To All Of God's Critics

[Thumbelina]

Re post 198 in this thread:

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/47861-why-are-you-christians-so-insincere-with-your-hell-beliefs/page__st__180__p__716375#entry716375

 

 

1.Will the beings you create be equal to you or less powerful?

2.What degree of free will will you allow to those beings?

3.How will you prevent those beings from hurting you, each other and their creation?

4.What will you do with those beings who break your rules?

 

MM:

But you want to know what would I do if I was an all powerful God:

1 is less. I can't have them running around creating universes and people.

2 total. I don't need puppets.

3 I would built in a system limit so they could not hurt me. See 1

4 not possible. See 3.

 

Thumb:

1 Of course it will be less, they're CREATED.

2 You don't need puppets so you will let them do ANYTHING their heart desires?

3 I see that you are in fact making puppets. They can't hurt you but what about other created beings?

4 You are an unemotional, unfeeling god? They won't be able to make your heart ache? Love can and sometimes do hurt, you know.

[Thumbelina]

Re Post 199 in this thread: http://www.ex-christ...390#entry716390

 

Thumbelina said: ... While you're at it please answer the questions in this post: To All Of God's Critics.

 

 

Sirelien :Ok Thumbelina, I'll play. I've taken a look at the four questions you've asked at the start of that topic. I have not read any of the subsequent responses, so my own response might duplicate something already said there. But here goes. Here are your questions:

 

1.Will the beings you create be equal to you or less powerful?

2.What degree of free will will you allow to those beings?

3.How will you prevent those beings from hurting you, each other and their creation?

4.What will you do with those beings who break your rules?

 

These questions are actually quite easy to answer because I hope to be in a very similar situation later on in my life, in that I hope to have children. And the way in which I would treat my children will strongly inform the answers to 2 - 4. Now:

 

1. If I had a choice in the matter, my creations would be less powerful than me, for obvious reasons.

 

Thumb: Yes, if they are created they can't be all powerful.

 

 

Sirelien 2. The amount of free will I would give them would be proportional to their ability to use that free will responsibly. For example, I wouldn't allow my seven year old daughter to be left completely alone with an intelligent adult man who I know will do everything he can to mislead and turn her against me - in much the same way that God left Eve, a young woman with (according to the Bible) no understanding of the difference between right and wrong, completely alone at the mercy of the snake/devil.

 

So I would give my creations the maximum possible amount of free will that I know that they can reasonably handle. And hopefully as my creations grow in knowledge and intelligence and awareness of the world around them, the amount of free will that I can give them will increase.

 

Thumb: A created being CANNOT have total free will because they are unable to decide to be created or not. However, after they are created they have freedom of CHOICE, whether to OBEY their Creator or not. Eve was NOT a seven year old girl, maybe that's why God created adults and NOT babies? Would you like your daughter to go through brain surgery to ensure that she will never be disobedient to you or would you like for you to explain your rules to her and she CHOOSES not to disobey you because she UNDERSTANDS that your rules are for her benefit and the benefit of her siblings?

 

 

 

 

Sirelien 3. Simple. I would impose rules upon my creation. These rules would be clear, firm and fair. My creations would know exactly where they stand - what the rules are, and what the consequences for breaking them will be. Again, to use the children example, the one thing I would not do is abandon them with a nanny when young and write them a confused, contradictory and incoherent book about how I expect them to behave.

 

I would also emphasise that my rules would be fair. For example, I would not make one of my creations homosexual and then punish him for being homosexual.

 

Thumb: So you agree that rules are NECESSARY? Yes clear, firm and fair rules are easy to follow therefore it will be DUMB for a perfect being to disobey them, right? It will be MYSTERIOUS, no? If you tell an adult (pretend your children are adults ) with perfect brain capacity not to eat arsenic for if they eat it they will die and some magician tells them don't listen to their father, eat it and they will be just like their father (you're rich and famous btw); will it not be utterly stupid of your adult children to listen to the magician when you have been with them all along and taken care of ALL their needs?

 

Anybody can overcome inherited or learned tendencies with God's help. No, I am NOT going into that debate.

 

 

 

 

Sirelien 4. All rule breaking will be punished firmly but fairly, in a manner that is proportional to the deed committed. To use the child example one final time, if say my eight year old son punched his younger sister, I would make it quite clear to him that such behaviour is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. I might do this first by displaying controlled anger - telling him to go to his room and stay there - and then by talking to him and making understand what he's done wrong. I might also impose a punishment, such as not allowing him to watch TV for a given length of time for example. Finally, I would also require that he apologise to his sister. I would treat him with love at all stages of this process, and once the apology is given and the punishment served, I would make it clear that all is forgiven and that the matter will be forgotten from now on.

 

Needless to say, the fact that my punishments will be proportional is very important. I would not for instance put any of my creations to death for, well, any infraction, let alone a trivial one such as being rude to people (Leviticus 20:9, Kings 2:23-24). Nor would I ever consider imposing a punishment of infinite duration for a finite crime.

 

Thumb: "All rule breaking will be punished firmly but fairly, in a manner that is proportional to the deed committed." Yes, that is a biblical principle. However Jesus said to be gracious to offenders and don't retaliate and as far as possible one is to live peaceably with their fellow man.

 

If you MAKE your son apologize to his sister but he does not mean it, what good does that do? Won't he be looking for opportunities to do it again without being caught? Do you think 1/8tsp of arsenic in your oat bran will be beneficial as opposed to 1 Tbsp? Sin may seem trivial but all the mess in this world is in because two people ate forbidden fruit. Have you seen this little rhyme:

 

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.

For want of a shoe the horse was lost.

For want of a horse the rider was lost.

For want of a rider the battle was lost.

For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.

And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

 

 

Sin has a snowball effect. It shows an attitude of REBELLION.The actions are an outward manifestation of the thoughts, which is why children need to understand WHY there are rules.

 

Sirelien: "Nor would I ever consider imposing a punishment of infinite duration for a finite crime."

 

Thumb: Neither would God.

[Sirelien]

My first point would be that you can use all the capitals you like, but that won't make up for the lack of rational logic in your arguments!

 

Now:

 

 

Thumb: A created being CANNOT have total free will because they are unable to decide to be created or not. However, after they are created they have freedom of CHOICE, whether to OBEY their Creator or not. Eve was NOT a seven year old girl, maybe that's why God created adults and NOT babies? Would you like your daughter to go through brain surgery to ensure that she will never be disobedient to you or would you like for you to explain your rules to her and she CHOOSES not to disobey you because she UNDERSTANDS that your rules are for her benefit and the benefit of her siblings?

 

No, I would not want my child to go through brain surgery, and I never said I did. But that question misses the point. The simple fact is that any loving parent will restrict the free will of their child for that child's safety and protection. For example, no loving parent would allow their young child to roam unsupervised in a building site, or handle a loaded gun or (as I said before) or be alone with another human being of 'dubious' morals.

 

Yet we are supposed to believe that God, supposedly the most perfect and loving of fathers, allowed Eve, a young woman only just created, who, according to the Bible, did not understand the difference between right and wrong, to be left completely alone with the devil - a vastly more intelligent and crafty being. How on earth was Eve supposed to defend herself against his lies, given (as I will keep saying to drive this point home) she didn't even know the difference between right and wrong.

 

We would condemn any parent who left a defenceless child all alone in the company of, say, Gary Glitter. How much more then should we condemn the God of the Bible, who abandoned the defenceless Eve in the company of the most evil being in all creation!

 

 

Thumb: So you agree that rules are NECESSARY? Yes clear, firm and fair rules are easy to follow therefore it will be DUMB for a perfect being to disobey them, right? It will be MYSTERIOUS, no? If you tell an adult (pretend your children are adults ) with perfect brain capacity not to eat arsenic for if they eat it they will die and some magician tells them don't listen to their father, eat it and they will be just like their father (you're rich and famous btw); will it not be utterly stupid of your adult children to listen to the magician when you have been with them all along and taken care of ALL their needs?

 

Anybody can overcome inherited or learned tendencies with God's help. No, I am NOT going into that debate.

 

 

Of course I would agree that rules are necessary. That is not in dispute. The issue is what those rules should be and how they should be enforced. If I were God, I would not have created a Tree of Knowledge in the first place? Why did it need to be there; what purpose did it serve? Adam and Eve were not to be allowed to eat from it, and presumably neither were any of their children. So why create it in the first place? I suggest that the tree only exists as a convenient plot device to give Adam and Eve a way of disobeying God so that sin and evil could enter the world, since the whole Adam and Eve story is a work of fiction, whose purpose is to try to explain why the world is as it is to day - a role at which it performs exceedingly poorly.

 

I reiterate: if I were God, I wouldn't mess around with pointless trees and meaningless rules. I'd tell them right at the start that these are my rules: don't kill, don't steal, don't sleep around, etc etc. Why waste time doing anything else?

 

And rather than help my creations overcome inherited tendencies, I wouldn't give them those tendencies in the first place.

 

 

Thumb: "All rule breaking will be punished firmly but fairly, in a manner that is proportional to the deed committed." Yes, that is a biblical principle. However Jesus said to be gracious to offenders and don't retaliate and as far as possible one is to live peaceably with their fellow man.

 

If you MAKE your son apologize to his sister but he does not mean it, what good does that do? Won't he be looking for opportunities to do it again without being caught? Do you think 1/8tsp of arsenic in your oat bran will be beneficial as opposed to 1 Tbsp? Sin may seem trivial but all the mess in this world is in because two people ate forbidden fruit.

 

..........

 

Sirelien: "Nor would I ever consider imposing a punishment of infinite duration for a finite crime."

 

Thumb: Neither would God.

 

 

A biblical principle? Don't make me laugh! The Bible teaches very clearly that the wages of sin is death. Any sin, even the tiniest infraction, is enough to merit eternal damnation! Jesus taught that even having lustful thoughts is enough to satisfy this requirement. Indeed, Jesus may (according to standard christian theology) have taken the consequences for our actions, but that does not change the fact that those consequences still existed. I suggest to you that any God who would make any his creations suffer eternal torture simply for admiring their fellow creations is not only immoral, but flat out stupid.

 

And I'm sorry, but according to the Bible God does threaten an infinite punishment and you can't ignore it. Jesus, in Matthew 26:46 is very unambiguous:

 

'Then they [those who have been judged by God not to be righteous] will go away to eternal punishment.'

 

Unless you're arguing that Jesus, the man you claim to be God, didn't know what he was talking about, you really can't argue against that verse.

 

And incidentally, I have heard of that rhyme. I have also heard of the slippery slope fallacy, which is what your argument and that rhyme fall into.

[mymistake]

Re post 198 in this thread:

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/47861-why-are-you-christians-so-insincere-with-your-hell-beliefs/page__st__180__p__716375#entry716375

 

 

1.Will the beings you create be equal to you or less powerful?

2.What degree of free will will you allow to those beings?

3.How will you prevent those beings from hurting you, each other and their creation?

4.What will you do with those beings who break your rules?

 

MM:

But you want to know what would I do if I was an all powerful God:

1 is less. I can't have them running around creating universes and people.

2 total. I don't need puppets.

3 I would built in a system limit so they could not hurt me. See 1

4 not possible. See 3.

 

Thumb:

1 Of course it will be less, they're CREATED.

2 You don't need puppets so you will let them do ANYTHING their heart desires?

3 I see that you are in fact making puppets. They can't hurt you but what about other created beings?

4 You are an unemotional, unfeeling god? They won't be able to make your heart ache? Love can and sometimes do hurt, you know.

 

If I were all powerful then I would have to have the power to create a being that is also all powerful. So no it is not an of course. If making a created being equal is not possible in this thought experiment then your question #1 was not needed.

 

I would limit these beings. There would be things they don't have the power to do but they would still have complete free will in that they run themselves. If they don't have free will then I am the one animating them like my kids animate their Miis.

 

Maybe you don't understand what I'm talking about by puppets. If I don't have my hand inside them metaphorically then they make their own choices. If I make their choices then they are puppets. Putting limits on them is irrelevant to them being puppets. I'm not going to hook the Wii up to a random number generator and have the Miis release my personal information and creditcard accounts to the public if a certain number comes up. However they would still be puppets if I did for the Miis only do what a programer or user make them do.

 

Of course I am emotional. That is my nature. This thought experiment doesn't change my emotions but rather illustrates them. Making it not possible for my creation to break my rules in no way implies I am unfeeling or unemotional.

[bornagainathiest]

And I'm sorry, but according to the Bible God does threaten an infinite punishment and you can't ignore it. Jesus, in Matthew 25:46 is very unambiguous:

 

'Then they [those who have been judged by God not to be righteous] will go away to eternal punishment.'

 

Unless you're arguing that Jesus, the man you claim to be God, didn't know what he was talking about, you really can't argue against that verse.

 

Oh but Thumbelina can and she will, Sirelien!

 

Didn't you know that the Bible explains itself?

Thumbelina uses Malachi 4:1 - 6 to explain Matthew 25:46.

See? One passage of scripture explaining another.

Divine, isn't it?

 

Malachi 4

Judgment and Covenant Renewal

 

¹ “Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them.

² But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves.

³ Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the LORD Almighty.

⁴ “Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.

⁵ “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes.

⁶ He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”

 

You see, when Jesus said eternal, he didn't actually mean eternal eternal.

Nope. Real eternity never comes to any kind of end. It just goes on and on, without end... forever. No. What Jesus actually meant can be seen here...

 

http://concordances.org/greek/166.htm

 

See that?

The way Thumbelina can reconcile an infinite eternity of suffering in Hell (according to Jesus) with an age-long, but ultimately finite duration of punishment (according to Malachi) is to ignore the Short Definition of the word Jesus used...AIONIOS

 

Short Definition: eternal, unending

 

...and insist on using only the translation that alludes to something finite and not eternal.

 

Definition: age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.

 

There!

Now both passages are in agreement with each other and all's right with the world.

It's just a case of selecting whichever translation suits her agenda and running with that, to the exclusion of everything else. Stuff like the Bible contradicting itself or translations that throw up more questions than answers are total no-no's. Ditto uncertainty, doubt, the possibility of being wrong and other shit like that. No way! Those have to be nixed by making scripture say what she wants it to say.

 

So don't pay any attention to Wikipedia, Sirelien.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeon

 

Eternity or Age

Further information: In saecula saeculorum

The Bible translation is a treatment of the Hebrew word olam and the Greek word aion. These two words have similar meaning, and Young's Literal Translation renders them and their derivatives as “age” or “age-during”. Other English versions most often translate them to indicate eternity, being translated as eternal, everlasting, forever, etc. However, there are notable exceptions to this in all major translations, such as Matthew 28:20: “…I am with you always, to the end of the age” (NRSV), the word “age” being a translation of aion. Rendering aion to indicate eternality in this verse would result in the contradictory phrase “end of eternity”, so the question arises whether it should ever be so.^[2] Proponents of Universal Reconciliation point out that this has significant implications for the problem of hell.^[3] Contrast Matthew 25:46 in well-known English translations with its rendering in Young's Literal Translation:

And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during. (YLT)^[4]

Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. (NIV)^[5]

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (NASB)^[6]

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal. (KJV)^[7]

And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life. (NWT)^[8]

 

Got that? Any Bible version that doesn't agree with Thumbelina's "truth" is wrong, ok?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

 

p.s.

Oh and please don't apply the word aionios to mean anything BUT eternal when it's used to describe how long the saved will be in heaven.

[mymistake]

Oh BAA you are being naughty again.

 

Oh wait, that was Thumb's line.

[midniterider]

I think the problem with this thought experiment is that Thumbelina is used to thinking inside the box..errr, bible. She is expecting us to reply with 'inside the box' answers so is unable to deal with answers that are 'outside the box.' Hence her comment that an all powerful god could not create all powerful creations. Certainly an all powerful god could do whatever he wants. That's what all powerful means. Only a limited-power god might be lacking in the ability to create all powerful beings.

 

Are god's powers limited to what the bible says he is allowed to do? Does god have to follow rules? Or can god do whatever the heck he wants? If god were truly all powerful then he might be laughing right now at people reading the bible. I think it is especially interesting when someone says, "God can't...." or "God won't...."

 

How would someone know the mind of god unless...shudder...god was their imaginary friend?

[mymistake]

I think the problem with this thought experiment is that Thumbelina is used to thinking inside the box..errr, bible. She is expecting us to reply with 'inside the box' answers so is unable to deal with answers that are 'outside the box.' Hence her comment that an all powerful god could not create all powerful creations. Certainly an all powerful god could do whatever he wants. That's what all powerful means. Only a limited-power god might be lacking in the ability to create all powerful beings.

 

Are god's powers limited to what the bible says he is allowed to do? Does god have to follow rules? Or can god do whatever the heck he wants? If god were truly all powerful then he might be laughing right now at people reading the bible. I think it is especially interesting when someone says, "God can't...." or "God won't...."

 

How would someone know the mind of god unless...shudder...god was their imaginary friend?

 

She can't imagine an all powerful God who can forgive at the drop of a hat.

 

She can't imagine an all powerful God who isn't hurt by his creation making choices.

 

She can't imagine an all powerful God setting limits and abilities for the creation that match God's expectations of that creation. (For example homosexuality is possible but an abomination to God but living a sinless life would please God and is impossible)

[sdelsolray]

Here's a challenge to all of God's critics. If you were God and you had to create beings:

 

1.Will the beings you create be equal to you or less powerful?

2.What degree of free will will you allow to those beings?

3.How will you prevent those beings from hurting you, each other and their creation?

4.What will you do with those beings who break your rules?

 

 

I suppose there are numerous responses to such questions, but for starters:

 

1.Will the beings you create be equal to you or less powerful?

 

False dichotomy. The beings I create might be equally powerful (whatever "powerful" means). I don't know. I guess I would ask for consensus from those beings after I create them and adjust my creation as needed.

 

2.What degree of free will will you allow to those beings?

 

Well, this is a tough one. The more free will I give them the less omniscient I remain. Should I sacrifice my omniscience and give my created beings free will? Again, I think I'll go by consensus and ask them after they are created and I will adjust my created beings accordingly.

 

3.How will you prevent those beings from hurting you, each other and their creation?

 

I am an omnibenevolent God. None of my created beings can suffer, feel pain, hurt others, etc. But I might sacrifice my omnibenevolence and create beings that do, in fact, suffer, feel pain, etc. That might be less boring to watch (as things unfold through time - something else I created).

 

4.What will you do with those beings who break your rules?

 

What rules? I have to create rules too? What are you paying me for doing all this? Rules are for chumps.

[Thumbelina]

Well lions, another anniversary just went by for me being here and I must say I'm glad I joined your forum. I got to read about other people's experiences and to a certain extent I did understand where your skepticism came/comes from. I learned about my flaws (boy, do I ever have a lot of those) and what areas I need to change. Being here I was/am learning not to be so uptight and to laugh at myself sometimes. I am grateful that you guys made me go digging for answers and for what I have learned and still need to learn. I was also happy to get some evidence for Romans 2:14 from some folks around here. I did see some of you having some spiritual fruit, as it were, to me as well as to others and to each other. You guys put up with my teasing and even with the times when I put my foot in my mouth. Some of you were kind enough to talk to me and to patiently explain certain things to me when you could have just ignored me or cuss me out. People from this website are in my heart. Thank you, lions for the experience.

[florduh]

Thumby! You're back!!!

[par4dcourse]

Hey Thumby!

[par4dcourse]

Hey Thumby!

[duderonomy]

Well lions, another anniversary just went by for me being here and I must say I'm glad I joined your forum. I got to read about other people's experiences and to a certain extent I did understand where your skepticism came/comes from. I learned about my flaws (boy, do I ever have a lot of those) and what areas I need to change. Being here I was/am learning not to be so uptight and to laugh at myself sometimes. I am grateful that you guys made me go digging for answers and for what I have learned and still need to learn. I was also happy to get some evidence for Romans 2:14 from some folks around here. I did see some of you having some spiritual fruit, as it were, to me as well as to others and to each other. You guys put up with my teasing and even with the times when I put my foot in my mouth. Some of you were kind enough to talk to me and to patiently explain certain things to me when you could have just ignored me or cuss me out. People from this website are in my heart. Thank you, lions for the experience.

 

...and with that, the sun sinks slowly in the west as Thumbelina rides away.

[Thumbelina]

Wow, two of my favorite bah humbugs around here said something

 

 

Thumby! You're back!!!

 

 

Hello Pops! I was just checking in with you all. I don't forget you (all), you know.

[Thumbelina]

Hey Thumby!

 

 

 

 

*excited* Par!!!!!

 

Hello Par, I've been itching to bug you for awhile now; you have a strong back and seem to be able to handle some teasing.

 

Hope you're OK though

[mymistake]

[bornagainathiest]

http://indianterrorism.bravepages.com/gujarat%20pictures%205.htm

 

These people were burned to ashes by other people, Thumbelina.  That's evil.

 

Your God will do exactly the same to billions... and you say, 'God is merciful to do this'.

 

I see that you still haven't answered the question I've put to you (many times) about this... so I'll ask again.

 

How long will your 'loving' and 'just' God take to reduce sinners to ashes?

.

.

.

.

I don't expect you to answer, so here's a clue for anyone else reading this post.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeon

 

BAA.

[RipVanWinkle]

All you need to know is that I would not be cruel to my creatures nor would I send anyone to hell for eternity. Oh, what a horrible god I would be. But I repeat myself.

[Thumbelina]

All you need to know is that I would not be cruel to my creatures nor would I send anyone to hell for eternity. Oh, what a horrible god I would be. But I repeat myself.

 

If I could +1 this, I would

[midniterider]

Here's a challenge to all of God's critics. If you were God and you had to create beings:

 

1.Will the beings you create be equal to you or less powerful?

2.What degree of free will will you allow to those beings?

3.How will you prevent those beings from hurting you, each other and their creation?

4.What will you do with those beings who break your rules?

 

1. Equal

2. Complete autonomy

3. Impossible to hurt the all powerful me

4. No rules

[duderonomy]

I thought Thumbelina was done after #886. Darn! That's the second time I was wrong on this website!

 

If I were God and "had to create beings"...hmmm...

 

Why would a perfect being, complete and lacking nothing, ever need to create anything?  Doesn't Creation itself then, not show the glory of God at all as the Bible says but instead the need of God to have something that He didn't have before creation? If He was needy, doesn't that preclude Him from being all perfect and complete in and of His uncreated self?

[TheUnknown]

If I could +1 this, I would

 

All you have to do is click on the green arrow just underneath the post. Unless the feature is only available to ex-Christians. I don't know how the board would appear to an Authentic Christian Believer, or if that feature is disabled, or not. I didn't see the sex and Christianity subsection until I had made my 25th post. The edit feature also only appeared after that as well.

 

Edited to add. I've just remembered that I also couldn't give out reputation points until the ex-christians unite symbol appeared under my username either.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Here's a challenge to all of God's critics. If you were God and you had to create beings:

 

1.Will the beings you create be equal to you or less powerful?

2.What degree of free will will you allow to those beings?

3.How will you prevent those beings from hurting you, each other and their creation?

4.What will you do with those beings who break your rules?

I'd say the OP runs off the rails right at the start with the notion that God "had to" do anything. 

[raoul]

You guys put up with my teasing and even with the times when I put my foot in my mouth. Some of you were kind enough to talk to me and to patiently explain certain things to me when you could have just ignored me or cuss me out. People from this website are in my heart. Thank you, lions for the experience.

 

I don't believe we've spoken before so I'll say hello and, regarding part of your comment - nothing surprising there because these folks are the REAL deal, plain and simple. I would even go so far as to suggest that perhaps they're what Christians should behave like but I'd be insulting them so I won't. But I think you get my drift, right?