Five Questions That Christians Can't Answer

[Grandpa Harley]

That was the opening of the 7th Seal... Lordi's keyboard player is also in an Esperanto group...

[Astreja]

That was the opening of the 7th Seal... Lordi's keyboard player is also in an Esperanto group...

Ne, la sepa foko estas en mian banon jam nun. "Ork! Ork! Ork!"

[Oldjew]

Now are you going to actually attempt to answer the questions I put forth, or are you just going to continue to tap dance around them under the guise of "clarifying their meaning" like every other Christian I've talked to has?

 

I love it! That is a good one. You hit the nail on the head! However the posters on this thread seem to all be ex-Christians as the name applies a lot of them are young and not up on the bible all that much while you on the other hand are just trying to engage in starting a thread in hopes ex-Xians will try and answer the questions were they still Xians to get a satisfied answer.

 

However everyone here who had been Christians probably could not have answered them then so why would you think they could now that they are no longer theist?

 

Oh I do really understand where you are coming from but like everyone else posting here you will never get a "straight" answer because even though they are ex-Christians and were once Christians all you are going to get from them is a whole lot of different answers in the form of another question in which you will not get a direct answer.

 

Got that?

[Mad_Gerbil]

1) Which one better describes an all-loving God: a.) One that gives human beings one chance only to get it right and if you don't condemns you to an eternal hell, or b.) One that allows you multiple chances to get it right so that you can spend eternity in the best place possible?

 

I'd have to go with B on that one.

 

2) People who speak of "hell" associate it with divine punishment, but punishment is usually used as a corrective measure. How do people suffering in an eternal hell learn their lesson? Doesn't that make hell mere torture with absolutely no point to it?

 

If hell is punishment then I certainly wouldn't see any point in it.

 

3) There are thousands of different denominations in Christianity, each thinking they have it right. All other religions think that they have it right, as well. How can you be sure that you have it right, when the odds are that you are actually wrong?

 

I could be wrong.

It isn't like I've not been wrong about things before.

 

4) Where in the Bible does Jesus say that people must worship him or pray to him? Doesn't he identify himself as the "Son of Man" who was sent by the Father?

 

I follow the example of Jesus who instructed us to pray to God.

That said, if I'm not mistaken in the book of Revelation the angels around the throne of the Lamb declare that the Lamb is worthy of all glory, honor and praise. Dunno the significance of that for us in the here and now - I'm not gonna get worked up about it either way.

 

5) Jesus himself and his disciples seem to believe in reincarnation, as evidenced in Matthew 11:10-15, Matthew 17:10-13 and John 9:1-2. Why is the word of Paul in Hebrews 9:27 taken over Jesus in Christian doctrine?

 

For a person who doesn't see reincarnation in those passages there would be no discrepancy. If a person did believe Jesus taught reincarnation and they also held to Paul's teaching then there would definitely be a problem.

 

[Grandpa Harley]

You use Revelation as an authority? Oh boy... Just when I thought my opinion could get NO lower you manage to prove me wrong again... I'm soon going to need dynamite and diamond drills to get through the bed rock.

[Guest RevDDM]

This might be a good topic to pin. Every Christian I have ever posed these questions to has never been able to give me a straight answer:

 

1) Which one better describes an all-loving God: a.) One that gives human beings one chance only to get it right and if you don't condemns you to an eternal hell, or b.) One that allows you multiple chances to get it right so that you can spend eternity in the best place possible?

 

2) People who speak of "hell" associate it with divine punishment, but punishment is usually used as a corrective measure. How do people suffering in an eternal hell learn their lesson? Doesn't that make hell mere torture with absolutely no point to it?

 

3) There are thousands of different denominations in Christianity, each thinking they have it right. All other religions think that they have it right, as well. How can you be sure that you have it right, when the odds are that you are actually wrong?

 

4) Where in the Bible does Jesus say that people must worship him or pray to him? Doesn't he identify himself as the "Son of Man" who was sent by the Father?

 

5) Jesus himself and his disciples seem to believe in reincarnation, as evidenced in Matthew 11:10-15, Matthew 17:10-13 and John 9:1-2. Why is the word of Paul in Hebrews 9:27 taken over Jesus in Christian doctrine?

 

It may not be what you wanted, but I will answer your questions.

 

First:

 

"1) Which one better describes an all-loving God: a.) One that gives human beings one chance only to get it right and if you don't condemns you to an eternal hell, or b.) One that allows you multiple chances to get it right so that you can spend eternity in the best place possible?"

 

This one will be answered in the form of a question...

 

Which one describes a fair and just God, as well as an all-loving God: a.) One that bends and breaks the very rules He uses to keep His creation from falling apart, just to appease His desires, b.) one who enforces the rules so strictly that the smallest infraction can only be mended by eternal suffering, or c.) one that provides the only way out of the suffering that still conforms to the laws by which Creation exists? Remember this: in a finite existence, boundaries control what laws keep the balance, and what laws are unnecessary or too restrictive. God may have created everything else with boundaries, but that doesn't mean that there are no loop-holes in the laws that naturally exist therein. Why does God allow such loop-holes? Is He a liar? If He is the Creator, bound only by His word, then He can't possibly lie; the lie would automatically become true. Can He repent? Imagine the turmoil that would cause in the "cosmic balance". Whether you want to believe it or not - accept it or not, - no creation is absolutely sovereign. All creations co-exist. Therefore, the actions, and inactions, of one creation will directly affect another, and indirectly affect all others.

 

"2) People who speak of "hell" associate it with divine punishment, but punishment is usually used as a corrective measure. How do people suffering in an eternal hell learn their lesson? Doesn't that make hell mere torture with absolutely no point to it?"

 

In the Bible, Jesus refers to Hell as being prepared "for the Devil, and his angels"; furthermore, it tells us that Hell - like Heaven, - existed "from the foundations of the world". Hell was also meant, according to the Bible, to be a place designed to trap certain influences, so they wouldn't further corrupt His beloved creation. It is not just that Hell is a place of punishment, nor just a place of torment (which torments are carried out by the Devil and his angels, by the way); Hell is also a kind of "prison", which was designed to keep evil from infiltrating all Creation. That way, God wouldn't have to watch the very thing He loved suffer needlessly. Believe it or not, there is always a reason for everything, and most reasons are reactionary.

 

"3) There are thousands of different denominations in Christianity, each thinking they have it right. All other religions think that they have it right, as well. How can you be sure that you have it right, when the odds are that you are actually wrong?"

 

I used a combination of logic, deductive reasoning, and inductive reasoning, to come to the conclusion that only a monotheistic religion, founded on a monotheistic god, could be right. Further, I believe in the message of the Gospel. I am a fundamental, non-denominational, full-gospel Christian. The other denominations were formed, as they themselves will tell you, from various self-serving interpretations of the Word of God. Full-Gospel means just that: FULL GOSPEL. No self-serving interpretations. Since I am a gentile, I have to believe in Christianity; Judaism doesn't treat proselytes and born Jews the same.

 

"4) Where in the Bible does Jesus say that people must worship him or pray to him? Doesn't he identify himself as the "Son of Man" who was sent by the Father?"

 

He does. The Bible really says that you must pray to the Father, in Jesus' name, and the Father (provided your prayer is for the right reasons, and wouldn't disrupt the Balance,) will answer it. In the book of John, Jesus says, "And whatsoever you ask the Father, in my name, that I will do". Further, it says, "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, I am there, in their midst".

 

"5) Jesus himself and his disciples seem to believe in reincarnation, as evidenced in Matthew 11:10-15, Matthew 17:10-13 and John 9:1-2. Why is the word of Paul in Hebrews 9:27 taken over Jesus in Christian doctrine?"

 

This is a common misconception. They didn't believe in reincarnation, as in a spirit being born again into a different body, to live another life; they believed that the soul would go to Heaven, and be returned to the newly-constructed SAME body, in the last times.

[Deva]

In the Bible, Jesus refers to Hell as being prepared "for the Devil, and his angels"; furthermore, it tells us that Hell - like Heaven, - existed "from the foundations of the world". Hell was also meant, according to the Bible, to be a place designed to trap certain influences, so they wouldn't further corrupt His beloved creation. It is not just that Hell is a place of punishment, nor just a place of torment (which torments are carried out by the Devil and his angels, by the way); Hell is also a kind of "prison", which was designed to keep evil from infiltrating all Creation. That way, God wouldn't have to watch the very thing He loved suffer needlessly. Believe it or not, there is always a reason for everything, and most reasons are reactionary.

 

 

OK Rev, I have a question for you. What is the origin of evil? I repeat, where did it originate and what was the necessity for it?

[Robbobrob]

"3) There are thousands of different denominations in Christianity, each thinking they have it right. All other religions think that they have it right, as well. How can you be sure that you have it right, when the odds are that you are actually wrong?"

 

I used a combination of logic, deductive reasoning, and inductive reasoning, to come to the conclusion that only a monotheistic religion, founded on a monotheistic god, could be right. Further, I believe in the message of the Gospel. I am a fundamental, non-denominational, full-gospel Christian. The other denominations were formed, as they themselves will tell you, from various self-serving interpretations of the Word of God. Full-Gospel means just that: FULL GOSPEL. No self-serving interpretations. Since I am a gentile, I have to believe in Christianity; Judaism doesn't treat proselytes and born Jews the same.

 

OK, but why the Christian version of a supreme deity. Judaism is one version (which you dismiss)....but then there is Islam, there is Taoism, there is Flying Speghetti Monsterism, there is Zoroasterism, and many others. What made you decide that the Gospel was the correct version of monotheism?

[Guest RevDDM]

In the Bible, Jesus refers to Hell as being prepared "for the Devil, and his angels"; furthermore, it tells us that Hell - like Heaven, - existed "from the foundations of the world". Hell was also meant, according to the Bible, to be a place designed to trap certain influences, so they wouldn't further corrupt His beloved creation. It is not just that Hell is a place of punishment, nor just a place of torment (which torments are carried out by the Devil and his angels, by the way); Hell is also a kind of "prison", which was designed to keep evil from infiltrating all Creation. That way, God wouldn't have to watch the very thing He loved suffer needlessly. Believe it or not, there is always a reason for everything, and most reasons are reactionary.

 

 

OK Rev, I have a question for you. What is the origin of evil? I repeat, where did it originate and what was the necessity for it?

 

The origin of evil is Lucifer's pride. He, like all thinking creations, had free will. He thought it would be better if he were in charge. God knew that Lucifer being in charge would make a mess of Creation (besides, Lucifer couldn't possibly become powerful enough to become like God; that would mean existing without natural laws, which would mean his destruction). Lucifer let his pride get the better of him; and, as one might say, "he screwed himself out of his job".

 

Because Lucifer has always claimed that his way - a sort of fascist anarchy, - was better than God's way, and because worship from a creation that had no free will would be worthless, God gave humans free will... furthermore, God allowed Lucifer just enough power to present his case (as in a court; if Lucifer had stepped out of line, God could object, and Lucifer would have to change his plans); and, to make things fair, God only interferes as much as He allows Lucifer to interfere (maybe a little more; but that's only fair, considering that God has an entire Creation to run).

 

To answer your question...

 

Evil originated in Lucifer's heart, the very instant that he thought he was better than he really was. It later spread throughout all Creation, when Adam and Eve decided to experiment with Lucifer's way. The purpose of allowing evil to exist is two-fold:

 

1 - for God to prove the point that it's better to trust the plan that has kept Creation mostly intact for this long, and

2 - to prove that God isn't intimidated by one questioning His plans or way; nor is he intimidated by bids for the kind of power He wields. In the Bible, God will eventually decide to defeat the forces of evil once, and for all...

 

I enjoyed this question... keep them coming!

 

As always,

 

-RevDDM-

[Guest RevDDM]

"3) There are thousands of different denominations in Christianity, each thinking they have it right. All other religions think that they have it right, as well. How can you be sure that you have it right, when the odds are that you are actually wrong?"

 

I used a combination of logic, deductive reasoning, and inductive reasoning, to come to the conclusion that only a monotheistic religion, founded on a monotheistic god, could be right. Further, I believe in the message of the Gospel. I am a fundamental, non-denominational, full-gospel Christian. The other denominations were formed, as they themselves will tell you, from various self-serving interpretations of the Word of God. Full-Gospel means just that: FULL GOSPEL. No self-serving interpretations. Since I am a gentile, I have to believe in Christianity; Judaism doesn't treat proselytes and born Jews the same.

 

OK, but why the Christian version of a supreme deity. Judaism is one version (which you dismiss)....but then there is Islam, there is Taoism, there is Flying Speghetti Monsterism, there is Zoroasterism, and many others. What made you decide that the Gospel was the correct version of monotheism?

 

Excellent question... but first of all, what, exactly, is "flying spaghetti monsterism"? It sounds like a joke, and I'm sorry for laughing if anybody is offended (though I have heard of stranger religions in my day).

 

I chose Christianity because, while I believe that Judaism is close to the truth, I believe that Christianity is the truth to which Judaism's teachings allude.

 

Jesus taught about the deeper meaning of the Jewish law, and put many Jewish religious ideas in a more... complete light. The things that Jesus taught are right and true. It stands to reason, therefore, that - if Jesus' teachings about the Law and the Prophets are right, - then His teachings about the Messiah (through the texts of some of His closest followers {either personally written, or via a scribe's labours}) must also be true. Furthermore, unless I'm mistaken, the Jews believe also in the Holy Spirit of God. The same compendium of writings that revealed Jesus as the Messiah and Son of God - indeed, as God Himself, - also confirmed many Jewish beliefs that are found in the Old Testament (the Law and the Prophets). I have seen too much evidence that Jesus is the Christ; or, as Ezekiel alluded, the "rock, coming out of the ancient mountain, not hewn with hands"... or, as many other prophets put it (Isaiah himself, if I'm not mistaken), "God's Mighty, Out-Stretched Arm".

 

The Jews recieved their historical teachings from the Kalu priesthood, which were from the region known as Iraq/Babylon (the "Plains of Shinar"), through their Patriarch. Later, when the Jews had been in a polytheist society, and needed their history and religion clarified for them before - and even after, - the Exodus, the surviving Kalu priests, from the Pharaoh's royal court taught this knowledge to Moses (and later, to Tutankhamen; who tried to implement the worship of the one God, and was killed for his efforts). The Kalu priests claimed that their historical, geographical, cosmological and astronomical knowledge was passed down to them via Noah himself, and that Noah got that knowledge from the men mentioned in Genesis ("at that time, men began to call upon the name of the LORD"), which learned these things from Cain and Seth, who learned these things from Adam and Eve themselves, who learned from God Himself. In any case, Jesus taught the Judaic teachings and religion in a format reminiscent of that of the Kalu (to which tribe the "wise men from the East" belonged), but with even greater insight. As if that weren't enough, the Christian idea of Christ being the one last necessary sacrifice - as well as the idea that all you need to do to get that sacrifice is to become a follower of Christ, pray to the Father by His sacrifice to forgive you of all your sins, and accept the Holy Spirit into your own spirit to cleanse you of your desire to sin (do evil for the sake of evil), - seems logical to me. The only way that a crime's effects can be rectified is for someone to pay a price. The only way to eliminate a criminal's nature has always been to have that criminal locked away, until their nature changed in repentance. The only one who could successfully take our punishment for us, without being locked away in Hell forever, was God Himself... or, at least, a part of God. If Jesus is that part of God (which Old Testament prophecies indicate is the case), then His is the only sacrifice that can work. In order to recieve something, you usually must ask for it. Finally, as a sign to the rest of the world that you are truly a changed person, one must be baptized (not to be saved, but to mark their commitment to following Christ and His teachings).

 

There is another reason, but it's more personal... and harder to believe.

 

As always,

 

-RevDDM-

[Deva]

Evil originated in Lucifer's heart, the very instant that he thought he was better than he really was. It later spread throughout all Creation, when Adam and Eve decided to experiment with Lucifer's way. The purpose of allowing evil to exist is two-fold:

 

1 - for God to prove the point that it's better to trust the plan that has kept Creation mostly intact for this long, and

2 - to prove that God isn't intimidated by one questioning His plans or way; nor is he intimidated by bids for the kind of power He wields. In the Bible, God will eventually decide to defeat the forces of evil once, and for all...

 

I enjoyed this question... keep them coming!

 

As always,

 

-RevDDM-

 

RevDDM: "The origin of evil is Lucifer's pride. He, like all thinking creations, had free will."

 

OK, once again the "free will" defense for BibleGod. The only thing xians can come up with to address the problem of evil. The only thing that excuses Biblegod, both with satan and later in the Garden of Eden. Don't you think that defense is a bit flimsy? Even if I granted you the reality of "free will" (which I do not) didn't god know what would happen? Or, perhaps omniscience is not a trait of your god. Free will does not excuse or explain the existence of evil. Why would god create something with a defect such as pride? Even with our imperfect human reasoning, can't you think up a better universe?

 

Free will, what is that exactly? The ability to do whatsoever one desires? If there was a possiblity for sin, it was one that had to come from God. God built into satan the ability to do evil, right? If not, where did the potentiality come from? Why the heck did god do that, if he hates evil so much and evil is so contrary or foreign to his nature? How the hell does this make sense? Pardon me for saying so, but you have barely addressed the magnitude of the objections to your "Lucifer" scenario.

 

To address your first and second points above - Why is the plan so hard to trust/believe, especially in the modern world, and what kind of a god needs to prove to himself that he isn't intimidated? Sounds like some kind of an immature juvenile delinquent. Not one worthy of worship or any consideration.

[Deva]

There is another reason, but it's more personal... and harder to believe.

-RevDDM-

 

 

Well, Rev, we would be interested in hearing the reason. It couldn't be any more difficult to believe than the rest of the essay that you gave before this sentence.

[Ouroboros]

If Satan had free will, had pride and managed to fall... will humans have the same capabilities in Heaven or will humans just be robots without a soul?

[Antlerman]

OK Rev, I have a question for you. What is the origin of evil? I repeat, where did it originate and what was the necessity for it?

 

The origin of evil is Lucifer's pride. He, like all thinking creations, had free will. He thought it would be better if he were in charge…..

 

 

<etc, etc, etc, etc… snipped for irrelevance>

Hi! It’s been a long time since a genuine, real honest to goodness, bona fide True Fundi™ has come along. Refreshing.

 

So to focus on this odd puzzle above that your response doesn’t address at all, where did evil come from? Lucifer sinned? Ok, so where did evil come from? Not “how” did it come into the world by what act, or who opened the door for it, but where did it come from in the first place in order to be let in by Lucifer???

 

Who created it? Lucifer? I thought God created everything. Are you saying Lucifer created stuff just like God? Was he a co-god? This would make sense if Yahweh was one of many gods originally, and Lucifer was just some competitor god, but not if Yahweh alone created EVERYTHING – no exceptions. Did evil exist outside Yahweh "in the beginning"? Does Yahweh exist in something beyond himself? Is Yahweh a servent to good in a universe of both good and evil? Kind of sounds like it.

 

Secondly along these same lines, if God cannot violate his nature and therefore must banish sinners to a place that exists somewhere outside his omnipresent being, then God is not the Lord of all in as much as he is a servant to his nature. He must act against his own desire to accept and love, and instead torture those he loves because he is subject to something higher than himself. With this being so, then we are faced with the question where does this nature exist that this god has to obey. Is God really just a god in the greater universe that he must serve? Again, it certainly sounds like it.

 

Really, these conundrums only make sense when you consider that the original creators of the god myth, which later evolved and was adopted by the early mystery cults of the Roman empire that blending their ideas into Judaism and became known as Christianity, had seen this god as one of many in the greater cosmos which they were subject to. So what you have is the trappings of a later formation of this basic god as some Universal God, talking things which don’t layer well on top of each other as I pointed out above.

 

Please, try to address these points on these terms. Thanks.

[Ouroboros]

And again, we think alike A-man.

 

Devil the Creator. He created sin, independence from a despot, an alternative, he created sickness, bacteria, virus and disaster. He probably created earthquakes, meteors and supernovas too. Not bad for a guy God threw out from heaven.

 

"Where did sin come from?" "From Satan."

 

"Where did Satan's sin come from?" "From... Satan!?"

 

If sin is just made from being "removed from God", then sin can be made and invented by humans as well. We don't need Satan to define "sin", and we don't need God to define "morality". Again, we are the good and evil gods of this world, and no one else.

[Antlerman]

And again, we think alike A-man.

 

Devil the Creator. He created sin, independence from a despot, an alternative, he created sickness, bacteria, virus and disaster. He probably created earthquakes, meteors and supernovas too. Not bad for a guy God threw out from heaven.

 

"Where did sin come from?" "From Satan."

 

"Where did Satan's sin come from?" "From... Satan!?"

 

If sin is just made from being "removed from God", then sin can be made and invented by humans as well. We don't need Satan to define "sin", and we don't need God to define "morality". Again, we are the good and evil gods of this world, and no one else.

 

What I really am beginning to see is that the early creators of God envisioned a universe of existing matter that was in disorder - a sort of primitive steady-state theory of the universe, and that their deity arranged and ordered this into the known forms we see today. Viruses and bacteria and all these other things you mentioned lived happily together in the Garden of Dreams, sort of like the little children playing on the backs of Velocirraptors as seen in the Creationist Fantasyland Museum and Fun park in Petersburg, Kentucky.

 

Then all of a sudden Mr. Big Shot angel Lucifer up there in the sky somewhere with the other angels did something contrary to the laws of God which God himself is subject to and let some of that disorder back in. This of course means that God is not in control of the universe he fashioned out of existing matter like a potter working with clay, and Lucifer messed all this up. This scenario of course creates some problems:

 

1. If Satan did this in the infinite cosmos sometime before creation, then when it says in Genesis that "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth," it is talking about something within a greater Universe where evil exists. Why? Because when Adam and Eve were tempted to have knowledge, the evil was there at the door to let in if they only dared eat of that fruit that God put there in front of them.

 

2. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they let sin into their Garden of Perfection set aside in this messed up universe and set the ball in motion which altered God's creation. Again, this demonstrates that God's work is subject to forces beyond his control. This is not an omnipotent, nor omnipresent deity described in Genesis.

 

3. If the natural system we observe today is based on these scenarios above, the symbiotic relationships of virus, and bacteria, of death and life, and life and death in a balanced and ordered system is one that God did not create, but rather ordered itself by forces that exist outside of God - namely the forces of evolution. This altered creation that sin entering in from outside God's creation caused, leveled itself out into a functioning system with the same forces that level the height of a river on its banks. In otherwords evoltuion is real and it creates life, since this is not what God created but the broken bits of his creation that is in a constant state of ordering itself that is 100 percent responsible for the existence of all life everywhere in the Universe.

 

Now take the points of number 3 above and try to reconcile this with any logic what sort of function that viruses and bacteria served in a pre-fall creation? Were they friends of the Adam's Family, so to speak? This is all pure mythology, and I'm greatly looking forward to our guest to put some reason to explaining this in the light of a literal reading of the Bible.

 

Edit: To try to summarize: What you have really is an infinite regression of sin. Much like the question who created God, and who created that God before him back into infinity? Sin came into the world by Adam and Eve, but sin came into the cosmos by Lucifer, but where did sin come from in the first place, much like where did God come in the first place? What it sounds like to me is a steady state universe where good and evil exist in the fabric of the universe, and the gods and angels act as influencing beings fashioning matter or opening doors to forces beyond all of them. This makes the Bible gods limitations and the existence of sin far more understandable than our guest’s explanation offered.

[Ouroboros]

Right on.

 

I wonder, like you mention, what explanation does the Christian have for virus and bacteria? Where did it come from? Did it exist before the fall, like nice, friendly and huggable microscopic beings, and the fall somehow forced the will of these creaturs to become evil? (Ludicrus explanation since virus and bacteria doesn't have a soul or a mind) Or were they created after the fall? Or did they evolve after the falll?

[Guest RevDDM]

OK Rev, I have a question for you. What is the origin of evil? I repeat, where did it originate and what was the necessity for it?

 

The origin of evil is Lucifer's pride. He, like all thinking creations, had free will. He thought it would be better if he were in charge…..

 

 

<etc, etc, etc, etc… snipped for irrelevance>

Hi! It’s been a long time since a genuine, real honest to goodness, bona fide True Fundi™ has come along. Refreshing.

 

So to focus on this odd puzzle above that your response doesn’t address at all, where did evil come from? Lucifer sinned? Ok, so where did evil come from? Not “how†did it come into the world by what act, or who opened the door for it, but where did it come from in the first place in order to be let in by Lucifer???

 

Who created it? Lucifer? I thought God created everything. Are you saying Lucifer created stuff just like God? Was he a co-god? This would make sense if Yahweh was one of many gods originally, and Lucifer was just some competitor god, but not if Yahweh alone created EVERYTHING – no exceptions. Did evil exist outside Yahweh "in the beginning"? Does Yahweh exist in something beyond himself? Is Yahweh a servent to good in a universe of both good and evil? Kind of sounds like it.

 

Secondly along these same lines, if God cannot violate his nature and therefore must banish sinners to a place that exists somewhere outside his omnipresent being, then God is not the Lord of all in as much as he is a servant to his nature. He must act against his own desire to accept and love, and instead torture those he loves because he is subject to something higher than himself. With this being so, then we are faced with the question where does this nature exist that this god has to obey. Is God really just a god in the greater universe that he must serve? Again, it certainly sounds like it.

 

Really, these conundrums only make sense when you consider that the original creators of the god myth, which later evolved and was adopted by the early mystery cults of the Roman empire that blending their ideas into Judaism and became known as Christianity, had seen this god as one of many in the greater cosmos which they were subject to. So what you have is the trappings of a later formation of this basic god as some Universal God, talking things which don’t layer well on top of each other as I pointed out above.

 

Please, try to address these points on these terms. Thanks.

 

"So to focus on this odd puzzle above that your response doesn’t address at all, where did evil come from? Lucifer sinned? Ok, so where did evil come from? Not “how†did it come into the world by what act, or who opened the door for it, but where did it come from in the first place in order to be let in by Lucifer???"

 

Evil came from Lucifer's pride, and desire to change what was already good. Evil comes, as it always has, from the perversion of good; either by doing nothing to stop the corruption of good from happening, or by causing that corruption yourself.

 

It's like if you built a car, exactly to your specifications. It runs perfectly for you, and everything is in perfect working order. However, the fact that it works perfectly hinges on the idea that nothing about the original design is altered. Then, someone comes along and decides to replace all that trunk space with two huge speakers and basses, so they can blast music for everyone to hear. Well, eventually, all that vibration will not only cause the car to literally fall apart over time, but - if it's loud enough, - the music blasting through the basses and speakers might damage the buildings in the car's neighborhood. Thus, the evil spreads. Changing the design of the car created the evil. However, the sin was created when someone decided to change the car to gratify their egos or desires. Yes, in a way, Satan did create evil. However, since evil is a perversion of good, in a way, Satan did not create evil. I guess what I'm saying is that evil was not created, but mutated from good via Satan and his self-gratifying ideas.

 

"Who created it? Lucifer? I thought God created everything. Are you saying Lucifer created stuff just like God? Was he a co-god? This would make sense if Yahweh was one of many gods originally, and Lucifer was just some competitor god, but not if Yahweh alone created EVERYTHING – no exceptions. Did evil exist outside Yahweh "in the beginning"? Does Yahweh exist in something beyond himself? Is Yahweh a servent to good in a universe of both good and evil? Kind of sounds like it."

 

Lucifer didn't create it. He developed the concept of it, when he perverted good to suit his whims. There is a difference between creating something, and developing something. Creating something means that you cause it to exist, whereas it didn't exist before and has never had a source. Developing something means causing something to exist, but causing it to come from something else. Perverting something means causing changes in something that were never meant to be caused. Lucifer would have you believe that he is some kind of "co-god"; and, in many cases, he has presented angels as "little gods". That is a perversion of the truth; hence, as evil is a perversion of good, so too is a lie the perversion of the truth. Evil didn't exist until good was perverted into it; however, evil was perverted from good, which means that it wasn't created. The potential for both good, and now evil, exists in all things. Evil is just less advantageous for all concerned. As for if YHWH existed in something beyond Himself... That's kind of hard to explain. Since YHWH exists outside of the restraints of time and space, He has no beginning or end. Likewise, He exists both inside Himself, and outside Himself. It is confusing, I'll admit; however, how can we hope to understand the concept of no limitations, when we ourselves have never experienced such a thing first-hand? YHWH is not a mere servant of the concept of good; YHWH is goodness itself, just as He is also love itself. Goodness is a servant-force of YHWH; just as, since Satan is the designer of - and slave to, - evil, he both serves, and is served by, evil itself.

 

"Secondly along these same lines, if God cannot violate his nature and therefore must banish sinners to a place that exists somewhere outside his omnipresent being, then God is not the Lord of all in as much as he is a servant to his nature. He must act against his own desire to accept and love, and instead torture those he loves because he is subject to something higher than himself. With this being so, then we are faced with the question where does this nature exist that this god has to obey. Is God really just a god in the greater universe that he must serve? Again, it certainly sounds like it."

 

God is both Lord of All, and a servant to His nature. The Bible says "I am not a man, that I can lie; neither am I the son of a man, that I should repent". God admits in many places in the Bible that He is willingly bound to His own Word. Thus, while He certainly has the power to break His own laws - which would not only prove Satan right, and make God evil, but would also cause the destruction of all His creations, - He chooses not to, for all our sakes.

 

"Really, these conundrums only make sense when you consider that the original creators of the god myth, which later evolved and was adopted by the early mystery cults of the Roman empire that blending their ideas into Judaism and became known as Christianity, had seen this god as one of many in the greater cosmos which they were subject to. So what you have is the trappings of a later formation of this basic god as some Universal God, talking things which don’t layer well on top of each other as I pointed out above."

 

That idea has been widely taught, but is also untrue. The fact is that it was only when the Jews were subjected to polytheist nations' rule that they attempted to adopt those nations' polytheistic ideas. While semi-pagan Judaic documents do exist, you might be interested to know that they were mostly created by certain sects of the Jewish priesthood, to help harmonize the Jewish nation with their captors (so they would be treated better; a noble intention, I'll admit, but the wrong method); and that such documents - like the Babylonian-influenced version of the Jewish Talmud and the Greek-influenced Apocryphal, deuterocanonical, and pseudepigraphical texts, - are, and have always been, rejected by those priests and Jews that held true to their original belief. The fact is that, before Abraham defected from Shinarian polytheism (not Babylonian per se, since the Babylonian empire didn't really form until some generations later), he had no concept of the Judaic ideals. Furthermore, before Israel was led into Egypt, most of the family of Israel held no polytheistic beliefs. If viewed from a polytheistic, or atheistic perspective, such doctrines will not match with Judeo/Christian ideals. However, if you strip all the pagan influence from modern Christianity and (though there is not that much to strip from it,) Judaism, it begins to make more sense.

 

"Please, try to address these points on these terms. Thanks."

 

It is my sincere hope that I have, in the plainest and most elaborate manner possible.

 

As always,

 

-RevDDM-

[Guest RevDDM]

And again, we think alike A-man.

 

Devil the Creator. He created sin, independence from a despot, an alternative, he created sickness, bacteria, virus and disaster. He probably created earthquakes, meteors and supernovas too. Not bad for a guy God threw out from heaven.

 

"Where did sin come from?" "From Satan."

 

"Where did Satan's sin come from?" "From... Satan!?"

 

If sin is just made from being "removed from God", then sin can be made and invented by humans as well. We don't need Satan to define "sin", and we don't need God to define "morality". Again, we are the good and evil gods of this world, and no one else.

 

"Devil the Creator. He created sin, independence from a despot, an alternative, he created sickness, bacteria, virus and disaster. He probably created earthquakes, meteors and supernovas too. Not bad for a guy God threw out from heaven."

 

The Devil didn't create these things. They developed as a result of the evil that he developed. Earthquakes were developed because, when the earth cracked apart, it became unstable. Meteors aren't bad; nor are supernovas, though supernovas - assuming that they're part of the stars' aging processes, - are the result of sin, as well. One would be surprised at the effects sin has, and how far those effects can spread. And yet, there is hope. What the Devil means for evil, God often turns back around to good. What goes around really does come around... and, in many cases, it flips around in the process. Though, to be honest, I did like that last part.

 

"Where did sin come from?" "From Satan."

 

"Where did Satan's sin come from?" "From... Satan!?"

 

As strange as it is to think of it, that's about right.

 

"If sin is just made from being 'removed from God', then sin can be made and invented by humans as well. We don't need Satan to define 'sin', and we don't need God to define 'morality'. Again, we are the good and evil gods of this world, and no one else."

 

Sin is not just made from being "removed from God"; sin is caused in deliberately deciding not to do what's best to keep everything in harmony, but rather doing whatever you want. Being "removed from God" is the result, because God loves all His creations so much, He can't bear to look at sin. Satan doesn't define sin; Satan caused it to come to pass. God defined it as sin, because it upset the balance of His creation. You say we don't need God to define morality. I say, what better source for the definition, than the source of morality - indeed, the source of all things, - itself? And, as for being the gods of this world... that's what got us into the trouble we're in, today, in the first place: believing that we are good enough to be on a par with - or even superior to, - the God of all Creation... including ourselves.

 

-RevDDM-

[Guest RevDDM]

If Satan had free will, had pride and managed to fall... will humans have the same capabilities in Heaven or will humans just be robots without a soul?

 

Humans could change their minds... however, with no desire to sin, and being in a perfect environment, why would they?

[Guest RevDDM]

OK Rev, I have a question for you. What is the origin of evil? I repeat, where did it originate and what was the necessity for it?

 

The origin of evil is Lucifer's pride. He, like all thinking creations, had free will. He thought it would be better if he were in charge…..

 

 

<etc, etc, etc, etc… snipped for irrelevance>

Hi! It’s been a long time since a genuine, real honest to goodness, bona fide True Fundi™ has come along. Refreshing.

 

So to focus on this odd puzzle above that your response doesn’t address at all, where did evil come from? Lucifer sinned? Ok, so where did evil come from? Not “how†did it come into the world by what act, or who opened the door for it, but where did it come from in the first place in order to be let in by Lucifer???

 

Who created it? Lucifer? I thought God created everything. Are you saying Lucifer created stuff just like God? Was he a co-god? This would make sense if Yahweh was one of many gods originally, and Lucifer was just some competitor god, but not if Yahweh alone created EVERYTHING – no exceptions. Did evil exist outside Yahweh "in the beginning"? Does Yahweh exist in something beyond himself? Is Yahweh a servent to good in a universe of both good and evil? Kind of sounds like it.

 

Secondly along these same lines, if God cannot violate his nature and therefore must banish sinners to a place that exists somewhere outside his omnipresent being, then God is not the Lord of all in as much as he is a servant to his nature. He must act against his own desire to accept and love, and instead torture those he loves because he is subject to something higher than himself. With this being so, then we are faced with the question where does this nature exist that this god has to obey. Is God really just a god in the greater universe that he must serve? Again, it certainly sounds like it.

 

Really, these conundrums only make sense when you consider that the original creators of the god myth, which later evolved and was adopted by the early mystery cults of the Roman empire that blending their ideas into Judaism and became known as Christianity, had seen this god as one of many in the greater cosmos which they were subject to. So what you have is the trappings of a later formation of this basic god as some Universal God, talking things which don’t layer well on top of each other as I pointed out above.

 

Please, try to address these points on these terms. Thanks.

 

On an unrelated note... could you tell me how to post emoticons on this program? I've never used this kind of program before.

[Ouroboros]

Sin is not just made from being "removed from God"; sin is caused in deliberately deciding not to do what's best to keep everything in harmony, but rather doing whatever you want.

Which is the definition of Free Will. Free Will is the Sin then.

 

Usually the definition of "sin" is "to miss the mark", but I still try to figure out "what mark?" What is that mark you're supposed to hit?

 

Being "removed from God" is the result, because God loves all His creations so much, He can't bear to look at sin.

Which is a result of his creation and how he created it (allegedly). He made free will, he made Satan, he made the rules, he's supposed to be the one in "control", but without having a control.

 

Satan doesn't define sin; Satan caused it to come to pass.

With free will.

 

Will Humans have free will in Heaven?

 

Will Humans have the ability to sin in Heaven?

 

If so, why is it Heaven?

 

If not, how come it was done before by Satan?

 

God defined it as sin, because it upset the balance of His creation.

Balance? For the Omnipresent, omniscience and omnipotent God??? You got to be kidding! It's like having the perfect knife that is the sharpest in the world, but is so dull that it can't cut butter.

 

Sin and Free Will points to a omni-imptotent God.

 

You say we don't need God to define morality. I say, what better source for the definition, than the source of morality - indeed, the source of all things, - itself? And, as for being the gods of this world... that's what got us into the trouble we're in, today, in the first place: believing that we are good enough to be on a par with - or even superior to, - the God of all Creation... including ourselves.

BS.

 

If morality requires a higher being, then God requires a Super-God to be moral, or God isn't moral.

 

The only trouble we have today is the war amongst religious people, and between the believers and non-believers. This will not come to an end in the near future, and Jesus is not coming back to save you. We have one world. One life. And we're wasting it on discussing fictious characters in an imaginary story to provide a fantasy solution to a non-existing "sin".

[Ouroboros]

If Satan had free will, had pride and managed to fall... will humans have the same capabilities in Heaven or will humans just be robots without a soul?

 

Humans could change their minds... however, with no desire to sin, and being in a perfect environment, why would they?

Did Satan have a desire to sin? Who put that desire there? Was Satan in control of his desires? Was the environment perfect in Heaven when Satan was the choir leader (or whatever it was)?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, does this mean Heaven is a perfectly tuned universe, but differently tuned than ours? If so, then why do Christians use the "fine tuned universe" argument to prove God, if this universe is crap? And how can this be the only way a universe can be created, when Heaven is created differently? Wouldn't this logically lead to the argument that Heaven can't exist?

[Guest RevDDM]

Sin is not just made from being "removed from God"; sin is caused in deliberately deciding not to do what's best to keep everything in harmony, but rather doing whatever you want.

Which is the definition of Free Will. Free Will is the Sin then.

 

Usually the definition of "sin" is "to miss the mark", but I still try to figure out "what mark?" What is that mark you're supposed to hit?

 

Being "removed from God" is the result, because God loves all His creations so much, He can't bear to look at sin.

Which is a result of his creation and how he created it (allegedly). He made free will, he made Satan, he made the rules, he's supposed to be the one in "control", but without having a control.

 

Satan doesn't define sin; Satan caused it to come to pass.

With free will.

 

Will Humans have free will in Heaven?

 

Will Humans have the ability to sin in Heaven?

 

If so, why is it Heaven?

 

If not, how come it was done before by Satan?

 

God defined it as sin, because it upset the balance of His creation.

Balance? For the Omnipresent, omniscience and omnipotent God??? You got to be kidding! It's like having the perfect knife that is the sharpest in the world, but is so dull that it can't cut butter.

 

Sin and Free Will points to a omni-imptotent God.

 

You say we don't need God to define morality. I say, what better source for the definition, than the source of morality - indeed, the source of all things, - itself? And, as for being the gods of this world... that's what got us into the trouble we're in, today, in the first place: believing that we are good enough to be on a par with - or even superior to, - the God of all Creation... including ourselves.

BS.

 

If morality requires a higher being, then God requires a Super-God to be moral, or God isn't moral.

 

The only trouble we have today is the war amongst religious people, and between the believers and non-believers. This will not come to an end in the near future, and Jesus is not coming back to save you. We have one world. One life. And we're wasting it on discussing fictious characters in an imaginary story to provide a fantasy solution to a non-existing "sin".

 

"Usually the definition of 'sin' is 'to miss the mark', but I still try to figure out 'what mark?' What is that mark you're supposed to hit?"

 

The mark that you're supposed to hit, HanSolo, is doing everything you do with the intent of preserving harmony within your environment, while simultaneously doing nothing that would upset that harmony. When this is done (if it is ever done), the result is a cosmos with all the pieces following the same rules; thus, getting along peacefully.

 

Hence, the reason for the statement, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God".

 

"Will Humans have free will in Heaven?

 

Will Humans have the ability to sin in Heaven?

 

If so, why is it Heaven?

 

If not, how come it was done before by Satan?"

 

While humans will have free will in Heaven, my guess (since I've never actually been there myself,) is that they will be so greatful to God for letting them in, that they will use that free will to glorify God in whatever way they can.

 

Humans, undoubtedly, will have the ability to sin in Heaven. However, without the desire or need to sin, and in such a perfect place, the question becomes "why would they even want to sin?".

 

"Sin and Free Will points to a omni-imptotent God."

 

Wrong: sin and free will point to a fair God. God lets both sides of the case be presented, and allows people to choose which they want to follow. If God didn't do that, He would be a fascist dictator; as I'm sure everyone in Hell, could they speak to us, would tell us Satan really is.

 

"If morality requires a higher being, then God requires a Super-God to be moral, or God isn't moral."

 

You forget my earlier point that God created morality as we know it. God Himself follows the rules of morality, though He created it as the guideline for harmonious function in all Creation. Satan broke that harmony. I'd rather follow God, and be resigned to a set of moral codes that I don't have to follow, than follow Satan and be resigned to the burden of an impulse that consumes all vestiges of morality within my soul (even if I didn't believe in Satan, and still believed in what he stands for).

 

"The only trouble we have today is the war amongst religious people, and between the believers and non-believers. This will not come to an end in the near future, and Jesus is not coming back to save you. We have one world. One life. And we're wasting it on discussing fictious characters in an imaginary story to provide a fantasy solution to a non-existing 'sin'."

 

You are certainly entitled to your beliefs. I don't mean to try to "convert" anyone. My point on this board is to stand up for what I believe in, and provide the reasons for why I believe in it.

 

The trouble is that people do bad things - and let bad things happen, when they can easily stop them, - and everyone still wants to believe that they are perfect, incapable of being truly corrupt on any level (though, as they say, "the proof is in the pudding"), and don't need to change, or try to do better. THAT will, hopefully, come to an end in the near future; and I hope as many people do change as can change, for all our sakes. I happen to believe with all my heart that my Lord WILL come back to save me. We do have one world, and one life... Why don't we use it to do some good, and make up for the bad things we've done?

 

If you want to believe that the Truth is false, then be my guest. I've presented my case.

[Deva]

Rev, you simply cannot deny that according to your scenario, God gave Satan the potential to sin, which you call "free will". It came from God. There was nothing in the universe before that point corresponding to sin, right? How could a creation of God's pull somthing out of thin air that previously never existed and which God hates? WHERE DID THIS IMPULSE COME FROM IF NOT FROM GOD?

 

You are missing the point. Is God in charge or not? If God is soverign and all powerful, why did he permit sin in the first place? Why give his creations that option? He had to have known how destructive it was, after all "morality came from God" (according to you) and HE LOVES US.

 

Why did God limit his power? He must have, since that is the only explanation you have for the way the universe is now. Why not have "heaven" here now, with humans totally removed from the desire to sin? God can do it, right?