In And Out Of Faith

[JayL]

Benny Hinn

For the record Mike Warnke's book (novel I should say) The Satan Seller had a huge impact on my 'conversion' experience, and when I found out he was a fraud it shattered me. Many people have the same experience with Hinn; if he's 'converted' many then he's deconverted many too by being a false 'prophet'.

 

 

He may be an easy target, once again, because of his rich lifestyle. And no doubt there are numerous bitter people out there who think he was in it just for the money. But the truth may not be so one sided. I am not all that negative. His teaching was quite good.

[JayL]

 

The sinners prayer has some variations. Have you read anything like this?

 

"Lord, forgive me, though I deserve nothing but contempt. I am unworthy, but a maggot on the rotting flesh of my disgustingness. I deserve to be punished, and without your approval, I am worthless, a stain on the earth and not even as good as the dog shit you stepped in. Please forgive my dog too."

 

Are you a worthless piece of shit, deserving of punishment?

 

Are you not even worthy to gather up the crumbs from under the Lord's table? (<- that gem was in my old prayer book).

 

Have a little respect for yourself.

 

 

I think you misunderstand the word 'repentance'. In my view, this misunderstanding stems from Baptist theology. In truth, 'repentance' simply means 'change in thinking'. Like believing that the Kingdom of God arrived with Jesus Christ. That faith is repentance. Another example, believing Jesus won forgiveness for your sins on the cross and now you are at peace with God. That faith is also repentance.

[bdp]

 

The sinners prayer has some variations. Have you read anything like this?

 

"Lord, forgive me, though I deserve nothing but contempt. I am unworthy, but a maggot on the rotting flesh of my disgustingness. I deserve to be punished, and without your approval, I am worthless, a stain on the earth and not even as good as the dog shit you stepped in. Please forgive my dog too."

 

Are you a worthless piece of shit, deserving of punishment?

 

Are you not even worthy to gather up the crumbs from under the Lord's table? (<- that gem was in my old prayer book).

 

Have a little respect for yourself.

 

[bdp]

 

 

 

He may be an easy target, once again, because of his rich lifestyle. And no doubt there are numerous bitter people out there who think he was in it just for the money. But the truth may not be so one sided. I am not all that negative. His teaching was quite good.

 

He's a lying little cunt.

[par4dcourse]

The difference between a Benny Hinn Show and a rock concert.

 

One is an elaborately staged fantasy act with exciting wardrobe and carefully choreographed moves, staging, and lighting to thrill the audience into ectasy.

 

The other is a band's musical performance.

[florduh]

Are we still talking to this little troll who admires BENNY FUCKING HINN?

 

I must admit that I'm morbidly curious to see how he will top his last stupid remark. Just when I think he must be all out of stupid, he surprises me with a new one.

[par4dcourse]

He's never been to a concert (mmmph) but he imagines (hehehe) that's it's like (snicker, snicker) a BENNY HINN SHOW! (buwahhahahaha!)

 

I think I peed a little this time.

[Snowflake]

Benny Hinn

 

is a douche.

 

 

Yeah, a lot of people question him because of his rich lifestyle. In my view, he has done a lot to bring the Gospel message to people. He must have converted hundreds of thousands of people to Christianity if not millions.

The Bible itself questions his rich lifestyle.

 

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."{Mark 10:25 NIV}

 

"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon." {Matt 6:19-24 RSV}

 

The bible has a lot to say about a rich lifestyle.

 

I think he's a corrupt bastard, a con man and should be shut down, put in prison.

[florduh]

I think I peed a little this time.

That will happen more and more as you get older.

[Realist]

Are we still talking to this little troll who admires BENNY FUCKING HINN?

 

I must admit that I'm morbidly curious to see how he will top his last stupid remark. Just when I think he must be all out of stupid, he surprises me with a new one.

 

.... yes, I have to admit I now only come back to this posting for my wake-up laughs for the new day!!

[oddbird1963]

 

I think you misunderstand the word 'repentance'. In my view, this misunderstanding stems from Baptist theology. In truth, 'repentance' simply means 'change in thinking'. Like believing that the Kingdom of God arrived with Jesus Christ. That faith is repentance. Another example, believing Jesus won forgiveness for your sins on the cross and now you are at peace with God. That faith is also repentance.

 

Don't hurt yourself JayL, you are entering the realm of philosophical constructs. And , apparently, you are allergic to them.

 

You're understanding and impression of Baptist theology is pretty thin and superficial.

 

But that's okay. Whenever you get a little uncomfortable, you label it "intellectual" or "philosophical" and dismiss it.

 

that's okay. Just do a few whirling dervishes and utter a couple of "homina homina's." That's all you want.

 

Why you bother to pretend to be thinking is beyond me.

[Guest Valk0010]

God is real and He is a person.

 

I am sure the not nows what they mean is addressed to me, now maybe the consequences of such descriptions is unknown to me, but the concepts are really simple in nature and that always have been.

 

I just used the idea taught by christians in a way that no christian would allow those terms to be used.

 

What other meaning to all powerful could there be outside of all powerful, seems to be pretty self explanatory.

 

 

No I don't think these concepts are simple nor even helpful. I really believe these concepts are intellectual traps. You end up debating the number of angels that can dance on the head of pin rather than making any difference in real life. When God is said to be all powerful etc, there is a concrete example the bible is referring to. Do you even believe that particular example? If you don't, why even bother wondering about hypothetical case you came up with??

Actually that is a decent question. I am not a christian. But you are and I was, and as far as I understand the bible, all the things I associate with the Christian God are biblically accurate, hence my use of the examples.

Because if I am right on these hypotheticals, then the Christian god is self refuting as far as I understand everything.

[Guest Valk0010]

 

So Christianity is a group delusion?

 

And if you stop going, you're making a choice to "lose" your faith?

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't it once saved always saved Mr. JayL

 

 

Well, depending on what you mean by being saved... But I tend to agree with the idea. Esp. if one is born again in Christ, yes, it is pretty much a done deal.

Ding ding you hit the nail on the head

[Guest Valk0010]

 

A Few questions

 

Umm then is the muslim allowed to make the same claim as you, on its true to me because it changed my life and "I" like such and such quranic verses, and "I" had experiences "I" can't explain.

 

How did you face the innately subjective nature of experience, when deciding to use whatever experience you had as proof of xtianity.

 

I got another question

 

Do you take the bible from word one till the end literally? Meaning that what it said happened happened and the like.

 

 

I would carefully investigate such claim by muslims and decide what to make of it. I do believe there is spiritual influences in different religions. But I have studied history and theology of Islam enough to have some strong opinions.

 

I was just mentioning that subjective experiences do play a key role in continued vibrancy of Christianity. It's those people who have born again experience, who experience God, who live by the Bible who make up the 'true believer' category. Theology students typically do not belong in such 'true believer' category, IMO.

 

Do I take literal view of the Bible. No. What I do know ( that is, I am convinced of) is that the Bible is a supernatural book. God can really speak through the Bible. It is a book like no other I know. Also as a source of ancient history, I consider the Bible to be one of the greatest source material out there.

I am not sure if I should be a bit insulted by this, but you no what I am not. It typical as far as I can see to say something like that.

 

Have you ever studied religion via anthropology. While I am not able to claim much on my part the little I did helped me alot(1 class)

Basically the point i made about a muslim comes out on a equal plateau to the unbias as the christian.

 

The muslim on this site says the exact same thing about the quran as far as "God can speak through it is concerned"

 

On a source for ancient history read a few things about the New Testament by people that lost there faith, because of it.

 

Or better yet look up some refutation to the likes of William Lane Craig and Gary Habermas

 

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/indef/4e.html

 

if that link doesn't work google

 

craig on tombs habermas on visions

[Guest Valk0010]

 

Paul would speak of Jesus as the second adam, correct me if I am wrong I haven't read it in awhile

 

But why would Jesus be second to someone who didn't exist?

 

 

I do believe the Garden of Eden account. I believe Adam and Eve were real.

 

Ohhh dear

 

How could you when adam and eve were of the level of evolution that they were agricultural. And human males don't have the missing rib

 

You also do realize right, that oral tradition doesn't work so well from adam to moses.

 

Do you also realize that humans have been literally all over the world that we can walk on, guess what no cherubim

 

I guess you believe in the ark to let me spoil the suprise some

 

We never had ever had enough water on this planet to kill all the things that the bible claims the flood killed

 

By the time of Noah being done, to woodwork he started with would at least have started to rot. Wood out of the group rots no matter what since its organic, so you go no arguement there.

[Guest Valk0010]

I keep hearing about insurance for hell and the like

 

Isn't the idea of christianity is that we need forgive and have to want the relationship with god, not just for fire insurance but for fellowship.

 

I don't like Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort but they and I believe Kirk said this have a point when they said something to the effect that if you belief in god for pascal's wager your a hypocrite because your not believing because you just think its true, its just to save your ass and not to be a servant of the lord or whatever you want to call it.

 

So Jay if you believe for reasons of pascal wager, or just because your scared, ever thought jesus might say I never knew you, because you were just simply living for him, but to save your own ass.

 

 

It may begin with 'trying to save my ass from hell' but then something more could happen. For example, as the person prays the 'sinner's prayer', he may experience the supernatural presence of God. This has actually happened to me. And it really made me wonder if there is spiritual reality. ( Remember I am from atheist background.) What I am saying is that Pascal's wager would be just a starting point. One has to grow in faith or the decision would wear off in the long run.

 

 

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

 

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

 

 

Obviously this is a tough passage. Even among those who are in the church leadership, who prophesy, who cast out demons, and perform miracles, there could be false ones. In reality, they are 'ferocious wolves, bad tree that bear bad fruits, and evildoers'. That is one scary passage.

 

 

However I also believe Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of my faith. I did not get started on my faith by my effort and I do not live my Christian life by my effort. It is all trusting Jesus Christ day to day. I hope my life is bearing good fruits!

God my typos, meant to say weren't when I said were

 

Okay on pascal fine, still its not a convincing argument, but fine.

 

About the spiritual thing

 

A atheist background is irrelevant, if not truly educated in understanding why religion is BS. Two of the dumbest people I have meet are self professed atheists, and have probably very weak and non wellthoughout reasons for atheism

 

Ever thought about how you have religious experience yet someone from a different religion has there own experiences.

 

That leads me to say 3 possibilities

 

Either one, all the people are wrong besides Christianity, and they are worshiping satan and don't know it(which is for a few reasons unprovable) One how religion develops effects all religions. You can't prove a devil without bringing in outside information which is irrelevant in this instance. Also just general likelyhood on the situation.

As well as there similarities, like the golden rule for example.

 

Or they are all right which unless you are a universalist is not cool with anybody religious, and is irrelevant for all intents and purposes to the nonreligious

 

Or they are all man made. (Which is the one I accept)

 

Basically if you're going to grant yours as evidence you are going to have to present some reason criteria to judge yours on a better level then others.

[Guest Valk0010]

These are highly interesting points. So you were part of 'charismatic outpouring' and have experienced God's presence at these meetings. Yet, after you left the church and on your own, you recognize those feelings as mere 'biochemical reactions and social suggestions'. That is so fascinating! I think sometimes it really takes even a vibrant committed Christian just to get away from Church, and 'go cold turkey' to lose his faith!

Meeting together with other Christians is pretty critical if you want to remain a Christian. ( But as you may put it, why would you want to, if all this is just a social suggestion! )

 

Perhaps Jesus understood this human tendency. "When two or three of you are gathered in my name, I will be there in the midst." So when you are on your own, it is hard to experience the presence of God. And pretty soon, we are back to being an agnostic and even atheist.

 

I have been thru that cycle a few times! LOL

 

 

 

I have lost my faith WHILE I was in church, WHILE I was in community. During meetings of the "Hitler youth" in the 30´s there also was a special atmosphere, the feeling that those people belonged to something bigger. The fact that there are emotions proofs NOTHING. As I have mentioned (and you have ignored it) muslims, hindus, buddhist, pagans, witches, people that are using transcendental meditation and so on...all those people have special emotions in groups. That is normal. Have you ever been to a rock concert? Have you ever been at a soccer game? Just read a few books about sociology or psychology of groups and you will understand what I am talking about, although you will still believe, that it is something different in xian meetings. You are experiencing the presence of god? What experience those muslim people, the hindus? Are they experiencing god, because in the group it feels so good? What about sects with some weird believes? They feel good while being together. What is your criterion to say, that you are experiencing the holy spirit and the freaks of the sect not?

 

This is not an attempt to get into a discussion, but to make my point clear.

 

This helps my argument though, thanks

[Guest Valk0010]

 

The sinners prayer has some variations. Have you read anything like this?

 

"Lord, forgive me, though I deserve nothing but contempt. I am unworthy, but a maggot on the rotting flesh of my disgustingness. I deserve to be punished, and without your approval, I am worthless, a stain on the earth and not even as good as the dog shit you stepped in. Please forgive my dog too."

 

Are you a worthless piece of shit, deserving of punishment?

 

Are you not even worthy to gather up the crumbs from under the Lord's table? (<- that gem was in my old prayer book).

 

Have a little respect for yourself.

 

 

I think you misunderstand the word 'repentance'. In my view, this misunderstanding stems from Baptist theology. In truth, 'repentance' simply means 'change in thinking'. Like believing that the Kingdom of God arrived with Jesus Christ. That faith is repentance. Another example, believing Jesus won forgiveness for your sins on the cross and now you are at peace with God. That faith is also repentance.

The where you become the piece of shit, comes from being created, yes, created, seeing as you and me had no choice in the matter, sinful.

 

We are made sick but then masochistically asked to be well

 

the repentance is the covering up of the sickness

 

I have a question though, if evil and good cannot exist in the same place then why is it that christians filled with the holy ghost still sin, and in many ways do more wrong to themselves and other then the nonbeliever

[Guest Valk0010]

<<Christian: "Can you believe this crap? They believe a guy rode a winged horse up to paradise after he died! What crap!"

Muslim: "But what about Jesus floating up into the sky?"

Christian: "What? Oh, you mean the Ascension! That really happened. But get this, Muslims copied the first few books of the Bible into the Koran. Talk about Plagiarism!"

Muslim: "But the Christians copied the entire Jewish bible into their bible."

Christian: "That's totally different. Jesus was a Jew."

Muslim: "So Christians are Jews?"

Christian: "What have you been smoking? The only thing we have in common is God."

Muslim: "As do we."

Christian: "Yeah, well, Mohammed was not nice."

Muslim: "Mohammed (pbuh) was extremely nice. Jesus was not nice."

Christian: "Have you read the New Testament???"

Muslim: "Not in its entirety, but enough to get a flavor for Jesus. Actually, I learned about him mostly from Islamic literature and web sites. Have you read the Koran??"

Christian: "well, no, not in its entirety, but enough to get a flavor for Mohammed. Actually, I learned about him mostly from Christian literature and web sites. I don't read Arabic."

Muslim: "If you don't read Arabic, then you can't understand the Koran." >>

 

 

 

I believe one can get beyond this level of confusion.

Okay I studied christian stuff enough to have some strong opinions about it, and I continue to study it, and I continue to come here, to see if I am wrong. I don't see that courage coming from you.

 

Umm can you when one side is destined for hell in the others eyes, I have had, when I believed, non-believing friends but the religion subject was something we couldn't talk about because it would devolve to this level of absurdity.

[JayL]

 

 

I have a question though, if evil and good cannot exist in the same place then why is it that christians filled with the holy ghost still sin, and in many ways do more wrong to themselves and other then the nonbeliever

 

 

Boy, that is one serious question. ( For practicing Christians, that is. ) I am not sure I can answer that well. And I am not sure you would be happy with whatever I say. This is something I think about a lot.

[JayL]

Are we still talking to this little troll who admires BENNY FUCKING HINN?

 

I must admit that I'm morbidly curious to see how he will top his last stupid remark. Just when I think he must be all out of stupid, he surprises me with a new one.

 

 

 

I see a lot of anger and bitterness on this board. It is not fun to come here.

 

I ask you to refrain from profanities - if possible.

[JayL]

 

 

is a douche.

.

 

I think he's a corrupt bastard, a con man and should be shut down, put in prison.

 

 

I would say that is unwarranted hatred.

[bdp]

 

 

is a douche.

.

 

I think he's a corrupt bastard, a con man and should be shut down, put in prison.

 

 

I would say that is unwarranted hatred.

 

Oh yeah? How much do you REALLY know about the little bitch?

[bdp]

Are we still talking to this little troll who admires BENNY FUCKING HINN?

 

I must admit that I'm morbidly curious to see how he will top his last stupid remark. Just when I think he must be all out of stupid, he surprises me with a new one.

 

 

 

I see a lot of anger and bitterness on this board. It is not fun to come here.

 

I ask you to refrain from profanities - if possible.

 

"It is not fun to come here" - THEN DON'T.

 

"I ask you to refrain from profanities - if possible." Fuck that - our house, not yours. AND it's the lion's den - no fucking rules.

[florduh]

Are we still talking to this little troll who admires BENNY FUCKING HINN?

 

I must admit that I'm morbidly curious to see how he will top his last stupid remark. Just when I think he must be all out of stupid, he surprises me with a new one.

 

 

 

I see a lot of anger and bitterness on this board. It is not fun to come here.

 

I ask you to refrain from profanities - if possible.

 

Thanks for not disappointing