In And Out Of Faith

[Guest Valk0010]

I keep hearing about insurance for hell and the like

 

Isn't the idea of christianity is that we need forgive and have to want the relationship with god, not just for fire insurance but for fellowship.

 

I don't like Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort but they and I believe Kirk said this have a point when they said something to the effect that if you belief in god for pascal's wager your a hypocrite because your not believing because you just think its true, its just to save your ass and not to be a servant of the lord or whatever you want to call it.

 

So Jay if you believe for reasons of pascal wager, or just because your scared, ever thought jesus might say I never knew you, because you were just simply living for him, but to save your own ass.

[Guest Valk0010]

 

How do you know he isn't filled with the spirit and god is guiding his words?

 

In our church we were asked to shout "Jesus is lord". There is some bible verse that implies, that you can only say something like this when you are filled with the spirit. So the ability to shout "jesus is lord" was the proof for the holy spirit in us.

 

 

That is very interesting. But I am not sure that can be a proof of Holy Spirit in someone.

 

For myself, I became convinced of the Holy Spirit within me when I started to experience significant changes in myself. But perhaps the first sign may be that the Bible started to open up to me. It was an amazing experience. I would say that was supernatural.

The effect of belief doesn't automatically make a belief true.

[Guest Valk0010]

 

That Jay won't post it plainly shows it won't stand the scrutiny of people who really know physics and mathematics. What a sham and a waste of time to go on with this troll.

 

 

Well, so it goes.

Ummm you have yet to share reasons outside of pascal's wager and subjective experience on why you beliefs are true, unless of course I missed something

[Guest Valk0010]

 

I think that evolution is corrosive to Christian doctrine, if you accept evolution.

Prove how its not corrosive to Christianity.

 

Your chose on which one to start with

 

 

Those are such big topics I am a bit at a loss. I will start with evolution. Yes, the way Darwinian evolution is taught in schools - totally random, no purpose evolutionary change - is clearly corrosive to Christian faith.

 

I do accept fossil evidences, tree of life, etc. But I am clearly on the side of theistic evolution. I believe God intervened in genetic codes of primates to create humans.

Do you take Genesis as metaphor or whatever literary for it is.

 

Then how did you deal with this problem.

 

Paul would speak of Jesus as the second adam, correct me if I am wrong I haven't read it in awhile

 

But why would jesus be second to someone who didn't exist?

[ContraBardus]

 

 

 

 

I think John Wimber's favorite quote was 'I am a fool for Christ. whose fool are you?'.

 

 

[Guest Valk0010]

 

 

Take my next question then

 

What makes your experience more valuable as a truth claim, to the veracity of a particular religion then say the muslim on his hajj to mecca's experiences or there experiences in prayer

 

 

I certainly cannot say that my experience is more valid than others. What I CAN say is that my experiences were quite shocking to me and they affected my life quite profoundly.

 

In general, these personal experience and testimonies are the heart of Christianity. Christianity does not revolve around philosophical concepts like omnipotence and omnipresence. It revolves around miracles, personal transformations, personal experience of daily life, etc. So one may quote some Bible verses. But rather than translating them to philosophical categories, it is better to ask 'what does this particular verse mean to me??' Does this verse speak to me? Christianity is very experience based.

 

I guess that is one reason I was attracted to this website. I was curious to read 'deconversion testimonies.' There is something about a person honestly sharing his experiences and conclusions he has reached.

I like your honesty.

 

A Few questions

 

Umm then is the muslim allowed to make the same claim as you, on its true to me because it changed my life and "I" like such and such quranic verses, and "I" had experiences "I" can't explain.

 

How did you face the innately subjective nature of experience, when deciding to use whatever experience you had as proof of xtianity.

 

I got another question

 

Do you take the bible from word one till the end literally? Meaning that what it said happened happened and the like.

[Guest Valk0010]

God is real and He is a person.

 

 

You are dodging the issue. You call something philosophical only to avoid dealing with the meaning of concepts you can't handle.

 

You say, 'god is real.' But, you don't want to explore that statement further. Why is what you say meaningful? What do you mean by "Person" when that "person" does not exist in any sense of he word that most people mean "exist?"

 

To delve any deeper beyond mere pixels on a screen with you necessitates getting philosophical. But, if we use words that challenge you, you suddenly eschew philosophy.

 

You're not intellectually honest.

 

All you are giving us is "you need to seek out and experience God yourself." I say, "Can I hear a duh?"

 

You're forgetting many here have years invested in Christianity where God was sought. He just didn't show up. You say god is "the person who spoke to me." There are so many cogent explanations for what you experienced that have nothing to do with god.

 

Again, what is your definition of god? And why should we believe a thing you say?

 

And please stop dismissing our own past experiences because, clearly, you don't know what you are talking about when you urge people to "seek out to experience God themselves."

 

I am sure that the vast majority of ex-C's here HAVE seriously, over a long period of time sought God for themselves.

 

 

 

I do apologize if I sounded dismissive. But, yes, it is true. I cannot handle those philosophical categories. I think they are intellectual traps. It is like one poster accusing God of being a murderer by using those concepts. All I can say is, Huh?? Yeah, I cannot handle those categories. I cannot fathom what they mean. But I suspect the other poster can not either.

 

 

I am glad to hear that many other have seriously sought God and 'wrestled' with their faiths. I put myself in there as well. I have been in and out of Christianity a few times. And do I know which is ultimately correct? Not with complete certainty. But I do think that the experiential aspect is what drives the faith of Christianity. I would say that is more so than in other religions.

I am sure the not nows what they mean is addressed to me, now maybe the consequences of such descriptions is unknown to me, but the concepts are really simple in nature and that always have been.

 

I just used the idea taught by christians in a way that no christian would allow those terms to be used.

 

What other meaning to all powerful could there be outside of all powerful, seems to be pretty self explanatory.

[Guest Valk0010]

I think sometimes it really takes even a vibrant committed Christian just to get away from Church, and 'go cold turkey' to lose his faith!

Meeting together with other Christians is pretty critical if you want to remain a Christian.

 

So Christianity is a group delusion?

 

And if you stop going, you're making a choice to "lose" your faith?

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't it once saved always saved Mr. JayL

[Michael]

These are highly interesting points. So you were part of 'charismatic outpouring' and have experienced God's presence at these meetings. Yet, after you left the church and on your own, you recognize those feelings as mere 'biochemical reactions and social suggestions'. That is so fascinating! I think sometimes it really takes even a vibrant committed Christian just to get away from Church, and 'go cold turkey' to lose his faith!

Meeting together with other Christians is pretty critical if you want to remain a Christian. ( But as you may put it, why would you want to, if all this is just a social suggestion! )

 

Perhaps Jesus understood this human tendency. "When two or three of you are gathered in my name, I will be there in the midst." So when you are on your own, it is hard to experience the presence of God. And pretty soon, we are back to being an agnostic and even atheist.

 

I have been thru that cycle a few times! LOL

 

I have lost my faith WHILE I was in church, WHILE I was in community. During meetings of the "Hitler youth" in the 30´s there also was a special atmosphere, the feeling that those people belonged to something bigger. The fact that there are emotions proofs NOTHING. As I have mentioned (and you have ignored it) muslims, hindus, buddhist, pagans, witches, people that are using transcendental meditation and so on...all those people have special emotions in groups. That is normal. Have you ever been to a rock concert? Have you ever been at a soccer game? Just read a few books about sociology or psychology of groups and you will understand what I am talking about, although you will still believe, that it is something different in xian meetings. You are experiencing the presence of god? What experience those muslim people, the hindus? Are they experiencing god, because in the group it feels so good? What about sects with some weird believes? They feel good while being together. What is your criterion to say, that you are experiencing the holy spirit and the freaks of the sect not?

 

This is not an attempt to get into a discussion, but to make my point clear.

[JayL]

 

I have lost my faith WHILE I was in church, WHILE I was in community. During meetings of the "Hitler youth" in the 30´s there also was a special atmosphere, the feeling that those people belonged to something bigger. The fact that there are emotions proofs NOTHING. As I have mentioned (and you have ignored it) muslims, hindus, buddhist, pagans, witches, people that are using transcendental meditation and so on...all those people have special emotions in groups. That is normal. Have you ever been to a rock concert? Have you ever been at a soccer game? Just read a few books about sociology or psychology of groups and you will understand what I am talking about, although you will still believe, that it is something different in xian meetings. You are experiencing the presence of god? What experience those muslim people, the hindus? Are they experiencing god, because in the group it feels so good? What about sects with some weird believes? They feel good while being together. What is your criterion to say, that you are experiencing the holy spirit and the freaks of the sect not?

 

This is not an attempt to get into a discussion, but to make my point clear.

 

 

I have not been to a rock concert but I enjoyed a couple of large healing crusades I attended ( Benny Hinn ). I really have not thought a lot this issue of group dynamic. I was born again in 1996 and at the time I was not going to church nor meeting with Christians. I did not join a church till 1999.

 

So was it intellectual thinking that made you lose faith while in the group?

[JayL]

 

So Christianity is a group delusion?

 

And if you stop going, you're making a choice to "lose" your faith?

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't it once saved always saved Mr. JayL

 

 

Well, depending on what you mean by being saved... But I tend to agree with the idea. Esp. if one is born again in Christ, yes, it is pretty much a done deal.

[par4dcourse]

 

 

I have not been to a rock concert but I enjoyed a couple of large healing crusades I attended ( Benny Hinn ).

 

 

Stop it, Jay, you're killing me. I haven't laughed this hard in months.

 

 

[JayL]

God is real and He is a person.

 

I am sure the not nows what they mean is addressed to me, now maybe the consequences of such descriptions is unknown to me, but the concepts are really simple in nature and that always have been.

 

I just used the idea taught by christians in a way that no christian would allow those terms to be used.

 

What other meaning to all powerful could there be outside of all powerful, seems to be pretty self explanatory.

 

 

No I don't think these concepts are simple nor even helpful. I really believe these concepts are intellectual traps. You end up debating the number of angels that can dance on the head of pin rather than making any difference in real life. When God is said to be all powerful etc, there is a concrete example the bible is referring to. Do you even believe that particular example? If you don't, why even bother wondering about hypothetical case you came up with??

[JayL]

 

 

 

Stop it, Jay, you're killing me. I haven't laughed this hard in months.

 

 

 

I am glad you are LOL'ing.

[par4dcourse]

And please see if jesus can explain the quote function to you.

[JayL]

 

A Few questions

 

Umm then is the muslim allowed to make the same claim as you, on its true to me because it changed my life and "I" like such and such quranic verses, and "I" had experiences "I" can't explain.

 

How did you face the innately subjective nature of experience, when deciding to use whatever experience you had as proof of xtianity.

 

I got another question

 

Do you take the bible from word one till the end literally? Meaning that what it said happened happened and the like.

 

 

I would carefully investigate such claim by muslims and decide what to make of it. I do believe there is spiritual influences in different religions. But I have studied history and theology of Islam enough to have some strong opinions.

 

I was just mentioning that subjective experiences do play a key role in continued vibrancy of Christianity. It's those people who have born again experience, who experience God, who live by the Bible who make up the 'true believer' category. Theology students typically do not belong in such 'true believer' category, IMO.

 

Do I take literal view of the Bible. No. What I do know ( that is, I am convinced of) is that the Bible is a supernatural book. God can really speak through the Bible. It is a book like no other I know. Also as a source of ancient history, I consider the Bible to be one of the greatest source material out there.

[NotBlinded]

God can really speak through the Bible. It is a book like no other I know.

You need to read more...

[bdp]

Benny Hinn

 

is a douche.

[JayL]

Benny Hinn

 

is a douche.

 

 

Yeah, a lot of people question him because of his rich lifestyle. In my view, he has done a lot to bring the Gospel message to people. He must have converted hundreds of thousands of people to Christianity if not millions.

[JayL]

 

Paul would speak of Jesus as the second adam, correct me if I am wrong I haven't read it in awhile

 

But why would Jesus be second to someone who didn't exist?

 

 

I do believe the Garden of Eden account. I believe Adam and Eve were real.

[bdp]

Benny Hinn

 

is a douche.

 

 

Yeah, a lot of people question him because of his rich lifestyle. In my view, he has done a lot to bring the Gospel message to people. He must have converted hundreds of thousands of people to Christianity if not millions.

 

big fucking deal. he's a con man.

 

"Steal from the poor give your hand

Keep them hungry

They'll stay under

You are headed for the end

No compassion just get all you can

Death to your ministry it's just a joke to me

And when murder becomes a bore

You'll say there must be something more..."

 

Michael Knott, 'More To Life' (Christian artist I might add)

 

For the record Mike Warnke's book (novel I should say) The Satan Seller had a huge impact on my 'conversion' experience, and when I found out he was a fraud it shattered me. Many people have the same experience with Hinn; if he's 'converted' many then he's deconverted many too by being a false 'prophet'.

[Shyone]

I would carefully investigate such claim by muslims and decide what to make of it. I do believe there is spiritual influences in different religions. But I have studied history and theology of Islam enough to have some strong opinions.

 

Did you study theology in a Madrassa? What do you think of Muslims who say, "I would carefully investigate such claim by christians and decide what to make of it. I do believe there is spiritual influences in different religions. But I have studied history and theology of Christianity enough to have some strong opinions."

 

The very idea of studying another religion from within the confines of your own religion is almost ludicrous. The necessary assumption that your religion is true colors everything you read, but to listen to the kinds of criticisms you offer, they are generally ad hominems rather than analyses of doctrine, and when doctrine is criticised, the hypocrisy really comes shining through:

 

Christian: "Can you believe this crap? They believe a guy rode a winged horse up to paradise after he died! What crap!"

Muslim: "But what about Jesus floating up into the sky?"

Christian: "What? Oh, you mean the Ascension! That really happened. But get this, Muslims copied the first few books of the Bible into the Koran. Talk about Plagiarism!"

Muslim: "But the Christians copied the entire Jewish bible into their bible."

Christian: "That's totally different. Jesus was a Jew."

Muslim: "So Christians are Jews?"

Christian: "What have you been smoking? The only thing we have in common is God."

Muslim: "As do we."

Christian: "Yeah, well, Mohammed was not nice."

Muslim: "Mohammed (pbuh) was extremely nice. Jesus was not nice."

Christian: "Have you read the New Testament???"

Muslim: "Not in its entirety, but enough to get a flavor for Jesus. Actually, I learned about him mostly from Islamic literature and web sites. Have you read the Koran??"

Christian: "well, no, not in its entirety, but enough to get a flavor for Mohammed. Actually, I learned about him mostly from Christian literature and web sites. I don't read Arabic."

Muslim: "If you don't read Arabic, then you can't understand the Koran."

 

I was just mentioning that subjective experiences do play a key role in continued vibrancy of Christianity. It's those people who have born again experience, who experience God, who live by the Bible who make up the 'true believer' category. Theology students typically do not belong in such 'true believer' category, IMO.

 

I contend that it's hard enough to understand our own experiences, but clearly more difficult to really understand another's experiences. The insane live in a subjective world, and a lot of people can't seem to separate reality from imagination (hint, hint).

 

For all of the good feelings and subjective experiences, the promises are empty, and the evidence is like brain fog: it is hard to see through and disappears with a whiff of the wind of reason.

[JayL]

I keep hearing about insurance for hell and the like

 

Isn't the idea of christianity is that we need forgive and have to want the relationship with god, not just for fire insurance but for fellowship.

 

I don't like Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort but they and I believe Kirk said this have a point when they said something to the effect that if you belief in god for pascal's wager your a hypocrite because your not believing because you just think its true, its just to save your ass and not to be a servant of the lord or whatever you want to call it.

 

So Jay if you believe for reasons of pascal wager, or just because your scared, ever thought jesus might say I never knew you, because you were just simply living for him, but to save your own ass.

 

 

It may begin with 'trying to save my ass from hell' but then something more could happen. For example, as the person prays the 'sinner's prayer', he may experience the supernatural presence of God. This has actually happened to me. And it really made me wonder if there is spiritual reality. ( Remember I am from atheist background.) What I am saying is that Pascal's wager would be just a starting point. One has to grow in faith or the decision would wear off in the long run.

 

 

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

 

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

 

 

Obviously this is a tough passage. Even among those who are in the church leadership, who prophesy, who cast out demons, and perform miracles, there could be false ones. In reality, they are 'ferocious wolves, bad tree that bear bad fruits, and evildoers'. That is one scary passage.

 

 

However I also believe Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of my faith. I did not get started on my faith by my effort and I do not live my Christian life by my effort. It is all trusting Jesus Christ day to day. I hope my life is bearing good fruits!

[JayL]

<<Christian: "Can you believe this crap? They believe a guy rode a winged horse up to paradise after he died! What crap!"

Muslim: "But what about Jesus floating up into the sky?"

Christian: "What? Oh, you mean the Ascension! That really happened. But get this, Muslims copied the first few books of the Bible into the Koran. Talk about Plagiarism!"

Muslim: "But the Christians copied the entire Jewish bible into their bible."

Christian: "That's totally different. Jesus was a Jew."

Muslim: "So Christians are Jews?"

Christian: "What have you been smoking? The only thing we have in common is God."

Muslim: "As do we."

Christian: "Yeah, well, Mohammed was not nice."

Muslim: "Mohammed (pbuh) was extremely nice. Jesus was not nice."

Christian: "Have you read the New Testament???"

Muslim: "Not in its entirety, but enough to get a flavor for Jesus. Actually, I learned about him mostly from Islamic literature and web sites. Have you read the Koran??"

Christian: "well, no, not in its entirety, but enough to get a flavor for Mohammed. Actually, I learned about him mostly from Christian literature and web sites. I don't read Arabic."

Muslim: "If you don't read Arabic, then you can't understand the Koran." >>

 

 

 

I believe one can get beyond this level of confusion.

[Shyone]

For example, as the person prays the 'sinner's prayer', he may experience the supernatural presence of God. This has actually happened to me. And it really made me wonder if there is spiritual reality. ( Remember I am from atheist background.) What I am saying is that Pascal's wager would be just a starting point. One has to grow in faith or the decision would wear off in the long run.

 

The sinners prayer has some variations. Have you read anything like this?

 

"Lord, forgive me, though I deserve nothing but contempt. I am unworthy, but a maggot on the rotting flesh of my disgustingness. I deserve to be punished, and without your approval, I am worthless, a stain on the earth and not even as good as the dog shit you stepped in. Please forgive my dog too."

 

Are you a worthless piece of shit, deserving of punishment?

 

Are you not even worthy to gather up the crumbs from under the Lord's table? (<- that gem was in my old prayer book).

 

Have a little respect for yourself.