Five Questions That Christians Can't Answer

[Grandpa Harley]

" And there was me thinking that it was just bad writing... and Moshe means 'Boss' as well as a few other meanings.

 

So, why are you hear throwing out the shit you've made up while stealing other in-patient's medications"

 

Good one.......but I haven't made up any of it. You give me far too much credit........

 

 

"What you are doing is called pesher (it's like midrash)."

 

Thank you. I consider that a compliment and a referral back to my roots

 

The interpretation is entirely your own delusion, based on a book of gibberish voted in by a bunch of guys who wanted to rule the world and succeeded.

 

And by pesher/midrash, they're pointing out with more tact than I could muster that you're pulling the stuff out of your ass... Warmed over Thiering is duller than fresh, steaming Theiring...

[Toaster]

Again, I tell you, you give me far too much credit because I could not have put all these things together if I had wanted to. Eccles: There's nothing new under the sun.......Goodnight Pinky

[Grandpa Harley]

OK then, Retard, who's line of crazy bullshit are you spouting if you didn't make it up on the fly?

 

and why aren't you pumping your mental sewage in a place where people would claim it smells good?

[Toaster]

Now, now.......have I called you disparaging names? If you want to know where it came from, read my posts.

[Grandpa Harley]

1) it wasn't a disparaging name, it was an opinion

 

2) based on what you've written you've pulled it out of your ass...

[Jun]

...........if your spirit leaves your body, your body dies. God hid Himself in the last place He knew man would look........in man.

 

Spirit? What spirit? Where does it reside? In the flesh? In our DNA? Up our arse perhaps? Belief in antiquated supernatural mumbo-jumbo in this day and age - who would've thought.

 

"God" hiding inside me?! Sh!t, get outta there you sick bastard! No don't do that, ouch! Why you, I'm gonna make you pay. Owww! that hurt....

 

Nope, no one else in here!

[Ouroboros]

God said in Isaiah, line upon line, precept upon precept.........

Actually it was Bob who said it, but he wanted you to think it was God. Sorry, he didn't mean to get you all involved in that crazy religion and all, so he's a bit sorry. At least that's what Bob told me yesterday on the telephone.

[dr_funkenstein]

Actually it was Bob who said it, but he wanted you to think it was God. Sorry, he didn't mean to get you all involved in that crazy religion and all, so he's a bit sorry. At least that's what Bob told me yesterday on the telephone.

God, that Bob's a real cunt sometimes!

[Grandpa Harley]

Do you mind? I've spent many happy hours curled up with a warm cunt... stop sullying my memories

[mwc]

"What you are doing is called pesher (it's like midrash)."

 

Thank you. I consider that a compliment and a referral back to my roots

So you have a history of hearing what you want to hear and twisting the words of others to suit your own personal agenda?

 

mwc

[Ouroboros]

Actually it was Bob who said it, but he wanted you to think it was God. Sorry, he didn't mean to get you all involved in that crazy religion and all, so he's a bit sorry. At least that's what Bob told me yesterday on the telephone.

God, that Bob's a real cunt sometimes!

Well, he got his good and bad sides like all divine beings. He's behind all the sad, boring, ugly and poor produced sequels to all block-buster movies. But he's also good in the sense that he makes popcorn taste good when you're watching one of those crappy movies...

 

Last one I saw was Resident Evil #3. Urgh... It failed to live up to the first two. Shame on you Bob. Destroy such a nice franchise. But the popcorn was good...

[Kratos]

This might be a good topic to pin. Every Christian I have ever posed these questions to has never been able to give me a straight answer:

 

1) Which one better describes an all-loving God: a.) One that gives human beings one chance only to get it right and if you don't condemns you to an eternal hell, or b.) One that allows you multiple chances to get it right so that you can spend eternity in the best place possible?

 

2) People who speak of "hell" associate it with divine punishment, but punishment is usually used as a corrective measure. How do people suffering in an eternal hell learn their lesson? Doesn't that make hell mere torture with absolutely no point to it?

 

3) There are thousands of different denominations in Christianity, each thinking they have it right. All other religions think that they have it right, as well. How can you be sure that you have it right, when the odds are that you are actually wrong?

 

4) Where in the Bible does Jesus say that people must worship him or pray to him? Doesn't he identify himself as the "Son of Man" who was sent by the Father?

 

5) Jesus himself and his disciples seem to believe in reincarnation, as evidenced in Matthew 11:10-15, Matthew 17:10-13 and John 9:1-2. Why is the word of Paul in Hebrews 9:27 taken over Jesus in Christian doctrine?

 

 

Not sure if what I believe will be considered a "straight answer" enough for all, but I am a devote hetero male so maybe I can pass. It is probably, also, too late to come back to topic after 55 pages, but I never could resist a dare.

 

(1) I definately believe that my loving God will work with all until they come to perfection. I do not believe that this means reincarnation, but it does mean the resurrection of all in an age to come.

 

(2) You are right that those who speak of hell as being eternal do not understand correction. Hell is not eternal because it is corrective.

 

(3) I do not think that denominations are of God and I can absolutley guarentee that I do not have it all right.

 

(4) Jesus refers to Himself as both the Son of God and the Son of Man. He tells us to pray to the Father in His Name. Works for me.

 

(5) I do not see where Jesus or His disciples believed in reincarnation. It was prophesied that John would come in the spirit and power of Elijah. This is not the same as actually being Elijah. John came with a similar calling and anointing. In fact, the verse given in John 9 specifically says that this man's blindness was not because of what anyone who lived before had done. It is given unto man once to die, but this is not the end of any of us. Then, comes the resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked when God's work continues in all of us.

 

My 2 cents and probably will not be what others see, but it is straight. LOL

 

Kratos

[mwc]

(1) I definately believe that my loving God will work with all until they come to perfection. I do not believe that this means reincarnation, but it does mean the resurrection of all in an age to come.

 

(2) You are right that those who speak of hell as being eternal do not understand correction. Hell is not eternal because it is corrective.

What does "come to perfection" mean? The resurrection? Not everyone gets to partake. The early church fathers are pretty clear on that.

 

How does one get loosed from that Lake of Fire once Death and Hades are tossed into it?

 

(3) I do not think that denominations are of God and I can absolutley guarentee that I do not have it all right.

But the "church" is what Paul asserts is what jesus himself is the head of. How can the "church" be so messed up? Does jesus have neurological issues?

 

(4) Jesus refers to Himself as both the Son of God and the Son of Man. He tells us to pray to the Father in His Name. Works for me.

He also says (to paraphrase) "we are all gods." I've tried to exercise my magical powers but I've failed. He says a number of things in addition to that. I bet if we were to start pointing them all out it wouldn't be a simple shrug and "Works for me" at that point.

 

(5) I do not see where Jesus or His disciples believed in reincarnation. It was prophesied that John would come in the spirit and power of Elijah. This is not the same as actually being Elijah. John came with a similar calling and anointing. In fact, the verse given in John 9 specifically says that this man's blindness was not because of what anyone who lived before had done. It is given unto man once to die, but this is not the end of any of us. Then, comes the resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked when God's work continues in all of us.

Yeah, I have to admit I don't see any real signs of reincarnation either. People could pass their "spirit" through a lineage (Elijah passes his mojo onto Elisha and Elisha got a double-portion because he saw Elijah go...otherwise he'd have gotten a regular helping) and on down the "spirit" went until it wound up in old John the Baptist. This was the same trickery used by kings and high priests to preserve their special lineages. John was "special." This made jesus "special" too...if you buy into this crap.

 

The story in John 9 is the story of a "loving" deity...if your idea of "love" is "evil." The man was made to be blind for his entire life (to that point) simply so jesus could walk by and perform a magic trick. He was a pawn in a game. The context of the verses says that others were inflicted with blindness for things that they did, or for things their parents had done (a shitty justification) but not this poor guy. He was innocent as were his parents. He was simply there because he could be used as an example. "God" couldn't simply use an already blind person that "deserved" it but blinded an innocent, making his life difficult, so he could "cure" him later. If that's your idea of "love" then I want none of it. This passage shows the true character (or lack thereof) of your "god."

 

mwc

[Kratos]

MWC,

 

If this kind of venom is the typical way that you welcome those who you have just met when they try to truthfully answer the questions posed, I do not think that you have anything on God in the love department regardless of how you see Him to be.

 

Unfortunately, your assumptions about God have been formed through your contact with Christian religion and not by knowing Him as He is, so I sure can excuse your rude behavior. I would probably be rude to strangers who identified with the God that you think you know, also.

 

Not that it will do any good, but you are wrong about what the majority of the church fathers believed concerning Hell and the perfection of all. By the second century, there were 6 schools of theology training ministers and 5 out of 6 believed in the ultimate salvation of all. The only one that disagreed was the school in Rome that had been heavily influenced by Roman mythology of an eternal place of torment. Unfortunately, when the Emperor Constatine declared an alliance with the Roman Church, they used their military and political might to stomp out all opposition. In fact. Origen is considered the Father of Theology and he was a devout believer in the salvation of all.

 

As far as the Lake of Fire, you miss the whole point of the Book of Revelation (which is the only place in the Bible that it is mentioned). The first verse declares that it is the revealing of Jesus Christ as it was given unto Him by the Father and given to us in signs or symbols by an angel. Those who ignore what this mysterious book says about itself, come to the wrong conclusion that it is about the future and should be taken litterally. No one thinks there is a literal Lamb sitting on a throne or that 4 literal horses come to bring plagues or 7 literal vials are poured out etc. But everyone thinks that a literal beast comes out of the sea and that the Lake of Fire is a literal lake and literal fire. This is religious ignorance gone to seed.

 

There is nothing wrong with the church that Christ is the Head over, but there are all kinds of man-made and man-ruled counterfeits out there that you are probably mistakenly calling the church. John 9 is not speaking of this man specifically, but the total plan of God which includes the fall and evil and sin and sickness. Ultimately, it is all so that God will be glorified as we are all conformed to His image and likeness.

 

Take what you want and leave the rest as I am no man's teacher and can convince no one of the truth. Mystery Babylon as revealed in this same Book of Revelation as the Harlot counterfeit of the true Bride of Christ. You hate her as much as I do, but the difference is that I know she is not the Church and I know that her doctrines are not what God reveals to those who seek Him and know Him.

 

Peace,

 

Kratos

[dr_funkenstein]

My devil's advocate responses to these questions, if I were still a xian:

This might be a good topic to pin. Every Christian I have ever posed these questions to has never been able to give me a straight answer:

 

1) Which one better describes an all-loving God: a.) One that gives human beings one chance only to get it right and if you don't condemns you to an eternal hell, or b.) One that allows you multiple chances to get it right so that you can spend eternity in the best place possible?

False dichotomy. Humans are already condemned by their own choice - it is not God who punishes them, but rather they choose to walk away from Him. Besides, the doctrine of hell isn't really clear - it can be interpreted that those who die without salvation are simply destroyed.

 

2) People who speak of "hell" associate it with divine punishment, but punishment is usually used as a corrective measure. How do people suffering in an eternal hell learn their lesson? Doesn't that make hell mere torture with absolutely no point to it?

If hell does exist in the sense that you say, then it would have been a choice made by humans to live in a world without God. Since all good things come from God, then humans who reject Him are choosing to live in a world where only evil exists. But as I said earlier, it may be interpreted that those who die having rejected God simply cease to exist.

3) There are thousands of different denominations in Christianity, each thinking they have it right. All other religions think that they have it right, as well. How can you be sure that you have it right, when the odds are that you are actually wrong?

Most of the differences between denominations have more to do with style rather than substance. There are a core group of denominations that agree on a set of fundamental precepts that define Christianity.

4) Where in the Bible does Jesus say that people must worship him or pray to him? Doesn't he identify himself as the "Son of Man" who was sent by the Father?

The book of John contains many examples where Jesus equates himself with God. It is true though, that Jesus also wanted us to follow in his example. Remember, He was both 100% human and 100% divine. There is a great truth to be found within this mystery. Those of us who accept His Holy Spirit within us begin to be transformed into the divine as well.

5) Jesus himself and his disciples seem to believe in reincarnation, as evidenced in Matthew 11:10-15, Matthew 17:10-13 and John 9:1-2. Why is the word of Paul in Hebrews 9:27 taken over Jesus in Christian doctrine?

The references to John the Baptist as Elijah are clearly using metaphorical language. It means that John The Baptist is "The Elijah of his day", not that he is literally Elijah reincarnated. Just as Elijah was a prophet who preached the repentance of sins, John the Baptist carried a similar message.

 

Again just to clarify - devil's advocate

[Japedo]

MWC,

 

If this kind of venom is the typical way that you welcome those who you have just met when they try to truthfully answer the questions posed, I do not think that you have anything on God in the love department regardless of how you see Him to be.

 

Venom? Hardly, he was only asking you questions that made you uncomfortable. There was no venom involved. Stop trying to make it personal, it wasn't anything of the kind.

 

Unfortunately, your assumptions about God have been formed through your contact with Christian religion and not by knowing Him as He is, so I sure can excuse your rude behavior. I would probably be rude to strangers who identified with the God that you think you know, also.

 

Aren't you being a little judgmental here? MWC is anything but rude, He asked you direct questions of which you decided to paint as a personal attack, please point out once place in MWC's answer that makes him rude? You are the one coming across as the condescending ass. All one has to do is read the buybull to form their opinion of gawds love.

 

Having said that How the hell can you tell anyone what they know? How the hell can you know anyone's personal walk with god? How the hell can you judge anyones struggle in looking for truth, answers and so forth? I suggest you go read some of the testimonies of people here before you prove what a asshat you are. It is Oh so typical of you Holier then thou Men of God to come in here and tell us all what worthless lowly fuckups we are. Are you here to up your persecution complex? Are you here to stand in front of your fellow cult members and tell them you stared demons down and conquered? Just why are you here?

 

Once you are confronted with your own Buybull full of Holes you take the only cowards way you know and attack the person. Answer his questions pertaining to the buybull or simply leave. No one asked you here, No one is forcing you to post here. Pray and have gawd give you the answers, It appers to me that it's a rather cowardly way to get out of answering the questions to paint this as an attack against your person. No such thing happened you here on this thread. (Until probably now.. )

 

 

 

As far as the Lake of Fire, you miss the whole point of the Book of Revelation (which is the only place in the Bible that it is mentioned). The first verse declares that it is the revealing of Jesus Christ as it was given unto Him by the Father and given to us in signs or symbols by an angel. Those who ignore what this mysterious book says about itself, come to the wrong conclusion that it is about the future and should be taken litterally. No one thinks there is a literal Lamb sitting on a throne or that 4 literal horses come to bring plagues or 7 literal vials are poured out etc. But everyone thinks that a literal beast comes out of the sea and that the Lake of Fire is a literal lake and literal fire. This is religious ignorance gone to seed.

 

Oh Ye of next to nothing of buybull knowledge. Allow me to enlighten you. Outside of the book of Rev. references of Hell.

 

Luke 16:23-28 Mentions Hell.. as does 2 Pet. 2:4, as does Mat. 25:41, and 2 Thes. 1:9, don't forget Mat. 8:12;Matthew 22:13, also.. Luke 13:28, and Jude 13.

[mwc]

If this kind of venom is the typical way that you welcome those who you have just met when they try to truthfully answer the questions posed, I do not think that you have anything on God in the love department regardless of how you see Him to be.

Venom? I asked a number of questions based on your points. I went back and looked at what I wrote and about the only "venom" (using the term very loosely just so I could find something) I could find is near the end of my post where I call out the issue on John 9...not that it was directed at you specifically but rather the deity in the myth. It would have been nice if you were a bit more clear on what you meant by "venom."

 

My only intent was to engage you about your post. Any beliefs that I was going to be "loving" or that I was going to demonstrate my capability to "love" lie solely with you. Why you thought I was going to demonstrate this for you is beyond my ability to answer.

 

Unfortunately, your assumptions about God have been formed through your contact with Christian religion and not by knowing Him as He is, so I sure can excuse your rude behavior. I would probably be rude to strangers who identified with the God that you think you know, also.

I'm happy that you've decided to condescend to me. Thank you. May we continue now?

 

Not that it will do any good, but you are wrong about what the majority of the church fathers believed concerning Hell and the perfection of all. By the second century, there were 6 schools of theology training ministers and 5 out of 6 believed in the ultimate salvation of all. The only one that disagreed was the school in Rome that had been heavily influenced by Roman mythology of an eternal place of torment. Unfortunately, when the Emperor Constatine declared an alliance with the Roman Church, they used their military and political might to stomp out all opposition. In fact. Origen is considered the Father of Theology and he was a devout believer in the salvation of all.

"Not that it will do any good?" Meaning what? Oh, that's right, I'm like you. I don't listen. Here's what I said:

What does "come to perfection" mean? The resurrection? Not everyone gets to partake. The early church fathers are pretty clear on that.

Where in that quote do I once mention the word "hell?" Can you point it out? Don't rephrase this to be what you want it to be about. I said, quite specifically, "the resurrection" and to that not everyone partakes. So I don't really care about Constantine and all the rest as it is irrelevant to anything I actually said (not that I am denying it may be extremely relevant to something you may have wanted me to have said...but that's quite another thing isn't it).

 

As far as the Lake of Fire, you miss the whole point of the Book of Revelation (which is the only place in the Bible that it is mentioned). The first verse declares that it is the revealing of Jesus Christ as it was given unto Him by the Father and given to us in signs or symbols by an angel. Those who ignore what this mysterious book says about itself, come to the wrong conclusion that it is about the future and should be taken litterally. No one thinks there is a literal Lamb sitting on a throne or that 4 literal horses come to bring plagues or 7 literal vials are poured out etc. But everyone thinks that a literal beast comes out of the sea and that the Lake of Fire is a literal lake and literal fire. This is religious ignorance gone to seed.

And? What does it matter that the Lake of Fire is ONLY mentioned in this book? How does noting this make one "miss the whole point?"

 

I certainly do not believe the book is "revealed" nor do I believe the book is about the future. Does that ease your mind any?

 

The rest of the book is simply allegory/metaphor? Including the notes to the seven angels at the seven churches?

 

There is nothing wrong with the church that Christ is the Head over, but there are all kinds of man-made and man-ruled counterfeits out there that you are probably mistakenly calling the church. John 9 is not speaking of this man specifically, but the total plan of God which includes the fall and evil and sin and sickness. Ultimately, it is all so that God will be glorified as we are all conformed to His image and likeness.

So John 9 is a metaphor?

 

So the OT is something that the "prophets" wrote secret messages in that the NT authors ran pesher over and the NT authors likewise wrote secret messages so that someone like yourself could run pesher over them to reveal further hidden "knowledge?"

 

Take what you want and leave the rest as I am no man's teacher and can convince no one of the truth. Mystery Babylon as revealed in this same Book of Revelation as the Harlot counterfeit of the true Bride of Christ. You hate her as much as I do, but the difference is that I know she is not the Church and I know that her doctrines are not what God reveals to those who seek Him and know Him.

Ahhh...I'm disappointed. Reading through Revelation shows that the bride of the lamb is none other than the city of New Jerusalem. Nothing gets me hotter than a seven headed lamb humping a 1500 cubic mile clear-gold city and then living inside it with his dad. Oh yeah.

 

So there you go. No venom. Some sarcasm. More questions.

 

mwc

[Kratos]

I am sorry if my idea of polite conversation is different than yours. I work every day with the public and with strangers asking questions. I would get fired the first day for communicating as you do here. It seems that some have a hatred of religion and Christianity and think that this makes the need for common courtesy not an issue. I just wonder if you talk this way to strangers that you meet on the street or in your chosen professions? If so, then I am the one who is wrong and I just live among different citizens of the world.

 

I have no problem answering any questions, but if you are offended by anyone calling themselves a Christian out of the gate, what is the purpose of this section of the forum?

 

Kratos

[Grandpa Harley]

That's called 'customers'.

 

Here, you're just another crazy apeshit Christian who, rather like the persistent wino, has dragged them selves in, stinking of urine and cheap booze to peddle their version of insanity... sufferance at best.

 

So, with due respect, get the stick from up your arse or fuck off... and if that's too direct for you, I grew tired of flowering up mental patients with internet connections here a long time ago.

 

MWC is a very civil chap... and a genuinely nice person... more than I am... so you want to play nice?

[Ouroboros]

I am sorry if my idea of polite conversation is different than yours. I work every day with the public and with strangers asking questions. I would get fired the first day for communicating as you do here. It seems that some have a hatred of religion and Christianity and think that this makes the need for common courtesy not an issue. I just wonder if you talk this way to strangers that you meet on the street or in your chosen professions? If so, then I am the one who is wrong and I just live among different citizens of the world.

 

I have no problem answering any questions, but if you are offended by anyone calling themselves a Christian out of the gate, what is the purpose of this section of the forum?

 

Kratos

Can you point to or give the number to the particular post and what phrase you got so upset over?

[Kratos]

Nevermind, just not used to such language and agression. I guess I spend too much time with Christians. Carry on.

[Ouroboros]

Nevermind, just not used to such language and agression. I guess I spend too much time with Christians. Carry on.

No, I want to know, I do mind. Because I want to see if the language was misguided or if it was warranted or if you just threw that out there to satisfy your own opinions? Did you say it only to vilify us to justify your wish for us to be "evil" or did you really have a case? Maybe you just misunderstood, but then maybe you should give the other party a chance to explain? But after all, maybe that's not what you want...

 

The reason why the language might be different on this website is because the people you have here aren't allowed to participate in the "nice" Christian websites. Welcome to the Underworld. If you don't fit in, well then why did you walk through the door?

 

Maybe you should learn that the world does NOT circle around you and your wishes. The World is NOT made to fit your needs. If you come here and want us to behave according to your demands, then you'll be kicked out faster than you can say Kratos. Capice?

[Grandpa Harley]

Pansy.

[Ouroboros]

Pansy.

Did you know that Pansy is a symbol for freethought? Is that what you were thinking of?

[Grandpa Harley]

Quite possibly... I think it's time...