Five Questions That Christians Can't Answer

[Ouroboros]

"Like Daoism, Paganism, Wicca, Buddhism and naturalism?"

 

While all these, and other religions, have excellent philosophies, they also - from what I understand, - do not offer a solution to undoing the effects of your mistakes on your spirit.

You don't know that. That's your interpretation as an outsider to those "philosophies", and hence you reject them from ignorance.

 

Every mistake you deliberately make (sin) has an adverse effect on your soul. Christianity offers a way to undo that effect.

"Sin" is just a word, invented by Christians, it has no function or meaning what-so-ever for anyone outside Christianity. Christianity provides its own solution to its own invented problem.

 

As to why I believe in Heaven...

 

Let's assume that we have a soul and spirit. If we die, and this spirit (the force that powers our bodies) is still alive, so to speak, it must travel somewhere to stabilize, since it no longer has a body to work through (the body having long since broken down too much for the spirit to work through it any more; like a burned-out light bulb).

There must be, since there are always two sides to everything, a place for spirits to remain stable: either a place of punishment, on the negative end of the scale; or a place of pleasure, on the other end. Hence, if we are indeed superior to machines, in that we are a changing source of energy for our bodies, there must be a chance that - when our bodies die, - we will either end up in Heaven, or Hell.

So Zoroastrianism was right after all. There is a Heaven and Hell, and Ahura Mazda is the God, Angra Ahriman is the evil one, Zarathustra is God's prophet and Zurvan is the beginning and end. Good, you've convinced me. I'm becoming a zoroastrian. ... That's the religion you were talking about, right? Oh, btw, Zoroastrians have cleansing from "sin" (unrighteousness) through holy fire.

 

...

I can tell that you don't get it at all. No wonder you're a Christian. Ignorance is strong in that religion.

 

"There you go. God is fair, gives us free will, and if you use it you end up in Hell. Everyone in Hell can tell you how much they appreciated the freedom of choice. How that points to 'goodness' is beyond me. When I give my kids a choice between vanilla ice cream and chocolate ice cream, I don't the one who choose vanilla in rooms arrest for the rest of the week because I wanted them to pick chocolate."

 

It's not that, if you use your free will, you end up in Hell. It's, rather, that you end up in Hell for abusing it. Satan abused his free will, and has tried to tempt all of creation into abusing theirs, as well. Not only can you choose to worship God in your own way - according to the Bible, - as long as it comes from the heart; but you can also choose how to make your environment a better place, and how to help other people make their lives better. To change the rules in service to yourself is abusing that freedom of will, not just using it.

No, you end up in Heaven or Hell depending on how you're using your "Free Will". So in the end it is not "Free". It's like false advertizing that tell you "buy this one and you get this one free", which is wrong expression, because free is free is free is free is free... Free is without any costs or retributions of getting or using it. Basically Christianity is like the old T-Ford advertizing: "you can chose any color, as long as it's black." Because that was the only color they had. That is not a choice, and the contradiction is why it's so funny. But religious people can't see their logical fallacies.

 

"And why can't humans create morality? You say God can, but humans can't, but yet that is exactly what we see. Even Christians disagree one morality issues."

 

Humans can't create morality; because morality is following the rules however you can, with the least trouble in your own life. Now, if it's a choice between doing right by yourself, and doing right by the rest of creation, then Christians are admonished to serve the "greater good" over the "lesser good"; because, when you flip that around, and serve the lesser good instead, the "lesser good" becomes the "greater evil". Incidentally, I will agree with you that Christians should stop making up our own morals, and go by what the entire Bible teaches. And yet, our pride is still too strong for the majority of us to let that happen.

Got created morality however he wanted, so when he's following his "moral" laws, they are relative and arbitrary. If he can do it, and we're supposed to be images of him, then we can do it.

 

So, you don't want Christianity to make up its own morals, well, do you follow the moral code 100% the Bible gives you? Do you stone the unruly child? Have you sold all that you own and given to the poor yet? If not, then you're not a True Christian.

 

... (and a lot more)

I leave you to your delusions, and maybe one day you wake up and realize how you make arguments to excuse your belief, without really honestly trying to rationally figure out how all of it hangs together.

[Guest RevDDM]

Free will doesn' have more power than God; Free will is one of God's many gifts to us.

 

Yeah, sure Rev, some gift if using it gets us sent to hell.

You just don't get it, Rev. You are just not "free" to do whatever. There are a million antecedent reasons why people chose to do a particular thing, influences, the nervous system of that particular person, I could go on and on.

 

You still don't understand what I am saying.

 

Free will is a gift...

 

Like any gift, free will can be abused...

 

Like any abuse of a free gift, abusing free will has reprecussions.

 

Also, like properly using any gift, properly applying free will can be a beautiful thing, and God loves that.

 

The reprecussion for abusing that gift is to be sent to Hell.

 

The reward for properly using that gift is being sent to Heaven... provided you're innocent of having EVER abused that gift.

 

There are some things that are out of our hands... However, the majority of our lives are ours to do with as we see fit.

 

I am reminded of my dearly-departed friend. He was bound to a wheelchair for life, and had lived to the age of fourteen years (the doctors said he'd die by the time he was eight). He, for the most part, used his free will for good things: exercising his upper body, enjoying life, doing good for others, etc. There were times when he made mistakes by his free will; but, if he didn't know better, then he couldn't be held accountable for them. The problem was that the Catholic church taught him their standards, and he was constantly guilty by them. I shared with him what Christianity is really about, and how to have his guilt erased forever. Though I don't know for certain if he recieved Christ's gift before he died, I have hope that he did... at some point.

 

So you see, his illness was beyond his control, but it gave him a stronger sense of morality... which, if he did make it to heaven, means a lot up there, according to the Bible.

 

-Rev-

[Japedo]

"Frankly Sir, with my own human justice measuring stick, I can't understand why people would worship and follow such an evil putrid idea of a god."

 

 

If God had no good reason for what He did, I would be inclined to agree. However, God always has a reason for what He does. The Bible says, "'I know my plans for you', says the LORD; 'Plans for peace, and to make you prosper'". Everything He does is for the "greater good".

 

 

Murder/killing/maiming populations of people is never for the greater good. It is evil and repugnant, and nothing you can say, even if it is in your gods name will make it right. It makes your god cruel and evil, not good. These things are for his glory.. yet later on down the post.. using your own reason, and defense You condemn others for reasons of ego as being evil. For his Glory is for his ego is it not?

 

"Your god if put on trial would out murder Stalin,pol pot and Hitler combined. Yet you blindly attribute him as having some sorta 'morals'."

 

Out-kill, yes. Out-murder, no. No killing serves his own desires. He desires a place where there is no killing. However, until the appointed time, this will continue. At the appointed time, Creation will cease to function completely, and God will be able to step in without breaking His laws.

 

"How many people was satan convicted or recorded of murdering again........? You are going to say pride and vanity outdo your monster of a god on a justice scale? Are you crazy? LOL Isn't your god just as prideful and vain if not more so?"

 

Satan is responsible, either directly or indirectly, for all murder. Satan tempted every murderer to murder, and forced every soldier that killed into a position where he had to kill to stay alive and win the war. If it weren't for Satan, none of this would be happening...

My God is no monster. The picture you paint of Him is.

 

 

 

 

My God isn't prideful, or vain. He's practical. Why would you turn to a lesser source to get what you need, if the greatest source of all is waiting to help you - and all Creation, - however you need it?

 

You lie. Everything done is for his Glory... His glory meaning his Praise, pride, and ego. You claim on one hand that your God has out killed some of the worst committers of genocide in human history. It somehow helps you to defend this by not calling it murder but calling it killing. What is the difference? Do each of these individuals on the different tribes get a fair chance to state their case before they're killed and then tortured forever? Doesn't 'god" have all freaking eternity to 'punish' these low life sub-human life forms? Why take away the few minutes they have on earth for just being born to the wrong tribe? Isn't it also gods fault for causing these people to be born in the wrong tribe to begin with? These people have ZERO chance with your god. They were born to be murdered.. Oops I mean Killed for a greater good which you have still failed to state.

 

 

You blame Satan for wars and murders. Yet you claim god has Out killed. What's the difference, who's the worse evil? I say beings though your god controls everything and everyone it lays on his lap, hence he's evil and not worthy of worship or respect.

[Japedo]

"An abusive husband will tell his wife, Love me or suffer and die, Your god is no differnt."

 

There is a big difference, friend.

 

The abusive husband does that to soothe his own ego and to serve himself.

 

 

And your god does it for his own glory and to serve himself.. it is no different. If you don't "LOVE" him you're beaten, killed tortured and tormented FOR EVER, no one to save or help you. He is the abusive husband. Having unconditional love would mean if you didn't love him and kiss his ass, he'd accept you anyway, not hurt or harm you. Christians are victims of an abusive mindset. Hell is the abusive gun to the head of LOVE Me, serve me, worship me or suffer beatings and torture if you refuse is not Unconditional love, it's not love at all, it's abuse. There is no way to pussy foot around this fact.

 

"You give your god the same lame ass excuse as people do other abusers."

 

I am deeply offended that you would put me in a category with abuse-enablers, just because you have a sour outlook on life, that you are always right all the time, and that you are above everything that is.

 

 

we'll I'm deeply offended that your blood-cult has infected and affected numerous of people, families and lives around this planet and not for the better. Your cult is abusive for reasons that I laid out and more. Sorry if the truth is an uncomfortable and an offensive thing to look at. It is what it is, your buybull say's what it say's. I'm also offended that you would so willy-nilly dismiss victims of murder (ooops I mean killing) and rape as for the greater good with out even an ounce of emotion or empathy. Your god is as evil as I said, your buybull say's so. If that's your prototype for who you're suppose to be an example of.. well then It's not my fault, He's your role model.

 

 

"The women has free will to be beat up and killed, it's her choice if that's what she wants. Hell and your self-loathing cult is the same mindset."

 

The woman can put up with that, if she wants to, or thinks that there is no other way. That's what Satan does: if you don't want to sin, he tries to convince you that there is no other way... that you must sin to survive.

 

On the other side of the coin, let's say it's the man being abused by the wife... psychologically. She tells him he's not good enough, accuses him of all kinds of problems - real, or otherwise, - and makes him feel bad for doing the only thing he can do to do the right thing. Then, she sleeps around on him. Is it his fault that she got some kind of venereal disease? Would you blame him for not wanting to have sex with her, after all of that? That's the way God is in such a situation: if you abuse Him, and do everything you can to defy Him, then He has no choice but to leave you to your own devices. If, however, you see the error of your ways and turn back to Him, truly sorry for what you've done and not planning to do it ever again, He will take you back... regardless of what happened before.

 

-RevDDM-

 

 

Uhh? What?

 

First... Your first sentence. Let me rephrase it..

 

The Christian can put up with that, if they want to, or thinks that there is no other way. That's what God does: if you don't want to sin, he tries to convince you that there is no other way... that you must hate yourself and love him to survive.

 

Now as to the other side of your coin.. WTF does that have to do with God? I'm lost on your analogy.. it makes no sense. First you can not abuse what doesn't exist. I hold no belief in your god, he has zero power over me and my life. I offer no abuse to him DDM, no more then I abuse Santa. But I digress..

 

No it wouldn't be his fault he got VD, but he was still have VD never the less, fault is immaterial to the facts at hand. God doesn't erase the vd even if the persons innocent. The VD doesn't get erased if a person turns to god.. they need to turn to Dr.'s and Medication. Have you seen how many babies are born with HIV as an example? The child has aids/ HIV what do you propose they did to anger god to receive such earthly punishment? I suppose you'll say this is more 'love'?

[Grandpa Harley]

I tend to find that people who make loud, Ex-Cathedra comments about what sort of hell the world would be without Christ are usually using the religion as a reason not to become a serial killer

 

Isn't that a little prejudiced? I have no desire to become a serial killer, and I believe that.

 

Without Jesus, what's to stop you? You said there are no 'morals' without him. Thus the morality of God must be preventing you doing something, otherwise you'd not make claims like that... so... what is it? Rape? Murder? Heady admixture of the two? Profligate sex with other's wives? Other's husbands? Maybe children? Perhaps drugs. Drink. Gambling... Jesus stops you from being bad, so I'm happy you believe in him. Otherwise, the assertion that there are no morals without Jesus is empty... if you wouldn't do it if Jesus was a myth, then you're just 'moral' in the sense that Hippocrates was 'moral' - First, do no harm!

 

 

Seems to me that I was being starkly realistic about the rattlesnakes who follow the Demon God of the Bible for Brownie points in the 'after life'... and trying to sell their venom to ex-addicts...

[Guest RevDDM]

"Another question, why does god need worship at all?"

 

God doesn't need it... it's just that He likes being credited for His work...

 

So we are being punished for not doing something god doesn't even need. Why would he like credit? You are just avoiding the question because it speaks to the character of your "moral" god.

 

 

If you painted a picture, and it was hung in a world-famous art gallery, would you want to remain anonymous? I know I wouldn't. God, like any of us, just ikes to hear that His work is appreciated, every once in a while. Besides that, worshipping God brings us closer to Him, which helps us to rely on Him to help us in our time of need, instead of relying on one of His creations - which are all infinitely less powerful than Him, - or doing it all on our own.

 

-Rev-

[Guest RevDDM]

I don't believe that absolutely everything hinges on free will. I believe that God anticipated the possibilities of what free will would bring, and created "contingency laws". For example: if man wanted to break all God's laws, man would throw Creation into turmoil. Therefore, God puts laws into place that stop man from breaking all His laws (such as certain laws of physics).

 

Yes, our destinies are pre-ordained to a certain extent; however, we can also choose what actions we use to illicit the reaction of our destinies.

 

By the way, I'm moving soon, so I might not be able to respond to any more repiles for a long time. I will be back as soon as I can.

 

Take care, all.

 

-Rev-

 

Makes god's character even worse that he "anticipated the possiblitiesof what free will would bring, and created "contingency laws" doesn't it? He doesn't even have the excuse of innocence. The laws of physics are not what we are discussing, are they? We are talking about the character of god.

 

You say "...we can also choose what actions we use to illicit the reaction of our destinies." I have no idea what this means. Please rephrase it.

 

You don't mean you are leaving? Please come back so we can hear more and further demolish your arguments.

 

Every action has an equal, or greater, and opposite re-action. We choose what we do, and the reaction happens naturally.

 

I'll try to make my absense as short as possible...

 

-Rev-

[Deva]

Also, like properly using any gift, properly applying free will can be a beautiful thing, and God loves that.

 

The reprecussion for abusing that gift is to be sent to Hell.

-Rev-

 

It is not free and it sure is not a "gift" under the above circumstances you describe. You don't seem to understand that.

[Ouroboros]

"How do you know these intricate details about what happened in Heaven before the world was created? Let me ask you the question I get sometimes about the Big Bang: were you there?"

 

They were reveald to us, through inspiration, by God Himself. If we go from there, we can probably prove them. It's true that it's a hypothesis, but isn't that how scientific discoveries start?

Who is "us"? Did these revelations come to you personally without the interference of other peoples opinions and influence, or did you get all your information and belief from other people? I guess 99.99% of what you believe comes from other peoples interpretations of the Bible and outside sources, and not your own belief. You were molded into your faith, but the instrument of other people. Brainwashed is another word.

 

Prove them, how? The problem is that people have been trying to prove God for thousands of years, and they have tried to prove Jesus too, but it vain. In just a few hundre years science has been able to prove 90% of what it claims. Do Christianity have the same success rate? No, I don't think so. It fails miserable to prove each and every key point of its belief. Belief is based on things you can't see or prove, and so it will stay.

 

"It's a pseudo-philosophical argument many apologists use to prove that God must exist."

 

I figured that... Even so, it still eludes me. If you can, please provide an example of it.

The "perfect tuned universe" argument is based on the notion that the universe is "perfectly tuned", and hence it must be designed, and it also claims that this is the only way a universe can be "tuned" or organized, otherwise it wouldn't be "perfect". So is heaven also perfectly tuned the same way or is it "perfectly tuned" a different way? If it is different, then the "tuning" of our universe isn't the only possible version, but it can be done other ways, then the argument for design fails since there can be other versions. Do you follow?

 

"Then it is good to die?"

 

It's not good to die; however, if you've properly prepared yourself, it's not something to be feared.

When I was Christian I feared I had some unforgiven sins in my life and God would possibly deny entry into Heaven.

 

Now when I'm atheist, I've come to terms and harmony with death. I'm even willing to die if I have to.

 

Have you to terms with it, and are you willing to die for your loved ones?

 

"That 'self-evident' argument isn't so obvious to me. And even if it was, why does that prove YHWH+Jesus+HolySpirit (3 gods in 1 god? What is self-evident to say that Jesus magically made the world with his pinky will singing twinkle-twinkle-little-star? It's just stories. No evidence."

 

LOL In any case, the evidence can be found in the strategic structuring of the smallest materials known to humankind. On any scale, a clear and concise structure can be found... even on a macrocosmic one. Scientists, for example, found a "blank spot" in space. If this universe were created at random, how do you explain that scientists have yet to find any other such spot? (I'm not talking about black holes, here. They found a spot where no gravitational field, nor even dark matter, could be found.)

I have never heard about that "blank spot". Can you provide a link or a reference please?

 

"So did God create the bacteria and the virus before the fall, or after the fall, or did Satan create them? (Because I can't find where you answered that question earlier)"

 

Unfortunately, I didn't have time to earlier. God did create them; however, before Satan caused God's order in Creation to be marred forever, they were harmless. They had no predisposition to change their environment upon entering a host. When they did enter a host, it was a symbiotic relationship, but it was a harmless one: the invader would most likely only feed on a small portion of nutrients from the digested food, rather than the host itself. If it were the other way around, then surely the e.coli in our bodies would be responsible for our destruction. It seems that certain strains of viri and bacteria have not changed so much as to become harmful. I propose that some other function might have changed about them; for instance, maybe certain strains can no longer exist outside of certain environments; whereas, before, they could easily survive outside their host.

I'm sorry but I have to roll on the floor!!!

 

Virus and bacteria harmless. It's like saying "before the fall no one ate food". Bacteria and virus can't be the way they are without doing what they do. A virus is a sing DNA strain with very simplistic functions. You can't make that string of code do something else and still be a virus. And if they were harmless as you said, then their DNA encoding MUST HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT! Which means that the DNA encoding CHANGED after the fall. Who change it and how? (A change in the DNA must only mean Evolution)

[Grandpa Harley]

Free will doesn' have more power than God; Free will is one of God's many gifts to us.

 

Yeah, sure Rev, some gift if using it gets us sent to hell.

You just don't get it, Rev. You are just not "free" to do whatever. There are a million antecedent reasons why people chose to do a particular thing, influences, the nervous system of that particular person, I could go on and on.

 

You still don't understand what I am saying.

 

Free will is a gift...

 

Like any gift, free will can be abused...

 

Like any abuse of a free gift, abusing free will has reprecussions.

 

Also, like properly using any gift, properly applying free will can be a beautiful thing, and God loves that.

 

The reprecussion for abusing that gift is to be sent to Hell.

 

The reward for properly using that gift is being sent to Heaven... provided you're innocent of having EVER abused that gift.

 

There are some things that are out of our hands... However, the majority of our lives are ours to do with as we see fit.

 

I am reminded of my dearly-departed friend. He was bound to a wheelchair for life, and had lived to the age of fourteen years (the doctors said he'd die by the time he was eight). He, for the most part, used his free will for good things: exercising his upper body, enjoying life, doing good for others, etc. There were times when he made mistakes by his free will; but, if he didn't know better, then he couldn't be held accountable for them. The problem was that the Catholic church taught him their standards, and he was constantly guilty by them. I shared with him what Christianity is really about, and how to have his guilt erased forever. Though I don't know for certain if he recieved Christ's gift before he died, I have hope that he did... at some point.

 

So you see, his illness was beyond his control, but it gave him a stronger sense of morality... which, if he did make it to heaven, means a lot up there, according to the Bible.

 

-Rev-

 

I think most of us here speak English as a first language... it's just that you're talking circular nonsense that can only pass muster if you're brainwashed, running away from 'something' (see my 'morality' post), or you're a moron.

[Deva]

If you painted a picture, and it was hung in a world-famous art gallery, would you want to remain anonymous? I know I wouldn't.

 

I wouldn't mind being anonymous. I would still have the satisfaction of having done something that others found to be worthwhile. In 1,000 years my name on a picture would not mean anything anyway. Haven't you ever heard of doing something just for the pleasure of doing it? That you need appreciation for creating something of value and beauty shows your character.

[Ouroboros]

Free will doesn' have more power than God; Free will is one of God's many gifts to us.

 

Yeah, sure Rev, some gift if using it gets us sent to hell.

You just don't get it, Rev. You are just not "free" to do whatever. There are a million antecedent reasons why people chose to do a particular thing, influences, the nervous system of that particular person, I could go on and on.

 

You still don't understand what I am saying.

 

Free will is a gift...

 

Like any gift, free will can be abused...

No, no, no, you're the one that don't understand.

 

If you give a X-mas present to someone, do you demand they use it only according to your instructions, or else you will lock them into your garage without food for the rest of their lives?

 

Free means Free, not Conditional. What you're talking about is Conditional Choice, not "Free" Choice.

 

Like any abuse of a free gift, abusing free will has reprecussions.

Yeah. Death.

 

Are animals robots or do they have a free will as well? The Bible say in the OT that animals got a soul. Do they? Are they punished for abusing it?

 

Also, like properly using any gift, properly applying free will can be a beautiful thing, and God loves that.

Chose between 1 and 2. If you pick 2 I cut your hand off, but if you pick 1 I will give you a gift. I'm so full of love, ain't I?

 

The reprecussion for abusing that gift is to be sent to Hell.

A punishment? Can you Christians make up your friggin mind!!! Whenever I say Hell is a punishment, some Christian claim it ISN'T. So what is it then? Punishment or reward or what?

 

The reward for properly using that gift is being sent to Heaven... provided you're innocent of having EVER abused that gift.

Again, then I become a Zoroastrian, since its the true religion.

 

There are some things that are out of our hands... However, the majority of our lives are ours to do with as we see fit.

 

I am reminded of my dearly-departed friend. He was bound to a wheelchair for life, and had lived to the age of fourteen years (the doctors said he'd die by the time he was eight). He, for the most part, used his free will for good things: exercising his upper body, enjoying life, doing good for others, etc. There were times when he made mistakes by his free will; but, if he didn't know better, then he couldn't be held accountable for them. The problem was that the Catholic church taught him their standards, and he was constantly guilty by them. I shared with him what Christianity is really about, and how to have his guilt erased forever. Though I don't know for certain if he recieved Christ's gift before he died, I have hope that he did... at some point.

 

So you see, his illness was beyond his control, but it gave him a stronger sense of morality... which, if he did make it to heaven, means a lot up there, according to the Bible.

FYI, I have a son in wheelchair. Emotional stories don't bite on me. I've gone through Hell, and I came back as a new man, and of some reason then I lost my faith!

[Grandpa Harley]

"Another question, why does god need worship at all?"

 

God doesn't need it... it's just that He likes being credited for His work...

 

So we are being punished for not doing something god doesn't even need. Why would he like credit? You are just avoiding the question because it speaks to the character of your "moral" god.

 

 

If you painted a picture, and it was hung in a world-famous art gallery, would you want to remain anonymous? I know I wouldn't. God, like any of us, just ikes to hear that His work is appreciated, every once in a while. Besides that, worshipping God brings us closer to Him, which helps us to rely on Him to help us in our time of need, instead of relying on one of His creations - which are all infinitely less powerful than Him, - or doing it all on our own.

 

-Rev-

 

Why the hell would 'painter' need his painting to tell him that the painting thinks it's good job? The artist posited is getting praise from his 'peers' you muppet, not his painting... why would one care what the painting thinks? Peer admiration I can understand... obsequiousness from the infinitely inferior, the pale reflection, the clay moulded in play, seems to me to be an ego trip...

[Japedo]

That kind of animosity is a huge reason why Christians have such a negative perception of atheists, and other non-Christians. If you can't have a civil discussion, you resort to back-biting, name-calling, and other infantile tactics? People with your kind of attitude give "ex-christians" and atheists a bad name. Where, in any of my posts, did I attack you? Perhaps you're attacking me because you know, deep down inside yourself, that you really have no argument, and you're just pulling pieces of the Bible out at random to try to trip people up.

 

Wait wait before you leave...

 

You are something else. It never ceases to amaze me that Xtians will stand and bully their buybull bs down our throats claiming how lowly worthless sinners we are and how we need god, then become surprised when we don't fawn all over them welcoming their spittle with open arms. You follow an ideology that tortures and harms people, for daring to question and be individuals. You make excuse for mass murders (oops I mean killings) for no rhyme or reason other then to glorify your gods overly huge ego. There is nothing worthy of respect in the Christian death cult.

 

This might come as a shock to all you xtians but, Hello... I'm godless.. I'm your definition of all that's evil in the world. I do not type for any other person other then myself, I represent no dogma, no organization, no creed. . I am completely individual. I might be bitchy, but that's my own personality and has no baring on my lack of belief. I'm much nicer since I have ceased being a Christian I assure you! I do not assume to speak for any atheists, nor Ex-Christians. Only myself. If you find me to be an ass, then I'm an ass by my own doing. As I have stated, I detest your dogma.. It's evil for all the reasons I have stated and then some. You as a person however, I don't know from a hole in the wall... I'm sure you're a very nice guy, I'm talking about your Dogma/ god that you blindly defend, that's all.

[SWIM]

I hear this "freewill" bullshit all the time. Let's inject some common sense into that concept.

 

In the USA are you free to shoplift? It is illegal. Therefore you are not *free* to grab an ipod and run. But people do it. What happens to them? They get punished. Oh but punishment is *meant* to reform. That's why they let inmates learn trades. Putting someone in jail is *primarily* to protect the rest of society from anti-social behavior. BUT WE ARE NOT FREE TO SHOPLIFT YET WE CAN.

 

Same with the hell deal.

 

You do not have freewill if you *are* going to be punished. You can freely choose to shoplift, but you WILL pay for it. This is NOT freewill it is law-breaking.

 

So it is the same with xtianty. You are *not* free to sin, there is laws against it (ten commandments, note not ten requests) and there is clear punishment. So no, you are NOT free to sin, it is not freewill.

 

In humanity, even our strictest laws, like chopping off the hands of a shoplifter, is FAR MORE fair then buring FOR_FUCKIN_EVER for something that you did in a split second.

 

Xtian hell theology makes god out to be worse then hitler. At least his victims eventually died and the torment and horror ended, in your fuckedup religion you NEVER get out of *jail*.

 

Imagine the USA sentencing people for life in prision for adultry.... Would you think it fair? It's fairer then being burned endlessly forever. After all, using your logic, the person had freewill, they didn't need to commit adultry, the CHOOSE to do so. Still, a life sentence in a penetentury would be considered EXTREME. What if we could stick them in a pod and maintain life support so they never die and feed them a virtual reality of torment. Oh that's fair right? After all, they made a choice to do it right?

 

How on the face of this fuckin earth can you possibly believe this? If you *do* believe it, you are insulting the god you believe in to the MOST extreme, you are praising something that you *know* is dishing out punishment to people that is blown way out of purpotion. Your insult to god is likened to telling him in your heart that you think he is more henious then hitler. You should be *very* ashamed.

[Grandpa Harley]

That kind of animosity is a huge reason why Christians have such a negative perception of atheists, and other non-Christians. If you can't have a civil discussion, you resort to back-biting, name-calling, and other infantile tactics? People with your kind of attitude give "ex-christians" and atheists a bad name. Where, in any of my posts, did I attack you? Perhaps you're attacking me because you know, deep down inside yourself, that you really have no argument, and you're just pulling pieces of the Bible out at random to try to trip people up.

 

You actually did insult us in a couple of ways...

 

1) Our intelligence - you assume that we're no longer Christian becuase of stupidity. The reverse is true... we got out since we began to use our innate intellects...

 

2) Our morality - You assert that without God there is no morality. Thus, we are, de facto, amoral... well Fer-UCK you.

[Deva]

Every action has an equal, or greater, and opposite re-action. We choose what we do, and the reaction happens naturally.

 

I'll try to make my absense as short as possible...

 

-Rev-

 

If you ever do decide to come back, please let me know what the above sentence on "action" means in the context of "free will". I am just dying to know. I am sure you don't really mean something like karma happens, do you? Or when you say "naturally" do you mean god has abdicated his power to something else called nature? What DO you mean?

[SWIM]

Every action has an equal, or greater, and opposite re-action. We choose what we do, and the reaction happens naturally.

 

I'll try to make my absense as short as possible...

 

-Rev-

 

If you ever do decide to come back, please let me know what the above sentence on "action" means in the context of "free will". I am just dying to know. I am sure you don't really mean something like karma happens, do you? Or when you say "naturally" do you mean god has abdicated his power to something else called nature? What DO you mean?

 

Even in that guys words, an *equal* and opposite reaction... OK what is *equal* about everlasting damnation? Nothing equal at all, it's foolishness! Equal would be:

 

I killed my friends brother, so he in turn, killed mine. *Not* I killed my friends brother, now I will burn forever and ever with great weeping and knashing of teeth an stuff...

 

That fellow needs to at least read and comprehend what *he* wrote. Words out of *his own mouth* indicate that he does not believe in inbalanced justice, yet he subscibes to it. It's like him praying "Oh great tormentor of souls, ye whom casteth souls into hell, how just you are...."

[SWIM]

"Another question, why does god need worship at all?"

 

God doesn't need it... it's just that He likes being credited for His work...

 

So we are being punished for not doing something god doesn't even need. Why would he like credit? You are just avoiding the question because it speaks to the character of your "moral" god.

If you painted a picture, and it was hung in a world-famous art gallery, would you want to remain anonymous?

 

There are a *lot* of artists that have created works of art that *diliberately* sign it anonymous. They wanted people to apprciate *what* it is, not *who* it came from.

 

I know I wouldn't. God, like any of us, just ikes to hear that His work is appreciated, every once in a while. Besides that, worshipping God brings us closer to Him, which helps us to rely on Him to help us in our time of need, instead of relying on one of His creations - which are all infinitely less powerful than Him, - or doing it all on our own.

 

-Rev-

 

Your time of *need* is right now. You are faced with a crowd of people that use basic common sense and logic to *try* and free you of your delusion. Where is he? I for one do *not* see anything in your posts except the result of brainwashing imposed on you by either your parents or the irrational data you have subjected to over years.

[Japedo]

As to why Lot offered his own daughters... Don't you think he realized that the crowd wouldn't do anything to them? Obviously, the crowd wanted to have homosexual sex... meaning that they were aroused by the MEN! What, exactly, would a gay man do with a straight woman? Ask any gay man, and they'll probably tell you the same thing: NOTHING! At the worst, they might have cast the girls out of the city, whereupon they could return to Abraham and live with him. In any case, there are many times when people made up ideas and reasons that they knew wouldn't work, just to stall for time. Take, for example, the Pharaoh and the Jewish mid-wives. When they were asked why they didn't kill the boys, they stalled for time by making up the story that Jewish women give birth too fast. Did the Pharaoh stop the killings? NO! It just bought them some more time, so they could figure out how to get rid of the boys, without killing them. But, do you criticize the Egyptians for their atrocities against the Israelites? NO! Do you, likewise, criticize the communists for their beating and killing of political dissidents, and non-violent Christians? Have I seen anything where you lament their crimes against humanity? NO! So, what you're saying is that it's okay for Christians and Jews to die, but it's not okay for us to fight back. Any you judge mine, and my God's morality!

 

 

 

So glad you decided to bite. A few things.

 

1) If what you (wrongly) state is that, it was a sex crazed mob of Gay Guys, let me ask you this? Why didn't the Righteous Lot offer his own ass to be assaulted to save the angles and his daughters?

 

2) If S & G were destroyed for just Homosexual male sex (as you also wrongly suggest) then why were the women and children also burned alive in the city?

 

3) The Laws of sex hadn't been written yet and given to men (I.E. the Commandments) How do you logically wrap your mind that this is a sin, or that the people should be destroyed for the supposed sin. If God didn't give the laws to man yet, how the hell were they suppose to know them?

 

 

4) You're grossly misinformed about gay people, they are just like everyone else, who should be judged on individual character and not falsely brushed with some hate mongerers broad brush.

 

 

5) I'll wait while you pull out your buybull to read this particular verse as to why it's stated S & G were destroyed.

Please refer to the book of Ezekiel 16:49-50.

 

Now this was the sin of Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

 

 

Can you please show me in your buybull how this relates to the WRONG picture you painted in your answer given? Thanks!

 

 

Now, as to the Egyptians vs's god. Are you honesty going to put god and Man on the same playing field? You can't have it both ways DDM. You can't say God is sinless and perfectly just and use a fallible human in comparison to gods injustices. I do not defend the murder of anyone. If an Egyptian murdered someone they should be held accountable for their personal actions. I don't believe an entire race of people should be murdered (oops I mean killed) to prove a point as to which gawd has the biggest penis.

 

 

Speaking of personal responsibility and accountability, what ever did happen to Moses who murdered the Egyptian guard? The Egyptians didn't have the god of Abraham, yet murder was still against the law, imagine that.. a law against murder in the village of the heretics. Guess you're also wrong about that...

[Grandpa Harley]

"1) If what you (wrongly) state is that, it was a sex crazed mob of Gay Guys, let me ask you this? Why didn't the Righteous Lot offer his own ass to be assaulted to save the angles and his daughters?"

 

To amplify this, in the more remote cities, raping strangers, of whatever gender, when they were on the street after nightfall was more or less the only entertainment.

 

Seems that good ol' Rev (a pox on the worm-tongued cousiner) is just making up pretty stories, pandering to his own Tom of Finland fantasies, it would seem... Tell us Rev, were they swinging some Hose?

[Ouroboros]

That kind of animosity is a huge reason why Christians have such a negative perception of atheists, and other non-Christians. If you can't have a civil discussion, you resort to back-biting, name-calling, and other infantile tactics? People with your kind of attitude give "ex-christians" and atheists a bad name. Where, in any of my posts, did I attack you? Perhaps you're attacking me because you know, deep down inside yourself, that you really have no argument, and you're just pulling pieces of the Bible out at random to try to trip people up.

The hate and fear mongering propaganda from Christians is why atheists are so angry. So it goes both ways. I've been at dinner parties where the hosts give their opinion about how evil and dangerous atheists are, without knowing I am one. So does it make me furious? YOU BET! Hate speech even from the president makes us afraid. We're not non-patriots because we have no belief in your particular God. And with laws changed to comform the country to Souther Baptist style Christianity means that we also pay taxes that goes into Church rebuildings. Would that piss someone off? Absolutely. Why not have a "Atheist Based Initiative" from the President? I guess that won't happen. So in the end, why many atheists gets a bit offensive in their arguments, it's because of the social climate and the anti-atheist-culture that even is presented in our country.

 

And why are you so offended? Why are you suddenly so angry? Maybe because deep down you know that your religion is a lie?

[Japedo]

As to how we know that Lot could have been raped... If Lot were that kind of pervert, don't you think he'd have started raping his daughters in his own home? Yet, he refers to them as virgins! It seems you're the one who is favouring the offenders over the victim, and believing them, on the prejudice that the victim was drunk, and the offenders were teen-aged girls! I wonder, how many times would you have gotten a female rapist off on charges of rape or molestation?

 

 

 

It's your buybull story DDM. Put it to you this way. Would you allow an excuse to fly that your significant other was 'drunk' and allow that reason to stand as to why they fucked around on you? If you wouldn't buy that reason for your own life, why the hell would you attempt to support that reason to a supposed righteous guy in a story.... Nice of you to blindly blame CHILDREN for the egregious sex acts. Most girls were married off by age of 12 or 13 in those days.... How lovely you blame children around that age for raping their father... I find your support of this action deplorable and despicable. Tell me, do you also offer this type of defenses to priests and clergy men whom do the same to young kids? You are obviously supporting not only incest but blame the child for the sex in your defense here... how very.. ehemm.. 'Christian of you.

[Grandpa Harley]

Like him coming here gave Christians a 'good' name... my whole, white, English, arse...

[Antlerman]

That kind of animosity is a huge reason why Christians have such a negative perception of atheists, and other non-Christians. If you can't have a civil discussion, you resort to back-biting, name-calling, and other infantile tactics? People with your kind of attitude give "ex-christians" and atheists a bad name. Where, in any of my posts, did I attack you? Perhaps you're attacking me because you know, deep down inside yourself, that you really have no argument, and you're just pulling pieces of the Bible out at random to try to trip people up.

The hate and fear mongering propaganda from Christians is why atheists are so angry. So it goes both ways. I've been at dinner parties where the hosts give their opinion about how evil and dangerous atheists are, without knowing I am one. So does it make me furious? YOU BET! Hate speech even from the president makes us afraid. We're not non-patriots because we have no belief in your particular God. And with laws changed to comform the country to Souther Baptist style Christianity means that we also pay taxes that goes into Church rebuildings. Would that piss someone off? Absolutely. Why not have a "Atheist Based Initiative" from the President? I guess that won't happen. So in the end, why many atheists gets a bit offensive in their arguments, it's because of the social climate and the anti-atheist-culture that even is presented in our country.

 

And why are you so offended? Why are you suddenly so angry? Maybe because deep down you know that your religion is a lie?

Personally, I try to set an example to both sides by living by this ideal: I judge each human being on their individual actions, and treat them as I would wish to be treated. Eye for an eye is a failed plan of God in the OT. If Bush and friends in politics go around stereotyping atheists as one thing (like saying all blacks are thieves, that sort of thing), then I will rise above their simple-mindedness and act towards them as I would have them act towards me. Ironic, isn't it? If a Christian speaks with respect towards me and makes a genuine effort at respecting me, then I will honor them for that, even if we disagree philosophically. Agreeing is not a prerequisite for respect.

 

(sermon over )