To All Of God's Critics

[bdp]

retracted.

[Crazy Donna]

 

2.What degree of free will will you allow to those beings?

 

 

Regarding free will I have a question to you: if a criminal puts a gun to your head and tells you: 'you either worship me or you will die', can that be considered as "free will"? 

 

 

Is that why you don't commit crimes because you're afraid of jail?

We don't commit crimes because we respect and love other human beings, and wish to be treated with the same love and respect.

 

Only someone who is good because they fear hell would expect others to operate on such self serving moral criteria.

 

You sicken me, Thumbelina. No amount of cloying, fake niceness can disguise the taste of your revolting morality, that believes that people deserve to burn in hell because they don't worship your vindictive god.

[Thackerie]

 

You're late in the convo; we already established that atheists are capable of doing right because humans are made in God's image.

 

WE did no such thing. It's only YOU who made that baseless, inane assertion. Bearing false witness is a big no-no among moral atheists, but apparently christians can disregard one or more of the Ten Commandments just as easily as they can ignore other parts of the Bible when it suits their purposes.

 

 

 

Sorry, women tend to think like pop-up windows. ...

 

 

You do not speak for all women, either, and I find this little comment of yours extremely offensive.

 

But I do acknowledge that at least one thumbish woman in this thread IS like some kind of window. We can see right through you, as Crazy Donna so aptly notes:

 

We don't commit crimes because we respect and love other human beings, and wish to be treated with the same love and respect.

 

Only someone who is good because they fear hell would expect others to operate on such self serving moral criteria.

 

You sicken me, Thumbelina. No amount of cloying, fake niceness can disguise the taste of your revolting morality, that believes that people deserve to burn in hell because they don't worship your vindictive god.

[Guest Spinoza]

Got any non-scriptual, empirical evidence for any of your claims, Spinoza?

 

 

The "Ethics" by Baruch Spinoza ......

 

http://www.amazon.com/Ethics-Penguin-Classics-Benedict-Spinoza/dp/0140435719/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1291741915&sr=8-1

[SoulofSilver]

Try again, "Spinoza"

[Guest Spinoza]

Try again, "Spinoza"

 

The "Ethics" by Baruch Spinoza ......

 

http://www.amazon.co...91741915&sr=8-1

[SoulofSilver]

Not quite working.

 

Perhaps you should try something else

[Guest Spinoza]

Working for what ? http://tinyurl.com/2fnvge6

[SoulofSilver]

Ok, so you have no proof. That's fine.

[Guest Spinoza]

SoulofSilver

 

Proof : The Kingdom of God (Universe) is like yeast.

 

Do you know the current model of the expanding Universe ?

[Guest Spinoza]

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/YBA/M31-velocity/hubble-meaning.html

 

First consider the small black speck at the far left of the image. Imagine that just a few moments ago this loaf of raisin bread, raisins and all, could be represented by this single dot which is a point we call a singularity. It wasn't a point in space, however......... it was space itself and inside that space were the raisins which we can imagine make up the matter known in the universe. At this initial time, however, it was very, very, small.

 

In real life as a loaf of raisin bread bakes, the yeast in the bread makes the dough rise and expand. This expansion fills some of the "void" in space around the breadpan. Our model of the bread as an expanding universe takes on a different meaning (since the Universe as we know it is not expanding into anything, such as another dimension. There is just more space itself. The expansion of the dough in our model represents the expansion of space itself and in the process the raisins, which represent the matter we find in space, move away from each other in all directions.

 

Matthew 13:33

He told them still another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into about sixty pounds of flour until it worked all through the dough.”

[Darklady]

sadly this in another example of meaningless twaddle. The parable presented here is referring to heaven as paradise/afterlife/whatever you call it, not the expending universe. What does this prove?

 

The existence of god? How?

 

There is no thought here, nothing to prove anything.I would like to see some proof of the existence of your god, tangible real and testable.

[Guest Spinoza]

sadly this in another example of meaningless twaddle. The parable presented here is referring to heaven as paradise/afterlife/whatever you call it, not the expending universe. What does this prove?

 

The existence of god? How?

 

There is no thought here, nothing to prove anything.I would like to see some proof of the existence of your god, tangible real and testable.

 

 

 

Deut 7:6-7 http://www.jinfo.org/Nobel_Prizes.html

 

6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

 

7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: (.0019 % of World Population)

http://money.cnn.com...arity/index.htm

 

 

• Albert Michelson ^#,1 (1907)
• Gabriel Lippmann ^# (1908)
• Albert Einstein ^# (1921)
• Niels Bohr ^#,2 (1922)
• James Franck ^# (1925)
• Otto Stern ^# (1943)
• Isidor Rabi ^# (1944)
• Wolfgang Pauli ³ (1945)
• Felix Bloch ^# (1952)
• Max Born ^# (1954)
• Igor Tamm ^#,4 (1958)
• Ilya Frank ⁴ (1958)
• Emilio Segrè ^# (1959)
• Donald Glaser ^# (1960)
• Robert Hofstadter ^# (1961)
• Lev Landau ^# (1962)
• Eugene Wigner ⁵ (1963)
• Richard Feynman ^# (1965)
• Julian Schwinger ^# (1965)
• Hans Bethe ^#,6 (1967)
• Murray Gell-Mann ^# (1969)
• Dennis Gabor ^# (1971)
• Leon Cooper ⁷ (1972)
• Brian Josephson ^# (1973)
• Ben Mottelson ^# (1975)
• Burton Richter ^# (1976)
• Arno Penzias ^# (1978)
• Sheldon Glashow ^# (1979)
• Steven Weinberg ^# (1979)
• Arthur Schawlow ⁸ (1981)
• K. Alexander Müller ⁹ (1987)
  
• Leon Lederman ^# (1988)
• Melvin Schwartz ^# (1988)
• Jack Steinberger ^# (1988)
• Jerome Friedman ^# (1990)
• Georges Charpak ^#,10 (1992)
• Martin Perl ^#,11 (1995)
• Frederick Reines ^#,12 (1995)
• David Lee ¹³ (1996)
• Douglas Osheroff ¹⁴ (1996)
• Claude Cohen-Tannoudji ¹⁵ (1997)
• Zhores Alferov ¹⁶ (2000)
• Vitaly Ginzburg ¹⁷ (2003)
• Alexei Abrikosov ¹⁸ (2003)
• David Gross ¹⁹ (2004)
• H. David Politzer ¹⁹ (2004)
• Roy Glauber ²⁰ (2005)

• Tobias Asser ^# (1911)
• Alfred Fried ^# (1911)
• René Cassin ^# (1968)
• Henry Kissinger ^# (1973)
• Menachem Begin ^# (1978)
• Elie Wiesel ^# (1986)
• Shimon Peres ^# (1994)
• Yitzhak Rabin ^# (1994)
• Sir Joseph Rotblat ^# (1995)
• Paul Ehrlich ^# (1908)
• Elie Metchnikoff ^#,1 (1908)
• Robert Bárány ^# (1914)
• Otto Meyerhof ^# (1922)
• Karl Landsteiner ^# (1930)
• Otto Warburg ^#,2 (1931)
• Otto Loewi ^# (1936)
• Joseph Erlanger ^# (1944)
• Herbert Gasser ^#,3 (1944)
• Sir Ernst Chain ^# (1945)
• Hermann Muller ^#,4 (1946)
• Gerty Cori ⁵ (1947)
• Tadeus Reichstein ^# (1950)
• Selman Waksman ^# (1952)
• Sir Hans Krebs ^# (1953)
• Fritz Lipmann ^# (1953)
• Joshua Lederberg ^# (1958)
• Arthur Kornberg ^# (1959)
• Konrad Bloch ^# (1964)
• Francois Jacob ^# (1965)
• André Lwoff ^# (1965)
• George Wald ^# (1967)
• Marshall Nirenberg ^# (1968)
• Salvador Luria ^# (1969)
• Julius Axelrod ^# (1970)
• Sir Bernard Katz ^# (1970)
• Gerald Edelman ^# (1972)
• David Baltimore ^# (1975)
• Howard Temin ^# (1975)
• Baruch Blumberg ^# (1976)
• Andrew Schally ⁶ (1977)
• Rosalyn Yalow ^# (1977)
• Daniel Nathans ^# (1978)
• Baruj Benacerraf ^# (1980)
• Sir John Vane ⁷ (1982)
• César Milstein ^# (1984)
• Michael Brown ^# (1985)
• Joseph Goldstein ^# (1985)
• Stanley Cohen ^# (1986)
• Rita Levi-Montalcini ^# (1986)
• Gertrude Elion ^# (1988)
• Harold Varmus ^# (1989)
• Edmond Fischer ⁸ (1992)
• Alfred Gilman ⁹ (1994)
• Martin Rodbell ¹⁰ (1994)
• Stanley Prusiner ¹¹ (1997)
• Robert Furchgott ¹² (1998)
• Paul Greengard ¹³ (2000)
• Eric Kandel ¹⁴ (2000)
• Sydney Brenner ¹⁵ (2002)
• H. Robert Horvitz ¹⁶ (2002)
• Richard Axel ¹⁷ (2004)
• Andrew Z. Fire ¹⁸ (2006)
  

[Mister Pappy]

Spinoza,

 

These are impressive lists, but they do not prove God's existence.

 

Pappy

 

 

 

[bdp]

Maybe I'm just dense, but I don't get what it's supposed to be a list of.

[SoulofSilver]

SoulofSilver

Proof : The Kingdom of God (Universe) is like yeast.

Do you know the current model of the expanding Universe ?

I'm quite informed about science.

Great, now you just have to prove that the Universe is the Kingdom of God

[Mister Pappy]

Maybe I'm just dense, but I don't get what it's supposed to be a list of.

bdp ... Spin Cycle is toying with the notion that the Jewish people have indeed been blessed by God as stated that they would be in the Bible. The list is a very impressive list of some of the most successful individuals to inhabit Earth in the last century. They also happen to be Jewish, and for Spin, this is an implication of the truth of God's existence.

[Darklady]

sadly this in another example of meaningless twaddle. The parable presented here is referring to heaven as paradise/afterlife/whatever you call it, not the expending universe. What does this prove?

 

The existence of god? How?

 

There is no thought here, nothing to prove anything.I would like to see some proof of the existence of your god, tangible real and testable.

 

 

 

Deut 7:6-7 http://www.jinfo.org/Nobel_Prizes.html

 

6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

 

7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: (.0019 % of World Population)

http://money.cnn.com...arity/index.htm

 

 

• Albert Michelson ^#,1 (1907)
• Gabriel Lippmann ^# (1908)
• Albert Einstein ^# (1921)
• Niels Bohr ^#,2 (1922)
• James Franck ^# (1925)
• Otto Stern ^# (1943)
• Isidor Rabi ^# (1944)
• Wolfgang Pauli ³ (1945)
• Felix Bloch ^# (1952)
• Max Born ^# (1954)
• Igor Tamm ^#,4 (1958)
• Ilya Frank ⁴ (1958)
• Emilio Segrè ^# (1959)
• Donald Glaser ^# (1960)
• Robert Hofstadter ^# (1961)
• Lev Landau ^# (1962)
• Eugene Wigner ⁵ (1963)
• Richard Feynman ^# (1965)
• Julian Schwinger ^# (1965)
• Hans Bethe ^#,6 (1967)
• Murray Gell-Mann ^# (1969)
• Dennis Gabor ^# (1971)
• Leon Cooper ⁷ (1972)
• Brian Josephson ^# (1973)
• Ben Mottelson ^# (1975)
• Burton Richter ^# (1976)
• Arno Penzias ^# (1978)
• Sheldon Glashow ^# (1979)
• Steven Weinberg ^# (1979)
• Arthur Schawlow ⁸ (1981)
• K. Alexander Müller ⁹ (1987)
  
• Leon Lederman ^# (1988)
• Melvin Schwartz ^# (1988)
• Jack Steinberger ^# (1988)
• Jerome Friedman ^# (1990)
• Georges Charpak ^#,10 (1992)
• Martin Perl ^#,11 (1995)
• Frederick Reines ^#,12 (1995)
• David Lee ¹³ (1996)
• Douglas Osheroff ¹⁴ (1996)
• Claude Cohen-Tannoudji ¹⁵ (1997)
• Zhores Alferov ¹⁶ (2000)
• Vitaly Ginzburg ¹⁷ (2003)
• Alexei Abrikosov ¹⁸ (2003)
• David Gross ¹⁹ (2004)
• H. David Politzer ¹⁹ (2004)
• Roy Glauber ²⁰ (2005)

• Tobias Asser ^# (1911)
• Alfred Fried ^# (1911)
• René Cassin ^# (1968)
• Henry Kissinger ^# (1973)
• Menachem Begin ^# (1978)
• Elie Wiesel ^# (1986)
• Shimon Peres ^# (1994)
• Yitzhak Rabin ^# (1994)
• Sir Joseph Rotblat ^# (1995)
• Paul Ehrlich ^# (1908)
• Elie Metchnikoff ^#,1 (1908)
• Robert Bárány ^# (1914)
• Otto Meyerhof ^# (1922)
• Karl Landsteiner ^# (1930)
• Otto Warburg ^#,2 (1931)
• Otto Loewi ^# (1936)
• Joseph Erlanger ^# (1944)
• Herbert Gasser ^#,3 (1944)
• Sir Ernst Chain ^# (1945)
• Hermann Muller ^#,4 (1946)
• Gerty Cori ⁵ (1947)
• Tadeus Reichstein ^# (1950)
• Selman Waksman ^# (1952)
• Sir Hans Krebs ^# (1953)
• Fritz Lipmann ^# (1953)
• Joshua Lederberg ^# (1958)
• Arthur Kornberg ^# (1959)
• Konrad Bloch ^# (1964)
• Francois Jacob ^# (1965)
• André Lwoff ^# (1965)
• George Wald ^# (1967)
• Marshall Nirenberg ^# (1968)
• Salvador Luria ^# (1969)
• Julius Axelrod ^# (1970)
• Sir Bernard Katz ^# (1970)
• Gerald Edelman ^# (1972)
• David Baltimore ^# (1975)
• Howard Temin ^# (1975)
• Baruch Blumberg ^# (1976)
• Andrew Schally ⁶ (1977)
• Rosalyn Yalow ^# (1977)
• Daniel Nathans ^# (1978)
• Baruj Benacerraf ^# (1980)
• Sir John Vane ⁷ (1982)
• César Milstein ^# (1984)
• Michael Brown ^# (1985)
• Joseph Goldstein ^# (1985)
• Stanley Cohen ^# (1986)
• Rita Levi-Montalcini ^# (1986)
• Gertrude Elion ^# (1988)
• Harold Varmus ^# (1989)
• Edmond Fischer ⁸ (1992)
• Alfred Gilman ⁹ (1994)
• Martin Rodbell ¹⁰ (1994)
• Stanley Prusiner ¹¹ (1997)
• Robert Furchgott ¹² (1998)
• Paul Greengard ¹³ (2000)
• Eric Kandel ¹⁴ (2000)
• Sydney Brenner ¹⁵ (2002)
• H. Robert Horvitz ¹⁶ (2002)
• Richard Axel ¹⁷ (2004)
• Andrew Z. Fire ¹⁸ (2006)
  

 

wow, I'm impressed - not.

A list of names of Jewish people(one presumes, although that is not made clear), who are what? famous, dead,? Im sorry spinoza, but if you want to play with adults you will need to converse better.

The existence of the jewish people(famous or not) is not proof of gods existence. Try again.

[Suzy]

2.What degree of free will will you allow to those beings?

 

 

Regarding free will I have a question to you: if a criminal puts a gun to your head and tells you: 'you either worship me or you will die', can that be considered as "free will"?

 

 

Is that why you don't commit crimes because you're afraid of jail?

 

By your question it seems you only don't commit crimes because you are afraid of something (be it Hell or jail). In my case that's not the reason. I don't commit crimes because I don't feel like hurting other people.You haven't answered my question though.

[Suzy]

2.What degree of free will will you allow to those beings?

 

 

Regarding free will I have a question to you: if a criminal puts a gun to your head and tells you: 'you either worship me or you will die', can that be considered as "free will"?

 

 

Is that why you don't commit crimes because you're afraid of jail?

 

 

????? Good thing that crimes against logic don't lead to jail time. That non sequitur would surely earn a felony conviction.

 

 

 

Sorry, women tend to think like pop-up windows. I meant that God's wrath is consequential and not vindictive. God never forces anyone to worship Him, He allures us Hosea 2:14. We worship Him because we LOVE Him.

 

So he does have wrath against me if I don't love him? Why does he feel the need to threaten everybody who do not love him? With this type of behaviour if he would be human we would call him a psychopath, definitely not a loving and caring person....

 

I personally could love and respect God more if he gave up on his blackmailing tactics.

[Suzy]

sadly this in another example of meaningless twaddle. The parable presented here is referring to heaven as paradise/afterlife/whatever you call it, not the expending universe. What does this prove?

 

The existence of god? How?

 

There is no thought here, nothing to prove anything.I would like to see some proof of the existence of your god, tangible real and testable.

 

 

 

Deut 7:6-7 http://www.jinfo.org/Nobel_Prizes.html

 

6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

 

7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: (.0019 % of World Population)

http://money.cnn.com...arity/index.htm

 

 

• Albert Michelson ^#,1 (1907)
• Gabriel Lippmann ^# (1908)
• Albert Einstein ^# (1921)
• Niels Bohr ^#,2 (1922)
• James Franck ^# (1925)
• Otto Stern ^# (1943)
• Isidor Rabi ^# (1944)
• Wolfgang Pauli ³ (1945)
• Felix Bloch ^# (1952)
• Max Born ^# (1954)
• Igor Tamm ^#,4 (1958)
• Ilya Frank ⁴ (1958)
• Emilio Segrè ^# (1959)
• Donald Glaser ^# (1960)
• Robert Hofstadter ^# (1961)
• Lev Landau ^# (1962)
• Eugene Wigner ⁵ (1963)
• Richard Feynman ^# (1965)
• Julian Schwinger ^# (1965)
• Hans Bethe ^#,6 (1967)
• Murray Gell-Mann ^# (1969)
• Dennis Gabor ^# (1971)
• Leon Cooper ⁷ (1972)
• Brian Josephson ^# (1973)
• Ben Mottelson ^# (1975)
• Burton Richter ^# (1976)
• Arno Penzias ^# (1978)
• Sheldon Glashow ^# (1979)
• Steven Weinberg ^# (1979)
• Arthur Schawlow ⁸ (1981)
• K. Alexander Müller ⁹ (1987)
  
• Leon Lederman ^# (1988)
• Melvin Schwartz ^# (1988)
• Jack Steinberger ^# (1988)
• Jerome Friedman ^# (1990)
• Georges Charpak ^#,10 (1992)
• Martin Perl ^#,11 (1995)
• Frederick Reines ^#,12 (1995)
• David Lee ¹³ (1996)
• Douglas Osheroff ¹⁴ (1996)
• Claude Cohen-Tannoudji ¹⁵ (1997)
• Zhores Alferov ¹⁶ (2000)
• Vitaly Ginzburg ¹⁷ (2003)
• Alexei Abrikosov ¹⁸ (2003)
• David Gross ¹⁹ (2004)
• H. David Politzer ¹⁹ (2004)
• Roy Glauber ²⁰ (2005)

• Tobias Asser ^# (1911)
• Alfred Fried ^# (1911)
• René Cassin ^# (1968)
• Henry Kissinger ^# (1973)
• Menachem Begin ^# (1978)
• Elie Wiesel ^# (1986)
• Shimon Peres ^# (1994)
• Yitzhak Rabin ^# (1994)
• Sir Joseph Rotblat ^# (1995)
• Paul Ehrlich ^# (1908)
• Elie Metchnikoff ^#,1 (1908)
• Robert Bárány ^# (1914)
• Otto Meyerhof ^# (1922)
• Karl Landsteiner ^# (1930)
• Otto Warburg ^#,2 (1931)
• Otto Loewi ^# (1936)
• Joseph Erlanger ^# (1944)
• Herbert Gasser ^#,3 (1944)
• Sir Ernst Chain ^# (1945)
• Hermann Muller ^#,4 (1946)
• Gerty Cori ⁵ (1947)
• Tadeus Reichstein ^# (1950)
• Selman Waksman ^# (1952)
• Sir Hans Krebs ^# (1953)
• Fritz Lipmann ^# (1953)
• Joshua Lederberg ^# (1958)
• Arthur Kornberg ^# (1959)
• Konrad Bloch ^# (1964)
• Francois Jacob ^# (1965)
• André Lwoff ^# (1965)
• George Wald ^# (1967)
• Marshall Nirenberg ^# (1968)
• Salvador Luria ^# (1969)
• Julius Axelrod ^# (1970)
• Sir Bernard Katz ^# (1970)
• Gerald Edelman ^# (1972)
• David Baltimore ^# (1975)
• Howard Temin ^# (1975)
• Baruch Blumberg ^# (1976)
• Andrew Schally ⁶ (1977)
• Rosalyn Yalow ^# (1977)
• Daniel Nathans ^# (1978)
• Baruj Benacerraf ^# (1980)
• Sir John Vane ⁷ (1982)
• César Milstein ^# (1984)
• Michael Brown ^# (1985)
• Joseph Goldstein ^# (1985)
• Stanley Cohen ^# (1986)
• Rita Levi-Montalcini ^# (1986)
• Gertrude Elion ^# (1988)
• Harold Varmus ^# (1989)
• Edmond Fischer ⁸ (1992)
• Alfred Gilman ⁹ (1994)
• Martin Rodbell ¹⁰ (1994)
• Stanley Prusiner ¹¹ (1997)
• Robert Furchgott ¹² (1998)
• Paul Greengard ¹³ (2000)
• Eric Kandel ¹⁴ (2000)
• Sydney Brenner ¹⁵ (2002)
• H. Robert Horvitz ¹⁶ (2002)
• Richard Axel ¹⁷ (2004)
• Andrew Z. Fire ¹⁸ (2006)
  

 

How many of those people were agostics/atheists?

[Guest Spinoza]

Deut 7:6-7 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: (.0019 % of World Population)

How many of those people were agostics/atheists? http://www.jinfo.org/Nobel_Prizes.html

 

 

I would guess Most of them ....... Albert Einstein, Carl Sagan, Baruch Spinoza, Jesus, Hitchens, Zuckerberg, Brin, Page, Ellison etc etc etc ....... A Treasure

[Phanta]

 

I like you.

[Guest Spinoza]

 

I like you.

 

I like you too. Thank you for being so kind, that is rare here.

[SirPhoenix]

Here's a challenge to all of God's critics. If you were God and you had to create beings:

 

1.Will the beings you create be equal to you or less powerful?

2.What degree of free will will you allow to those beings?

3.How will you prevent those beings from hurting you, each other and their creation?

4.What will you do with those beings who break your rules?

 

 

1. Less powerful. Why? Probably my ego.

2. Enough to live happily and in peace.

3. As an all powerful, all knowing god, I would not put them into circumstances where they would do so. I gave them free will, so I know when it will be abused. This is what we do as parents with our children. We recognize free will, while simultaneously denying our children access to the things they don't have the wisdom to handle.

4. As an all powerful, all knowing god, I wouldn't have this problem. I would know how to create beings that would live as I chose.