Five Questions That Christians Can't Answer

[Ouroboros]

"Usually the definition of 'sin' is 'to miss the mark', but I still try to figure out 'what mark?' What is that mark you're supposed to hit?"

 

The mark that you're supposed to hit, HanSolo, is doing everything you do with the intent of preserving harmony within your environment, while simultaneously doing nothing that would upset that harmony. When this is done (if it is ever done), the result is a cosmos with all the pieces following the same rules; thus, getting along peacefully.

Like Daoism, Paganism, Wicca, Buddhism and naturalism?

 

Hence, the reason for the statement, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God".

So nature is God then?

 

"Will Humans have free will in Heaven?

 

Will Humans have the ability to sin in Heaven?

 

If so, why is it Heaven?

 

If not, how come it was done before by Satan?"

 

While humans will have free will in Heaven, my guess (since I've never actually been there myself,) is that they will be so greatful to God for letting them in, that they will use that free will to glorify God in whatever way they can.

Wasn't Satan's role to lead the worship in Heaven? If you never been to Heaven, how can you be sure it isn't just a made up fantasy?

 

Why did Satan use his free will to rebel against God? Maybe there's an untold story here. Maybe he did so because God was cruel and mean, and Satan wanted to get out from the abusive relationship? And then God went ahead and started a couple of religions to lie about who was to blame! Mischievous God can do these things you know. I think it was the belief of the Gnostics that YHWH wasn't the highest god, and neither was he very good.

 

Humans, undoubtedly, will have the ability to sin in Heaven. However, without the desire or need to sin, and in such a perfect place, the question becomes "why would they even want to sin?".

 

"Sin and Free Will points to a omni-imptotent God."

 

Wrong: sin and free will point to a fair God. God lets both sides of the case be presented, and allows people to choose which they want to follow. If God didn't do that, He would be a fascist dictator; as I'm sure everyone in Hell, could they speak to us, would tell us Satan really is.

There you go. God is fair, gives us free will, and if you use it you end up in Hell. Everyone in Hell can tell you how much they appreciated the freedom of choice. How that points to "goodness" is beyond me. When I give my kids a choice between vanilla ice cream and chocolate ice cream, I don't the one who choose vanilla in rooms arrest for the rest of the week because I wanted them to pick chocolate.

 

"If morality requires a higher being, then God requires a Super-God to be moral, or God isn't moral."

 

You forget my earlier point that God created morality as we know it. God Himself follows the rules of morality, though He created it as the guideline for harmonious function in all Creation.

And why can't humans create morality? You say God can, but humans can't, but yet that is exactly what we see. Even Christians disagree one morality issues.

 

Satan broke that harmony. I'd rather follow God, and be resigned to a set of moral codes that I don't have to follow, than follow Satan and be resigned to the burden of an impulse that consumes all vestiges of morality within my soul (even if I didn't believe in Satan, and still believed in what he stands for).

You following God was your impulse. You used the freedom to choose, but also your desire to avoid Hell, and your desire to go to Heaven, so in the end you're Christian based on selfish desires.

 

"The only trouble we have today is the war amongst religious people, and between the believers and non-believers. This will not come to an end in the near future, and Jesus is not coming back to save you. We have one world. One life. And we're wasting it on discussing fictious characters in an imaginary story to provide a fantasy solution to a non-existing 'sin'."

 

You are certainly entitled to your beliefs. I don't mean to try to "convert" anyone. My point on this board is to stand up for what I believe in, and provide the reasons for why I believe in it.

 

The trouble is that people do bad things - and let bad things happen, when they can easily stop them, - and everyone still wants to believe that they are perfect, incapable of being truly corrupt on any level (though, as they say, "the proof is in the pudding"), and don't need to change, or try to do better. THAT will, hopefully, come to an end in the near future; and I hope as many people do change as can change, for all our sakes. I happen to believe with all my heart that my Lord WILL come back to save me. We do have one world, and one life... Why don't we use it to do some good, and make up for the bad things we've done?

 

If you want to believe that the Truth is false, then be my guest. I've presented my case.

Sure. You're right to your opinion and your belief. I have no problem with it. And yes, the proof is in the pudding, and Christianity does not show a high return or good success. We hear about evil Christians doing bad things, and shouldn't it be that God would really help his own and change them to become good? Why is the ratio unchanged between non-Christians and Christians? Why does America, with 70% Christians, have higher crime rate than Agnostic/Atheist domniated countries in Europe? Isn't there a miracle happening in the Christian's heart and he is "born again"? Why doesn't he change?

[Japedo]

"Sin and Free Will points to a omni-imptotent God."

 

Wrong: sin and free will point to a fair God. God lets both sides of the case be presented, and allows people to choose which they want to follow. If God didn't do that, He would be a fascist dictator; as I'm sure everyone in Hell, could they speak to us, would tell us Satan really is.

 

Can you please explain to us then why God destroyed and murdered people over tribal reasons and not reasons such as free will as you describe above, but for simply being born to the wrong tribe? How are you going to defend this 'fairness'.?

 

 

You forget my earlier point that God created morality as we know it. God Himself follows the rules of morality, though He created it as the guideline for harmonious function in all Creation. Satan broke that harmony. I'd rather follow God, and be resigned to a set of moral codes that I don't have to follow, than follow Satan and be resigned to the burden of an impulse that consumes all vestiges of morality within my soul (even if I didn't believe in Satan, and still believed in what he stands for).

 

 

I contend that it is God who lacks morals. (For starters the 10 commandments)

 

Murdering people over their 'free will' then continuing that 'punishment for all eternity Torturing people, to me it makes him a sadistic bastard who has no love or grace for his 'children', Parents whom do less are jailed and shunned from society (as they should be) , yet people like you make excuses for your cruel god. (Murder)

 

He makes a law that procreation can only come from marriage yet breaks his own rules for Christ to be born. Then glorified that broken law. (adultery/fornication) Having said that any young girl today that claimed she was a virgin and was knocked up, I'm sure you'll label her a harlot whore and liar. Do you use the same mindset when judging Mary?

 

 

He murders two cities over sex crimes then calls the ass who plants his seeds in his own daughters a 'righteous man', and saves him from being killed, then goes on to bless him. ( Lot)

 

Instead of just forgiving because he can, he requires blood and human sacrifices in his name (more Murder)

 

 

He orders tribes to lose their land because of their bloodline (stealing)

 

Blesses Jacob when he steals his brothers birthright (Condones Stealing)

 

Picked fruit on the Sabbath (Sabbath law)

 

Christ yells at his mother and disrespects her publicly ( Obey your parents Law)

 

Slaughters the first born of every child born of Egypt not over free will but force. He forced and controlled Pharos actions then killed his people for not being able to exercise his own free will. And some how this is Justice and fairness?

 

Condemns people for eternal suffering and brutality over something as simple as disbelief and doubt

 

Frankly Sir, with my own human justice measuring stick, I can't understand why people would worship and follow such an evil putrid idea of a god. Your god if put on trial would out murder Stalin,pol pot and Hitler combined. Yet you blindly attribute him as having some sorta 'morals'.

 

 

How many people was satan convicted or recorded of murdering again........? You are going to say pride and vanity outdo your monster of a god on a justice scale? Are you crazy? LOL Isn't your god just as prideful and vain if not more so? An abusive husband will tell his wife, Love me or suffer and die, Your god is no differnt. You give your god the same lame ass excuse as people do other abusers. The women has free will to be beat up and killed, it's her choice if that's what she wants. Hell and your self-loathing cult is the same mindset.

[Guest RevDDM]

If Satan had free will, had pride and managed to fall... will humans have the same capabilities in Heaven or will humans just be robots without a soul?

 

Humans could change their minds... however, with no desire to sin, and being in a perfect environment, why would they?

Did Satan have a desire to sin? Who put that desire there? Was Satan in control of his desires? Was the environment perfect in Heaven when Satan was the choir leader (or whatever it was)?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, does this mean Heaven is a perfectly tuned universe, but differently tuned than ours? If so, then why do Christians use the "fine tuned universe" argument to prove God, if this universe is crap? And how can this be the only way a universe can be created, when Heaven is created differently? Wouldn't this logically lead to the argument that Heaven can't exist?

 

Satan did have a desire to sin, after some time. He stopped thinking past himself, and started thinking that he himself was the most important individual. I can go no further than that; Satan's mind is obviously a messed-up place...

 

I'm not too sure about what you mean by "fine-tuned universe argument", so I'll have to skip that one... I can tell you this: Heaven was created as a place for beings to be close to God, but not too close. Earth is a place which was intended as God's favourite artistic creation. Obviously, being closer to God, Heaven would be more perfect. I'm not saying Earth is perfect; I do, however, believe that the proof of it's creation is self-evident (as a plane of existence).

[Guest RevDDM]

"Rev, you simply cannot deny that according to your scenario, God gave Satan the potential to sin, which you call 'free will'. It came from God. There was nothing in the universe before that point corresponding to sin, right? How could a creation of God's pull somthing out of thin air that previously never existed and which God hates? WHERE DID THIS IMPULSE COME FROM IF NOT FROM GOD?"

 

I will concede to that. I don't know. I never claimed to know everything... especially about God. However, I pose a question to you: if there is no god, then (an oldie, but still good,) how does everything exist? Surely, nothing in this universe is permanent. That means everything had to come from somewhere... even the "big bang", if there ever was one.

 

"You are missing the point. Is God in charge or not? If God is soverign and all powerful, why did he permit sin in the first place? Why give his creations that option? He had to have known how destructive it was, after all "morality came from God" (according to you) and HE LOVES US."

 

Satan accuses God of being unfair. He accuses God of being something of a fascist dictator. If Satan were allowed to claim these things uncontested, he could lead many people into doing dangerous things... like even greater levels of pollution and crime. That's why God gives us the choice: if He didn't, we'd all eventually see Him as "der fuhrer", and rebel... throwing creation into chaos and destruction. Thus, God allows evil to exist, to prove that He has given us freedom... and to show us how bad it is.

 

"Why did God limit his power?"

 

God limited His power, to stabilize His creations. If He threw out the Word every time He wanted to make a change, nothing would exist as we know it... it might even be worse... That's why, among other reasons, God restricts Himself. Another reason is to prove to Satan that He can follow His own rules, and still help the forces of good win in the end.

 

"He must have, since that is the only explanation you have for the way the universe is now."

 

True.

 

"Why not have 'heaven' here now, with humans totally removed from the desire to sin? God can do it, right?"

 

If Heaven were here and now, we'd all wonder about what we were missing out on by obeying the rules... We'd all end up like Lucifer... Lucifer would win, and the Creation that God loves so much would be ruined. The hope remains, to entice us to choose good over evil, but the temptation to choose the immediate gratification over the longer-reigning satisfaction can be quite powerful...

 

-RevDDM-

[Deva]

However, I pose a question to you: if there is no god, then (an oldie, but still good,) how does everything exist?

 

I never said there was no god. We are addressing specifically the god as depicted in the Bible and the problem of evil. Maybe you would like to start another thread on the subject of the existence of god. But before you say this, you did concede that my main point must have validity-- the impulse to sin came from god.

 

Thus, God allows evil to exist, to prove that He has given us freedom... and to show us how bad it is.

 

I just don't buy this explanation. I don't see why god should allow something he so detests to exist just to prove something to one of his own creations, whether humans or Satan (doesn't seem to be much difference between the two).

Why can't the forces of good win in the beginning and not the end? Isn't god subjecting himself to some other higher law or priority than his own, as was suggested in some of the earlier posts? Isn't god is both good and evil? If so, why does he need to prove anything? If he is only good, how did sin (or the impulse to do sin) arise? Doesn't he know (even better than his "creations") what both good and evil are? I do not see how we can get past this issue.

 

 

Rev, you say:

 

If Heaven were here and now, we'd all wonder about what we were missing out on by obeying the rules...

 

This is really theoretical, but I have to say I really doubt that. Given an all powerful and soverign god, it certainly wouldn't happen unless god first put that desire into us to wonder about it to begin with. Then, I don't think it would be heaven.

[Ouroboros]

Satan did have a desire to sin, after some time. He stopped thinking past himself, and started thinking that he himself was the most important individual. I can go no further than that; Satan's mind is obviously a messed-up place...

How do you know these intricate details about what happened in Heaven before the world was created? Let me ask you the question I get sometimes about the Big Bang: were you there?

 

I'm not too sure about what you mean by "fine-tuned universe argument", so I'll have to skip that one...

It's a pseudo-philosophical argument many apologists use to prove that God must exist.

 

I can tell you this: Heaven was created as a place for beings to be close to God, but not too close. Earth is a place which was intended as God's favourite artistic creation. Obviously, being closer to God, Heaven would be more perfect.

Then it is good to die?

 

I'm not saying Earth is perfect; I do, however, believe that the proof of it's creation is self-evident (as a plane of existence).

That "self-evident" argument isn't so obvious to me. And even if it was, why does that prove YHWH+Jesus+HolySpirit (3 gods in 1 god? What is self-evident to say that Jesus magically made the world with his pinky will singing twinkle-twinkle-little-star? It's just stories. No evidence.

 

So did God create the bacteria and the virus before the fall, or after the fall, or did Satan create them? (Because I can't find where you answered that question earlier)

[Antlerman]

"Rev, you simply cannot deny that according to your scenario, God gave Satan the potential to sin, which you call 'free will'. It came from God. There was nothing in the universe before that point corresponding to sin, right? How could a creation of God's pull somthing out of thin air that previously never existed and which God hates? WHERE DID THIS IMPULSE COME FROM IF NOT FROM GOD?"

 

I will concede to that. I don't know. I never claimed to know everything... especially about God.

Ok that's a better answer than saying Lucifer merely "developed" evil. This is what my post was getting at and you now concede by saying you don't know. That's a good start, but hardly a good position to argue a truth from, wouldn't you say? We'll pick up from this later in a seperate post.

 

However, I pose a question to you: if there is no god, then (an oldie, but still good,) how does everything exist? Surely, nothing in this universe is permanent. That means everything had to come from somewhere... even the "big bang", if there ever was one.

An oldie but more than a goodie response is that it doesn't take God to explain where the universe came from. No one in science ever claims that everything came from nothing. That's only what apologist detractors try to make science saying in order to criticize it. No scientist says this. However..... this is exactly what the apologist in turn argues: that everything did come out of nothing - including God.

 

Just because we may not yet know the "how" of something is not an automatic vote for the "god did it" argument. There absolutely no evidence of that being the answer to the question of how.

 

Satan accuses God of being unfair. He accuses God of being something of a fascist dictator. If Satan were allowed to claim these things uncontested, he could lead many people into doing dangerous things... like even greater levels of pollution and crime. That's why God gives us the choice: if He didn't, we'd all eventually see Him as "der fuhrer", and rebel... throwing creation into chaos and destruction. Thus, God allows evil to exist, to prove that He has given us freedom... and to show us how bad it is.

How completely Westernized you are in dualistic thinking.

 

Can you please describe for me what evil is, and what good is. Let's discuss this to try to identify what is really chaos, and what is really order. OK?

 

God limited His power, to stabilize His creations. If He threw out the Word every time He wanted to make a change, nothing would exist as we know it... it might even be worse... That's why, among other reasons, God restricts Himself. Another reason is to prove to Satan that He can follow His own rules, and still help the forces of good win in the end.

"Forces of good win in the end". Exactly what is that? Win over what? Life?

 

If Heaven were here and now, we'd all wonder about what we were missing out on by obeying the rules... We'd all end up like Lucifer... Lucifer would win, and the Creation that God loves so much would be ruined. The hope remains, to entice us to choose good over evil, but the temptation to choose the immediate gratification over the longer-reigning satisfaction can be quite powerful...

 

-RevDDM-

You know honestly Reverend, could you try to step back for one minute and understand how all of this is so easily recognized as nothing more than a system of man using a god as a symbol to follow rules of a society? That's all most religions do essentially, and I see nothing different here.

 

As far as your analogy, how about little babies who die and go to heaven. What did they learn about obeying rules? Or does God reject them and send them to hell?

 

I reject Christian theology, and I don't believe a god exists, yet I live more morally than I did when I was a Christian, and frankly I have never felt better about the beauty of life and hope and wonder than I did when I was a Christian. Most everyone without exception on this site says the same thing. I've often mused, "I'm more a Christian now that I'm not one, than I ever was when I was one." So much for rejecting god and going off in pursuit of chaos and destruction. It's easy for others to say how things are for those who reject God, when they never actually talk to those who live it.

[Ouroboros]

A-man, we must be twins in a parallel universe... there's no other explanation.

[Grandpa Harley]

I tend to find that people who make loud, Ex-Cathedra comments about what sort of hell the world would be without Christ are usually using the religion as a reason not to become a serial killer

[Antlerman]

A-man, we must be twins in a parallel universe... there's no other explanation.

And if there were a Chruch of the Parallel Universe, this would be used as evidence to support the belief as fact. Much the same way Christian apologetics work. No... not much the same way, exactly the same way: "There's no other explaination".

 

(Personally I find more plausibility in the parrallel universe theory than I do in stories of Lucifer in some cosmic war with Jesus' Dad. At least there are mathematical models to support Brane theory).

 

 

I tend to find that people who make loud, Ex-Cathedra comments about what sort of hell the world would be without Christ are usually using the religion as a reason not to become a serial killer

Now that's a frightening thought.

[Guest RevDDM]

"Usually the definition of 'sin' is 'to miss the mark', but I still try to figure out 'what mark?' What is that mark you're supposed to hit?"

 

The mark that you're supposed to hit, HanSolo, is doing everything you do with the intent of preserving harmony within your environment, while simultaneously doing nothing that would upset that harmony. When this is done (if it is ever done), the result is a cosmos with all the pieces following the same rules; thus, getting along peacefully.

Like Daoism, Paganism, Wicca, Buddhism and naturalism?

 

Hence, the reason for the statement, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God".

So nature is God then?

 

"Will Humans have free will in Heaven?

 

Will Humans have the ability to sin in Heaven?

 

If so, why is it Heaven?

 

If not, how come it was done before by Satan?"

 

While humans will have free will in Heaven, my guess (since I've never actually been there myself,) is that they will be so greatful to God for letting them in, that they will use that free will to glorify God in whatever way they can.

Wasn't Satan's role to lead the worship in Heaven? If you never been to Heaven, how can you be sure it isn't just a made up fantasy?

 

Why did Satan use his free will to rebel against God? Maybe there's an untold story here. Maybe he did so because God was cruel and mean, and Satan wanted to get out from the abusive relationship? And then God went ahead and started a couple of religions to lie about who was to blame! Mischievous God can do these things you know. I think it was the belief of the Gnostics that YHWH wasn't the highest god, and neither was he very good.

 

Humans, undoubtedly, will have the ability to sin in Heaven. However, without the desire or need to sin, and in such a perfect place, the question becomes "why would they even want to sin?".

 

"Sin and Free Will points to a omni-imptotent God."

 

Wrong: sin and free will point to a fair God. God lets both sides of the case be presented, and allows people to choose which they want to follow. If God didn't do that, He would be a fascist dictator; as I'm sure everyone in Hell, could they speak to us, would tell us Satan really is.

There you go. God is fair, gives us free will, and if you use it you end up in Hell. Everyone in Hell can tell you how much they appreciated the freedom of choice. How that points to "goodness" is beyond me. When I give my kids a choice between vanilla ice cream and chocolate ice cream, I don't the one who choose vanilla in rooms arrest for the rest of the week because I wanted them to pick chocolate.

 

"If morality requires a higher being, then God requires a Super-God to be moral, or God isn't moral."

 

You forget my earlier point that God created morality as we know it. God Himself follows the rules of morality, though He created it as the guideline for harmonious function in all Creation.

And why can't humans create morality? You say God can, but humans can't, but yet that is exactly what we see. Even Christians disagree one morality issues.

 

Satan broke that harmony. I'd rather follow God, and be resigned to a set of moral codes that I don't have to follow, than follow Satan and be resigned to the burden of an impulse that consumes all vestiges of morality within my soul (even if I didn't believe in Satan, and still believed in what he stands for).

You following God was your impulse. You used the freedom to choose, but also your desire to avoid Hell, and your desire to go to Heaven, so in the end you're Christian based on selfish desires.

 

"The only trouble we have today is the war amongst religious people, and between the believers and non-believers. This will not come to an end in the near future, and Jesus is not coming back to save you. We have one world. One life. And we're wasting it on discussing fictious characters in an imaginary story to provide a fantasy solution to a non-existing 'sin'."

 

You are certainly entitled to your beliefs. I don't mean to try to "convert" anyone. My point on this board is to stand up for what I believe in, and provide the reasons for why I believe in it.

 

The trouble is that people do bad things - and let bad things happen, when they can easily stop them, - and everyone still wants to believe that they are perfect, incapable of being truly corrupt on any level (though, as they say, "the proof is in the pudding"), and don't need to change, or try to do better. THAT will, hopefully, come to an end in the near future; and I hope as many people do change as can change, for all our sakes. I happen to believe with all my heart that my Lord WILL come back to save me. We do have one world, and one life... Why don't we use it to do some good, and make up for the bad things we've done?

 

If you want to believe that the Truth is false, then be my guest. I've presented my case.

Sure. You're right to your opinion and your belief. I have no problem with it. And yes, the proof is in the pudding, and Christianity does not show a high return or good success. We hear about evil Christians doing bad things, and shouldn't it be that God would really help his own and change them to become good? Why is the ratio unchanged between non-Christians and Christians? Why does America, with 70% Christians, have higher crime rate than Agnostic/Atheist domniated countries in Europe? Isn't there a miracle happening in the Christian's heart and he is "born again"? Why doesn't he change?

 

"Like Daoism, Paganism, Wicca, Buddhism and naturalism?"

 

While all these, and other religions, have excellent philosophies, they also - from what I understand, - do not offer a solution to undoing the effects of your mistakes on your spirit. Every mistake you deliberately make (sin) has an adverse effect on your soul. Christianity offers a way to undo that effect.

 

"Wasn't Satan's role to lead the worship in Heaven? If you never been to Heaven, how can you be sure it isn't just a made up fantasy?"

 

That was just one of his many roles. He was also the commander of the angels in Heaven, before he was cast out; the one who "woke up" all of creation in the morning; and the one that guarded creation from the sheer intensity of God's power.

 

As to why I believe in Heaven...

 

Let's assume that we have a soul and spirit. If we die, and this spirit (the force that powers our bodies) is still alive, so to speak, it must travel somewhere to stabilize, since it no longer has a body to work through (the body having long since broken down too much for the spirit to work through it any more; like a burned-out light bulb).

There must be, since there are always two sides to everything, a place for spirits to remain stable: either a place of punishment, on the negative end of the scale; or a place of pleasure, on the other end. Hence, if we are indeed superior to machines, in that we are a changing source of energy for our bodies, there must be a chance that - when our bodies die, - we will either end up in Heaven, or Hell.

 

"Why did Satan use his free will to rebel against God? Maybe there's an untold story here. Maybe he did so because God was cruel and mean, and Satan wanted to get out from the abusive relationship? And then God went ahead and started a couple of religions to lie about who was to blame! Mischievous God can do these things you know. I think it was the belief of the Gnostics that YHWH wasn't the highest god, and neither was he very good."

 

If God created everything, and is cruel and mean, why would He give us the free will to decide to either accept or reject Him? Surely, if God was so mean and cruel, He would want to deprive us of that freedom; and have a cosmos of automatons constantly worshipping Him, to soothe His ego. However, as a created being, Satan could decide that this was what he wanted; and, if so, then Satan would be so egotistical as to wage war to get it, against the Creator Himself. Furthermore, which would be more advantageous: creating two or three religions, which disagree on many topics, to paint this so-called "heroic rebel" as a bad guy; or to create a multitude of religions, all based on similar principles, to twist around what one or two religions claim, so the creation would be worshipped instead of the Creator? If I were God, and what you say is true, I would choose the latter over the former: being all-powerful, and having so many religions on my side, would easily assure me victory. However, if Satan truly is as the Bible paints him to be, then I'd still opt for the majority of the world's religions to be on my side; at least then, I might stand a chance at victory.

 

"There you go. God is fair, gives us free will, and if you use it you end up in Hell. Everyone in Hell can tell you how much they appreciated the freedom of choice. How that points to 'goodness' is beyond me. When I give my kids a choice between vanilla ice cream and chocolate ice cream, I don't the one who choose vanilla in rooms arrest for the rest of the week because I wanted them to pick chocolate."

 

It's not that, if you use your free will, you end up in Hell. It's, rather, that you end up in Hell for abusing it. Satan abused his free will, and has tried to tempt all of creation into abusing theirs, as well. Not only can you choose to worship God in your own way - according to the Bible, - as long as it comes from the heart; but you can also choose how to make your environment a better place, and how to help other people make their lives better. To change the rules in service to yourself is abusing that freedom of will, not just using it.

 

"And why can't humans create morality? You say God can, but humans can't, but yet that is exactly what we see. Even Christians disagree one morality issues."

 

Humans can't create morality; because morality is following the rules however you can, with the least trouble in your own life. Now, if it's a choice between doing right by yourself, and doing right by the rest of creation, then Christians are admonished to serve the "greater good" over the "lesser good"; because, when you flip that around, and serve the lesser good instead, the "lesser good" becomes the "greater evil". Incidentally, I will agree with you that Christians should stop making up our own morals, and go by what the entire Bible teaches. And yet, our pride is still too strong for the majority of us to let that happen.

 

"You following God was your impulse. You used the freedom to choose, but also your desire to avoid Hell, and your desire to go to Heaven, so in the end you're Christian based on selfish desires."

 

While I won't deny that the whole "Heaven or Hell" issue was a factor in my decision, it was not the factor. Other factors played into the equasion, as well: one of which was that I wanted to serve the "greater good", and Christianity showed me how (which is why I hope to start my ministry soon). It was not one factor, but many. So, while I was a little bit selfish, I was also looking to do the right thing for the sake of it being right.

 

"Sure. You're right to your opinion and your belief. I have no problem with it. And yes, the proof is in the pudding, and Christianity does not show a high return or good success. We hear about evil Christians doing bad things, and shouldn't it be that God would really help his own and change them to become good? Why is the ratio unchanged between non-Christians and Christians? Why does America, with 70% Christians, have higher crime rate than Agnostic/Atheist domniated countries in Europe? Isn't there a miracle happening in the Christian's heart and he is "born again"? Why doesn't he change?"

 

Firstly, the only reason I can think of for "christians" not changing is that they weren't sincere, or are still too weak to resist temptation. Unfortunately, there are a lot of "fashion Christians" out there (people who claim to be Christian, because they think it will make them look good; consequently, they are not true Christians). True Christians do change, and we do try to resist temptation. When we slip, we ask God for forgiveness, and we do all we can to rectify the situation amongst those we sin against. In all cases, the Bible tells true Christians that, when they do occasionally sin, they should always make an honest effort to not commit that same sin again... even if it means going to a professional for help and guidance. That also includes getting rid of all the negative influences that tempted us into that sin in the first place. That's what Jesus meant by cutting off the hand or foot, or plucking out the eye: instead of the literal interpretation, which is to maim yourself, the real meaning is to cut out of your life all the bad influences that might make you sin again. That's not to say that we won't sin again; however, we are making an effort to not sin again.

 

Secondly, I'm not too sure about the idea that countries of other religious or secular ideologies have less crime than Christian nations. I'll have to do my own research on that...

 

And a thank-you to DevaLight for cluing me in on how to work the features of this board...

 

-RevDDM-

[Deva]

Rev, you say "It's not that, if you use your free will, you end up in Hell. It's, rather, that you end up in Hell for abusing it. Satan abused his free will, and has tried to tempt all of creation into abusing theirs, as well. Not only can you choose to worship God in your own way - according to the Bible, - as long as it comes from the heart; but you can also choose how to make your environment a better place, and how to help other people make their lives better. To change the rules in service to yourself is abusing that freedom of will, not just using it."

 

Rev, the way you are using "free will" here, it seems to have more power than god. This just makes no sense. Please think about it before continuing to make statements like that above. There is no such thing as absolute free will. In fact, I think the evidence is good that "free will" is only an illusion. The options and tendencies to will or make a choice this way or that must come from somewhere, as you at least partially admitted before, therefore it cannot be "free".

 

Another question, why does god need worship at all?

 

Rev R: "Humans can't create morality; because morality is following the rules however you can, with the least trouble in your own life."

 

I still don't see how humans can't have created morality. I do not understand your definition of morality, either, Rev. It seems perfectly sensible to me that humans had to create rules or laws for themselves in order to co-exist together in social groups. That is human nature-- to exist and co-operate in groups because it had the greatest survival value for us. I don't see the need for another explanation.

[Deva]

If God created everything, and is cruel and mean, why would He give us the free will to decide to either accept or reject Him?

 

Rev, have you ever really deeply considered how much of this whole "plan" of god's that you describe hinges upon this notion of "free will". What if that is false? It is certainly questionable. What if everything is determined? Just entertain that possiblity.

[Guest RevDDM]

"Sin and Free Will points to a omni-imptotent God."

 

Wrong: sin and free will point to a fair God. God lets both sides of the case be presented, and allows people to choose which they want to follow. If God didn't do that, He would be a fascist dictator; as I'm sure everyone in Hell, could they speak to us, would tell us Satan really is.

 

Can you please explain to us then why God destroyed and murdered people over tribal reasons and not reasons such as free will as you describe above, but for simply being born to the wrong tribe? How are you going to defend this 'fairness'.?

 

 

You forget my earlier point that God created morality as we know it. God Himself follows the rules of morality, though He created it as the guideline for harmonious function in all Creation. Satan broke that harmony. I'd rather follow God, and be resigned to a set of moral codes that I don't have to follow, than follow Satan and be resigned to the burden of an impulse that consumes all vestiges of morality within my soul (even if I didn't believe in Satan, and still believed in what he stands for).

 

 

I contend that it is God who lacks morals. (For starters the 10 commandments)

 

Murdering people over their 'free will' then continuing that 'punishment for all eternity Torturing people, to me it makes him a sadistic bastard who has no love or grace for his 'children', Parents whom do less are jailed and shunned from society (as they should be) , yet people like you make excuses for your cruel god. (Murder)

 

He makes a law that procreation can only come from marriage yet breaks his own rules for Christ to be born. Then glorified that broken law. (adultery/fornication) Having said that any young girl today that claimed she was a virgin and was knocked up, I'm sure you'll label her a harlot whore and liar. Do you use the same mindset when judging Mary?

 

 

He murders two cities over sex crimes then calls the ass who plants his seeds in his own daughters a 'righteous man', and saves him from being killed, then goes on to bless him. ( Lot)

 

Instead of just forgiving because he can, he requires blood and human sacrifices in his name (more Murder)

 

 

He orders tribes to lose their land because of their bloodline (stealing)

 

Blesses Jacob when he steals his brothers birthright (Condones Stealing)

 

Picked fruit on the Sabbath (Sabbath law)

 

Christ yells at his mother and disrespects her publicly ( Obey your parents Law)

 

Slaughters the first born of every child born of Egypt not over free will but force. He forced and controlled Pharos actions then killed his people for not being able to exercise his own free will. And some how this is Justice and fairness?

 

Condemns people for eternal suffering and brutality over something as simple as disbelief and doubt

 

Frankly Sir, with my own human justice measuring stick, I can't understand why people would worship and follow such an evil putrid idea of a god. Your god if put on trial would out murder Stalin,pol pot and Hitler combined. Yet you blindly attribute him as having some sorta 'morals'.

 

 

How many people was satan convicted or recorded of murdering again........? You are going to say pride and vanity outdo your monster of a god on a justice scale? Are you crazy? LOL Isn't your god just as prideful and vain if not more so? An abusive husband will tell his wife, Love me or suffer and die, Your god is no differnt. You give your god the same lame ass excuse as people do other abusers. The women has free will to be beat up and killed, it's her choice if that's what she wants. Hell and your self-loathing cult is the same mindset.

 

"Can you please explain to us then why God destroyed and murdered people over tribal reasons and not reasons such as free will as you describe above, but for simply being born to the wrong tribe? How are you going to defend this 'fairness'.?"

 

As the Bible tells us, God knew that - in one way, or another, - many of these nations and tribes held some kind of animostiy toward His chosen people; and, if they could not indoctrinate them into their ideology, they would try to wipe the Jews off the face of the Earth. In short, it was a pre-emptive strike, designed to secure the safety of the Israelites. However, whenever the Israelites would turn their collective backs on God, He punished them by subjecting them to such countries: both as a form of punishment, for those who rebelled; and as a lesson to those who might rebel in the future.

 

"I contend that it is God who lacks morals. (For starters the 10 commandments)"

 

How are the Ten Commandments amoral or immoral? I thought telling people to not murder was a good thing!

 

"Murdering people over their 'free will' then continuing that 'punishment for all eternity Torturing people, to me it makes him a sadistic bastard who has no love or grace for his 'children', Parents whom do less are jailed and shunned from society (as they should be) , yet people like you make excuses for your cruel god. (Murder)"

 

Murder - which is different from killing, - is wrong. God has never murdered anyone. That punishment, as I earlier commented, was much like a modern-day jail: it is designed for the safety and security of all creation. Believe me, if you choose: God takes no pleasure from that torture. He takes pleasure in people learning their lessons, and then helps them get back on their feet, but torture is something that breaks God's heart. Besides, if God has no love or grace for His children, let alone the rest of His creation, then why send Jesus to die for us?

 

I still don't see how disciplining one's children when they misbehave, or correcting someone when they are wrong, is cruel; and I resent the idea that myself - or anyone else on this board, - would excuse true cruelty (excessive punishment, abuse, etc.).

 

"He makes a law that procreation can only come from marriage yet breaks his own rules for Christ to be born. Then glorified that broken law. (adultery/fornication)"

 

He didn't have sex with Mary. The Bible tells us that His Holy Spirit "came upon" her, and that the power of the Highest "overshadowed" her. The law stated that procreation through sexual intercourse amongst humans could be the only kind of sex allowed (aside from showing love to each-other through fore-play). God didn't break His law; He just worked within it, as He always does. Furthermore, God never really glorified fornication or adultery. God did glorify Jesus, because it was His decision to come down here to save us, if we accept that.

 

"Having said that any young girl today that claimed she was a virgin and was knocked up, I'm sure you'll label her a harlot whore and liar. Do you use the same mindset when judging Mary?"

 

Luke (Lucanus, in the original Greek) was one of the best physicians of his day. Being Greek, even Jews came to him (which would, ordinarily, not be something for them to brag about; being treated by a Gentile physician). He had made his living - one might even say that he lived his life, - on his research. He knew fully, and well, the reprecussions of faulty research in his line of work. That means that something as outrageous as Mary being a pregnant virgin, if confirmed by him, and later found to be false, could ruin his career. And yet, history tells us that Lucanus was never sent to prison for his claims. That fact alone proves that Luke knew what he was doing when he researched the lives of Mary, Joseph, and Jesus; and furthermore, that he was accurate in his claims. We see also that, if Mary had been found to not be a virgin (which they knew how to check on even in that ancient time), she would have been stoned to death as an adulteress. However, she was found to be a virgin before Joseph married her (which probably scared the doctor to death, making him think he was going crazy! ). If I had encountered a girl who was "knocked up", I wouldn't pass judgment on her at all. I had many female friends in high school that were pregnant, and I never judged them for it (they did come to me for counsel and advice, and I did tell them that I thought that they were wrong to have sex at such a young age, but I never judged their character based on their mistakes. I never do, in any circumstance). I would try to get her some help throughout her pregnancy, and I would do all I could for her and her child (though the odds of another virgin birth in a human are nearly impossible {though, in some kinds of reptiles, they are fairly common in comparison}).

 

"He murders two cities over sex crimes then calls the ass who plants his seeds in his own daughters a 'righteous man', and saves him from being killed, then goes on to bless him. ( Lot)"

 

If you read the whole thing, you'll find out that they got Lot drunk, and raped him. He probably didn't know that either one of them was pregnant, let alone by him, until it was too late. If I had forced a man out of his house, to live in the mountains, I certainly wouldn't hold it against him if he got a little buzzed, but that's between him and God to sort out. After his daughters raped him (it's rare, but it happens), what other choice did he have, but to let them raise the kids in his house? He did what any good dad would; he was responsible for his new children. I don't know about God, but I'd call any dad that was willing to help raise kids that he didn't plan for a righteous man... especially in an age when it would be so easy and popular to just run away from them, and never see them again.

 

"Instead of just forgiving because he can, he requires blood and human sacrifices in his name (more Murder)"

 

Instead of breaking His rules, He worked within them to do what He could, until the time was right to send Jesus to us as our last - and only - sacrifice. I've never seen God sanction a religious sacrificing of humans in His name, except for His sacrifice of Christ on the cross. Blame Satan for making it so that God had to take such drastic measures to provide for His creations.

 

"He orders tribes to lose their land because of their bloodline (stealing)"

 

He was planning for the future; otherwise, He wouldn't have done it. Besides, from what you hear on the news, they've become quite powerful and dangerous since they began to gain that land back. Perhaps they should find land elsewhere, like my grandparents and great-grandparents did when they left the Old Country to come to America.

 

"Blesses Jacob when he steals his brothers birthright (Condones Stealing)"

 

He also allowed Jacob to suffer for that act, if you remember the story of Laban, and the strife in his own household (mainly between his two wives).

 

"Picked fruit on the Sabbath (Sabbath law)"

 

I might add that Jesus explained it this way: "Which of you, having lost a sheep in a well on the Sabbath, will not go to get it out?" "The Sabbath was made for man; not man for the Sabbath. Therefore, the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath".

 

"Christ yells at his mother and disrespects her publicly (Obey your parents Law)"

 

Christ also gave her another son, to take his place when He died.

 

Lest we forget John: "In the beginning was the Word; and the Word was with God, and the Word was God..."

 

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us..."

 

And Mary, herself, called herself a mere "vessel" for the Messiah to be born. Jesus was God long before Mary brought Him forth. That means that she wasn't His mother. However, to further prove my point...

 

When you are disciplining your children, do you talk nicely to them; even though they did what they knew was wrong? Mary knew that she wasn't Jesus' mother, and that Jesus was above her in importance. When she forgot, He reminded her. It seems strange, yes; but what about the Lord's life on Earth was normal?

 

"Slaughters the first born of every child born of Egypt not over free will but force. He forced and controlled Pharos actions then killed his people for not being able to exercise his own free will. And some how this is Justice and fairness?"

 

He slaughtered Pharaoh's people because He knew that Pharaoh was thick-headed, and thought of himself as God. Therefore, to show Pharaoh - and all of Egypt, - how wrong they were, even though they were most likely told how wrong they were by the Jews already, He left no doubt in Pharaoh's mind as to who was really God. If Pharaoh had just admitted beforehand that he wasn't God, this wouldn't have happened. Pharaoh was leading his people astray deliberately, just to keep his power over them. Hence, God showed the Egyptians just what kind of man Pharaoh could be, punished him for trying to claim God-hood over the one true God, and punished his people even more for their hatred and abuse of the Jews. How would letting them get away with their crimes be just or fair?

 

"Condemns people for eternal suffering and brutality over something as simple as disbelief and doubt"

 

Doubt: no. It's okay to doubt, if you don't know the answer. If you do know the answer, however, it's not okay.

 

Disbelief: yes. God provided the only way He could, at the best possible time, in a way that generations would be able to take advantage of; yet people would rather cater to themselves than obey God (not everyone, mind you; and, if you don't know better, you're not punished. The Bible tells us that those who are unsaved, and know no better, are not punished. They are kept in an area of Hell that is known to the Jews as "Sheol"; literally "the Grave", or "the Pit". It's a deep, dark place, where there is no pain or pleasure; you just go there to reminisce on your life, and where you went wrong. Many Jews went there beforehand, because Jesus hadn't yet come to save them. After Jesus died, before the resurrection, those that had believed He would come were freed from that place, and their sins were forgiven. God then allowed them into Heaven.

 

"Frankly Sir, with my own human justice measuring stick, I can't understand why people would worship and follow such an evil putrid idea of a god."

 

"Sir?" Am I really that old? I'm only 22!

 

If God had no good reason for what He did, I would be inclined to agree. However, God always has a reason for what He does. The Bible says, "'I know my plans for you', says the LORD; 'Plans for peace, and to make you prosper'". Everything He does is for the "greater good".

 

"Your god if put on trial would out murder Stalin,pol pot and Hitler combined. Yet you blindly attribute him as having some sorta 'morals'."

 

Out-kill, yes. Out-murder, no. No killing serves his own desires. He desires a place where there is no killing. However, until the appointed time, this will continue. At the appointed time, Creation will cease to function completely, and God will be able to step in without breaking His laws.

 

"How many people was satan convicted or recorded of murdering again........? You are going to say pride and vanity outdo your monster of a god on a justice scale? Are you crazy? LOL Isn't your god just as prideful and vain if not more so?"

 

Satan is responsible, either directly or indirectly, for all murder. Satan tempted every murderer to murder, and forced every soldier that killed into a position where he had to kill to stay alive and win the war. If it weren't for Satan, none of this would be happening...

 

My God is no monster. The picture you paint of Him is.

 

My God isn't prideful, or vain. He's practical. Why would you turn to a lesser source to get what you need, if the greatest source of all is waiting to help you - and all Creation, - however you need it?

 

"An abusive husband will tell his wife, Love me or suffer and die, Your god is no differnt."

 

There is a big difference, friend.

 

The abusive husband does that to soothe his own ego and to serve himself.

 

God doesn't even tell you that.

 

God says, "The best option is to do what I tell you, for the right reasons; not because you think it will please me and get me off your back, but because you love me, and it's the right thing to do. You have every right to choose to serve yourself; however, you must know that there are consequences to putting yourself above all others... most of which are the results of what you do. If you threaten other creations, I will step in to stop that threat. I do love you, and hope you love me too, but I won't have you endangering others because you want to put yourself in danger".

 

"You give your god the same lame ass excuse as people do other abusers."

 

I am deeply offended that you would put me in a category with abuse-enablers, just because you have a sour outlook on life, that you are always right all the time, and that you are above everything that is.

 

"The women has free will to be beat up and killed, it's her choice if that's what she wants. Hell and your self-loathing cult is the same mindset."

 

The woman can put up with that, if she wants to, or thinks that there is no other way. That's what Satan does: if you don't want to sin, he tries to convince you that there is no other way... that you must sin to survive.

 

On the other side of the coin, let's say it's the man being abused by the wife... psychologically. She tells him he's not good enough, accuses him of all kinds of problems - real, or otherwise, - and makes him feel bad for doing the only thing he can do to do the right thing. Then, she sleeps around on him. Is it his fault that she got some kind of venereal disease? Would you blame him for not wanting to have sex with her, after all of that? That's the way God is in such a situation: if you abuse Him, and do everything you can to defy Him, then He has no choice but to leave you to your own devices. If, however, you see the error of your ways and turn back to Him, truly sorry for what you've done and not planning to do it ever again, He will take you back... regardless of what happened before.

 

-RevDDM-

[Guest RevDDM]

Satan did have a desire to sin, after some time. He stopped thinking past himself, and started thinking that he himself was the most important individual. I can go no further than that; Satan's mind is obviously a messed-up place...

How do you know these intricate details about what happened in Heaven before the world was created? Let me ask you the question I get sometimes about the Big Bang: were you there?

 

I'm not too sure about what you mean by "fine-tuned universe argument", so I'll have to skip that one...

It's a pseudo-philosophical argument many apologists use to prove that God must exist.

 

I can tell you this: Heaven was created as a place for beings to be close to God, but not too close. Earth is a place which was intended as God's favourite artistic creation. Obviously, being closer to God, Heaven would be more perfect.

Then it is good to die?

 

I'm not saying Earth is perfect; I do, however, believe that the proof of it's creation is self-evident (as a plane of existence).

That "self-evident" argument isn't so obvious to me. And even if it was, why does that prove YHWH+Jesus+HolySpirit (3 gods in 1 god? What is self-evident to say that Jesus magically made the world with his pinky will singing twinkle-twinkle-little-star? It's just stories. No evidence.

 

So did God create the bacteria and the virus before the fall, or after the fall, or did Satan create them? (Because I can't find where you answered that question earlier)

 

"How do you know these intricate details about what happened in Heaven before the world was created? Let me ask you the question I get sometimes about the Big Bang: were you there?"

 

They were reveald to us, through inspiration, by God Himself. If we go from there, we can probably prove them. It's true that it's a hypothesis, but isn't that how scientific discoveries start?

 

"It's a pseudo-philosophical argument many apologists use to prove that God must exist."

 

I figured that... Even so, it still eludes me. If you can, please provide an example of it.

 

"Then it is good to die?"

 

It's not good to die; however, if you've properly prepared yourself, it's not something to be feared.

 

"That 'self-evident' argument isn't so obvious to me. And even if it was, why does that prove YHWH+Jesus+HolySpirit (3 gods in 1 god? What is self-evident to say that Jesus magically made the world with his pinky will singing twinkle-twinkle-little-star? It's just stories. No evidence."

 

LOL In any case, the evidence can be found in the strategic structuring of the smallest materials known to humankind. On any scale, a clear and concise structure can be found... even on a macrocosmic one. Scientists, for example, found a "blank spot" in space. If this universe were created at random, how do you explain that scientists have yet to find any other such spot? (I'm not talking about black holes, here. They found a spot where no gravitational field, nor even dark matter, could be found.)

 

"So did God create the bacteria and the virus before the fall, or after the fall, or did Satan create them? (Because I can't find where you answered that question earlier)"

 

Unfortunately, I didn't have time to earlier. God did create them; however, before Satan caused God's order in Creation to be marred forever, they were harmless. They had no predisposition to change their environment upon entering a host. When they did enter a host, it was a symbiotic relationship, but it was a harmless one: the invader would most likely only feed on a small portion of nutrients from the digested food, rather than the host itself. If it were the other way around, then surely the e.coli in our bodies would be responsible for our destruction. It seems that certain strains of viri and bacteria have not changed so much as to become harmful. I propose that some other function might have changed about them; for instance, maybe certain strains can no longer exist outside of certain environments; whereas, before, they could easily survive outside their host.

 

-RevDDM-

[Antlerman]

"Like Daoism, Paganism, Wicca, Buddhism and naturalism?"

 

While all these, and other religions, have excellent philosophies, they also - from what I understand, - do not offer a solution to undoing the effects of your mistakes on your spirit. Every mistake you deliberately make (sin) has an adverse effect on your soul. Christianity offers a way to undo that effect.

Hi Rev, I’m sure you’re working on a response to my other post, but wanted to pull this out to look at.

 

I hear a lot of assumptions going on here. “Undoing the effects of mistakes”? You mean guilt? Guilt is what religion like Christianity teaches you should feel, then surprisingly turn around and sell you the cure for it. It’s marketing. Being a minister, I’m sure you know a few things about marketing. “Create the need, then sell to it.”

 

I’ve recently been focused on the pessimism of Christianity. The way you just stated, “Undoing the effects of mistakes”, shows your focus on BAD. Why not focus on good? Why say humans fall short, instead of saying humans achieve? You see where I’m going? Some of these other religions may not have to even deal with the questions you raise because their focus isn’t about pointing out that you are a sinful, terrible person serving Satan and worthy of eternal damnation.

 

See the difference? I say those other religions are healthier because of this.

 

Your response?

[Guest RevDDM]

"Rev, you simply cannot deny that according to your scenario, God gave Satan the potential to sin, which you call 'free will'. It came from God. There was nothing in the universe before that point corresponding to sin, right? How could a creation of God's pull somthing out of thin air that previously never existed and which God hates? WHERE DID THIS IMPULSE COME FROM IF NOT FROM GOD?"

 

I will concede to that. I don't know. I never claimed to know everything... especially about God.

Ok that's a better answer than saying Lucifer merely "developed" evil. This is what my post was getting at and you now concede by saying you don't know. That's a good start, but hardly a good position to argue a truth from, wouldn't you say? We'll pick up from this later in a seperate post.

 

However, I pose a question to you: if there is no god, then (an oldie, but still good,) how does everything exist? Surely, nothing in this universe is permanent. That means everything had to come from somewhere... even the "big bang", if there ever was one.

An oldie but more than a goodie response is that it doesn't take God to explain where the universe came from. No one in science ever claims that everything came from nothing. That's only what apologist detractors try to make science saying in order to criticize it. No scientist says this. However..... this is exactly what the apologist in turn argues: that everything did come out of nothing - including God.

 

Just because we may not yet know the "how" of something is not an automatic vote for the "god did it" argument. There absolutely no evidence of that being the answer to the question of how.

 

Satan accuses God of being unfair. He accuses God of being something of a fascist dictator. If Satan were allowed to claim these things uncontested, he could lead many people into doing dangerous things... like even greater levels of pollution and crime. That's why God gives us the choice: if He didn't, we'd all eventually see Him as "der fuhrer", and rebel... throwing creation into chaos and destruction. Thus, God allows evil to exist, to prove that He has given us freedom... and to show us how bad it is.

How completely Westernized you are in dualistic thinking.

 

Can you please describe for me what evil is, and what good is. Let's discuss this to try to identify what is really chaos, and what is really order. OK?

 

God limited His power, to stabilize His creations. If He threw out the Word every time He wanted to make a change, nothing would exist as we know it... it might even be worse... That's why, among other reasons, God restricts Himself. Another reason is to prove to Satan that He can follow His own rules, and still help the forces of good win in the end.

"Forces of good win in the end". Exactly what is that? Win over what? Life?

 

If Heaven were here and now, we'd all wonder about what we were missing out on by obeying the rules... We'd all end up like Lucifer... Lucifer would win, and the Creation that God loves so much would be ruined. The hope remains, to entice us to choose good over evil, but the temptation to choose the immediate gratification over the longer-reigning satisfaction can be quite powerful...

 

-RevDDM-

You know honestly Reverend, could you try to step back for one minute and understand how all of this is so easily recognized as nothing more than a system of man using a god as a symbol to follow rules of a society? That's all most religions do essentially, and I see nothing different here.

 

As far as your analogy, how about little babies who die and go to heaven. What did they learn about obeying rules? Or does God reject them and send them to hell?

 

I reject Christian theology, and I don't believe a god exists, yet I live more morally than I did when I was a Christian, and frankly I have never felt better about the beauty of life and hope and wonder than I did when I was a Christian. Most everyone without exception on this site says the same thing. I've often mused, "I'm more a Christian now that I'm not one, than I ever was when I was one." So much for rejecting god and going off in pursuit of chaos and destruction. It's easy for others to say how things are for those who reject God, when they never actually talk to those who live it.

 

"Ok that's a better answer than saying Lucifer merely "developed" evil. This is what my post was getting at and you now concede by saying you don't know. That's a good start, but hardly a good position to argue a truth from, wouldn't you say? We'll pick up from this later in a seperate post."

 

Hey, I calls 'em as I sees 'em...

 

Like a scientist, I try to find out what I can before presenting my hypothesis. If I don't know the answer, then I say "I'm stumped. Let's find out what we can about it".

 

"An oldie but more than a goodie response is that it doesn't take God to explain where the universe came from. No one in science ever claims that everything came from nothing. That's only what apologist detractors try to make science saying in order to criticize it. No scientist says this. However..... this is exactly what the apologist in turn argues: that everything did come out of nothing - including God."

 

I don't say that. I say that God exists outside of time's flow; and, since He does, He has neither an origin, nor an end.

 

"Just because we may not yet know the "how" of something is not an automatic vote for the "god did it" argument. There absolutely no evidence of that being the answer to the question of how."

 

I agree. However, I also agree that "when you have eliminated the impossible, the end result - no matter how improbable, - must be the truth."

 

"How completely Westernized you are in dualistic thinking.

 

Can you please describe for me what evil is, and what good is. Let's discuss this to try to identify what is really chaos, and what is really order. OK?"

 

Evil is something that destroys or corrupts what has already been set into place as the way things should be. Good is the way, which has been set into place, for things to be, in harmony with each-other: none infringing on another, none corrupting another to a way that wouldn't fit.

 

How's that for a description?

 

Let's try this...

 

The Twin Towers were good: they were built on solid construction, and didn't interfere with other buildings. The terrorists were sinners, and what they did was evil: by crashing into the buildings, they caused the buildings to fall; not only upsetting other buildings in their path, but causing the murders of thousands of innocent victims in the process, and the sickness of tens of thousands. That's the difference. Now, apply that to a grand scale; and, instead of Satan crashing into creation's order, imagine that Satan is slowly dripping acid on one of the support beams of Creation's order.

 

""Forces of good win in the end". Exactly what is that? Win over what? Life?"

 

The forces of good will restore order to the remains of the creations that Chaos and Evil have corrupted and destroyed.

 

"You know honestly Reverend, could you try to step back for one minute and understand how all of this is so easily recognized as nothing more than a system of man using a god as a symbol to follow rules of a society? That's all most religions do essentially, and I see nothing different here."

 

It might be construed as that... but that's not my intent. I am truly sorry if I led you to believe that this was what I was trying to do. I believe that God gave us the rules, and we should follow them to the best of our ability. When we make a mistake, God has provided a way to rectify it in using Christ's sacrifice to gain forgiveness from God, and doing all we can to undo the mess we've made. This is regardless of society.

 

"As far as your analogy, how about little babies who die and go to heaven. What did they learn about obeying rules? Or does God reject them and send them to hell?"

 

The Bible says that nobody is really held accountable for their guilt, until they realize that they are guilty. From then on, they can be judged by God. Babies can't possibly realize that they're guilty by any standard, so God does allow them into Heaven. Having known nothing but the way things are supposed to be, it is natural for them to do things that way.

 

"I reject Christian theology, and I don't believe a god exists, yet I live more morally than I did when I was a Christian, and frankly I have never felt better about the beauty of life and hope and wonder than I did when I was a Christian."

 

For that, I am happy for you... psychologically, you seem to be in a pretty good place. Now, as far as being better off spiritually... you got the idea that Christianity is all about being a slave to a senseless system, yes? I am here to show to everyone that this is not the case. Christianity is about freedom from the impulse to sin, and forgiveness of the sins one has committed. It is also about living right, and doing good. If that's slavery, then I'm happy in those chains. I'm sorry that you were introduced to such an idea of Christianity as you were, and that it made you sour on the whole experience, but I also hope that you can someday understand that you can live morally, feel good about life's beauty, and be filled with hope and wonder, and still be a Christian.

 

"Most everyone without exception on this site says the same thing. I've often mused, "I'm more a Christian now that I'm not one, than I ever was when I was one." So much for rejecting god and going off in pursuit of chaos and destruction. It's easy for others to say how things are for those who reject God, when they never actually talk to those who live it."

 

You're right. Many Christians - myself included, until today, - had a negative idea about those who reject God and Christianity. While I don't agree with your rejection of Christ, I do agree that you seem to have the idea of the Christian life down. The salvation thing is the only part you seem to lack, but I won't push you into it: it's your choice.

 

-Rev-

[Guest RevDDM]

I tend to find that people who make loud, Ex-Cathedra comments about what sort of hell the world would be without Christ are usually using the religion as a reason not to become a serial killer

 

Isn't that a little prejudiced? I have no desire to become a serial killer, and I believe that.

[Guest RevDDM]

Rev, you say "It's not that, if you use your free will, you end up in Hell. It's, rather, that you end up in Hell for abusing it. Satan abused his free will, and has tried to tempt all of creation into abusing theirs, as well. Not only can you choose to worship God in your own way - according to the Bible, - as long as it comes from the heart; but you can also choose how to make your environment a better place, and how to help other people make their lives better. To change the rules in service to yourself is abusing that freedom of will, not just using it."

 

Rev, the way you are using "free will" here, it seems to have more power than god. This just makes no sense. Please think about it before continuing to make statements like that above. There is no such thing as absolute free will. In fact, I think the evidence is good that "free will" is only an illusion. The options and tendencies to will or make a choice this way or that must come from somewhere, as you at least partially admitted before, therefore it cannot be "free".

 

Another question, why does god need worship at all?

 

Rev R: "Humans can't create morality; because morality is following the rules however you can, with the least trouble in your own life."

 

I still don't see how humans can't have created morality. I do not understand your definition of morality, either, Rev. It seems perfectly sensible to me that humans had to create rules or laws for themselves in order to co-exist together in social groups. That is human nature-- to exist and co-operate in groups because it had the greatest survival value for us. I don't see the need for another explanation.

 

"Rev, the way you are using "free will" here, it seems to have more power than god. This just makes no sense. Please think about it before continuing to make statements like that above. There is no such thing as absolute free will. In fact, I think the evidence is good that "free will" is only an illusion. The options and tendencies to will or make a choice this way or that must come from somewhere, as you at least partially admitted before, therefore it cannot be "free"."

 

Free will doesn' have more power than God; Free will is one of God's many gifts to us.

 

As to where free will comes from... while it does come from God, it's yours to use as you see fit. If you buy a clay pot that I make, doesn't that mean that you can use it for... whatever?

 

"Another question, why does god need worship at all?"

 

God doesn't need it... it's just that He likes being credited for His work...

[Japedo]

-RevDDM-

 

 

 

 

Holy Shit batman, so much to say so little time to say it.... I'm going to chop this post into smaller bites and briefly address answers in a nutshell.. First let me say........

 

I'm shocked and appalled.. and I am amazed at your willingness to fall over yourself to defend the monster you worship. So now you're going to mince words, Killing and committing genocide of populations of people isn't murder if it's done for the 'right' reasons?

 

 

Children are to blame if their father (Not just any father mind you, one of the most righteous ones) impregnates them, yeah the kids got him drunk that's why he fucked them, that's the ticket. He was sober enough to get it up wasn't he? You have zero evidence that his children raped him, and to answer that bullshit lameass copout, why would god also save them as being 'righteous if they were just as evil as the city. Lot also offered his two daughters up to a mob to be raped to save the angels... what's your defense of that? A dad would offer his "VIRGIN" kids up to a mad mob to be raped and then oddly enough they end up pregnant with his seed... Yeah I'm sure it was the girls who victimized the dad..Would you honestly sit on a jury and accept these bullshit lame answers that you attempted to hoist upon us from an accused person? You actually have to lower (well, maybe you don't but most do) your humanity, dignity and morals to defend or accept this.

 

You can't even prove Jesus Christ lived, forget *IF* his mother was a virgin. As far as the birthright, and Sabbath... You are far reaching. Every family has strife to some degree, that is not a punishment, that's life. Then in one answer You say God can't break his own rules and in another say the rules weren't made for him to follow. How convenient... Yet you're going to also say he's never sinned. LOL Of course if you keep moving the scale as to what sin is,... He has a different set of rules so any time he does sin.. you say that doesn't count. LOL He can't even follow what he expects mere mortals to follow.

 

 

About punishment, It's suppose to be a corrective measure is it not? How is hell and torture forever a tool to correct? How can you call a being love who burns people for eternity over a simple disbelief, it's okay to doubt but not disbelieve? Again with the word mincing. I highly doubt Christ and the buybull story is True, hence I disbelieve. So it's not the doubt that will burn me, it's for following logical conclusions that will LOL

 

 

There is a huge part of your post I'm going to go into detail.. and I'll do that with my next Comment.

[Deva]

Free will doesn' have more power than God; Free will is one of God's many gifts to us.

 

Yeah, sure Rev, some gift if using it gets us sent to hell.

You just don't get it, Rev. You are just not "free" to do whatever. There are a million antecedent reasons why people chose to do a particular thing, influences, the nervous system of that particular person, I could go on and on.

[Deva]

"Another question, why does god need worship at all?"

 

God doesn't need it... it's just that He likes being credited for His work...

 

So we are being punished for not doing something god doesn't even need. Why would he like credit? You are just avoiding the question because it speaks to the character of your "moral" god.

[Guest RevDDM]

If God created everything, and is cruel and mean, why would He give us the free will to decide to either accept or reject Him?

 

Rev, have you ever really deeply considered how much of this whole "plan" of god's that you describe hinges upon this notion of "free will". What if that is false? It is certainly questionable. What if everything is determined? Just entertain that possiblity.

 

I don't believe that absolutely everything hinges on free will. I believe that God anticipated the possibilities of what free will would bring, and created "contingency laws". For example: if man wanted to break all God's laws, man would throw Creation into turmoil. Therefore, God puts laws into place that stop man from breaking all His laws (such as certain laws of physics).

 

Yes, our destinies are pre-ordained to a certain extent; however, we can also choose what actions we use to illicit the reaction of our destinies.

 

By the way, I'm moving soon, so I might not be able to respond to any more repiles for a long time. I will be back as soon as I can.

 

Take care, all.

 

-Rev-

[Deva]

I don't believe that absolutely everything hinges on free will. I believe that God anticipated the possibilities of what free will would bring, and created "contingency laws". For example: if man wanted to break all God's laws, man would throw Creation into turmoil. Therefore, God puts laws into place that stop man from breaking all His laws (such as certain laws of physics).

 

Yes, our destinies are pre-ordained to a certain extent; however, we can also choose what actions we use to illicit the reaction of our destinies.

 

By the way, I'm moving soon, so I might not be able to respond to any more repiles for a long time. I will be back as soon as I can.

 

Take care, all.

 

-Rev-

 

Makes god's character even worse that he "anticipated the possiblitiesof what free will would bring, and created "contingency laws" doesn't it? He doesn't even have the excuse of innocence. The laws of physics are not what we are discussing, are they? We are talking about the character of god.

 

You say "...we can also choose what actions we use to illicit the reaction of our destinies." I have no idea what this means. Please rephrase it.

 

You don't mean you are leaving? Please come back so we can hear more and further demolish your arguments.

[Guest RevDDM]

-RevDDM-

 

 

 

 

Holy Shit batman, so much to say so little time to say it.... I'm going to chop this post into smaller bites and briefly address answers in a nutshell.. First let me say........

 

I'm shocked and appalled.. and I am amazed at your willingness to fall over yourself to defend the monster you worship. So now you're going to mince words, Killing and committing genocide of populations of people isn't murder if it's done for the 'right' reasons?

 

 

Children are to blame if their father (Not just any father mind you, one of the most righteous ones) impregnates them, yeah the kids got him drunk that's why he fucked them, that's the ticket. He was sober enough to get it up wasn't he? You have zero evidence that his children raped him, and to answer that bullshit lameass copout, why would god also save them as being 'righteous if they were just as evil as the city. Lot also offered his two daughters up to a mob to be raped to save the angels... what's your defense of that? A dad would offer his "VIRGIN" kids up to a mad mob to be raped and then oddly enough they end up pregnant with his seed... Yeah I'm sure it was the girls who victimized the dad..Would you honestly sit on a jury and accept these bullshit lame answers that you attempted to hoist upon us from an accused person? You actually have to lower (well, maybe you don't but most do) your humanity, dignity and morals to defend or accept this.

 

You can't even prove Jesus Christ lived, forget *IF* his mother was a virgin. As far as the birthright, and Sabbath... You are far reaching. Every family has strife to some degree, that is not a punishment, that's life. Then in one answer You say God can't break his own rules and in another say the rules weren't made for him to follow. How convenient... Yet you're going to also say he's never sinned. LOL Of course if you keep moving the scale as to what sin is,... He has a different set of rules so any time he does sin.. you say that doesn't count. LOL He can't even follow what he expects mere mortals to follow.

 

 

About punishment, It's suppose to be a corrective measure is it not? How is hell and torture forever a tool to correct? How can you call a being love who burns people for eternity over a simple disbelief, it's okay to doubt but not disbelieve? Again with the word mincing. I highly doubt Christ and the buybull story is True, hence I disbelieve. So it's not the doubt that will burn me, it's for following logical conclusions that will LOL

 

 

There is a huge part of your post I'm going to go into detail.. and I'll do that with my next Comment.

 

That kind of animosity is a huge reason why Christians have such a negative perception of atheists, and other non-Christians. If you can't have a civil discussion, you resort to back-biting, name-calling, and other infantile tactics? People with your kind of attitude give "ex-christians" and atheists a bad name. Where, in any of my posts, did I attack you? Perhaps you're attacking me because you know, deep down inside yourself, that you really have no argument, and you're just pulling pieces of the Bible out at random to try to trip people up.

 

As to why Lot offered his own daughters... Don't you think he realized that the crowd wouldn't do anything to them? Obviously, the crowd wanted to have homosexual sex... meaning that they were aroused by the MEN! What, exactly, would a gay man do with a straight woman? Ask any gay man, and they'll probably tell you the same thing: NOTHING! At the worst, they might have cast the girls out of the city, whereupon they could return to Abraham and live with him. In any case, there are many times when people made up ideas and reasons that they knew wouldn't work, just to stall for time. Take, for example, the Pharaoh and the Jewish mid-wives. When they were asked why they didn't kill the boys, they stalled for time by making up the story that Jewish women give birth too fast. Did the Pharaoh stop the killings? NO! It just bought them some more time, so they could figure out how to get rid of the boys, without killing them. But, do you criticize the Egyptians for their atrocities against the Israelites? NO! Do you, likewise, criticize the communists for their beating and killing of political dissidents, and non-violent Christians? Have I seen anything where you lament their crimes against humanity? NO! So, what you're saying is that it's okay for Christians and Jews to die, but it's not okay for us to fight back. Any you judge mine, and my God's morality!

 

As to how we know that Lot could have been raped... If Lot were that kind of pervert, don't you think he'd have started raping his daughters in his own home? Yet, he refers to them as virgins! It seems you're the one who is favouring the offenders over the victim, and believing them, on the prejudice that the victim was drunk, and the offenders were teen-aged girls! I wonder, how many times would you have gotten a female rapist off on charges of rape or molestation?

 

You say there is no proof that Jesus Christ lived... Check out the Judeo-Claudian Histories! Ask any Jew! For that matter, go to Jerusalem, and see His crypt and the manger where He was "born"! And you think I'm blind! At least most of the others on this board are smart enough to see the evidence when it stares them in the face!

 

I ask you this: were the veterans of the Viet-Nam War monsters, because they killed children that would have eventually blown up the bases through which they were marched by the Viet-Kong and the North Vietnamese Army, or was it the Viet-Kong and the N.V.A. themselves, who were the monsters? Perhaps you are the one who is morally bankrupt...

 

Furthermore, you have already proven how little of the Bible you actually understand by taking one verse, or another, and interpreting it to serve your own purposes. Maybe, if you actually read the entire book, you would be able to make a more impressive argument.

 

-R.D.-