To All Of God's Critics

[Thumbelina]

 

This causes joy unspeakable in the universe, i.e. when God's character is reflected.

Then he sends the majority to hell forever. More character reflection.

 

 

It's not forever, their eventual non existence will be forever. That's why I'm scared for the lemmings, I like them; many are kinda straightforward which is a quality I like

[TrueFreedom]

 

 

This causes joy unspeakable in the universe, i.e. when God's character is reflected.

Then he sends the majority to hell forever. More character reflection.

 

 

It's not forever, their eventual non existence will be forever. That's why I'm scared for the lemmings, I like them; many are kinda straightforward which is a quality I like

 

You think WE're the lemmings?  Well, I'm glad that your delusion makes you happy.

[Thumbelina]

You think WE're the lemmings?

 

Yeah.

 

What's those squiggly things above your avatar?

 

 

 

 

This causes joy unspeakable in the universe, i.e. when God's character is reflected.

Then he sends the majority to hell forever. More character reflection.

 

 

It's not forever, their eventual non existence will be forever. That's why I'm scared for the lemmings, I like them; many are kinda straightforward which is a quality I like

 

You think WE're the lemmings?  Well, I'm glad that your delusion makes you happy.

[TrueFreedom]

What's those squiggly things above your avatar?

 

I would think a spiritual lemming like you would be right-brained enough to see me walking like an Egyptian.

[Thumbelina]

What's those squiggly things above your avatar?

 

TrueFreedom: I would think a spiritual lemming like you would be right-brained enough to see me walking like an Egyptian.

 

 

 

I already know you're walking like an Egyptian. Symbolically Egypt represents atheism.

Thanks for telling me though

[Thumbelina]

 

 

 

 

 

Here's a challenge to all of God's critics. If you were God and you had to create beings:

 

1.Will the beings you create be equal to you or less powerful?

2.What degree of free will will you allow to those beings?

3.How will you prevent those beings from hurting you, each other and their creation?

4.What will you do with those beings who break your rules?

 

Fun

 

1. More powerful

2. Complete free will

3. Not (would contradict with free will)

4. None (would contradict with free will)

 

 

 

1. More powerful ---- Can't happen, they need to be self existent.

2. Complete free will ---- You mean complete autonomy and not just a freedom to choose to obey or not, right?

3. Not (would contradict with free will) ---- You won't mind mayhem occurring? (Yeah, I know Mayhem is cute but ...)

4. None (would contradict with free will) --- So total anarchy for you?

 

1. Something does not need to be self existent to be more powerfull (that is if self existent even exists). Humans are capable of creating things more powerfull then themselfs.

2. Nope i mean free will... to do what ever they want, wish includes breaking all laws (gravity, phisics etc). Same free will humans have right now.

3. Not at all, freedom is worth it.. and a god who would realy love its creation would agree.

4. Yep, still beats hell if you ask me.

 

 

 

 

 

1. In the mortal sphere that is true but if a being is inherently immortal, does not have derived life, then ANY created being cannot equal or surpass it. That only happens in myths like Greek mythologies.

 

2. Created beings cannot have COMPLETE autonomy as they are not all knowing and they have the ability to hurt other creatures. God does not let sin and evil go unchecked, He steps in sometimes to curb it. Glad you ain't God, bro, otherwise under your rulership this planet will go kablooey. My bible says God will destroy those who destroy the earth, that means He has RULES! When a person breaks them there will be consequences.

 

3. Would you actually want this planet or the universe to be run like the the Okay Corral? To have what evolution actually suggests, 'survival of the fittest'? My cousin got shot this year and I had another one that got shot the year before, they survived but MANY others don't. Every year they start by counting how many murders for 2011, 2012, 2013. The people tend to LOVE revelry and some up the ante by getting pleasure in killing others (too much dang TV and video games and no God or even good principles as the civil government is failing). The police are completely crappy so many violent people get away with their crimes until another more violent person gets them and when they can't get them they kill their relatives or spouses or lovers. I know your way sucks from an intellectual perspective and from personal experiences. People were slandering me recently and in civil society they did not break any rules but in God's Holy court they are guilty.

 

4. Have you seen hell or been there? Do you understand what it will entail?

 

If you compare what i said to your bible god, why is he any better?

I dont send people to hell, i dont let plagues loos on people, i dont smite people when they dont obey me, i dont instruct people to sacrifice there children to me, i dont rape maria, i dont send people on crusades, i dont force people to love me, i dont give people sin and then murder my child to take it away, i dont commit mas genocide and i dont hate gays.

 

I know the world is sick and fact is your god is not doing anything about it. Sure he will send the people to hell when they die. But how is this helping again?

 

I know you cant understand why people do these things. But there is a good explanation for it. All people live in there one little illusion, and some times people have a way of justifying these actions in there illusion making them "oke" things to do (unfortunatly to often in the name of god).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How come you did not ask me why I said mayhem is cute?

 

God is better as He actually is omniscient, He sees the beginning from the end. God does not send people to hell, they CHOOSE their fate by not getting on the Ark, as it were. Calamity is a consequence of sin but for God's children, afflictions will be paltry compared to the life God has for them. God had a purpose in telling Abraham what He did, He did not plan on following through with it. God does not rape or command it (He even allowed us to sin instead of forcing us to love Him). God's ideal is for us to live peaceably with each other but with sin around, it won't happen so He makes do with what He's got, people have choices, you know. God cannot lie, He does not force people to go against His own will just to punish them; they CHOOSE to disobey. God had/has to curb some of the evil otherwise we would've/would go extinct. God loves gays.

 

 

God is entreating us to come to Him. He's working in my life and I am slow but He puts up with me. Hell will be the final cleansing of sin, calamity and death from the universe.

 

 

 

 

 

I know you cant understand why people do these things. But there is a good explanation for it. All people live in there one little illusion, and some times people have a way of justifying these actions in there illusion making them "oke" things to do (unfortunately to often in the name of god).

 

 

 

 

We agree, sin tends to make people delusional and many do their vile deeds in the name of God (see Ez 22:28) , even Hitler tried that. I think I might have been scammed by a purported company whose owners believe in Christ. They tried to avoid me when I wanted the situation rectified. This week I had to get the credit card company after them; I'll see what happens.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

This causes joy unspeakable in the universe, i.e. when God's character is reflected.

Then he sends the majority to hell forever. More character reflection.

 

 

It's not forever, their eventual non existence will be forever. That's why I'm scared for the lemmings, I like them; many are kinda straightforward which is a quality I like

 

Not forever. 

 

Just an Age (thousands upon thousands of years) of this...

 

http://tvcontinental.tv/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Bulgarian-self-immolation-398x243.jpg

[creative]

How come you did not ask me why I said mayhem is cute?

 

God is better as He actually is omniscient, He sees the beginning from the end. God does not send people to hell, they CHOOSE their fate by not getting on the Ark, as it were. Calamity is a consequence of sin but for God's children, afflictions will be paltry compared to the life God has for them. God had a purpose in telling Abraham what He did, He did not plan on following through with it. God does not rape or command it (He even allowed us to sin instead of forcing us to love Him). God's ideal is for us to live peaceably with each other but with sin around, it won't happen so He makes do with what He's got, people have choices, you know. God cannot lie, He does not force people to go against His own will just to punish them; they CHOOSE to disobey. God had/has to curb some of the evil otherwise we would've/would go extinct. God loves gays.

 

 

God is entreating us to come to Him. He's working in my life and I am slow but He puts up with me. Hell will be the final cleansing of sin, calamity and death from the universe.

 

I know you cant understand why people do these things. But there is a good explanation for it. All people live in there one little illusion, and some times people have a way of justifying these actions in there illusion making them "oke" things to do (unfortunately to often in the name of god).

 

We agree, sin tends to make people delusional and many do their vile deeds in the name of God (see Ez 22:28) , even Hitler tried that. I think I might have been scammed by a purported company whose owners believe in Christ. They tried to avoid me when I wanted the situation rectified. This week I had to get the credit card company after them; I'll see what happens.

 

I assumed you where being sarcastic and that's why i didn't ask.

 

I guess the hell part is kind of like in school, if you didnt behave in class then they would send you to the principals office. (the teacher being god and the principals office hell) Not behaving in class is your own choice. So in that way its your own fault in getting send to the principals office.

However you are forced to go to school and are forced to suffer the consequences if you dont obey. Its not like we can choose to liv in sin and not go to hell.

 

What doesnt make any sence do is that if god sees everything from beginning to end, then why did he create hell, Satan or me?

If he realy sees everything from the beginning to the end he is literally creating people to send them to hell.

 

I know i went a little far on the rape part, that was more sarcasm, but there are plenty of horrible things god did.

I know god is all mighty and hes the best most loving being that exist. Really? I mean how many people have suffered under the wrath of god?

Did Satan deserve hell? The only thing he did wrong was not bow down before god.

 

I dont agree with "We agree, sin tends to make people delusional and many do their vile deeds in the name of God"

unless you change the sentence to "delusional people and many do their vile deeds in the name of God"

Or if you flip the coin "Religion tends to make people delusional and many do their vile deeds in the name of God"

 

A other thing that might be hard to understand is number 6 Thou shalt not kill

Since this rule doesn't apply to god. (hese a realy bad role model on this one)

 

On the gay subject. If god doesnt hate gays how are we to understand the story of Sodom and Gomorrah?

[TrueFreedom]

 already know you're walking like an Egyptian. Symbolically Egypt represents atheism.

Thanks for telling me though

 

Where did you come up with Egypt representing atheism?  They practiced polytheism and monotheism long before the Jews did.  Egypt is still monotheistic.

[raoul]

I'm gonna turn off the new message indicator - this has gone far too long and the cultist is merely spouting the nursery rhymn bullshit which all of us already know about.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 already know you're walking like an Egyptian. Symbolically Egypt represents atheism.

Thanks for telling me though

 

Where did you come up with Egypt representing atheism?  They practiced polytheism and monotheism long before the Jews did.  Egypt is still monotheistic.

 

Exactly TF!

 

Here are the FACTS that confirm what you write.

 

Ancient Egyptian polytheism... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_pantheon

Ancient Egyptian monotheism... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten

Modern Egyptian monotheism... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah

 

But let's not forget that Thumby has totally insulated herself from the facts and from reality. 

That way she can ascribe any kind of symbolic meaning to anything and nobody can call her out on it.

 

Which is how and why she's always right about everything and we're always wrong.

Which explains why she calls us spiritually blind, but she sees it all perfectly.

Which also explains why she looks down on our hoplessly unspiritual and blinkered attention to the facts and to the evidence...

 

...when we should do as she does and treat only the BIble as truth - regardless of any contradictory facts and evidence!

 

 

BAA.

[Ravenstar]

There is no care or love in her posts... they actually make me physically ill - I am repelled, and nauseous.

 

It's pure unadulterated hate, narcissism and elitism covered with 'courtesy' and sickly-sweet syrup. It's like (?) talking to a mentally ill person.. the 'words' are 'right' but the subtext is all wrong.. and the misunderstanding of what people say when they reply or query... nope, BAA is dead right - she is dangerous. Cognitive distortions, gaslighting, projection and splitting all over the place, couched in religious twaddle. (IMHO) Here is someone who does not have any comprehension of empathy or real love - which fully explains her identification with her monstrous deity and her inability to see the cruelty and sadism of her (very subjective) belief system. A wolf in sheep's clothing. I feel sorry for anyone in her sphere.

 

Reminds me of Scott M. Pecks book, "The People of the Lie".

 

I've never had that kind of and as strong a reaction to a poster before... interesting. (I HAVE had it when faced with a malignant narcissist though)

 

I fully support keeping her here in the Den - our newer members are far too vulnerable.

[florduh]

Mud wrestling takes a toll on even the best Christian. Luv ya, thumby!

[TrueFreedom]

Reminds me of Scott M. Pecks book, "The People of the Lie".

 

I read that book.  It's about truly evil people whom God created specifically for the day of destruction.

 

Is that true of you, Thumby?

[midniterider]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sometimes it's "that still small voice", sometimes it's through a pastor's sermon, sometimes it's through religious programming, many times it's through His Word but it has happened dozens and dozens of times. Just when I need Him most, He's there. One time I ignored the voice and I messed up. He helped me fix it, He told me what to do. Another time I ignored the voice and He literally did not let me do what I was going to do. I tried to do it anyway but He stopped me.

 

So much for free will. :-)

 

 

 

 

 

Read the context of this thread, midnight, CONTEXT. We are talking about creating the original creatures. It is evident that you do not understand biblical themes, sub themes and interlocking doctrines that make the bible cohesive.

 

Heh, heh, I had a miniature Balaam experience.

 

 You were talking about original creatures? I thought you were talking about god taking away your free will to do something against his wishes. He literally did not let you do something i.e. free will denied. Boom!

 

 

If you read the bible like you read these posts then I can see WHY you are an exChristian. You're helter skelter; have you been hangin' with Heretic?

 

Avoid my comment about free will and redirect to ADHD. I'll have to deduct points for that. :-)

 

 

 

 

I did not avoid it, in CONTEXT, a HYPOTHETICAL question was asked and it was about me being God and creating creatures ORIGINALLY and NOT about the current effects of sin (this is what obsessive atheistic types rely on to criticize God) but of having a game plan for potential problems.

 

 

Free will in the Christian sphere entails worshiping God or NOT. Adam & Eve did not worship God with their whole heart and thus they disobeyed Him; they were ungrateful and that caused them to CHOOSE to sin and thus the consequences of sin.

 

This was the convo':

 

 

boftx 05:02 PM said: Thumbelina, I have a challenge for you. Suppose you are God. What benefit do you derive from a creation that has free will?

 

Thumbelina said: What do you mean by free will? There are differing views out there.

 

boftx said: Use any definition you wish, it doesn't matter which one within the scope of this question.

 

 

Thumbelina said: Free will as in the ability to choose right AND wrong. Doing so gives creatures the ability to freely love me without me manipulating them.

 

 

Hellllo, Midnight, I was the hypothetical god in those posts but you did the typical atheistic pastime of mixing any and every situation to "discredit God". You took other questions from other posters and blended it with the above posts. As I said, I can see why many skeptics don't see the gospel, they use these methodologies all the time and that includes those evilbible, SAB etc. people too. They read NOT to learn but to support their biases.

 

Further deflection/avoidance of my question: Minus 1 more point. :-)

 

Not that you are required by law to answer any of my questions. But since you wont, lets move on over to the next topic. Post blending and how it prevents seeing the gospel. There's nothing special about 'the gospel.' It is a collection of written works. You can take it, you can leave it. You can program yourself (by praying) to be a believer and also unprogram yourself using rational thought or just ignoring it. Nothing mystical or supernatural about it. It is completely up to the individual, about the individual, by the individual. :-)

 

Oh, and Hellllllllo Thumbelina, this is an Ex-Christian website you're hanging out on. Of course we try to discredit god...or more precisely we discredit Christianity and the bible.

 

Also thank you for continuing to mention for the newbies:

 

SAB - http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/links.html

Evilbible - evilbible.com

 

I also like godisimaginary.com

[bornagainathiest]

There is no care or love in her posts... they actually make me physically ill - I am repelled, and nauseous.

 

It's pure unadulterated hate, narcissism and elitism covered with 'courtesy' and sickly-sweet syrup. It's like (?) talking to a mentally ill person.. the 'words' are 'right' but the subtext is all wrong.. and the misunderstanding of what people say when they reply or query... nope, BAA is dead right - she is dangerous. Cognitive distortions, gaslighting, projection and splitting all over the place, couched in religious twaddle. (IMHO) Here is someone who does not have any comprehension of empathy or real love - which fully explains her identification with her monstrous deity and her inability to see the cruelty and sadism of her (very subjective) belief system. A wolf in sheep's clothing. I feel sorry for anyone in her sphere.

 

Reminds me of Scott M. Pecks book, "The People of the Lie".

 

I've never had that kind of and as strong a reaction to a poster before... interesting. (I HAVE had it when faced with a malignant narcissist though)

 

I fully support keeping her here in the Den - our newer members are far too vulnerable.

 

But what else has she got in her life, Ravenstar?

 

Being shy and introverted, the idea of actually going out and forming healthy relationships with real people always yields to staying at home with the Bible, religious books and religious websites.

 

Being right about God (in her own mind) is the only way she can exercise power over others and make herself feel good.  That explains why she so desperately wants to play teacher all the time and lord her knowledge of scripture over us all.  We aren't just her pupils... we're her audience.

 

Sad, huh?

 

BAA

[Ravenstar]

Yes, it is. Very sad.

 

 

 

 

The "People of the Lie" has nothing to do with the end times... it's a case study of malignant narcissists/garden variety sociopaths - those who are bereft of conscience. Dr. Peck throws in some woo at the end, as he sees it through a religious filter - but his study is still fascinating and there's some very pertinent observations that are spot on.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

Thumbelina: Thank you for acknowledging that you are not all knowing ; neither am I, therefore I rely on the biblical explanations for the problem of evil (calamity and sin) and for the solutions for said problem and the more I know, the more I realize there's more to know and it's marveloooous!

 

Well that's good for you that you have an explanation to rely on for the problem of evil and the solution to it. Obviously I don't see it as the explanation of a god, but of men putting words in a god's mouth, but that's not really important.

 

 

1. The beings I create will be equally as powerful as I am. If I was an all-powerful god, I could easily make it work.

1) How will that be possible? The bible says that only God hath immortality, it says God (as fully God, not the God-man blend) cannot die. By using deductive reasoning one can see that a created being is not innately immortal and can NEVER be as powerful as an uncreated God. The bible also said that God is unique, there is [and won't be] none like Him.

 

I don't know how it could be possible because I'm not all-powerful or all-knowing, but I would think that a god that knows everything and can do anything and everything could easily make his creations just as powerful as he was. The way you say "can NEVER be" makes it seem as though this would be impossible for an all-powerful god to do. I don't know if that is what you meant or not.

 

 

2. If I was God, evil would simply not exist, whatsoever, but free will would still be possible within the parameters of my creation. So this means my creations could choose to worship me or not to worship me. They could choose what they want to do with their life, who their friends are, all of those things, without me ever interfering with their lives where I am not needed or wanted and without me forcing them to do exactly what I want them to do, with the exception of not being able to choose to do evil.

2) You contradicted yourself. You would let them choose to worship you or not but then you won't let them choose to do evil? I think as a God you don't even know what doing evil is. Hello! God's know good and evil.
I've had people doing evil to me and they did not physically touch me or steal my property but they did try to malign me in an almost covert way but some of their body language, actions and tone of voice gave them away. It disturbed me for months! It's not easy knowing you are innocent and someone wants to slander you. I personally UNDERSTAND what God went through and still goes through but my situation was picayune compared to His.

 

No I did not contradict myself. I said I would make it impossible for any of my creations to choose to do evil, but would give them the ability to choose to worship me or not. The reason this is not a contradiction is because if I was a god that was perfect, I wouldn't need to be worshiped and if I was not worshiped, that wouldn't matter at all. If I was a god and did create things, I wouldn't be doing it because I was lonely and needed something other than myself to tell me how great I am. I would be doing it for the enjoyment of creating. Considering your god's extreme reactions to people not worshiping, it makes me wonder, "If he is real, why did he create? Was it because he enjoyed creating or was it because he was sooo narcissistic that he needed something else to tell him how great he is?" 

 

 

3.By not allowing evil to exist, my creations would certainly not be able to hurt each other or me, but at the same time, even if it was possible for my creations to hurt each other, they probably would not be able to hurt me, because, to be honest, if they had the ability to hurt each other, I would have no choice other than to make them less powerful than me so they could not hurt me.

3) You're funny.
Where there is NO choice, there is NO love. God does not do shotgun weddings. All creatures had/have the CHOICE to choose to sin or transgress God's moral law. Do you think hurting someone entails only physical harm?
What about slandering etc., is that OK; do people get emotionally hurt by those acts? What about mental cruelty? Have you ever had the misfortune to be around a narcissistic type of person? A selfish human who is "never wrong"? I have, and they made me HATE godlessness and to understand that we NEED rules/commandments to prevent such damned mental abuse.

 

I must ask you this, how could there be love if your god automatically programs all humans to sin, simply because the first 2 learned what sin was? He basically programs all humans with a desire to sin that requires his help in order for them to be able to resist this sin. How is there love in setting up his creations to fail? The way I see it, making your humans robots that can't do wrong is probably better than setting up all of your creations to fail and torturing those who failed forever. Besides, I didn't say there would be no choice whatsoever, about anything. I only said when it comes to evil, but when it comes to choosing who to love and who not to love, there would be a choice there. It's very simple really. The narcissistic "godless" person is basically just like your god. I have never really had the misfortune to be around a narcissistic person, but I have had the misfortune to be indoctrinated into believing in a god that was not only narcissistic, but also incredibly sadistic. That god would be yours.

 

 

4. With there being no evil and no need for rules, there would be nothing to do to those who broke the rules if there were no rules to break. The way I see it, my response to your challenge shows that I could easily do better than your god, if he really did exist and I was also a god and we were participating in a "God Competition" using different planets. I am going to explain why I think this way.

4) Are you saying you would force one of your most beautiful beings from becoming narcissistic instead of just trying to appeal to their reason? You'll turn him into a zombie puppet?
The loving attitude that following the rules (not bearing false witness, no coveting, no stealing etc.) entailed/s, came naturally to created beings. When one of them took their eyes off of God and focused on themself that's when they would have understood the laws more and yet they STILL had a CHOICE to obey or not and they chose not.The law was/is not grievous, it sets parameters. The effects of transgression was embodied on the cross; that is where sin is fully understood and why we NEED rules.

 

They would certainly be better off as zombie puppets than victims of eternal torment that never ends, regardless of what their sins were. Unless a being unjustly tortures another being forever, they do not deserve to be torture forever. Simple as that.

 

Of course, when you describe them as being a zombie puppet, it makes me think about rethinking this. I certainly wouldn't want my creations to be zombie puppets, whether or not that is better than unjustly punishing them far beyond what they truly deserve for doing something evil.

 

 

2. He gave only one species free will, but in some cases, has actually forced people to make decisions or actions that would result in them being punished in some severe way. At the moment, the only instance I know of is when he hardened the Pharaoh's heart many times, forcing him to refuse to let the Hebrew slaves go. The problems here is, he gave his creations, the angels and the humans, free will, but forced the other creatures, mainly all of the animals on the Earth, to suffer the consequences of any bad decisions made by the angels and/or humans, resulting in the animals being punished for the sins of the humans and/or angels. I mean, the animals don't even have the free will to choose to sin, but yet they are punished for sins they did not commit or choose to commit. What kind of monstrous god would be responsible for such a terrible system as this? My guess would be a very imperfect and in some cases, sadistic, god.

 

2) No other creature on this earth is sentient, they cannot be compared with humans.
Adam had dominion over this planet but he chose to relinquish it and all creation has had to suffer along with him/us (eg see Ps 8:6) Picture man dying but no animals dying, the animals would've ruled over man lol 'Sit Adam sit!' ('sit crazyguy123 sit', how'd ya like that, huh?) the dog would've put Adam on a leash lol. That was NOT God's plan; God is MINDFUL of us, you know.

As an aside, I feel a sort of deja vu as you said the above statements. You seem sort of familiar.
God does not force people to worship Him or not worship Him. He knocks on every heart's door -through the Holy Spirit- and sometimes He does extra by displaying His power (like the situation with Pharaoh) and it is up to the individual to CHOOSE to harden their heart (like Pharaoh) or not when God appeals to them and sometimes by showing them His might.

 

I just skipped right to this because I didn't really have anything to say about how your god dealt with # 1. Now to reply to this: Animals other than humans have brains that function differently, but that does not mean it's impossible to compare animals with humans in all areas. Animals other than humans do actually have a functioning brain, even if it does function differently than the brain of a humans. But here is the problem: If Adam was given dominion over the animals, then he obviously "relinquish" it, which proved that he obviously couldn't handle the job he was given. That still does not mean that the other animals should be forced to suffer for the actions of Adam and Eve. You see, your god made every animal other than humans the "zombie puppets" and forced them to suffer when the more sentient ones screwed up. The way I see it, your god is still a sadist. If the animals could not choose to sin, they do not deserve to be punished for sin. It's as simple as that.

 

I see you do have a point though, your god technically doesn't force anyone to worship him. It's not like he goes over all the people and just keeps torturing them and torturing them screaming, "WORSHIP ME!" I mean, with his way, you at least do have some choice. He "knocks on every heart's door" but when a person answers, they see the barrel of a big gun pointed at their face and then your god calmly says, "Ok, I want to be in a relationship with you and I want you to love me forever, but just so you know, if you don't love me forever, I'll put a big ol' hole in your face." Then he smiles and says, "The choice is yours!" 

 

But in the case of Pharoah, your god did harden his heart. The Pharoah didn't harden his own heart himself. The big puppet master in the sky did it, just so he could flex his punishing muscles and show the Pharoah and all of the other Egyptians how good he was at causing suffering.

 

 

3. He really doesn't do much to prevent his creations from hurting each other or himself. Usually he just punishes afterwards, no prevention whatsoever. In fact, he has actually been responsible for his creations hurting each other. It seems the only way your god can be hurt by his creations is when his creations decide not to massage his big ego. It makes me wonder, was he eternally cursed with a big ego by something other than himself, or did he just one day, out of the blue of eternity, decide to be a dick? Since I don't believe he is real, I think humans made him a dick, but if I believed he was real, I would drive myself insane thinking about why he was a dick.

 

 

3) Your snark is duly noted If humans made up God, He'd be like those fickle and immoral God's of Greek & Hindu mythologies or like the god you think He is. He'd be just like us but with great power. You know not of what you speak. There were/are rules of engagement. He told Adam and Eve not to eat of that particular tree or they shall surely die. The OT is replete with warning after warning of impending judgment. God cared for the evil place of Las Vegas Nineveh.
God's law is as eternal as Himself. Perhaps His laws were stated more in the affirmative before sin occurred and He said more do's than don'ts but He had laws or moral principles. Have you considered that by God giving us children to raise, we can then identify with Him? Let parents raise children without setting boundaries and see what happens in homes and society at large.

 

I don't know, your god is pretty fickle... He might not be the same style of immoral as some of the other man-made gods, but he's pretty immoral. Most decent parents who do have kids to raise actually can't identify with your god at all. You see, your god is a terrible parent. He repeatedly punishes some of his children for the actions of his other children. He punishes them with punishments far beyond what they deserve. Most decent human parents who absolutely love their kids, do give them rules and guidelines to live by so they can grow up to be contributing members of society. Those same parents I describe would also be absolutely disgusted with your god's style of parenting, with the exception of the decent human parents who are Christians. The Christian parents would make excuses for their god and ignore his terrible parenting because of a need to believe that he is good. The reason for this need is their fear of what he might do to them if they doubt. I mean, roasting his kids in a fire for doubting his love and thinking he's a sadist when he very often gives them a reason to think he is a sadist, seems like bad parenting to me...

 

Have you ever heard of Divine Pathos? God is Holy and therefore feels pain as it were, and He does get hurt when we sin but He is selfless and risks pain so His creatures can freely love Him.
This is implied in Habakkuk 1:13 You are of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look upon iniquity (grievance) ...

 

I don't think I have heard of the Divine Pathos. I don't really agree with the belief that your god is selfless, but if believing that helps you sleep at night, then that's good (the reason I say that is because not being able to sleep from a fear of Hell when you have doubts can be a real thorn in the side).

 

 

Lol, you have a sadistic streak? You think that it's ideal to have?
*speaking in a gentle voice* This critique is meant to be constructive. Your rant is symptomatic of one who is uninformed, of one who did not and does not know how to do the things outlined in my signature (like read the Word in context, trace doctrines etc.) Have you ever listened to or read the words to the Christian song He is? While it certainly is not comprehensive, that song gives an overview of aspects of God's character that is showed in the various books.

Skeptics do not know about CONTEXT and they don't have an unction from the Holy Spirit, during their close-minded phases i.e., and that causes them to jump to wrong conclusions. If they open their minds the Spirit WILL teach them. As I'm going through my Christian journey and therefore trials, I can see where pain is needed to refine my character, ( I understand but I don't like it, I COMPLAIN, a lot! ) I understand why God says He cursed the earth for man's sake.

 

 

You have misrepresented what I said. Never did I say that my own sadism was a good thing. Sometimes I do enjoy my sadistic streak, but that is because I have a screwed up brain, but sometimes I hate myself for the terrible things I want to do to others and hate the thoughts I have. The only thing that I thought was ideal was the fact that I was less sadistic than your god, because I wouldn't ever torture my creations beyond what they deserve for sins. I also would never punish innocent creations for the actions of the guilty.

 

Also, I'm sure there are definitely skeptics that know about context, but quite a few would consider some of your god's actions to be terrible actions regardless of the context in which he carried out those actions. Also, we skeptics don't have an unction from the Holy Spirit because there is no such thing. I'll also tell you the truth here, even when my mind was open to Christianity and I believed in the Holy Spirit, it didn't teach me a damn thing. It just did not.

[TrueFreedom]

The "People of the Lie" has nothing to do with the end times... it's a case study of malignant narcissists/garden variety sociopaths - those who are bereft of conscience. Dr. Peck throws in some woo at the end, as he sees it through a religious filter - but his study is still fascinating and there's some very pertinent observations that are spot on.

I didn't say that it was about end times...  He got the title from a scripture mentioning people whom God created evil, only so that he could destroy them on judgement day.  His experience treating bad people convinced him of the truth of that verse.  I don't recall him saving his woo for the end. I recall ramblings on demon possession God's capacity for evil intermingled with long, less than clinical rants about his patients whom he failed to help.

[boftx]

He gets to share His creative acts with sentient beings. I see you did not answer my question about sharing with others. If a person who's not a complete scrooge is able to share their resources with others and the other people derive benefit or pleasure (clean and holy) from it, it causes happiness a joy all around.

 

Why do most men and women want children? Why do MANY women (mere women as compared to God) want to have kids before their biological clock is all ticked out?

If a couple is rich and are jet setters and really enjoy what life has to give, why would they yearn for a child? Shouldn't they just stay with each other? I mean, the earth is overpopulated as is.

 

 

God created us in His image, He is a creative genius and He created creatures that can reproduce and the higher order of creatures (humans) can be quite creative also, so creative that we can create machines or materials (not out of nothing like Him though) that can wipe us out. God loves teaching His children about Himself and not because of His purported ego as skeptics love to say but about His selfless ways. This causes joy unspeakable in the universe, i.e. when God's character is reflected.

 

Just to be clear, you are saying that God benefits from Creation by being able to share His glory with us. This implies that God has some inner drive, or need, to do so. That implies that God is incomplete if He does not do so.

 

But a perfect Being, such as God, is complete in and of Himself and has no needs. The existence of such a need indicates not only that God is incomplete, but that there is some outer cause for such a need to be present.

 

Therefore the God that created Mankind (at least) is not the Ultimate Being.

 

The same applies to God sharing His perfect justice, perfect love, perfect mercy, perfect anything with Creation. A perfect Being is self-complete. God is not self-complete, therefore God is not Perfect as God is defined by you.

 

If we are created in God's likeness, then it is not unreasonable to think that our desire to share is part of that likeness based on what you said above. Mankind shares because people receive at the very least a "warm-fuzzy" or sense of fulfillment from doing so. Since you maintain that we are created in God's likeness, one can extend that to God and say that God receives a sense of fulfillment by sharing (which is in fact exactly what you said he did.)

 

Again, if God can receive something, especially something that is intangible, then it indicates that God is not complete without it, and therefore the God you say created the Universe and Mankind along with it is not perfect, and therefore can not be the True God.

 

That is not to say that such a True God can not exist, but 'God' of the Bible is not that God.

[Thumbelina]

 

How come you did not ask me why I said mayhem is cute?

 

God is better as He actually is omniscient, He sees the beginning from the end. God does not send people to hell, they CHOOSE their fate by not getting on the Ark, as it were. Calamity is a consequence of sin but for God's children, afflictions will be paltry compared to the life God has for them. God had a purpose in telling Abraham what He did, He did not plan on following through with it. God does not rape or command it (He even allowed us to sin instead of forcing us to love Him). God's ideal is for us to live peaceably with each other but with sin around, it won't happen so He makes do with what He's got, people have choices, you know. God cannot lie, He does not force people to go against His own will just to punish them; they CHOOSE to disobey. God had/has to curb some of the evil otherwise we would've/would go extinct. God loves gays.

 

 

God is entreating us to come to Him. He's working in my life and I am slow but He puts up with me. Hell will be the final cleansing of sin, calamity and death from the universe.

 

I know you cant understand why people do these things. But there is a good explanation for it. All people live in there one little illusion, and some times people have a way of justifying these actions in there illusion making them "oke" things to do (unfortunately to often in the name of god).

 

We agree, sin tends to make people delusional and many do their vile deeds in the name of God (see Ez 22:28) , even Hitler tried that. I think I might have been scammed by a purported company whose owners believe in Christ. They tried to avoid me when I wanted the situation rectified. This week I had to get the credit card company after them; I'll see what happens.

 

I assumed you where being sarcastic and that's why i didn't ask.

 

I guess the hell part is kind of like in school, if you didnt behave in class then they would send you to the principals office. (the teacher being god and the principals office hell) Not behaving in class is your own choice. So in that way its your own fault in getting send to the principals office.

However you are forced to go to school and are forced to suffer the consequences if you dont obey. Its not like we can choose to liv in sin and not go to hell.

 

What doesnt make any sence do is that if god sees everything from beginning to end, then why did he create hell, Satan or me?

If he realy sees everything from the beginning to the end he is literally creating people to send them to hell.

 

I know i went a little far on the rape part, that was more sarcasm, but there are plenty of horrible things god did.

I know god is all mighty and hes the best most loving being that exist. Really? I mean how many people have suffered under the wrath of god?

Did Satan deserve hell? The only thing he did wrong was not bow down before god.

 

I dont agree with "We agree, sin tends to make people delusional and many do their vile deeds in the name of God"

unless you change the sentence to "delusional people and many do their vile deeds in the name of God"

Or if you flip the coin "Religion tends to make people delusional and many do their vile deeds in the name of God"

 

A other thing that might be hard to understand is number 6 Thou shalt not kill

Since this rule doesn't apply to god. (hese a realy bad role model on this one)

 

On the gay subject. If god doesnt hate gays how are we to understand the story of Sodom and Gomorrah?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: How come you did not ask me why I said mayhem is cute?

Creative said: I assumed you where being sarcastic and that's why i didn't ask.

 

Thumbelina: Nah, I actually think Mayhem is cute.

 

Creative said: I guess the hell part is kind of like in school, if you didn't behave in class then they would send you to the principals office. (the teacher being god and the principals office hell) Not behaving in class is your own choice. So in that way its your own fault in getting send to the principals office.

However you are forced to go to school and are forced to suffer the consequences if you don't obey. Its not like we can choose to live in sin and not go to hell.

 

 

Thumbelina: In your analogy hell is more like knowing there is a huge test coming, the principal gives detailed instructions and answers in advance. One also needs to have good attendance and spend quality time with the loving and just principal. As a result of CHOOSING to spend quality time with the principal ( I.e. being wise virgins) morale in the school will be wonderful, no lying, no verbal and/or physical fights, no bullying, no immorality etc. However, not choosing to spend quality time with the principal disrupts morale and it's the ones who were sincere and had a basic pattern of spending quality time with the principal that would acquire the traits of the principal and therefore pass the test. There was no student that did not have some inkling about the test to come; some were more obtuse than others but the more astute students encouraged them to go to the principal. They had some yearning for a better quality of understanding and for better emotional and/or physical health but they CHOSE to slack off (like one of the thieves on the cross). Time came for the test and they failed to graduate. True hell is more about what could have been but with an attitude of boldness, rebellion and stubbornness.

 

Please, please, please answer this, -skeptics tend to ALWAYS avoid such questions. Is it not true that emotional pain in this world tends to be more far reaching and negatively affect humans than physical pain? When a person's physical body may have healed from an assault a long time ago the psychological effects may last a lifetime, no? What about addictions? I heard that the hardest addiction to get rid of is the addiction of pornography. Whereas other physical substances can be purged out of ones system, pornographic images are basically there in ones brain forever. The torture of hell will be more mental than physical and it's the peoples unrepentant deeds that will cause their weeping and gnashing of teeth but eventually they will be obliterated I got narcissists that I love that are choosing to go there atm, I hope they get to do an about-face before it's too late.

 

 

Creative said: What doesnt make any sense do is that if god sees everything from beginning to end, then why did he create hell, Satan or me?

If he really sees everything from the beginning to the end he is literally creating people to send them to hell.

 

 

Thumbelina: Hell is God's Holy presence. Have you NEVER looked at the OT and seen what happened to unauthorized beings that came into contact with God's presence? Animals couldn't even go near the mountain where God was stationed-they died!- and even then God was shielding Himself. At the very end, when this earth is to be destroyed, God will reveal Himself fully and cause hell fire. The righteous will be able to walk in the everlasting fire (or stand in His presence) with no problem (See Isa 33:14-16; Mal 3:2). They would have applied the blood over their door posts, as it were.

 

Creative said: I know I went a little far on the rape part, that was more sarcasm, but there are plenty of horrible things god did.

I know god is all mighty and hes the best most loving being that exist. Really? I mean how many people have suffered under the wrath of god?

Did Satan deserve hell? The only thing he did wrong was not bow down before god.

 

 

Thumbelina:A Christian teaching is that hell was prepared for Satan, it was not originally prepared for man. Hell is really a judgment for those who no longer want to be in harmony and to have peace with the rest of creation. They forfeited eternal life as their immortality is contingent upon God and obedience to His perfect will.

 

 

Creative said: I don't agree with "We agree, sin tends to make people delusional and many do their vile deeds in the name of God"

unless you change the sentence to "delusional people and many do their vile deeds in the name of God"

Or if you flip the coin "Religion tends to make people delusional and many do their vile deeds in the name of God"

 

 

Thumbelina: How 'bout this?: Legalistic religion tends to make people delusional and many do their vile deeds in the name of God.

It will be quite disingenuous of you to not admit that there are some sincere religious people who want to help others and the planet. Some have spiritual fruit.

 

Creative said: A other thing that might be hard to understand is number 6 Thou shalt not kill

Since this rule doesn't apply to god. (hese a realy bad role model on this one)

 

 

Thumbelina: As a hypothetical god, how would you get rid of creatures that are stinkin' up the joint, then? Huh, huh?

 

 

Creative said:On the gay subject. If god doesnt hate gays how are we to understand the story of Sodom and Gomorrah?

 

 

Thumbelina: Sodomy and the like were just some of the sins they committed but their MAIN sins were these: Those regions had fullness of bread, abundance of all outward good things in them; there was also a lot of pride and idleness of its inhabitants. They were SELFISH, the antithesis of God's character which is a SELFLESS one.

[Thumbelina]

 

 already know you're walking like an Egyptian. Symbolically Egypt represents atheism.

Thanks for telling me though

 

Where did you come up with Egypt representing atheism?  They practiced polytheism and monotheism long before the Jews did.  Egypt is still monotheistic.

 

 

 

 

 

From the book of Revelation, it's primarily a symbolic book. I got it from Revelation 11:8. Egypt represents a haughty opposition to the Creator God, thus atheism or virtual atheism.

[Thumbelina]

Mud wrestling takes a toll on even the best Christian. Luv ya, thumby!

 

 

Hey Pops, I know you love me. Par came by bah humbuggin' too, methinks that's how he shows his love

[Thumbelina]

 

Reminds me of Scott M. Pecks book, "The People of the Lie".

 

I read that book.  It's about truly evil people whom God created specifically for the day of destruction.

 

Is that true of you, Thumby?

 

 

What are you talking about? Formulate a better question, lion?

[Thumbelina]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sometimes it's "that still small voice", sometimes it's through a pastor's sermon, sometimes it's through religious programming, many times it's through His Word but it has happened dozens and dozens of times. Just when I need Him most, He's there. One time I ignored the voice and I messed up. He helped me fix it, He told me what to do. Another time I ignored the voice and He literally did not let me do what I was going to do. I tried to do it anyway but He stopped me.

 

So much for free will. :-)

 

 

 

 

 

Read the context of this thread, midnight, CONTEXT. We are talking about creating the original creatures. It is evident that you do not understand biblical themes, sub themes and interlocking doctrines that make the bible cohesive.

 

Heh, heh, I had a miniature Balaam experience.

 

 You were talking about original creatures? I thought you were talking about god taking away your free will to do something against his wishes. He literally did not let you do something i.e. free will denied. Boom!

 

 

If you read the bible like you read these posts then I can see WHY you are an exChristian. You're helter skelter; have you been hangin' with Heretic?

 

Avoid my comment about free will and redirect to ADHD. I'll have to deduct points for that. :-)

 

 

 

 

I did not avoid it, in CONTEXT, a HYPOTHETICAL question was asked and it was about me being God and creating creatures ORIGINALLY and NOT about the current effects of sin (this is what obsessive atheistic types rely on to criticize God) but of having a game plan for potential problems.

 

 

Free will in the Christian sphere entails worshiping God or NOT. Adam & Eve did not worship God with their whole heart and thus they disobeyed Him; they were ungrateful and that caused them to CHOOSE to sin and thus the consequences of sin.

 

This was the convo':

 

 

boftx 05:02 PM said: Thumbelina, I have a challenge for you. Suppose you are God. What benefit do you derive from a creation that has free will?

 

Thumbelina said: What do you mean by free will? There are differing views out there.

 

boftx said: Use any definition you wish, it doesn't matter which one within the scope of this question.

 

 

Thumbelina said: Free will as in the ability to choose right AND wrong. Doing so gives creatures the ability to freely love me without me manipulating them.

 

 

Hellllo, Midnight, I was the hypothetical god in those posts but you did the typical atheistic pastime of mixing any and every situation to "discredit God". You took other questions from other posters and blended it with the above posts. As I said, I can see why many skeptics don't see the gospel, they use these methodologies all the time and that includes those evilbible, SAB etc. people too. They read NOT to learn but to support their biases.

 

Further deflection/avoidance of my question: Minus 1 more point. :-)

 

Not that you are required by law to answer any of my questions. But since you wont, lets move on over to the next topic. Post blending and how it prevents seeing the gospel. There's nothing special about 'the gospel.' It is a collection of written works. You can take it, you can leave it. You can program yourself (by praying) to be a believer and also unprogram yourself using rational thought or just ignoring it. Nothing mystical or supernatural about it. It is completely up to the individual, about the individual, by the individual. :-)

 

Oh, and Hellllllllo Thumbelina, this is an Ex-Christian website you're hanging out on. Of course we try to discredit god...or more precisely we discredit Christianity and the bible.

 

Also thank you for continuing to mention for the newbies:

 

SAB - http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/links.html

Evilbible - evilbible.com

 

I also like godisimaginary.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

Further deflection/avoidance of my question: Minus 1 more point. :-)

 

Not at all, you did not and do not formulate the correct questions in the right CONTEXT. You have to ask the right questions to get the right answers. Maybe I can help you out?

 

What it SEEMS you want to know is, by God preventing me from doing that particular act, was He was interfering with my free will?

Your definition of free will is this isn't it?: Free will is the ability of agents to make choices unconstrained by certain factors.

That is NOT a biblical concept. I did say a couple of times in my last couple of posts that man CANNOT have complete autonomy; I see in your eagerness to win, you overlooked that. The bible is replete with instances with God intervening to curb evil, be it from His professed people or their enemies or even nations that just went into total depravity. God can and does physically stop people but He NEVER forces them to worship Him. He did not force me to worship Him that time, at that minute but when I did come to my senses I was so glad He stopped me.

 

One time He even woke me up at 2am for weeks when I was not studying and praying and I used to go to bed at 12am. Did He violate my free will? No. In my heart I wanted to obey Him but the flesh is weak, as the song Come Thou Fount Of Every Blessing says, I'm prone to wander, prone to leave the God I love. I had the Romans chapter 7 experience. There are many themes in the bible that people who do not have the spirit just cannot grasp, it is foolish to them. Human tendency is to run from God, that's what Adam and Eve did once they sinned. I said in a prior post that there are rules of engagement. We do not seek God, He seeks us. He put a yearning in us AND He entreats us with His Spirit.

 

 

In the convo' between boftx and I, we were discussing conditions BEFORE sin. No wrong acts were committed YET so there was no need for hypothetical god (me) to physically restrain any creature.

Now AFTER sin is committed, dummy sinners had to be MORE or less restrained otherwise they would destroy themselves and each other before I can redeem them.

 

Take children for example, most of those little buggers will put anything in their mouths, go where they're not supposed to go and they practically know how to throw tantrums from the get-go. Are you saying that they should have free will (your definition) and not be restrained? *chuckle* There's this atheistic fellow that I know (of) and he said his young toddler had free will and he will not correct (restrain) the boy; he now is COMPLAINING about the kid,the boy even got put out from one daycare lol. Adult humans can reason and it's a pity God has to restrain them much as one would a toddler. God also has the civil authorities to curb evil.

 

So, freedom to choose in the Christian realm where sin EXISTS, consists of worshiping the Creator or not. He FORCED Balaam to prophecy truth but He never forced Balaam to worship Him.

 

Not that you are required by law to answer any of my questions.

 

No, not the civil laws, God can make me physically answer you even if I was not worshiping Him but nah, He did not have to twist my arm.

 

But since you wont, lets move on over to the next topic. Post blending and how it prevents seeing the gospel. There's nothing special about 'the gospel.' It is a collection of written works. You can take it, you can leave it. You can program yourself (by praying) to be a believer and also unprogram yourself using rational thought or just ignoring it. Nothing mystical or supernatural about it. It is completely up to the individual, about the individual, by the individual. :-)

 

 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can't even get these posts straight, then how the heck are you gonna be able to rightly divide the Word? That's why I said I got to tease and pray for some of you; I know some people are not interested. You have your non experiences and I have my experiences as God manifests Himself to those who obey Him and obedience comes by faith and faith comes by hearing the word of God which skeptics don't know how to interpret and they then misunderstand God.

 

Oh, and Hellllllllo Thumbelina, this is an Ex-Christian website you're hanging out on. Of course we try to discredit god...or more precisely we discredit Christianity and the bible.

 

 

Yeah, but you ain't being fair about it, you naughty lion, you!

 

Also thank you for continuing to mention for the newbies:

 

SAB - http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/links.html

Evilbible - evilbible.com

 

I also like godisimaginary.com

 

 

Yeah, newbies, people who don't have an inkling about the bible depend on those sites, I know it from experience, my crazy-as-a-fruit bat atheist stalker from another site depended heavily on those sites.

Yeah, those sites function to try to blind people from the gospel but not everyone will be fooled by them, God's word will not return void.