Is Hell Fair?

[Legion]

It's really pointless to debate anymore

1. If we show him a contradiction he says, "we haven't studied enough because god's word can't contradict itself

2. If we say that this isn't possible he says, "god is supernatural he can do anything

3. Everything else he either skips the post, dismiss without information to back his claim, or quotes the bible

 

I give up

 

I have pretty much come to the same conclusion Taylor. Scott is young however. He will discover soon enough that life is not as simple as he supposes. I think that he has a relatively good mind but I also think he will waste it if he devotes himself to apologetics. I wish that I could persuade him to take an interest in biology.

[J.S.]

It's really pointless to debate anymore

1. If we show him a contradiction he says, "we haven't studied enough because god's word can't contradict itself

2. If we say that this isn't possible he says, "god is supernatural he can do anything

3. Everything else he either skips the post, dismiss without information to back his claim, or quotes the bible

 

I give up

 

I said I haven't studied enough to answer your questions that seem like biblical contradictions.

And I don't skip posts. If I don't reply to one it's either because I missed it, it's insulting, or it's just not serious.

 

I have pretty much come to the same conclusion Taylor. Scott is young however. He will discover soon enough that life is not as simple as he supposes. I think that he has a relatively good mind but I also think he will waste it if he devotes himself to apologetics. I wish that I could persuade him to take an interest in biology.

 

Well then, I'm pretty much wasted because I'm going into the ministry

 

Tell me, do you honestly believe that there is absolutely, positively, no chance of the ezistence of God, whatsoever?

[Legion]

I don't think that I can disprove the existence of God Scott. Nor do I have any interest in doing so. I feel like people, you included, have the unalienable right to believe what you wish to believe. These days I am far more interested in things biological. Maybe one of these days I will actually understand people. But as of now I can claim no such understanding.

[roman]

I hope that you guys are serious about giving up on this annoying Xian fool. I join you. I give up, also. He is insincere and fake. He has no business here but for the enjoyment of the actual person behind him who invented this persona. I am through.

[Ouroboros]

I said I didn't know. I stated a possibility, not a Scriptural fact. Some Christians have seen heaven. For instance, Stephan. Stephan saw heaven opened as he was about to die. John the Revelator saw heaven opened in a vision. People today have seen Jesus in visions and dreams, which goes with the prophecy "Your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams" {Acts 2:17}. Some have seen heaven in NDE's. I don't know where heaven is though.

Muhammad saw heaven too. And he saw Jesus, Abraham and the whole lot of the apostles and God himself. I guess by the Christians stipulation an eyewitness account is so trustworthy that it leads to that we must assume it to be true that Muhammad did interact with God and gave humanity the ultimate "holy book"... or is there another explanation that both explains Muhammed's experience and Stephan's? (I think his "journey" is called Mi'raj.)

[Ramen666]

Ok J.S. isn't Scott because he is talking about Scott. Ok I am no longer confused.

[Legion]

Ok J.S. isn't Scott because he is talking about Scott. Ok I am no longer confused.

 

Ramen I believe that J.S. is Scott. Look a couple posts above us here. He claims to be Scott.

[J.S.]

Yep, I'm Scott. That's what the "S" stands for.

 

I hope that you guys are serious about giving up on this annoying Xian fool. I join you. I give up, also. He is insincere and fake. He has no business here but for the enjoyment of the actual person behind him who invented this persona. I am through.

 

Alright, and how might you know that?

[Alice]

Yep, I'm Scott. That's what the "S" stands for.

 

I hope that you guys are serious about giving up on this annoying Xian fool. I join you. I give up, also. He is insincere and fake. He has no business here but for the enjoyment of the actual person behind him who invented this persona. I am through.

 

Alright, and how might you know that?

 

Scott - can you see how the way you are presenting yourself could lead to people concluding that you are insincere and fake?

 

Have you just missed my every attempt to engage with you? (and there have been several, in various threads)

 

Changing your name and adopting your new sig line (which is very funny) makes a 'big reveal' seem imminent.

[KT45]

I said I haven't studied enough to answer your questions that seem like biblical contradictions.

And I don't skip posts. If I don't reply to one it's either because I missed it, it's insulting, or it's just not serious.

Then please open up your damn mailbox or answer your mail so people can tell you that you skipped their topics!! I wasn't insulting you on the "Are you christian enough to kill your relatives topic" so you have no reason not to post there. If you run across a contradiction then by all means copy and paste from some apologetic website since they are so wise and have figured everything out.

 

Tell me, do you honestly believe that there is absolutely, positively, no chance of the ezistence of God, whatsoever?

I've talked to you for a while. I know that when you say God you don't mean god in general you mean Yahweh, the god of abraham. As for him I am absolutely, positively believe there is no chance that he exist.

 

Now if you do mean some kind of creator and not just one exlusive to your religion then I have no reason to believe it exist just like I have no reason to believe Zeus exist.

 

Oh and I forgot to add one to my list.

1. If we show him a contradiction he says, "I haven't studied enough but god's word can't contradict itself. So we have to study until it works out"

2. If we say that this isn't possible he says, "god is supernatural he can do anything

3. Everything else he either skips the post, dismiss without information to back his claim, or quotes the bible

4. If we show him similarities or bring up other religions he says "that's not what I believe. My bible is true because it says it's true"

5. If all else fails, start preaching

 

Again it's impossible to have a logical debate with a guy who does these. At this point we are just beating a dead horse. You have no desire to discuss anything at all and have shown no desire to learn. If I'm wrong then by all means tell me what you did learn about us? But arguing with you is indeed pointless. I'm done with you.

 

Well good luck for anyone who wishes to continue to talk to him

[Crunk Bishop]

Scott,

 

 

if you love "666,"

 

you'll love the alternate Number of the Beast "616."

 

http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/POxy/beast616.htm

 

In papyrus Oxyrhyncus, a fairly faithful New Testament manuscript found in Egypt (on which the best translations of Luke and Paul's letters are based), the number of the Beast is "616." What do you think about this?

[J.S.]

Alice, I created a new account because my old one messed up. I couldn't check my messages or update my profile.

 

Taylork, as I said to Alice, I couldn't check my messages, so I made a new account. I don't believe the Bible just because it says it's true. If I did that, I would have no reason not to believe the Koran or any other religion. I believe in Christ by the Holy Spirit, and I have felt His presence alot in my life. While I admit, as I said on another topic, my mind doubts and wonders if He exists, my heart knows He does by the witness of God the Holy Spirit. I am willing to have any debates or discussions you would like, but don't be offended if I say "I don't know" to something, because I don't know everything. I'm sorry if I "preached" too much. That is a bad habbit of mine. But I am open to have any dicussions or debates you, or anyone else, has to bring to the table.

 

 

 

 

 

Crunk Bishop, I don't know what to think about it. I've heard it before though. I don't think knowing the number of the Beast is as important as being aware that the Beast will arise. I mean, Christians should be aware of any leader who arises with a "world peace plane" or issues a mark of allegiance.

[white_raven23]

Taylork, as I said to Alice, I couldn't check my messages, so I made a new account. I don't believe the Bible just because it says it's true. If I did that, I would have no reason not to believe the Koran or any other religion. I believe in Christ by the Holy Spirit, and I have felt His presence alot in my life. While I admit, as I said on another topic, my mind doubts and wonders if He exists, my heart knows He does by the witness of God the Holy Spirit.

 

Take a few psychology classes. Read up on Cognitive Dissonance. Take a Physiological Psych class to learn about the neurotransmitters (the chemical cocktails) readily available in the brain. These are what actually make a person high....the illegal drugs that effect them do so merely by increasing their production. All you need for a god sensation, or god high is in your own head.

 

 

 

Crunk Bishop, I don't know what to think about it. I've heard it before though. I don't think knowing the number of the Beast is as important as being aware that the Beast will arise. I mean, Christians should be aware of any leader who arises with a "world peace plane" or issues a mark of allegiance.

 

I think you've read The Left Behind series too many times.

[J.S.]

I don't think the "God sensation" is only in my head. I've seen and heard too many things to believe that, half of which is the testimony of others.

 

Oh, and I don't agree with the Lrft Behind Series, although they're good books.

[Ouroboros]

I don't think the "God sensation" is only in my head.

Where is it then, if it's not in your head?

 

I've seen and heard too many things to believe that, half of which is the testimony of others.

You say "seen and heard", where is that processed? How does light and sound gets into your "soul"? Through what media and receptors does light and sound travel and get received?

 

Oh, and I don't agree with the Lrft Behind Series, although they're good books.

That's good. It doesn't sound like you're one of the Dominion Christians then who wants to take over America.

[Thackerie]

I don't think the "God sensation" is only in my head.

Where is it then, if it's not in your head?

 

Scott or JackS or whatever he's calling himself today can answer for himself (or, most likely, not), but after reading a few of Amy Marie's post, I suspect her "god sensation" occurs somewaht lower in the anatomy.

[Darkside]

[NotBlinded]

I think this is an interesting issue. Christians will always say that the reason God gave Adam and Eve the option of sinning is because he wanted their genuine love; he didn't want them to be forced into obedience like robots. And yet, at the end of the day, this is exactly what their heaven is supposed to be like. Obviously nobody will have the option of sinning, so God will end up with a bunch of robots just like he would have had if he had created robots in the beginning. The only difference is that in addition to his robots, he'll have billions of people in hell. So the only real reason God would have given Adam and Eve the option of sinning is because he wanted souls to feed the flames of hell for a testimony of his holiness. Glory to God!

 

Funny how something that is not literally true eats itself up when taken as the literal truth! That was just too good. That makes the whole process kind of silly doesn't it? I never thought of it that way...I'll remember this one.

[NotBlinded]

The AntiChrist will not be like Sadam Hussein. The world will accept him because he will have great plans for peace. The world wants peace. He will not come to the earth as a dictator, but as a man who will bring peace to the earth. After this, whether he will actually be killed or not, he will seem to have a head wound, then be ressurected to life. All the world, save those who have their names written in the Book of Like, will be deceived. Then the False Prophet will issue the mark of allegiance. Would you not follow someone who brought peace to the entire world and performed many great supernatual signs? Only after he has deceived the whole world into believing he is Deity, will he proceed to kill anyone and everyone who will not follow him. Yes, the world will follow this "man of peace". They will also think it is right that anyone who does not follow him must die. I find this interesting to think about; People who are not Christians or exChristians don't believe us because God is something we cannot see. Yet, when this man will come up with all types of great power, they will think he is God, and we will be called crazy because we believe in a God who we cannot see, yet this guy is doing miracles.

Once again Scott...

(Scott @ Sep 5 2006, 01:51 PM)

OnceConvinced, everything will come to pass that is in the Bible by coincendence? So, if a world leader arises, people worship him as God, and then began to persecute Christians, it will all be a coincendence?

Wow...sound just like what happened in Rome. Caesar was worshipped as a god...they even sacraficed animals to him and called him Lord.

The main challenge was to the lordship of Caesar, which, though certainly "political" was also profoundly "religious". Caesar demanded worship as well as "secular" obedience; not just taxes, but sacrifices. He was well on the way to becoming the supreme divinity in the Greco-Roman world, maintaining his vast empire not simply by force, though there was of course plenty of that, but by the development of a flourishing religion that seemed to be trumping most others either by absorption or by greater attraction. Caesar, by being a servant of the state, had provided justice and peace to the whole world. He was therefore to be hailed as Lord, and trusted as Savior.

 

Cool huh? I wonder if Rome persecuted any Christians...hmmm.

 

From: Paul's Gospel and Caesar's Empire

Scott...there are many that believe that the number 666 translates to the name Nero Ceasar. It was probably a translation error that made it 666 where it should have been 616 which meant Nero Ceasar:

The fragment supports the reading of some Greek New Testament manuscripts that read 616 instead of 666. Why would someone making a copy of the Revelation scroll make such a number change? "Perhaps the change was intentional, seeing that the Greek form Neron Caesar written in Hebrew characters (nrwn qsr) is equivalent to 666, whereas the Latin form Nero Caesar (nrw qsr) is equivalent to 616." A Latin copyist might have thought that 666 was an error because Nero Caesar did not add up to 666 when transliterated into Latin. He then changed 666 to 616 to conform to the Latin rendering since it was generally accepted that Nero was the Beast. In either case, a Hebrew transliteration nets 666, while a Latin spelling nets 616. Nero was the "man" and either 666 or 616 was his number.

From The Mark of the Beast—666 or 616?

Note what I bolded Scott. Revelation has already happened in ancient Rome.

 

This site is a religious site, so you can't claim that it is just an atheist's view. I don't even adhere to most of their thoughts, so you would probably like it... If not...here is another one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_Beast

[KT45]

But I am open to have any dicussions or debates you, or anyone else, has to bring to the table.

Alright lets start from the top. We've gotten way off track so I'll try to get it back on

 

Is "Scott's" Hell Fair?

These are all the post where Scott, Now J.S., describes Hell

Post # 125

Japedo, everyone has to accept a gift before it can be of any use. We have to believe in Jesus to wash away our sins to be saved. We have to accept His Gift. Doubt is not a sin. I don't recall where, but in the Bible a man said to Jesus "I believe. Help my unbelief!". So, it's more of a weakness than a sin.

 

Post #84

I never said it was literal, physical fire. The fire may be symbolic for pain and suffering because you can never get back to God. You are cut off from all love, all peace, and all joy. No body on earth is completely seperated from God. For the unbelievers, complete seperation from God comes after death.

 

Post # 119

That's why I'm beginning to think those in the Lake of Fire will just burn into nothingness. Eternal suffering seems strange to me. And God has no problem with us questioning. In the Bible Jesus says to sit down and see if you can really follow Him to the finish or not. If you can't follow Him to the finish then don't even begin.

 

Post #82 The second death is not actually non-existence, it is being seperated from God forever. When each of us die, we will stand before God at judgment {Hebrews 9:27}. God {Jesus} will judge us and if we are cleansed from our sins by the blood of Christ, we will be allowed into heaven. If we are not cleansed, we will be sentenced to hell. Now, while this is a judgment, they will be judged again at the Great White Throne and will be sentenced to the Lake of Fire. The first judgment is the first phase of the second death. You are awaiting the last and final judgment, where you will finally and formally be seperated from God forever, and be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

So basically, if you reject Christ's gift you are sent to The lake of fire at judgement day because we aren't cleansed in the blood of Jesus. Now the lake of fire isn't necessarily fire but the horrible feeling you get when you are separated from god. But it also is fire because the person's soul will burn to nothingness (doesn't make sense that it is fire then it isn't but whatever). Because the soul burns up it isn't a infinite punishment for a finite crime but instead a finite crime for a finite crime. Is this what your definition of hell is like Scott? Finally, is this version of hell fair to you?

 

-EDIT-

Oh and Scott, at the moment you say something like "I don't know" or "I haven't studied enough" then debate can no longer continue. I will assume that you have conceded and will therefore stop posting. So I suggest that in the future you just go to a website and copy and paste info you don't know or merely learn it. You are on the internet which has sufficent information at your disposal just in case "you don't know". You have no excuse for not providing information to back up your claims. Agreed?

[Ramen666]

Ever since Scott became J.S. it almost like he had matured. It is really weird I see that your are acting different. You never said " you didn'y know". Oh well as I said eariler none of my post were stupid they were scriptures,idead, that you need to think about just read the past posts and please reply to those is all I am asking Scott now of you.

[J.S.]

Alright then, back to the topic. This is why I believe Hell and the Lake of Fire is fair and just, and I have come to believe it is eternal. I'm not trying to convince you of anything or saying "You must believe this!". I am stating what I believe and the Scriptures that I believe back up my claims.

 

We sinned. We violated God's law. God is more holy than we can imagine, and He cannot be in the presence of sin. In God's kingdom, all sinners {myself included} are subject to the death penalty {Rom. 6:23}. Now, what is sin? As I said, it is violating God's law. We know what sin is by the law, or the ten commandments {Rom. 7:7}. We have all broken the commandments. At least we have broken one. The Bible says if we break one commandment, we are guilty of breaking all the commandments {James 2:10}. So, we can see that we are guilty of sin.

 

Eternal punishment was not created for us. When the devil rebelled against God with all his unholy angels, he was cast out of heaven {Rev. 12:7-12 is probably a good picture for what has happened and what will happen}. The Lake of Fire was created for them, not for us {Matt. 25:41}. However, once we sinned, we became subject to the same doom as Satan. Is God obligated to save us? No. Has He provided a way that we can be saved? Yes.

 

God is one eternal being existed in three Persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit {Matt. 28"19}

The Father sent the Son {Not against the Son's will, for He also came willingly} to the earth in human form. It is difficult for us to understand this, but Jesus was 100% Man and 100% God. He came into the darkness of the world. He taught how to love fellow man, even our enemies. He taught how we can inherit eternal life. He came to grant us eternal life. His goal, His #1 purpose for coming was to take the punishment of God for us. He didn't want us to be seperated from Him forever. The message is, He would rather die than be wiithout any of us; and He did. He took the full punishment for our sin.

While this included the mockey, the beatings, whippings, and torcher so that He is beyond recognition, this mainly was seperation from God. He was never ever seperated from God until that point, when He was on the cross, taking our punishment upon Himself {Matt. 27:46}. He died, then He rose from the dead in three days in victory over death and Hell. By simple faith in Him, for what He has done, we can be saved forever. Although, if we reject it, we will go to Hell. It's true that God doesn't send anyone to Hell. We send ourselves there. I understand that no sane person actually sits down one day and says "Hmmm, I think I want to go to Hell". However, we send ourselves there by rejecting Christ; His sacrifice for our sins.

 

At some point in our lives we are convicted by the Holy Spirit to turn to Him. The day of salvation is available only until we breathe our last breath. On the day of judgment, it is all over. Because God is love, He provided a way out of Hell for us. Because God is just, He must judge sin. However, for those who claim the sacrifice of Jesus for themselves, and fully believe in Him for salvation, they will not be judged for their sin, because Jesus took care of that. Anyway, that is why Hell is fair. It is God justice. God has provided a way out of Hell, but if we don't accept it, what is He supposed to do? Let everyone in without judging sin? No; then God wouldn't be just. So, without the sacrifice of Jesus covering us, when the time comes, we will die in our sins, and enter into Hell. I don't think I can explain it any better than that. As I said before, I'm open to any debates, discussions, or questions you bring to the table.

[KT45]

Scott, please describe hell and the punishment. How long sinners will be there, what happens to the soul and if you feel the fire is literal? This can be your opinion.

 

Also, you skipped my question again.

Oh and Scott, at the moment you say something like "I don't know" or "I haven't studied enough" then debate can no longer continue. I will assume that you have conceded and will therefore stop posting. So I suggest that in the future you just go to a website and copy and paste info you don't know or merely learn it. You are on the internet which has sufficent information at your disposal just in case "you don't know". You have no excuse for not providing information to back up your claims. Agreed?

[Mythra]

Before you can convince many of us here that hell is anything more than a bad joke, you'd have to convince us that the concept of the soul is nothing more than a silly, antiquated concept.

 

Good luck.

[KT45]

Before you can convince many of us here that hell is anything more than a bad joke, you'd have to convince us that the concept of the soul is nothing more than a silly, antiquated concept.

 

Good luck.

Mythra, you know this is too hard for Scott, J.S. or whatever his name is. I'd rather hypothetically consider that the bible god is real. Now I would like to know based on that if the punishment is actually fair? Do you think this is a good idea?

 

-Edit-

I'd also like to avoid tangents and focus on the topic only