Is Hell Fair?

[Astreja]

nice post, but you know scott will just come back with some drivel about how god's ways are not our ways...

Y'know, he never did answer my question about how we're supposed to derive human morality from the morality of a being that is incomprehensible to us. I suspect he's got me on ignore.

 

But right now I'll settle for him disobeying that rather lethal list of commandments (sayeth a woman who, to her certain knowledge, has broken at least three of them).

[Dhampir]

Dhampir, I think that was there so that they could have eaten it and live forever. Adam and Eve, however, chose to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. After this happened, if they ate of the tree of life, they probably would have lived forever. God won't let that happen until it's time. Then all those who believe in Him will be able to eat of this tree, and live forever.

But you just said that god designed us to live forever. How comes it that sin is what caused them to die, if they were going to die anyway?

I just feel like reposting this.

[mwc]

You know if everyone felt this way, they wouldn't be special at all. This is why Scott loves it so...it bolsters his ego. Oh, he may say that everyone is able to avoid hell but he doesn't mean it nor does he want it. Where would his pride and joy be if he weren't able to look at those 50,000,000,000,000 people in hell and feel a rush while he shouts, "I told ya so!"? The twists and turns the church uses for corruption were, and continues to be, a pyschological marvel!

I recently came across this quote and thought you might like it (I almost switched it into my sig in Scott's honor...it should almost be the ex-c creedo):

 

"God is the immemorial refuge of the incompetent, the helpless, the miserable. They find not only sanctuary in His arms, but also a kind of superiority, soothing to their macerated egos; He will set them above their betters." - H. L. Mencken

 

mwc

[SkepticOfBible]

Yoohoo, Scott, did you miss my last post. May I have answer, considering I have been polite with you

[OnceConvinced]

Looking at Ramen's last post there, I'm surprised there's anyone left at all in the world. You would have thought God would have wiped us all out by now. .... perhaps he's just waiting, looking forward to that day he can make us burn in hell instead.

[J.S.]

Astreja, I don't have you on ignore. We may not be able to understand alot of the things God does. That's where faith comes in. He has given us His Word, though, so that we can understand His will for us.

 

Dhampir, maybe God designed us to live forever, by that fruit. I'm not quite sure about that, but I will look into it.

 

SkepticOfBible, I'm sorry I haven't answered your post yet. I am not ignoring it. I'm studying about it every chance I get. It is true that in Old Testament prophecies, it seems as though hell is a place of sleep. Yet, in the New Testament teachings, it seems to be a place of torment.

 

OnceConviced, I heard a person say one time, the Old Testament shows us what God thinks about stuff. He sees people who practice such things as witchcraft or sexual immorality as being worthy of death. To tell you the truth, we are all worthy of death, myself included. But once we are made right in God's eyes by the blood of Christ, we are no longer worthy of death, but we are clothed in the righteousness of Christ.

 

Certainly God does not look forward to people burning in hell! If that were the case, Jesus would not have gone through all of that pain just to save us. God loves you. He wants to save you. That is His message. I do not claim to be a prophet, teacher, preacher, or any of the rest. I do believe the Bible and I know God loves you, and His love is unconditional.

[Vixentrox]

Jesus went through all that pain? A few hours of torture are NOTHING compare to what Jesus gonna do to those that don't accept his so called gift.

[J.S.]

Jesus went through all that pain? A few hours of torture are NOTHING compare to what Jesus gonna do to those that don't accept his so called gift.

 

He will not "do" anything to them. It's not His fault people go to hell. He has done all He can do. Now, it is up to us. Do we want to spend forever with the Creator who loved us so much that he died for us, or do we want Him out of our lives?

[mwc]

I know you wrote these things to others...but come on!

 

Astreja, I don't have you on ignore. We may not be able to understand alot of the things God does. That's where faith comes in. He has given us His Word, though, so that we can understand His will for us.

I thought jesus was the word? Let me check G.John...yep...seems he thinks so. So there's two words? Actually 67 words? More words but some got voted out of the canon?

 

Dhampir, maybe God designed us to live forever, by that fruit. I'm not quite sure about that, but I will look into it.

Alright, now this one really got to me. You're kidding, right? You simply couldn't crack open the bible to Genesis and get the answer in, like, 2 minutes? I've got three bibles open in browser tabs right now and I'm not looking to be a preacher. On top of all this I'm pretty sure I actually quoted the stupid verse to you the other day. I'm not going to look it up but I'm sure it's around.

 

I'm going to help you out because I'm you're number one fan Scott.

 

Genesis 3:22

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

3:23

Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

3:24

So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Looks pretty clear cut. They became like gods (morally). So, to prevent them from having eternal life (like gods) via the fruit of the tree of life, YHWH tossed them from the garden. No fruit = no eternal life. He blocked the way back into the garden with some angels and a magical flaming sword. To what? To keep them from that tree of life and eternal life. Not from the garden itself like we're all taught.

 

It's kind of funny that the posts where I actually use the bible are the ones you tend to shy away from. I'm sure you're far more familiar with the epistles than the OT but I thought everyone knew the A&E Genesis tale pretty well (it's the easiest one to find).

 

mwc

[Checkmate]

He will not "do" anything to them. It's not His fault people go to hell. He has done all He can do. Now, it is up to us. Do we want to spend forever with the Creator who loved us so much that he died for us, or do we want Him out of our lives?

Really? "Now, it is up to us"? So, the gospel according to Scott has us WORKING FOR OUR SALVATION? I'm pretty sure that St. Paul and the Protestants and the Baptists would like to speak with you, Scott.

 

Scott, you can't have it both ways. You can't say "Jesus did it ALL", AND "Now, it is up to us". The two statements are contradictory. If Jesus did it ALL, then there is nothing left for us to do.

 

(Is Jesus' "ALL" not good enough? )

 

Since I already addressed this subject elsewhere, I'll simply provide the link. Here you go - Is It Finished, or Not?.

[NotBlinded]

I recently came across this quote and thought you might like it (I almost switched it into my sig in Scott's honor...it should almost be the ex-c creedo):

 

"God is the immemorial refuge of the incompetent, the helpless, the miserable. They find not only sanctuary in His arms, but also a kind of superiority, soothing to their macerated egos; He will set them above their betters." - H. L. Mencken

 

mwc

Isn't that the awful truth! Of course, I would add: The fundamentalist's idea of... right before the quote.

[J.S.]

He will not "do" anything to them. It's not His fault people go to hell. He has done all He can do. Now, it is up to us. Do we want to spend forever with the Creator who loved us so much that he died for us, or do we want Him out of our lives?

Really? "Now, it is up to us"? So, the gospel according to Scott has us WORKING FOR OUR SALVATION? I'm pretty sure that St. Paul and the Protestants and the Baptists would like to speak with you, Scott.

 

Scott, you can't have it both ways. You can't say "Jesus did it ALL", AND "Now, it is up to us". The two statements are contradictory. If Jesus did it ALL, then there is nothing left for us to do.

 

(Is Jesus' "ALL" not good enough? )

 

Since I already addressed this subject elsewhere, I'll simply provide the link. Here you go - Is It Finished, or Not?.

 

Stop twisting my words. You know that's not what I meant. It is up to us as to whether or not we accept Him.

[LostOrFound]

Jesus went through all that pain? A few hours of torture are NOTHING compare to what Jesus gonna do to those that don't accept his so called gift.

 

He will not "do" anything to them. It's not His fault people go to hell. He has done all He can do. Now, it is up to us. Do we want to spend forever with the Creator who loved us so much that he died for us, or do we want Him out of our lives?

 

He has done all he can do? You've got to be kidding! That's it? That's ALL your god can do... spend a few hours on a cross (same thing thousands of other people did in that day) and died - for a few days out of all eternity... that's like, what? ... .00000000002 nano-seconds or less of his existence.

 

If he'd just had a little more foresight and not banish satan to the same planet he planned on putting his precious children then none of this shit would have any bearing whatsoever.

 

Think about it Scott. Would you catch a rattlesnake and keep it in your baby's room? DUH! He could've put satan and his merry band of demons on Pluto -- or, better yet, go ahead and toss their asses into the fiery pit. But, noooooooo..... this brilliant god of yours put him in the crib with his babies and then, to top it all off, he just leaves them alone together. Does this make even the slightest bit of sense to you? Think, boy, think!

 

Okay... just got back from a quick meeting - I typed the above hastily prior to going in and just want to add:

 

If you had said "He has done all HE CHOOSES to do" I would have less argument with your statement. I think that is sort of where Mr. Grinch is coming from (though I can't speak for him). Your whole concept is built upon a god who sort of made up some rules for everything and everyone, set things in motion, (without much forethought I might add) and is now a prisoner of his own rules. In some ways this coincides with Bible teachings but in others doesn't (no surprise there since the Bible is full of contradictory concepts). Have you no understanding of "sovereignty" as it is laid out in the Bible? Have you really studied Job? Have you really studied the words of Jesus as regards "his sheep" and that the father "gave them to him" and that "no man can come to the father except the spirit draws him"? Have you studied Romans 9, 10 and 11 at all?!?!?

 

You rightfully admit that you have much more studying to do. Do you forget that many of us HAVE STUDIED for many years? I have a Bachelor's from Piedmont Bible College (Independent Baptist) and would have my masters from Mid-America Theological Seminary (Memphis) if I hadn't begun questioning all the BS in the bible. Seminary profs hate questions for which they have no reasonable answers. They tied themselves up like pretzels - no, more like balls of yarn - trying to force the bible to actually make sense.

 

Keep studying, boy. Keep studying. That's how most of us ended up where we are today. One of the truths contained in the bible is "the truth shall set you free". It set me free, that's for damn sure!

[Checkmate]

Stop twisting my words. You know that's not what I meant. It is up to us as to whether or not we accept Him.

I'm not twisting anything. I'm making it clear how compartmentalized you've made your beliefs. And now I shall continue.

 

You now say it is up to us to accept Jesus? Haven't read your New Testament, have you?

 

How can we accept Jesus when he speaks in parables to confuse and blind anyone from believing? Matthew 13:13-15

 

How can we accept Jesus when it is not up to us, but up to God? Who has made some for salvation and some for destruction. Romans 9:15-23

 

How can we, being carnal, understand and accept, when only those with his Spirit can receive these things? 1 Corinthians 2:7-14

 

Y'see, Scott, it is not "up to us" to accept Jesus. (Did you even bother reading the link to my other thread?) The entire ball of wax is on "God". Don't like it? Then just do like the other Christians do. Ignore it and make up your own personal doctrine.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Scott, Grinch and LostandFound, not to mention others on here, make the important point that Christian doctrine proclaims the sovereignty of God. Search the scriptures and you'll find that there is no little corner of the universe where the will of any creature is autonomous. Nothing happens except that God foreordains it. Believe otherwise and you believe in a limited, struggling God. That's not the God of St. Paul or Isaiah or...

 

So is it cool that God foreordains some to eternal life and others to eternal destruction and torment? If you think he manifests his glory in the eternal sufferings of unbelievers, then you are standing with St. Paul, not to mention Augustine and Calvin and many others. If you think that God can't control the will of a creature, then what does the NT mean in its many discussions of predestination?

 

When I was a Calvinist I thought it was comforting that God foreordains everything, including the rebellion of the damned, but I had to do a lot of fancy footwork in my own mind and in debate with others to defend this. Eventually I came to the considered judgment that the fault lay, not in ourselves, that we can't comprehend how God is just and loving and predestines eternal suffering. The fault lies in the bible itself. The scales fell from my eyes and I saw that this doctrine is just perverted. god as depicted in scripture is less moral than most people I know. Certainly less moral than most children.

 

Throw in the Bible's self-contradictions, failure of legitimate prayers, etc. etc.

 

I really don't think Grinch twisted your words. I really think you have not yet examined your deepest beliefs.

 

I mean this out of all respect. Like many, I've been there where you are now, bro.

[Dhampir]

Dhampir, maybe God designed us to live forever, by that fruit. I'm not quite sure about that, but I will look into it.

How then is it that satan is the one that brought sin and through sin death?

[sithprincess]

Ah yes...the days of being on the other side of these arguments, and hearing my rebuttals, and thinking they really didn't sound so good, but I was RIGHT! I just can't say enough how much different things look from the other side... amazing. I just can't believe my lack of common sense!

 

The part about the OT saying how God "felt" about things like adultery and all that crap? Well not only did he feel it, he acted on it! Unless, of course, those are all just stories. But that can't be true, because the Bible is INFALLIBLE, right?

 

I gotta say, I'm going through a serious anger phase with all this. All those years of being one of those intolerant people. I so hate the person I was. As if a supreme being would honestly care if someone were born homosexual. Would they? Nope, but man would! Would a creator make women "lower" than men? Nope again, but guess who would? Yup men! Would an equal-opportunity god let men have multiple wives and whores, and allow a woman to be stoned to death for making love with a man she loved? NO NO NO NO NO! The rules of men, all of'em...

 

And the Bible does support a Calvinistic view of God. Nowhere does it say we have freewill. So he hardens some hearts so we won't accept him then laughs in our faces when we go to hell...? Super...simply..freakin'...super....

[Piprus]

I gotta say, I'm going through a serious anger phase with all this. All those years of being one of those intolerant people. I so hate the person I was. As if a supreme being would honestly care if someone were born homosexual. Would they? Nope, but man would! Would a creator make women "lower" than men? Nope again, but guess who would? Yup men! Would an equal-opportunity god let men have multiple wives and whores, and allow a woman to be stoned to death for making love with a man she loved? NO NO NO NO NO! The rules of men, all of'em...

 

Aw, Sithprincess...don't hate the person you were. You were deceived, as were so many of us. You were just human. Forgive yourself already, you're wiser now. Oh, yeah, all that bible lore was made up in the context of a patriarchal culture. They're still that way in much of that part of the world. (Ever see the movie "Osama"?) Not the word or will of any god worth so much as a blasphemy.

[Ramen666]

Sithprincess calm down ... You shouldn't hate yourself....hate the religion that taught it to you. But not yourself. You shouldn't hate yourself about it.....yes WE have been decieved but it is not our fault. It is more of the people that created the Bible's fault. That this has destroyed so many people inside, familys, countrys , wars everything that people based there life off of.

 

What you need to do is first relax and don't hate yourself.

 

The BIBLE WASN'T FOR US it was for that people of that time. The audience wasn;t us. There is nothing to be ushamed with. I use to be a believer and be in the same boat as you. I judged people for being democrat, I felt homosexuals were wrong because what I was being told. I learned though that majority isn't always right, THE REAL HATE IN THE BIBLE, That it is all created by men. GOD DID NOT WRITE THE BIBLE. Remember that....Men did Christians don't seem to get that. The vary men he cursed (what Scott says) is the same people that corrupted the Bible and made it.

[crazy-tiger]

Do we want to spend forever with the Creator who loved us so much that he died for us, or do we want Him out of our lives?

Is he still dead?

 

No? Then he didn't die for us... just "sacrificed" 3 days (3? more like 1 1/2 days) of his life.

 

 

Considering the fact he's got eternity in Heaven... it's the same kind of sacrifice as Bill Gates giving someone $1.

[Eponymic]

I gotta say, I'm going through a serious anger phase with all this. All those years of being one of those intolerant people. I so hate the person I was.

 

Nothing wrong with that. What's important is that you've figured it out now. Take solace & be happy about the fact that you succeeded in doing that. Many people don't. We're glad you did.

[sithprincess]

Well, there's always something I hate myself for, so I'll just add that to the list...

 

Where did J.S. go......?

[Piprus]

Alas, Scotty has been put on a leash again, this time by nivek. He's got a lot of posts to answer before he starts new threads, and I haven't even entered mine yet!

[Ramen666]

Wait a minue I just realized Scott says he is looking for another church. But wait a minute isn't the pastor from God telling him everything where is he . What happend did the pastor butt rape Scott or something Why is there a change of heart?

[sithprincess]

Totally off topic...but how do i change the yellow symbol under my avatar? And the saying above it? I've looked, but I can't figure it out anywhere.....