Japedo Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Maybe you just haven't been asking the right Christians......... If you have answers, we're waiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 This might be a good topic to pin. Every Christian I have ever posed these questions to has never been able to give me a straight answer: 1) Which one better describes an all-loving God: a.) One that gives human beings one chance only to get it right and if you don't condemns you to an eternal hell, or b.) One that allows you multiple chances to get it right so that you can spend eternity in the best place possible? Can I add a c, a God that if we cant do something ourselves that pleases Him, He does it for us and puts it to our account 2) People who speak of "hell" associate it with divine punishment, but punishment is usually used as a corrective measure. How do people suffering in an eternal hell learn their lesson? Doesn't that make hell mere torture with absolutely no point to it? Yes! I agree, there is no such thing as eternal torment or punishment for the sake of punishment. God is in the buisness of healing, making whole to me. 3) There are thousands of different denominations in Christianity, each thinking they have it right. All other religions think that they have it right, as well. How can you be sure that you have it right, when the odds are that you are actually wrong? I know better than anyone that I have been wrong more times then I could count. The one thing I am sure of is that God loves His creation, all of His creation. I only know this by a supernatural knowing thru relationship with God so I cannot prove this to anyone but would encourage everyone to seek if it is so. 4) Where in the Bible does Jesus say that people must worship him or pray to him? Doesn't he identify himself as the "Son of Man" who was sent by the Father? Jesus says to pray to the Father but also said if we ask anything in his name.......that is where that comes from 5) Jesus himself and his disciples seem to believe in reincarnation, as evidenced in Matthew 11:10-15, Matthew 17:10-13 and John 9:1-2. Why is the word of Paul in Hebrews 9:27 taken over Jesus in Christian doctrine? actually Im up in the air over reincarnation. I really have searched it out but get no real strong leading in either direction so I just wait and seek. ok there is another christians view for ya, not your average christian by any means sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Maybe you just haven't been asking the right Christians......... Maybe. Are the "right" xians included in the set of "any/all xians on the planet/elsewhere, or supernatural force(s), willing to answer the question(s)?" mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 "If xians are "born again" does that make ex-c's jesus' abortions?" No, actually it makes them stillborn.......they never made it out of the "mother's womb".......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 ]"Maybe. Are the "right" xians included in the set of "any/all xians on the planet/elsewhere, or supernatural force(s), willing to answer the question(s)?" Love to.......when I get the time......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 "If xians are "born again" does that make ex-c's jesus' abortions?" No, actually it makes them stillborn.......they never made it out of the "mother's womb".......... Look everyone more Christian love . What's your purpose in coming here Toaster? If you don't have time to answer the questions, then don't bother to respond in the first place. Please spare the victims of your cult your Christian love (aka Abuse!). Replies such as the one quoted above, show your fruit as rotten you hateful asshole, much like the god you follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 "If xians are "born again" does that make ex-c's jesus' abortions?" No, actually it makes them stillborn.......they never made it out of the "mother's womb".......... I dont think so, in fact I find that stmt rather ridiculous. I think most that are ex-christians simply dont fall for the garbage that is passed off as truth by most of christianity. Maybe they think, and believe it or not, perhaps God has pulled the blinders off and they actually see much more than then those that are trying so hard to enlighten them. I dont know but Id be willing to bet that you would find Jesus hanging out on this forum much more readily than your average christian fundamentalist forum sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Great. Another fucking troll... [sarcastic voice "when I get the time........."[/sarcastic voice] Like it's going to be worth waiting for... my entire, whiter than alabaster, English, ARSE... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 "If xians are "born again" does that make ex-c's jesus' abortions?" No, actually it makes them stillborn.......they never made it out of the "mother's womb".......... Look everyone more Christian love . What's your purpose in coming here Toaster? If you don't have time to answer the questions, then don't bother to respond in the first place. Please spare the victims of your cult your Christian love (aka Abuse!). Replies such as the one quoted above, show your fruit as rotten you hateful asshole, much like the god you follow. Jap, it's trite, contrived, vacuous, and too designed to offend to actually achieve 'offensive'. I'd ignore the silly little creature, since it clearly has nothing outside single figure IQs would care to buy... To the poster, toaster, (BWAH-HA-HHAH-HA-HA-H. yeah, right) Go peddle crazy somewhere else. We're all stocked up here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Thank you for your warm welcome, LOL. Actually, it was midnight here and I have classes to go to this morning, but I will reply later in the day. Toaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Jap, it's trite, contrived, vacuous, and too designed to offend to actually achieve 'offensive'. I'd ignore the silly little creature, since it clearly has nothing outside single figure IQs would care to buy... You're right Gramps, looking at it again it does look designed to offend. I guess I should not be surprised as I already know what a hateful bunch the fundytards are. Why do Idiots bother to take the time to sign up here, only to make a post to tell us they are to busy to post? That is in between their Christian love they decide to shit all over the floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 "If xians are "born again" does that make ex-c's jesus' abortions?" No, actually it makes them stillborn.......they never made it out of the "mother's womb".......... The thing is we were "born again." I really should change it say we were part of jesus' murder/suicide pact or something to effect but "abortions" is just is just that much more fun...don't you think? mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Thank you for your warm welcome, LOL. Actually, it was midnight here and I have classes to go to this morning, but I will reply later in the day. Toaster You let us know when the short bus gets you back home so you can tell us all about your friend in the sky, okay? mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Ok, now...... let's get to it........ 1) Which one better describes an all-loving God: a.) One that gives human beings one chance only to get it right and if you don't condemns you to an eternal hell, or b.) One that allows you multiple chances to get it right so that you can spend eternity in the best place possible? By your reasoning, B would, but neither is correct. Hell means "separation from God", and there are many walking the face of the earth that are separated from God NOW. No need to go to another "place". That's why the scripture states we are only separated from Him in our MINDS. I won't bore you with details but there are many that have done the studies on the original languages and found that this doctrine was added later and misunderstood, which is why Paul, who wrote most of the NT never managed to devote much to it. 2) People who speak of "hell" associate it with divine punishment, but punishment is usually used as a corrective measure. How do people suffering in an eternal hell learn their lesson? Doesn't that make hell mere torture with absolutely no point to it? Yes, it does. And it goes back to erroneous teaching added around the 3rd century. 3) There are thousands of different denominations in Christianity, each thinking they have it right. All other religions think that they have it right, as well. How can you be sure that you have it right, when the odds are that you are actually wrong? Again, an excellent question, with a simple answer. If you put dirt, water and oil in a container, shake it up, and then let it settle, the dirt goes to the bottom, the water in the middle, and the oil stays on top. So it is with the Truth. The natural realm was created by God, ie. He lowered Himself into His creation. Therefore the creation "mirrors" some aspect of His Truth, as it can be no less than what He is. So if you understand that we were made in His image, taken from the dust of the earth (the dirt), have a human spirit (the water), and are given a portion of His Holy Spirit (the oil), then you can see that even the natural realm reflects His plan and purpose, for even the elements follow a prescribed pattern. Therefore, knowing one Truth allows you to see it's mirror image in the creation, because the creation is His witness. So by this same principle, then it is easy to see that ALL religions have a fragment of Truth in them, which is why He told Adam (insert your name here, we are all Adam, a many membered body) he could eat of all the trees in the "garden" BUT one. We are referred to as trees, all of us, and we all bear fruit, of one kind or another. Another example would be the natural colors; in the natural all colors come from the 3 primary colors of red, blue, and yellow. These are; red (the Son/blood), blue(the spirit/color of the heavens over us), and yellow(color of gold/representative of the higher nature of God the Father. All the heavens (this realm is a "heaven" too) declare His glory, ie. reveal His attributes/nature. 4) Where in the Bible does Jesus say that people must worship him or pray to him? Doesn't he identify himself as the "Son of Man" who was sent by the Father? Yes He does. He also said if you've seen me, you've seen the Father, and I and my Father are one. The problem came from them not realizing WHO it was that was speaking. He also said He only spoke what He heard His Father speak. So, for example, when He said, "I am the way, the Truth, and the life," they, and countless generations after them, thought that He was speaking of Jesus the flesh man. But the Son of God is SPIRIT, as all seeds produce after their own kind. If you plant corn, you don't get green beans. The Father is a Spirit, and His seed is a SPIRIT, enrobed in flesh. That is why it was said that He was tempted in all things as we are, because he was a flesh man, not diety. What was diety was within Him, and is within us all. Christ is Greek for Messiah, and it means anointed, or anointed ONE, and it was His title, not His name. The scripture states that God the Father was in Christ (the seed) reconciling ALL MEN unto Himself. The problem was that they didn't connect the scripture that states that He (Christ seed) is the light of ALL MEN that come into the world. So if He is in all men, and God is in Him/Christ, and God is reconciling all men unto Himself, then the true gospel (means good news) is just what the scripture states it is; the gospel is........the death, burial, and resurrection of CHRIST (the seed). Why is that good news? Because if the same Spirit which raised CHRIST from the dead dwells in you (and I've already established it/He does), then He shall also quicken YOUR mortal bodies. Quicken there, in the original language, means to speed up, or make alive. Being lowered into the bondage of corruption, "slowed down our spirits", if you will, so much so we identified with that state of sleep or "death" of the body, unable to perceive our spiritual origins. Even scientists bear this witness, as matter/natural realm is found to be slowed down energy (Spirit). 5) Jesus himself and his disciples seem to believe in reincarnation, as evidenced in Matthew 11:10-15, Matthew 17:10-13 and John 9:1-2. Why is the word of Paul in Hebrews 9:27 taken over Jesus in Christian doctrine? There again........another fragment with an element of Truth hidden within. The Jews knew that Elijah was to come in the fulfillment of all things. They were looking for him then, but not understanding that it was to be a SPIRITUAL revelation of Elijah and what he represents, which is the prophetic attributes of the Spirit of God. Any change with God is preceded by His sending of a prophet, because it states that, "surely the Lord our God will do NOTHING, except He first send His servants the prophets". This is why Elijah was seen by the 3 on the mount of transfiguration. God was about to unveil a new covenant. They also didn't understand that it was already given who would be on His right hand and His left when they asked Him. Moses/Word and Elijah/Spirit = bread and wine = true communion. Everything in there has hidden depths that the mainstream church has not delved into, thus it is written it is the glory of God to conceal a matter, but the honor of kings to uncover it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 "The thing is we were "born again." I really should change it say we were part of jesus' murder/suicide pact or something to effect but "abortions" is just is just that much more fun...don't you think?" Yes, well actually, the original language says, "born from above", which makes a great deal of difference and uncovers another doctrinal error of the mainstream camp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 "You let us know when the short bus gets you back home so you can tell us all about your friend in the sky, okay?" Good one. But actually I'm a healthcare professional who is required to attend state inservice training, and I'm much too old for school buses. But thanks for asking ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 He meant the one that carries the extra special needs... Nice to hear the method of Doctor Tarr and Professor Feather is still practised... and the 'question' was about being sure to tell us about the sky friend, not how your arse is hauled from place to place... Wordy fucking troll... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 I know that, Ace..........that's the field I work in.........that's why I have so much patience ........it's a pre-requisite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Ok, now...... let's get to it........ 1) Which one better describes an all-loving God: a.) One that gives human beings one chance only to get it right and if you don't condemns you to an eternal hell, or b.) One that allows you multiple chances to get it right so that you can spend eternity in the best place possible? By your reasoning, B would, but neither is correct. Hell means "separation from God", and there are many walking the face of the earth that are separated from God NOW. No need to go to another "place". That's why the scripture states we are only separated from Him in our MINDS. I won't bore you with details but there are many that have done the studies on the original languages and found that this doctrine was added later and misunderstood, which is why Paul, who wrote most of the NT never managed to devote much to it. If you don't mind, please do bore us with the details. We have a hard time seeing hell as simply "separation from God" when sinners are described in Revelation as being thrown in a lake of fire that burns forever. How much later was it added? Are you saying Revelation dates from the 3rd century? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 I know that, Ace..........that's the field I work in.........that's why I have so much patience ........it's a pre-requisite. You talk to an imaginary friend... I'd suggest they just let you think you work in the field... it's cheaper than coshing you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 He's not imaginary, Ace. If He didn't exist, neither would you, because He's in you. He's the breath that you breathe. Newsflash; if your spirit leaves your body, your body dies. God hid Himself in the last place He knew man would look........in man. He was there all along, but religion lied to us and told us He was "out there" somewhere and we had to ask Him to come in. Funny..........yet He said He would never leave us or forsake us...........I hate religion, personally. It has killed more people than all the world wars put together........but hey, that's just me ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 God hid Himself in the last place He knew man would look........in man. He was there all along, but religion lied to us and told us He was "out there" somewhere and we had to ask Him to come in. Ive never read it worded like that but it is exactly how I see it too sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Ok, now...... let's get to it........ By your reasoning, B would, but neither is correct...... That's why the scripture states we are only separated from Him in our MINDS. I won't bore you with details but there are many that have done the studies on the original languages and found that this doctrine was added later and misunderstood, which is why Paul, who wrote most of the NT never managed to devote much to it.......... ......And it goes back to erroneous teaching added around the 3rd century. ..................... He lowered Himself into His creation. Therefore the creation "mirrors" some aspect of His Truth, as it can be no less than what He is. So if you understand that we were made in His image, taken from the dust of the earth (the dirt), have a human spirit (the water), and are given a portion of His Holy Spirit (the oil), then you can see that even the natural realm reflects His plan and purpose, for even the elements follow a prescribed pattern. Therefore, knowing one Truth allows you to see it's mirror image in the creation, because the creation is His witness. So by this same principle, then it is easy to see that ALL religions have a fragment of Truth in them, which is why He told Adam (insert your name here, we are all Adam, a many membered body) he could eat of all the trees in the "garden" BUT one. We are referred to as trees, all of us, and we all bear fruit, of one kind or another..................... In other words.. What we read isn't what is ment nor originally stated, *if* only we learned a little bit O' this and a little bit O' that from all the different sorta kinda true Sources then we can find the True hidden path to gawd and the eternal road to life.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 No, the hell doctrine dates from the 3rd century. The writings are not in serious error, the understanding of it is, because the translators in the 3rd century didn't understand the principles themselves. Constantine the emperor, was the one who assembled the translators, and he had his own agenda. The lake of fire is another example. God is described as a consuming fire, and it says He makes HIS ministers a flame of fire. When you get a whole bunch of flames together, you could describe it as a "lake" of fire. If you understand the message of the burning bush that was NOT CONSUMED/DESTROYED, then you realize that all it means is, He changes the nature of that thing into His nature, and BOTH are still whole. Nothing is lost in God's economy, just as energy cannot be destroyed but simply changes form. It also says that the carnal mind is emnity against God, and that is why we are only separated from Him in our minds. We were created with a built in enemy. No soldier is worthy until proven in battle, just like a muscle that never gets exercise. This is why the first article of our spiritual armor was called the "helmet of salvation". The mind is a battleground. The carnal mind is like a woman's womb; it reproduces the nature of whatever seed is planted in it. This is why the soul is feminine in language structure and in type. The soul we were created with consists of the mind, will, emotions, and desires. The Spirit is male in type because the Spirit/male plants the "seed". First natural, then spiritual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 God hid Himself in the last place He knew man would look........in man. He was there all along, but religion lied to us and told us He was "out there" somewhere and we had to ask Him to come in. Ive never read it worded like that but it is exactly how I see it too sojourner I seen it put like that by Deepak Chopra (Hindu/Vedanta), Wayne Dyer (American New Thought), Param'hansa Yogananda(Hindu) and others. It's far from original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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