Five Questions That Christians Can't Answer

[Grandpa Harley]

He's not imaginary, Ace. If He didn't exist, neither would you, because He's in you. He's the breath that you breathe. Newsflash; if your spirit leaves your body, your body dies. God hid Himself in the last place He knew man would look........in man. He was there all along, but religion lied to us and told us He was "out there" somewhere and we had to ask Him to come in. Funny..........yet He said He would never leave us or forsake us...........I hate religion, personally. It has killed more people than all the world wars put together........but hey, that's just me ........

 

Great line in crazy you pedal. You sure you work in the field, rather than an inmate?

[Japedo]

He's not imaginary, Ace. If He didn't exist, neither would you, because He's in you. He's the breath that you breathe.

 

 

 

 

Just because you talk to a giant that lives in the sky doesn't mean it's real to the rest of us. I honestly thought you were going to start bursting into song with the way your post was going...

 

 

 

[mwc]

Yes, well actually, the original language says, "born from above", which makes a great deal of difference and uncovers another doctrinal error of the mainstream camp.

You mean this phrase: "γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν" from John 3:3 "Jesus said to him, Truly, I say to you, Without a new birth no man is able to see the kingdom of God. (BiBE)" It's translated "new birth" here.

 

Other possible meanings for the original language (keeping it brief since this is off-topic):

1. above (from)

from above, from the first.

2. again

adverb of place or time (from ἄνω (anŠ507) above, and θεν (then) denoting from. Local — from above; temporal — from of old, from the beginning).

3. beginning (from the)

of place, from above; of time, from the beginning.

4. first (from the very)

 

So what makes your interpretation the proper interpretation? Just being the first in the list doesn't make it correct.

 

mwc

[Toaster]

"In other words.. What we read isn't what is ment nor originally stated, *if* only we learned a little bit O' this and a little bit O' that from all the different sorta kinda true â„¢ Sources then we can find the True â„¢ hidden path to gawd and the eternal road to life.. "

 

Yes, and no. What we read is what was meant, but only on ONE level of understanding. It has layers of understanding HIDDEN in it, purposely hidden, the same way He spoke to the multitude in parables, but explained things to the disciples in greater detail. He said in Isaiah that He teaches line upon line, precept upon precept. The translators read and understood line upon line, but they didn't understand the precepts. That didn't mean the precepts were not there, they just didn't see them. The precepts are what is HIDDEN in plain sight. Once you begin to see the precepts, then you can begin to see the fragments of truth that are hidden in other places.

 

A precept is a principle and it's like a flower bud. If you have never seen that particular flower before, you have no idea what that bud bloom will look like once unfolded. But once you see the flower in bloom, you will recognize it again if you see it somewhere else.

 

An example of a precept is, God separates the light from the darkness. You'll find this precept in some form in probably all religions, but if you don't understand that light/mind of Christ/understanding/sheep is the same and darkness/carnally minded/ignorance/goats, is the same, then you won't see the precept in the depth that's needed to understand what He was REALLY saying. He wants to separate the sheep from the goats alright, but BOTH are NATURES that are IN US. That's why He said not to disturb the tares for it would damage the wheat, too.

[Grandpa Harley]

Indeed, why his eisegesis is more correct than the exegesis is hubris...

 

However, it is a valid translation... Maybe we're just jealous that the voices don't speak to us...

[Grandpa Harley]

"In other words.. What we read isn't what is ment nor originally stated, *if* only we learned a little bit O' this and a little bit O' that from all the different sorta kinda true â„¢ Sources then we can find the True â„¢ hidden path to gawd and the eternal road to life.. "

 

Yes, and no. What we read is what was meant, but only on ONE level of understanding. It has layers of understanding HIDDEN in it, purposely hidden, the same way He spoke to the multitude in parables, but explained things to the disciples in greater detail. He said in Isaiah that He teaches line upon line, precept upon precept. The translators read and understood line upon line, but they didn't understand the precepts. That didn't mean the precepts were not there, they just didn't see them. The precepts are what is HIDDEN in plain sight. Once you begin to see the precepts, then you can begin to see the fragments of truth that are hidden in other places.

 

A precept is a principle and it's like a flower bud. If you have never seen that particular flower before, you have no idea what that bud bloom will look like once unfolded. But once you see the flower in bloom, you will recognize it again if you see it somewhere else.

 

An example of a precept is, God separates the light from the darkness. You'll find this precept in some form in probably all religions, but if you don't understand that light/mind of Christ/understanding/sheep is the same and darkness/carnally minded/ignorance/goats, is the same, then you won't see the precept in the depth that's needed to understand what He was REALLY saying. He wants to separate the sheep from the goats alright, but BOTH are NATURES that are IN US. That's why He said not to disturb the tares for it would damage the wheat, too.

 

Who says in Isaiah?

[Toaster]

Well, because of the principle that no scripture is of any private interpretation. That means that once the PRECEPT is revealed, ALL the scripture will bear witness, because He has hidden the precepts all thru there in every chapter from Genesis to Revelation.

 

So thus we read that OUR MOTHER is New Jerusalem, and she is ABOVE. This is why Jesus speaking only what He heard said, to Nicodemus who asked how could he go back into his mother's womb again, and He didn't correct him for this idea but instead said, WHAT IS IMPOSSIBLE WITH MAN IS POSSIBLE WITH GOD.

[Grandpa Harley]

oooh ALL CAPITAL SENTENCES... The internet version of writing in crayon.

[Deva]

No, the hell doctrine dates from the 3rd century. The writings are not in serious error, the understanding of it is, because the translators in the 3rd century didn't understand the principles themselves. Constantine the emperor, was the one who assembled the translators, and he had his own agenda.

 

The lake of fire is another example. God is described as a consuming fire, and it says He makes HIS ministers a flame of fire. When you get a whole bunch of flames together, you could describe it as a "lake" of fire. If you understand the message of the burning bush that was NOT CONSUMED/DESTROYED, then you realize that all it means is, He changes the nature of that thing into His nature, and BOTH are still whole. Nothing is lost in God's economy, just as energy cannot be destroyed but simply changes form.

 

It also says that the carnal mind is emnity against God, and that is why we are only separated from Him in our minds. We were created with a built in enemy. No soldier is worthy until proven in battle, just like a muscle that never gets exercise. This is why the first article of our spiritual armor was called the "helmet of salvation". The mind is a battleground. The carnal mind is like a woman's womb; it reproduces the nature of whatever seed is planted in it. This is why the soul is feminine in language structure and in type. The soul we were created with consists of the mind, will, emotions, and desires. The Spirit is male in type because the Spirit/male plants the "seed". First natural, then spiritual.

 

Well I guess I am just ignorant as dirt, and a woman to boot (probably why my mind is "carnal"). Two strikes against me. I see--a fire isn't really a fire. Really stupid of me to think the Bible really means what it says.

[Grandpa Harley]

and Who says in Isaiah?

[Toaster]

God said in Isaiah, line upon line, precept upon precept.........that's how He teaches and why the NT says that ye need not that ANY MAN should teach you (kinda destroys the whole of Babylon doesn't it?), but that the SPIRIT shall teach you and bring all things to your remembrance.........

 

See, what He wants us to remember is who we were when we were one with Him from the foundation of the world. That's why it says our identity (means nature of the Spirit within) is HID IN CHRIST, and Col. says, Christ IN YOU, is the hope of glory, and Romans 8 talks about the glory of God which shall be REVEALED IN US. The book of Revelation (not RevelationS, as we were told) tells us in the first line of the first chapter what it is about. The revelation of Jesus Christ. Christ is a Spirit. Revelation there is a word that means to uncover, unveil, manifest and John states it ALL happens in the temple. Know ye not ye are the temple of the living God?

 

Religion sold us a bill of goods that was tainted with the death of the carnal minds of men; there was no life of the Spirit in it, so it brought forth out of the seed that was planted........more death and condemnation, for only understanding the law/letter/line upon line and ministering out of it brings death. The law/letter/line upon line of understanding, ministers death to the hearer. That's why I said it KILLS. Yet Romans 8 says there is NOW NO CONDEMNATION to those who are in Christ Jesus.

[Toaster]

No, all minds are carnal, as opposed to Spiritual, and are feminine in nature. That's why He said to be carnally minded is death. It's not an insult to anyone, that's just the pattern we were made with. And the word darkness literally means "ignorance". Paul said when he was a child he spoke as a child. God spoke to us the same way. There are 3 different Greek words in there, all translated as sons but they really are 3 ages represented. One is a child, one is a teenager, and one is a mature son. God wants to raise up mature sons, just as we don't want our children to stay children forever.

[Mythra]

Hey Toaster -

 

You did get the ex-christian part of this site, right?

 

Most of us had a relationship with Jesus played your version of pretend for years and years.

 

And now you're gonna give us a Sunday School lesson?

 

Give me a break.

[Deva]

No, all minds are carnal, as opposed to Spiritual, and are feminine in nature. That's why He said to be carnally minded is death. It's not an insult to anyone, that's just the pattern we were made with. And the word darkness literally means "ignorance". Paul said when he was a child he spoke as a child. God spoke to us the same way. There are 3 different Greek words in there, all translated as sons but they really are 3 ages represented. One is a child, one is a teenager, and one is a mature son. God wants to raise up mature sons, just as we don't want our children to stay children forever.

 

Don't worry, we aren't insulted, we just couldn't care less.

[Mythra]

If you really want to explain your book, tell me why Yahweh was satiated by the stoning and burning of ACHAN'S INNOCENT LITTLE KIDS in the book of Joshua.

 

Or should I say Jesus did it? Since he was with the Father from the beginning, Jesus gets equal credit for the godly atrocities in the OT.

[Toaster]

Yes, and I also got the part about being able to post anything in this section........and I don't go to church, so the Sunday school lesson doesn't apply to me. God is not interested in making cookie-cutter Christians........He never was.........He's interested in raising up mature sons (re-read Romans 8) that are done with the fables of men. Which is why Paul prayed that the eyes of our understanding would be opened......

[Mythra]

Okay. I see. Your mind only works in scripture mode.

 

Let me be the first person here to put you on ignore.

[mwc]

By your reasoning, B would, but neither is correct. Hell means "separation from God", and there are many walking the face of the earth that are separated from God NOW. No need to go to another "place". That's why the scripture states we are only separated from Him in our MINDS. I won't bore you with details but there are many that have done the studies on the original languages and found that this doctrine was added later and misunderstood, which is why Paul, who wrote most of the NT never managed to devote much to it.

Nifty little song and dance you've got going but if you're going to try for technicalities and loopholes then you should note that Paul didn't write most of the NT but rather was included more than others when the NT was compiled and canonized. There was no method to his madness so to speak. He just wrote (and nearly half of what people thought he wrote then...well...people no longer think he wrote now...so much for Paul).

 

2) People who speak of "hell" associate it with divine punishment, but punishment is usually used as a corrective measure. How do people suffering in an eternal hell learn their lesson? Doesn't that make hell mere torture with absolutely no point to it?

 

Yes, it does. And it goes back to erroneous teaching added around the 3rd century.

Seems you're one of the types that believe the "teachings" were good and pure at one point and then the "church" mucked them all up around the time of Constantine and Nicea. Not that things didn't happen at that time but things didn't only happen at that time.

 

3) There are thousands of different denominations in Christianity, each thinking they have it right. All other religions think that they have it right, as well. How can you be sure that you have it right, when the odds are that you are actually wrong?

 

Therefore, knowing one Truth allows you to see it's mirror image in the creation, because the creation is His witness. So by this same principle, then it is easy to see that ALL religions have a fragment of Truth in them, which is why He told Adam (insert your name here, we are all Adam, a many membered body) he could eat of all the trees in the "garden" BUT one. We are referred to as trees, all of us, and we all bear fruit, of one kind or another.

 

Another example would be the natural colors; in the natural all colors come from the 3 primary colors of red, blue, and yellow. These are; red (the Son/blood), blue(the spirit/color of the heavens over us), and yellow(color of gold/representative of the higher nature of God the Father. All the heavens (this realm is a "heaven" too) declare His glory, ie. reveal His attributes/nature.

Egads. Here's what I see when I read the above "We see what we want to see and I want to see some patterns that somehow reinforce my fringe beliefs. 3 is a magic number."

 

Asherah is also trees. A grove. YHWH liked her but then changed his mind when he didn't want a consort anymore. He then took the temple for himself and got rid of her. Too bad for her. Ancients worshiped groves of trees as symbols of their relatives. Egyptians did this for many centuries. You aren't saying anything very original to me but you're sure trying to make it sound like your religion has a lock on these ideas.

 

As far as your color palette goes...it's flawed. From the wiki on RYB color:

RYB uses pigments, which are not added, and thus combining colors using the RYB color system will result in a darker color. Because of this it is impossible to create magenta, because its value would normally be the combined value of Red and Blue, but combining them using pigments creates a darker color (namely purple or violet). Because of this any color in between red and blue must be darker than red and blue, and any color between yellow and red or yellow and blue must be darker than yellow.

It can't create magenta. Wow. Impressive model. Tells me a lot about you, your "god," and your belief system.

 

The Father is a Spirit, and His seed is a SPIRIT, enrobed in flesh. That is why it was said that He was tempted in all things as we are, because he was a flesh man, not diety. What was diety was within Him, and is within us all.

 

Christ is Greek for Messiah, and it means anointed, or anointed ONE, and it was His title, not His name. The scripture states that God the Father was in Christ (the seed) reconciling ALL MEN unto Himself. The problem was that they didn't connect the scripture that states that He (Christ seed) is the light of ALL MEN that come into the world. So if He is in all men, and God is in Him/Christ, and God is reconciling all men unto Himself, then the true gospel (means good news) is just what the scripture states it is; the gospel is........the death, burial, and resurrection of CHRIST (the seed).

 

Why is that good news? Because if the same Spirit which raised CHRIST from the dead dwells in you (and I've already established it/He does), then He shall also quicken YOUR mortal bodies. Quicken there, in the original language, means to speed up, or make alive. Being lowered into the bondage of corruption, "slowed down our spirits", if you will, so much so we identified with that state of sleep or "death" of the body, unable to perceive our spiritual origins. Even scientists bear this witness, as matter/natural realm is found to be slowed down energy (Spirit).

So the Gnostics were basically right?

 

Christ is Greek for annointed. It's roughly the same as Hebrew for annointed which is (roughly) messiah but the intent is quite different. That doesn't come across in the translation. It's easy to see how this whole thing could be misunderstood. Anyhow, a quick read of the texts show that all these people want is to be resurrected. Jesus is the prototype on how to achieve that. You can point to the story and say "See? This guy did it and so can you. All you have to do is BELIEVE. And you don't even have to believe as much as he does to get the resurrection. Just a little will do."

 

Slowed down energy?

 

This is why Elijah was seen by the 3 on the mount of transfiguration. God was about to unveil a new covenant. They also didn't understand that it was already given who would be on His right hand and His left when they asked Him. Moses/Word and Elijah/Spirit = bread and wine = true communion. Everything in there has hidden depths that the mainstream church has not delved into, thus it is written it is the glory of God to conceal a matter, but the honor of kings to uncover it.

You do a lot of "reading in" don't you? John the Baptist was secretly "Elijah" too. Then he was beheaded just in time for your little spiritual mountain meeting. Notice Peter wants to build little tents/booths to worship them while they were up there. Since the story can be boiled down to a calendar of festivals this would be...go ahead and guess since I gave it away already...the Festival of Booths. Jesus was also using this opportunity to say "Look at me! I'm just as good as Moses and Elijah. The two supreme prophets of all time in our religion. It doesn't get much better than that. I must be really important. <wink wink>"

 

mwc

[Grandpa Harley]

God said in Isaiah, line upon line, precept upon precept.........that's how He teaches and why the NT says that ye need not that ANY MAN should teach you (kinda destroys the whole of Babylon doesn't it?), but that the SPIRIT shall teach you and bring all things to your remembrance.........

 

See, what He wants us to remember is who we were when we were one with Him from the foundation of the world. That's why it says our identity (means nature of the Spirit within) is HID IN CHRIST, and Col. says, Christ IN YOU, is the hope of glory, and Romans 8 talks about the glory of God which shall be REVEALED IN US. The book of Revelation (not RevelationS, as we were told) tells us in the first line of the first chapter what it is about. The revelation of Jesus Christ. Christ is a Spirit. Revelation there is a word that means to uncover, unveil, manifest and John states it ALL happens in the temple. Know ye not ye are the temple of the living God?

 

Religion sold us a bill of goods that was tainted with the death of the carnal minds of men; there was no life of the Spirit in it, so it brought forth out of the seed that was planted........more death and condemnation, for only understanding the law/letter/line upon line and ministering out of it brings death. The law/letter/line upon line of understanding, ministers death to the hearer. That's why I said it KILLS. Yet Romans 8 says there is NOW NO CONDEMNATION to those who are in Christ Jesus.

 

Riiiiight... so we're talking high class gibberish... I'd give the crack pipe a rest...

[Toaster]

Well, since it says that all the things that happened in the OT to the Israelites (and to all for that matter) were for our example, I don't know.......you tell me.......have you looked up the names involved?

 

All the names in there mean something to us that are the heirs of salvation. Or do you really think that it was just a coincidence that Noah's name means rest (the ark raised them up above the destruction of the flesh = ceasing from their own works, Christ is the new ark of the covenant which is why we are told to put on/enter into Christ) .

 

And then, Moses's name means deliverer (he delivered the people from Egypt a type of the flesh of man), Judah means praise (He inhabits the praises of His people, His name shall be a praise in all the earth, Christ IS His name/nature).

 

Israel means prince of God, nature changed from Jacob, which means heel-catcher (the soul tries to catch the heel of the spirit trying to ascend in us all).

 

Joseph means to add another, the another added was Benjamin, who means son of my right hand, and so on and so on.

 

And not only people names. In the place where they stoned the man with stones for picking up sticks on the Sabbath day. When you search it out, the stones are the Word of which He is the chief cornerstone, the sticks are the carnal nature of man which is as wood for the fire, and on this the Sabbath day (if you have entered into His rest) if we see anyone adding to their carnal natures we are to "stone them" with stones........only these stones have already been struck by the authority of God that the true nature/revelation of the Spirit might flow out.

 

The whole book is SPIRIT, written to our spirit, for the understanding to return to our spirit.

[mwc]

God said in Isaiah, line upon line, precept upon precept.........that's how He teaches and why the NT says that ye need not that ANY MAN should teach you (kinda destroys the whole of Babylon doesn't it?), but that the SPIRIT shall teach you and bring all things to your remembrance.........

Again, what makes YOUR interpretation correct?

 

What you are doing is called pesher (it's like midrash).

 

The book of Revelation (not RevelationS, as we were told) tells us in the first line of the first chapter what it is about. The revelation of Jesus Christ. Christ is a Spirit. Revelation there is a word that means to uncover, unveil, manifest and John states it ALL happens in the temple. Know ye not ye are the temple of the living God?

The Apocalypse of John (not ApocalypeS) tells us lots of things. First and foremost it is a Jewish text that has been xianized. Most everything is about the fall of the city of Jerusalem by the Romans a long time ago. It's all said and done. Here's your opening line:

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave him so that his servants might have knowledge of the things which will quickly take place: and he sent and made it clear by his angel to his servant John; 2 Who gave witness of the word of God, and of the witness of Jesus Christ, even of all the things which he saw.

And no matter how you translate it, it always comes off awkwardly. It almost always comes off as the revelation that Jesus Christ had (insert crap about John) and more stuff about the witness of Jesus and stuff he saw. This almost appears that it was supposed to be a first person witness BY Jesus before the edits. Again...I'm using the translation here but it doesn't matter what text you use...use the Greek for all I care...it reads better sans John.

 

mwc

[Grandpa Harley]

And there was me thinking that it was just bad writing... and Moshe means 'Boss' as well as a few other meanings.

 

So, why are you hear throwing out the shit you've made up while stealing other in-patient's medications

[Toaster]

"Riiiiight... so we're talking high class gibberish... I'd give the crack pipe a rest..."

 

Well, since this is EX- Christian site, I assume I'm speaking to one who knows the scriptures, and my "gibberish" should sound familiar to you, since it's all in there.......

[Toaster]

" And there was me thinking that it was just bad writing... and Moshe means 'Boss' as well as a few other meanings.

 

So, why are you hear throwing out the shit you've made up while stealing other in-patient's medications"

 

Good one.......but I haven't made up any of it. You give me far too much credit........

 

 

"What you are doing is called pesher (it's like midrash)."

 

Thank you. I consider that a compliment and a referral back to my roots

[Grandpa Harley]

"Riiiiight... so we're talking high class gibberish... I'd give the crack pipe a rest..."

 

Well, since this is EX- Christian site, I assume I'm speaking to one who knows the scriptures, and my "gibberish" should sound familiar to you, since it's all in there.......

 

So, you admit your gibberish doesn't even have the redeeming feature of being original gibberish...