 

23And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

 

24And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

 

'Nuff said...

[Ramen666]

HeY Scott LOOK VERSES IN THE BIBLE, God is good, God is your pal. Well you would be good friends with Hitler then because they are almost the same people. Except one has magical powers that can't do shit.

 

 

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

 

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

 

 

 

Kill Witches

 

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

 

 

 

Kill Homosexuals

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

 

 

 

Kill Fortunetellers

 

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

 

 

 

Death for Hitting Dad

 

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

 

 

 

Death for Cursing Parents

 

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

 

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

 

 

 

Death for Adultery

 

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

 

 

 

Death for Fornication

 

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

 

 

 

Death to Followers of Other Religions

 

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

 

 

 

Kill Nonbelievers

 

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

 

 

 

Kill False Prophets

 

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

 

 

 

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

 

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

 

 

 

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

 

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

 

 

 

Kill Followers of Other Religions.

 

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

 

 

 

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

 

 

 

Death for Blasphemy

 

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

 

 

 

Kill False Prophets

 

1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

 

 

 

AND NOW KILLING WOMAN IN CHILDREN EVEN:

 

 

Kill Sons of Sinners

 

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

 

 

 

God Will Kill Children

 

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

 

 

 

Kill Men, Women, and Children

 

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

 

 

 

God Kills all the First Born of Egypt

 

And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

 

 

 

Kill Old Men and Young Women

 

"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)

 

(Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)

 

 

 

God Will Kill the Children of Sinners

 

If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)

 

 

 

More Rape and Baby Killing

 

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

[Kuroikaze]

nice post, but you know scott will just come back with some drivel about how god's ways are not our ways so some how baby killing is moral when god does it