Five Questions That Christians Can't Answer

[Grandpa Harley]

Nevermind, just not used to such language and agression. I guess I spend too much time with Christians. Carry on.

No, I want to know, I do mind. Because I want to see if the language was misguided or if it was warranted or if you just threw that out there to satisfy your own opinions? Did you say it only to vilify us to justify your wish for us to be "evil" or did you really have a case? Maybe you just misunderstood, but then maybe you should give the other party a chance to explain? But after all, maybe that's not what you want...

 

The reason why the language might be different on this website is because the people you have here aren't allowed to participate in the "nice" Christian websites. Welcome to the Underworld. If you don't fit in, well then why did you walk through the door?

 

Maybe you should learn that the world does NOT circle around you and your wishes. The World is NOT made to fit your needs. If you come here and want us to behave according to your demands, then you'll be kicked out faster than you can say Kratos. Capice?

[mwc]

I am sorry if my idea of polite conversation is different than yours. I work every day with the public and with strangers asking questions. I would get fired the first day for communicating as you do here. It seems that some have a hatred of religion and Christianity and think that this makes the need for common courtesy not an issue. I just wonder if you talk this way to strangers that you meet on the street or in your chosen professions? If so, then I am the one who is wrong and I just live among different citizens of the world.

Many, if not most, of my jobs involved some level of customer service. I've worked on the telephones and I've gone into their homes/businesses. I understand what customer service is all about. I excel at providing customer service.

 

You are not my customer. Just as you were confused about how I was somehow going to give you a demonstration of "love" you seem to be confused about this as well. I am not here to set any examples or give any demonstrations. I am not a showcase of morals or lack thereof. Do not expect me to be such a thing and I think your "confusion" will subside.

 

Indeed some do have a hatred of religion and xianity in particular. The fact that this website is "ex-christian.net" should have been your very first clue. The degree of "hatred" will vary for each person (from none to extreme) and you should not expect "courtesy" above and beyond what you have already received. Many "christians" treat us as trash both here and in real life so any "courtesy" is earned not simply offered upon first meeting. It might seem backward to you but "fool me once..." We have learned this lesson the hard way and won't be making the same mistake again. It's up to you if you wish to continue here.

 

Yes, we treat everyone this way. We kick puppies and kill babies. We are the social misfits that you fear and we like it that way. Of course you'll pay special attention to that last part because it kind of plays into the mental picture you already have about us in the first place. Fact is you would never pick any of us out of a crowd of our "peers." We're just like you and we might just be standing in-line next to you at the store or sitting next to you at the restaurant. We might be against the war in Iraq or maybe we're for it. We're just as "nice" or "mean" as everyone else. The only difference is we're not for the "god(s)" of the bible. That sets us apart. We've come to the conclusion he's false.

 

So get down off of your high horse and acting like you actually know who we are and what we're all about. You're the one that has pre-judged us...and you're wrong.

 

I have no problem answering any questions, but if you are offended by anyone calling themselves a Christian out of the gate, what is the purpose of this section of the forum?

Where did I take offense? I have questioned your interpretation(s) and asked you how you know they are correct (I'd have to check my exact wording). Just because you are a self-proclaimed xian doesn't mean I am simply going to concede all points automatically. I spent over 30 years as a xian so I happen to have gathered a little of that "god" given understanding myself.

 

The forum rules are right at the top of the page under "Lion's Den Rules."

 

mwc

[Grandpa Harley]

I'm happy to pander to his stereotype...

[Kratos]

You are all as guilty of stereotyping me as you claim I am of you. You have no idea of what I think of non-Christians or of how I treat them. The truth is that I treat all men and women with mutual respect until they prove that they do not deserve such respect. I am, also, far from a pansy and this is so easy to say hiding behind a computer screen. Such behavior shows extreme cowardace. A real man never demeans another unless they are standing in front of them so they can bear the consequences of their words. Typical cyber bullies who act tough while typing in the safety of their living room, but would probably never look you in the eye in person.

 

I only know by what I read. MCW seems to be a gentlemen, but was just the first to answer. For that, I am sorry.

[Japedo]

I am sorry if my idea of polite conversation is different than yours. I work every day with the public and with strangers asking questions. I would get fired the first day for communicating as you do here. It seems that some have a hatred of religion and Christianity and think that this makes the need for common courtesy not an issue. I just wonder if you talk this way to strangers that you meet on the street or in your chosen professions? If so, then I am the one who is wrong and I just live among different citizens of the world.

 

I have no problem answering any questions, but if you are offended by anyone calling themselves a Christian out of the gate, what is the purpose of this section of the forum?

 

Kratos

 

 

Dear Mr Kratos?

 

MWC was more then polite, you have failed yet again to state where he was rude to you. He simply asked you questions there was no hostilities, no condensing tones until you falsely accused him of doing so. You come to our safe haven and assume to make false and outlandish judgments against us as a group then when we don't bend down and kiss your ass you take offensive? Are you kidding me? This would be equivalent of walking into Yankee stadium wearing tons of Red Sox gear chanting YANKEES SUX and being shocked and offended you were booed and hissed at and had shit thrown at ya!

 

 

You have the banner of condescending assholeness about you with hand over fist assumptions. Then to top it off, You have falsely accused one of our fellow upstanding members here and are shocked you're being called out on the carpet for it? okay......? Apparently you think it's polite to falsely accuse people, come to their safe haven and make all kinds of wild bullshit assumptions as to why they are here and then pat yourself on the back that you have somehow Showed us! . Yeah, you're as polite an asshole as I've ever seen.

 

 

You don't actually know any of us of course, you just pulled propaganda out of your ass threw it on the wall, assume it true. You threw the shit here no one else. You think we're just angry at religion because we haven't found the true ™ one? I can tell you first hand that at the start of my plight to find god, the last of my intentions was to disprove him. I can also assure you that there was a day I believed as you do that godless people were all evil scary devil worshipers. Ignorance is bliss but it can be fixed with a little education. Either apologize for being an asshat or be treated like the asshat you're being.

[Ouroboros]

I'm happy to pander to his stereotype...

Well, you're more than able... and more than willing too. Nothing can change Mr Croutons opinions, so go ahead. Show him what real ass-hattery looks like.

[Deva]

Mr Crouton

 

LOL Sometimes you just kill me, Hans!

[Ouroboros]

LOL Sometimes you just kill me, Hans!

Oh, I hope not. I don't want to have your life on my conscience... Imagine God's judgment based on "murder by humour". I'm sure that's the only valid reason why he would send someone to Hell...

[white_raven23]

I think Kratos is just used to his christianity being tolerated and respected right out the gate wherever he is. He's not used to having his beliefs questioned, so he interprets the emotional fight or flight response of it as having to come from "somewhere" and so he perceived aggression where none was present.

 

Bit impetuous, posting an accusatory response while still feeling the emotional shock of being questioned in the first place.

 

I will wait to see how much true self he has as opposed to parrotting rhetoric. We shall see.

[mwc]

You are all as guilty of stereotyping me as you claim I am of you. You have no idea of what I think of non-Christians or of how I treat them. The truth is that I treat all men and women with mutual respect until they prove that they do not deserve such respect. I am, also, far from a pansy and this is so easy to say hiding behind a computer screen. Such behavior shows extreme cowardace. A real man never demeans another unless they are standing in front of them so they can bear the consequences of their words. Typical cyber bullies who act tough while typing in the safety of their living room, but would probably never look you in the eye in person.

Alright...let's try a different approach...

 

"You don't like us and we don't like you."

 

I imagine it's still inaccurate but there's no point in kicking this dead horse. People here are just that...people. Individuals. This isn't a collective with shared thoughts. So get over the fact that not everyone is using the same language (good, bad or otherwise) or treating you "in kind" (or what you perceive to be "in kind"). It simply is not going to happen. What I can practically guaranty will happen is the more you try to force this issue the more everyone will turn against you.

 

I'm afraid I cannot help you with your insecurities but I don't think anyone here cares whether or not you are, or aren't, a pansy. Personally, I do not.

 

I only know by what I read. MCW seems to be a gentlemen, but was just the first to answer. For that, I am sorry.

I am far from a gentleman. I happened to be in a patient mood and wanted to hear if what you had to say was something different than our "regular" visitor but that patience is wearing rather thin.

 

mwc

[Grandpa Harley]

You are all as guilty of stereotyping me as you claim I am of you. You have no idea of what I think of non-Christians or of how I treat them. The truth is that I treat all men and women with mutual respect until they prove that they do not deserve such respect. I am, also, far from a pansy and this is so easy to say hiding behind a computer screen. Such behavior shows extreme cowardace. A real man never demeans another unless they are standing in front of them so they can bear the consequences of their words. Typical cyber bullies who act tough while typing in the safety of their living room, but would probably never look you in the eye in person.

 

I only know by what I read. MCW seems to be a gentlemen, but was just the first to answer. For that, I am sorry.

 

Well, you turn up to a board called 'Ex-Chrisitans' as a Christian, spread crazy and expect to be 'respected'... a fie on thee. As to demeaning you by proxy, since this is the internet, it's the best I can do, unless I chose to hunt you down... and what 'consequences' Christian? I am expected to be impressed by 'real men'?

 

 

Go spread crazy where people give the steam of shit about your thoughts...

[Grandpa Harley]

MWC,

 

I am far from a gentleman.

 

Abject and filthy lie! You are, sir, one of nature's gentlemen. A repository of sage council and ready wit... and I love you in numerous sordid ways...

 

Gramps xxx

[mwc]

MWC,

 

I am far from a gentleman.

 

Abject and filthy lie! You are, sir, one of nature's gentlemen. A repository of sage council and ready wit... and I love you in numerous sordid ways...

 

Gramps xxx

Oh my. All the more reason for me to plan a trip across the pond.

 

mwc

[Grandpa Harley]

You know, I call it as I see it!

[Toaster]

Testing.........

[Grandpa Harley]

You are, very...

[Guest RevDDM]

I tend to find that people who make loud, Ex-Cathedra comments about what sort of hell the world would be without Christ are usually using the religion as a reason not to become a serial killer

 

Isn't that a little prejudiced? I have no desire to become a serial killer, and I believe that.

 

Without Jesus, what's to stop you? You said there are no 'morals' without him. Thus the morality of God must be preventing you doing something, otherwise you'd not make claims like that... so... what is it? Rape? Murder? Heady admixture of the two? Profligate sex with other's wives? Other's husbands? Maybe children? Perhaps drugs. Drink. Gambling... Jesus stops you from being bad, so I'm happy you believe in him. Otherwise, the assertion that there are no morals without Jesus is empty... if you wouldn't do it if Jesus was a myth, then you're just 'moral' in the sense that Hippocrates was 'moral' - First, do no harm!

 

 

Seems to me that I was being starkly realistic about the rattlesnakes who follow the Demon God of the Bible for Brownie points in the 'after life'... and trying to sell their venom to ex-addicts...

 

Since you seem so interested in my own sins, rather than yours, I'll give you an example...

 

Without Jesus in my life, I would still be a slave to occult practices. It is a well-known fact that such practices can severely damage one's psychological health. That is a bad thing. So, Jesus helps me to resist such dangerous, impractical, and immoral practices.

 

Of course, there are other sins to which I would easily fall prey, were it not for the saving power of Christ Jesus. That was just one example.

 

The problem is that, if you try to live a good life without Him, you end up even worse than you would be giving in to sin without Christ. When you get saved, you no longer want to sin, because you realize that it is the wrong thing to do and it causes more harm than good. When you try to live morally without Jesus, you no longer sin because you are merely embarrassed, and don't want to get caught in your own mess.

 

-R.D.-

[Guest RevDDM]

Also, like properly using any gift, properly applying free will can be a beautiful thing, and God loves that.

 

The reprecussion for abusing that gift is to be sent to Hell.

-Rev-

 

It is not free and it sure is not a "gift" under the above circumstances you describe. You don't seem to understand that.

 

It is free. You are free to do whatever you want. Does that mean that God should let the world suffer if you make the wrong decision, and not show you why what you did was wrong? What kind of just God would allow that? If nobody had to pay for the bad things that they did, how would they understand the damage they were doing? Would we expect a judge to let rapists, child molesters and murderers go free, just because he says he's merciful? Free will is free. The repercussions for your actions are also free. In that way, we learn. If your parents hadn't told you to not touch a hot stove, you'd touch it. If you couldn't feel your hand burning, and it instantly healed, you would never learn, because you would have nothing to fear.

 

-R.D.-

[Deva]

Also, like properly using any gift, properly applying free will can be a beautiful thing, and God loves that.

 

The reprecussion for abusing that gift is to be sent to Hell.

-Rev-

 

It is not free and it sure is not a "gift" under the above circumstances you describe. You don't seem to understand that.

 

It is free. You are free to do whatever you want. Does that mean that God should let the world suffer if you make the wrong decision, and not show you why what you did was wrong? What kind of just God would allow that? If nobody had to pay for the bad things that they did, how would they understand the damage they were doing? Would we expect a judge to let rapists, child molesters and murderers go free, just because he says he's merciful? Free will is free. The repercussions for your actions are also free. In that way, we learn. If your parents hadn't told you to not touch a hot stove, you'd touch it. If you couldn't feel your hand burning, and it instantly healed, you would never learn, because you would have nothing to fear.

 

-R.D.-

 

Well, Rev, as promised, you are back. You can't "do whatever you want". Your choices are always limited by the circumstances and your past conditioning. God says you accept me or the consequence is you go to hell. How is that a free choice? If someone held a gun to your head and said "get into this car or I'll blow your head off," I would say your choices are limited wouldn't you? You aren't free to make up another one, such as "I will just fly off like a bird at supersonic speed and escape."

 

You say: "Free Will is Free" - nonsense. Will is conditioned. The repercussions for your actions can also never be "free". They are determined by cultural factors, the laws of the country, and scientific facts and laws such as the existence of gravity, etc., among other things. Yes, you learn from your experiences, but that doesn't make them "free".

 

 

Now, please explain your sentence from many posts ago:

 

Every action has an equal, or greater, and opposite re-action. We choose what we do, and the reaction happens naturally.

 

How does God factor into this?

[Deva]

The problem is that, if you try to live a good life without Him, you end up even worse than you would be giving in to sin without Christ. When you get saved, you no longer want to sin, because you realize that it is the wrong thing to do and it causes more harm than good. When you try to live morally without Jesus, you no longer sin because you are merely embarrassed, and don't want to get caught in your own mess.

 

-R.D.-

 

Sorry Gramps, I just must jump in on this one. As an unbeliever, the above is so insulting to me personally and all of us here who are ex-christians, that it is absolutely infuriating. Rev, this is wrong on so many levels. Among other things, how can you possibly presume to mind read and tell us all what motivates us? Are you serious that you think people who get "saved" no longer want to sin? Without Jesus we are "Merely embarrassed and don't want to get caught?" Are you crazy?

[Guest RevDDM]

"How do you know these intricate details about what happened in Heaven before the world was created? Let me ask you the question I get sometimes about the Big Bang: were you there?"

 

They were reveald to us, through inspiration, by God Himself. If we go from there, we can probably prove them. It's true that it's a hypothesis, but isn't that how scientific discoveries start?

Who is "us"? Did these revelations come to you personally without the interference of other peoples opinions and influence, or did you get all your information and belief from other people? I guess 99.99% of what you believe comes from other peoples interpretations of the Bible and outside sources, and not your own belief. You were molded into your faith, but the instrument of other people. Brainwashed is another word.

 

Prove them, how? The problem is that people have been trying to prove God for thousands of years, and they have tried to prove Jesus too, but it vain. In just a few hundre years science has been able to prove 90% of what it claims. Do Christianity have the same success rate? No, I don't think so. It fails miserable to prove each and every key point of its belief. Belief is based on things you can't see or prove, and so it will stay.

 

"It's a pseudo-philosophical argument many apologists use to prove that God must exist."

 

I figured that... Even so, it still eludes me. If you can, please provide an example of it.

The "perfect tuned universe" argument is based on the notion that the universe is "perfectly tuned", and hence it must be designed, and it also claims that this is the only way a universe can be "tuned" or organized, otherwise it wouldn't be "perfect". So is heaven also perfectly tuned the same way or is it "perfectly tuned" a different way? If it is different, then the "tuning" of our universe isn't the only possible version, but it can be done other ways, then the argument for design fails since there can be other versions. Do you follow?

 

"Then it is good to die?"

 

It's not good to die; however, if you've properly prepared yourself, it's not something to be feared.

When I was Christian I feared I had some unforgiven sins in my life and God would possibly deny entry into Heaven.

 

Now when I'm atheist, I've come to terms and harmony with death. I'm even willing to die if I have to.

 

Have you to terms with it, and are you willing to die for your loved ones?

 

"That 'self-evident' argument isn't so obvious to me. And even if it was, why does that prove YHWH+Jesus+HolySpirit (3 gods in 1 god? What is self-evident to say that Jesus magically made the world with his pinky will singing twinkle-twinkle-little-star? It's just stories. No evidence."

 

LOL In any case, the evidence can be found in the strategic structuring of the smallest materials known to humankind. On any scale, a clear and concise structure can be found... even on a macrocosmic one. Scientists, for example, found a "blank spot" in space. If this universe were created at random, how do you explain that scientists have yet to find any other such spot? (I'm not talking about black holes, here. They found a spot where no gravitational field, nor even dark matter, could be found.)

I have never heard about that "blank spot". Can you provide a link or a reference please?

 

"So did God create the bacteria and the virus before the fall, or after the fall, or did Satan create them? (Because I can't find where you answered that question earlier)"

 

Unfortunately, I didn't have time to earlier. God did create them; however, before Satan caused God's order in Creation to be marred forever, they were harmless. They had no predisposition to change their environment upon entering a host. When they did enter a host, it was a symbiotic relationship, but it was a harmless one: the invader would most likely only feed on a small portion of nutrients from the digested food, rather than the host itself. If it were the other way around, then surely the e.coli in our bodies would be responsible for our destruction. It seems that certain strains of viri and bacteria have not changed so much as to become harmful. I propose that some other function might have changed about them; for instance, maybe certain strains can no longer exist outside of certain environments; whereas, before, they could easily survive outside their host.

I'm sorry but I have to roll on the floor!!!

 

Virus and bacteria harmless. It's like saying "before the fall no one ate food". Bacteria and virus can't be the way they are without doing what they do. A virus is a sing DNA strain with very simplistic functions. You can't make that string of code do something else and still be a virus. And if they were harmless as you said, then their DNA encoding MUST HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT! Which means that the DNA encoding CHANGED after the fall. Who change it and how? (A change in the DNA must only mean Evolution)

 

"Who is "us"? Did these revelations come to you personally without the interference of other peoples opinions and influence, or did you get all your information and belief from other people? I guess 99.99% of what you believe comes from other peoples interpretations of the Bible and outside sources, and not your own belief. You were molded into your faith, but the instrument of other people. Brainwashed is another word."

 

I studied the Bible, and I studied all kinds of other beliefs. Other peoples' discoveries have proven useful, but I make my own conclusions based on them. How do you know that you weren't brainwashed by being taught repeatedly, throughout your natural life, that there can't be a god, and that evolution is truer than creation? I make my own hypotheses. I test them by the discoveries of others. I confirm them with logic. When I have ensured, to my satisfaction, that I have come to the only logical conclusion, I accept that as truth.

 

"Prove them, how? The problem is that people have been trying to prove God for thousands of years, and they have tried to prove Jesus too, but it vain. In just a few hundre years science has been able to prove 90% of what it claims. Do Christianity have the same success rate? No, I don't think so. It fails miserable to prove each and every key point of its belief. Belief is based on things you can't see or prove, and so it will stay."

 

In the Julio-Claudian histories, there is a foot-note about how the Roman emperor sent judges to investigate claims that a man called "Jesus of Nazareth" was stirring up trouble in his kingdom, by claiming to be the messiah. They went to investigate; only to learn that the records showed that Jesus of Nazareth had been executed by crucifixion eleven years before these complaints were investigated. That is just one of many evidences that Jesus Christ existed. Furthermore, though we know where His tomb is, His body is not there; nor is there any evidence that it was stolen. The stone that was set over the tomb would have taken twenty men to move, and yet only Jesus' twelve apostles - and the three Marys, - were the only ones who knew where He was buried by Joseph of Arimathea. Furthermore, the testimonies of the guards were that two men had appeared; and, at the moving of the boulder by these two individuals, and the body of Jesus walking out of the tomb, the guards fainted. Why can't you see how the evidence adds up?

 

"When I was Christian I feared I had some unforgiven sins in my life and God would possibly deny entry into Heaven.

 

Now when I'm atheist, I've come to terms and harmony with death. I'm even willing to die if I have to.

 

Have you to terms with it, and are you willing to die for your loved ones?"

 

When you were a Christian, and asked forgiveness for the sins you committed, God automatically forgave them (as long as you were sincere, and prayed for that forgiveness in Jesus' name). I don't understand how you could believe that any sin was left unforgiven. Jesus died for you - for us all, - so, no matter how grave the sin, the truly repentant could be forgiven of anything (short of blaspheming the Holy Ghost). I am sorry for your doubt, but you must understand that, when you make Jesus your Lord and Savior, and you ask for forgiveness because you really feel bad about what you've done and it's effects, God will forgive you, no matter what.

 

As for my life, I put it into Christ's hands. If my death would save the ones I love from danger, or spread Christ's ministry of peace on earth and good will to all mankind, then I am more than willing to die.

 

"I have never heard about that "blank spot". Can you provide a link or a reference please?"

 

Unfortunately, since it was so long ago, the only reference I can give you is that it was on Yahoo! News. I wish I had saved the article; as well as the one about God "proving" His own existence in a court of law (though I am still unsure about whether or not I actually believe that one).

 

"Virus and bacteria harmless. It's like saying "before the fall no one ate food"."

 

I don't see how the two correlate. It is made clear that, before the Fall, every living creature ate some kind of food; because, unlike plants, they couldn't make their own. However, the Bible does also indicate that viruses and bacteria were originally harmless symbiotes: feeding not on the host, but on excess nutrients and waste products in the host. Case in point: we all have a strain of E.Coli in our digestive systems, which helps us break down meat and certain other foods. This E.Coli strain has been carefully studied, and found to be more simple in it's structure than the more harmful strains of E.Coli that exist outside our bodies.

 

"Bacteria and virus can't be the way they are without doing what they do. A virus is a single DNA strain with very simplistic functions."

 

True enough, unless it is a retrovirus; in which case, it is a cellular structure which only has R.N.A., rather than D.N.A.

 

"You can't make that string of code do something else, and still be a virus.

 

You're losing me, here. It's obvious that you can change a virus, so that it serves another function. That's the basis of biological warfare: controlling, and manipulating, viruses and bacteria.

 

"And if they were harmless as you said, then their DNA encoding MUST HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT! Which means that the DNA encoding CHANGED after the fall. Who change it and how? (A change in the DNA must only mean Evolution)"

 

Again, I must point out the folly in your argument. Their D.N.A. was much simpler, until after the Fall. Soon afterward, they mutated into more complicated functions... however, since their species didn't change, they did not evolve. With your question of "Who change it and how?", I feel that you are starting to understand. Obviously, God changed it. Part of the curse that was put on Cain was that he could not do the normal work that other men could; indicating physical illnesses. The up-side, however, was a promise of revenge: God put a mark on Cain, which signified that anyone that took his life would suffer seven times worse than he would apparently suffer. If degenerative diseases were the cause of Cain's people - quite possibly the neanderthals, - being unable to do the hard work that the children of Seth - most likely the cro-magnons, - could do, then it follows that, upon death, some harbinger of disease could pass to the murderer, and the person who murdered Cain would suffer a series of symptoms seven times worse than Cain's. Hence, the viruses and bacteria living in and on Cain would have to become malignant; however, since Cain was the original carrier, and they were thus developed to survive within him, they would have been less obtrusive in him than in another person, whose body was not quite the same.

 

-R.D.-

[Spoomonkey]

It is free.

 

It is conditional.

 

Free means that it requires nothing of me - conditional means that it does. Do you really believe that a trip to a time share resort is free? Or do you understand that you will be required to sit through a presentation, endure high-pressure sales tactics and possibly be responsible for certain tax implications? If you consider a time-share vacation to be free then you may have justification for your confusion about god's "free gift". Otherwise, you are just being purposefully obtuse.

 

Spoomonkey

[Guest RevDDM]

Free will doesn' have more power than God; Free will is one of God's many gifts to us.

 

Yeah, sure Rev, some gift if using it gets us sent to hell.

You just don't get it, Rev. You are just not "free" to do whatever. There are a million antecedent reasons why people chose to do a particular thing, influences, the nervous system of that particular person, I could go on and on.

 

You still don't understand what I am saying.

 

Free will is a gift...

 

Like any gift, free will can be abused...

 

Like any abuse of a free gift, abusing free will has reprecussions.

 

Also, like properly using any gift, properly applying free will can be a beautiful thing, and God loves that.

 

The reprecussion for abusing that gift is to be sent to Hell.

 

The reward for properly using that gift is being sent to Heaven... provided you're innocent of having EVER abused that gift.

 

There are some things that are out of our hands... However, the majority of our lives are ours to do with as we see fit.

 

I am reminded of my dearly-departed friend. He was bound to a wheelchair for life, and had lived to the age of fourteen years (the doctors said he'd die by the time he was eight). He, for the most part, used his free will for good things: exercising his upper body, enjoying life, doing good for others, etc. There were times when he made mistakes by his free will; but, if he didn't know better, then he couldn't be held accountable for them. The problem was that the Catholic church taught him their standards, and he was constantly guilty by them. I shared with him what Christianity is really about, and how to have his guilt erased forever. Though I don't know for certain if he recieved Christ's gift before he died, I have hope that he did... at some point.

 

So you see, his illness was beyond his control, but it gave him a stronger sense of morality... which, if he did make it to heaven, means a lot up there, according to the Bible.

 

-Rev-

 

I think most of us here speak English as a first language... it's just that you're talking circular nonsense that can only pass muster if you're brainwashed, running away from 'something' (see my 'morality' post), or you're a moron.

 

Perhaps... or perhaps, in trying to lead me into a corner, so to speak, in our discussions, I have come back to the same conclusions each time; in which case, I have answered all of your questions, and there is still some problem that keeps you from understanding the answers: a prevalent problem, common to many of those who don't believe in God, or understand the Bible...

 

not to say that everyone on this board has that same problem...

 

-R.D.-

[Guest RevDDM]

If you painted a picture, and it was hung in a world-famous art gallery, would you want to remain anonymous? I know I wouldn't.

 

I wouldn't mind being anonymous. I would still have the satisfaction of having done something that others found to be worthwhile. In 1,000 years my name on a picture would not mean anything anyway. Haven't you ever heard of doing something just for the pleasure of doing it? That you need appreciation for creating something of value and beauty shows your character.

 

Still, don't you feel like you've made a difference if people appreciate, and understand, your art?

 

And, if someone were to take lessons from one of your critics on how to design more art according to your style, would you not rather lead them to the one that designed that style in the first place - you, - to learn how, and why, it's really done?

 

-R.D.-

[Deva]

If you painted a picture, and it was hung in a world-famous art gallery, would you want to remain anonymous? I know I wouldn't.

 

I wouldn't mind being anonymous. I would still have the satisfaction of having done something that others found to be worthwhile. In 1,000 years my name on a picture would not mean anything anyway. Haven't you ever heard of doing something just for the pleasure of doing it? That you need appreciation for creating something of value and beauty shows your character.

 

Still, don't you feel like you've made a difference if people appreciate, and understand, your art?

 

And, if someone were to take lessons from one of your critics on how to design more art according to your style, would you not rather lead them to the one that designed that style in the first place - you, - to learn how, and why, it's really done?

 

-R.D.-

 

I would feel a sense of accomplishment, yes. As far as "making a difference?" How do you mean? We all, being a part of this universe in a certain sense make a difference regardless of our accomplishments. Very very few human beings have individually made any real impact on the society at large or are known in history centuries later. My expectation would not be that high.

 

Anyway, whether or not I feel satisfaction or make a difference was not the point of your little illustration, as I recall. You were trying to draw a false analogy between and artist and his work and god and his creation. It didn't wash then and it still doesn't now.