In And Out Of Faith

[JayL]

Anyhow thanks for the conversation. I'll be baaack.

 

 

Be well and best wishes.

[oddbird1963]

I do apologize if I sounded dismissive. But, yes, it is true. I cannot handle those philosophical categories. I think they are intellectual traps. It is like one poster accusing God of being a murderer by using those concepts. All I can say is, Huh?? Yeah, I cannot handle those categories. I cannot fathom what they mean. But I suspect the other poster can not either.

 

I am glad to hear that many other have seriously sought God and 'wrestled' with their faiths. I put myself in there as well. I have been in and out of Christianity a few times. And do I know which is ultimately correct? Not with complete certainty. But I do think that the experiential aspect is what drives the faith of Christianity. I would say that is more so than in other religions.

 

Apology accepted, if you are sincere. But with your behavior so far on this forum, I don't know what to make of your sincerity.

 

I think at this point you need to demonstrate, in a cogent way, that these "philosophical categories" are intellectual traps. Otherwise, I hear you saying that a philosophical approach merely leads you to conclusions you don't want to deal with. It seems more like you won't go where reason leads you because you are too afraid to lose that wonderful feeling you get when you are gripped by a sense of relating to a personal god.

 

So, how accurate is it to say, that you don't really care what the Bible says about God, you just want to believe the minimal number of statements needed to think that you are experiencing the "christian" god because you simply prefer to believe that way?

[oddbird1963]

 

Again, what is your definition of god? And why should we believe a thing you say?

 

Well, my definition would go like, God is a supernatural being whose nature is love.

 

I believe this small definition is consistent with the Bible and also supported by my experiences.

 

What do you mean when you say god is 'supernatural' and what does it mean to have a nature described as love?

 

You see, what you say has no meaning because you would have to get philosophical to determine such things.

 

The bible doesn't teach that god is supernatural. Nor does it teach that God's nature is love.

 

So, your definition of god doesn't work. Why should we believe what you are saying if it has no meaning and no real support?

 

Wouldn't be better just to tell people, "I really get off on my faith for some reason and I don't want to stop?"

[lunaticheathen]

I am glad to hear that many other have seriously sought God and 'wrestled' with their faiths. I put myself in there as well. I have been in and out of Christianity a few times.

 

Um, the site is EX Christian. What the fuck makes you think we haven't wrestled with christianity? Are you retarded? Of course we sought "god", we were all once christian, or at least TRIED to be christian.

And the fact that you waffle makes me wonder how seriously you look at anything. Is it your mood, or do you REALLY actually CONSIDER anything at all?

 

And do I know which is ultimately correct? Not with complete certainty.

 

At least you SAY you admit that. But I doubt your sincerity, since you like taking punches at me, and several other people here.

 

But I do think that the experiential aspect is what drives the faith of Christianity. I would say that is more so than in other religions.

 

I call you on that. I have to. I have experienced spiritual happenings, as I HAVE SAID IN THIS THREAD, but you seem to love to ignore it. None of them were in the least bit, in any aspect, christian. Not one. Never did I once relate anything that happened to me with the christian faith. Why? It all happened AFTER I completely dumped it. After I freed myself from the false hope of a dead religion, my spiritual world split wide open. Once I freed myself of all expectations, everything wonderful happened.

Jesus and his Abrahamic god were just millstones lashed around my neck. Dead fucking weight.

[Sconnor]

 

 

Luke 1:37 " For nothing will be impossible with God."

 

 

So what does this quote mean to you?? That God is 'omnipotent and omnipresent'?? It may help to read these verses in context.

 

Notice how JayL conveniently ignored ALL the other verses I provided from the bible that paints god to be all-powerful.

 

And the one he did address was just a half-assed response that never tells us how the context makes it invalid. What little (if any) credibility you had is quickly heading south.

 

I also noticed his massive intellect (which JayL gets confused with his massive ego) couldn't provide ANY objective evidence for the staple of christianity: the resurrection. Go figure!?!

 

Ok boys and girls, the school is back in session. The teacher is back.

Ask questions - but one at a time. And please no profanities!

 

Fuck you -- you little prick.

 

You have NOTHING to offer but morbid ignorance and a bogus sense of superiority.

 

Your time here is numbered.

 

--S.

[Michael]

But I do think that the experiential aspect is what drives the faith of Christianity. I would say that is more so than in other religions.

 

I think you are wrong on this one. Meditation can bring amazing experiences, drugs can bring amazing experiences, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists and others experience their religion, their philosophy. Those called "experiences" are most of the time lukewarm emotions mixed with biochemical processes. I have been at a service with John Wimber and I had such a great time. It was during the "Toronto blessing" and it went on for months. I "experienced" god in every church meeting and in every cellgroup meeting. I had prophesies for other people that became real and after thirty minutes of worship god was "tangible" among us. Experiences are a weak argument for any religion. There are buddhists who burned themselves for their values.. that is amazing and way more convincing, than a warm emotion. There are muslims who are willing to kill themselves for their ideas...impressing, no matter how wrong it is. How can anyone expect me to base my entire life on some "Experience"? Would you invest your entire money (I mean everything!) in something you can not understand? Just because it feels good? Xians expect a lot from unbelievers. It is not just the first prayer...it is to give your entire life. In Germany we have a growing "creative-artistic-feel good xianity" movement (just like the "mosaic church" in L.A.). Their message: "We are nice blokes and it is nice to be together with us. Jesus is cool and we all will have a great time". But under the surface they have an aggressive approach on evangelisation. As long as you are a sinner, we like you and you do not have to do a single thing. Just pray. But once you are a xian, we expect you to grow, to become more like jesus...and so on. Xianity is a sect and experiences are worth nothing. They just feel good and can be impressive.

[lunaticheathen]

Praze Basement Cat! All your cheezburger is his!

Uz a wet cat!!! Ebil cat. Ceiling Cat will pwn u an no moore cheezburgers 4 u. U DO NOT WANT! Srsly. ktxby.

 

OH NOES! Basement Cat haz terrist on hiz side nao! No reel Ceiling Cat gud kitteh cud dis bee!

[Kathlene]

I told myself I would keep out of threads like this, but I can't.lol.

 

Jayl as a christian I seriously do not understand the reasoning behind your arguments to the beautiful people on this site. Are you suggesting they follow Pascal's wager as some sort of insurance policy?

 

Now surely you as a christian would know this is pretty bad. As far as I know, when you accept Jesus and his gift of forgiveness, you don't just keep living your life and think to yourself, well hey Im going to heaven now, its all cool.

 

My opinion and belief is that you give your very soul to God and love him with all your heart and mind and soul. This calls for a radical change in thinking and behaving. It does not mean you can grab a pascals wager and think its all dandy without actually having a relationship with God in the first place.

 

The life journey of a christian is to listen to God and hear Him. It is to be changed from glory to glory, through healing and redemption. To be cleaned and made whole and go on living a life that honors Him and to do his will.

[Phanta]

Poser? Perhaps. I'm more concerned that his interaction with this group has become dominated by arrogant remarks rather than intelligent discourse.

 

This one does dish it right back. When it's an Exer, we call it "spirited debate".

 

Phanta

[Michael]

My opinion and belief is that you give your very soul to God and love him with all your heart and mind and soul. This calls for a radical change in thinking and behaving. It does not mean you can grab a pascals wager and think its all dandy without actually having a relationship with God in the first place.

 

The life journey of a christian is to listen to God and hear Him. It is to be changed from glory to glory, through healing and redemption. To be cleaned and made whole and go on living a life that honors Him and to do his will.

 

I love this post. One xian explains to another xian how to have a "real" relationship with god.

 

Kathelene, what do you mean with:

 

1. "Give your very soul to god" (How and how do I know what is the "very" soul? How does this work in real life?) Some vague emotional thing?

2. "Love god with all your heart, mind and soul" (How? And how do I know that I am doing it right?) Some vague emotional thing?

3. "A radical change in thinking and behaving" (To change what? What is the right way of thinking and behaving? What is the radical thing about it?) Some vague emotional thing?

4. "Having a relationship with god" (How do I know when I have a relationship with god and how do I know that others do not have? You seem to have a special gift in this area.) Some vague emotional thing?

5. "To listen to god and hear him" (How do I know that god is talking and not someone else? How do you know?)

6. "To be changed from glory to glory" (????) Some vague emotional thing?

7. "Through healing and redemption" (What must be healed and why? What part is "sick" and needs healing? Who heals and how? When is someone "healed" Redeemed from what? Evil spirits? How will I know that I am redeemed?)

7. "To be cleaned" (Cleaned from what , how and who cleans?) Some vague emotional thing?

8. "To be made whole" (Why is he incomplete? What is wholeness? How should this happen?) Some vague emotional thing?

9. "A live that honors god" (What kind of live honors god?) Some vague emotional thing?

[Kathlene]

My opinion and belief is that you give your very soul to God and love him with all your heart and mind and soul. This calls for a radical change in thinking and behaving. It does not mean you can grab a pascals wager and think its all dandy without actually having a relationship with God in the first place.

 

The life journey of a christian is to listen to God and hear Him. It is to be changed from glory to glory, through healing and redemption. To be cleaned and made whole and go on living a life that honors Him and to do his will.

 

I love this post. One xian explains to another xian how to have a "real" relationship with god.

 

Kathelene, what do you mean with:

 

1. "Give your very soul to god" (How and how do I know what is the "very" soul? How does this work in real life?)

2. "Love god with all your heart, mind and soul" (How? And how do I know that I am doing it right?)

3. "A radical change in thinking and behaving" (To change what? What is the right way of thinking and behaving? What is the radical thing about it?)

4. "Having a relationship with god" (How do I know when I have a relationship with god and how do I know that others do not have? You seem to have a special gift in this area.)

5. "To listen to god and hear him" (How do I know that god is talking and not someone else? How do you know?)

6. "To be changed from glory to glory" (????)

7. "Through healing and redemption" (What must be healed and why? What part is "sick" and needs healing? Who heals and how? When is someone "healed" Redeemed from what? Evil spirits? How will I know that I am redeemed?)

7. "To be cleaned" (Cleaned from what , how and who cleans?)

8. "To be made whole" (Why is he incomplete? What is wholeness? How should this happen?)

9. "A live that honors god" (What kind of live honors god?)

 

 

I wasn't telling Jayl how to have a real relationship with God. I was telling him, that to suggest to you all to just believe in God through pascal's wager is wrong. It is not an insurance policy to sign on the dotted line. It is an actual step of faith that requires you to build a life of faith in God and then I gave him what my opinions were of what that was. Please don't take my entire post out of context. I will refrain from answering your questions too. I do not by any means wish to derail this thread. I was merely pointing out something to Jayl. Regards, Kathlene.

[Michael]

 

I wasn't telling Jayl how to have a real relationship with God. I was telling him, that to suggest to you all to just believe in God through pascal's wager is wrong. It is not an insurance policy to sign on the dotted line. It is an actual step of faith that requires you to build a life of faith in God and then I gave him what my opinions were of what that was. Please don't take my entire post out of context. I will refrain from answering your questions too. I do not by any means wish to derail this thread. I was merely pointing out something to Jayl. Regards, Kathlene.

 

Hi Kathlene,

 

I probably answered, because I am fed up with "phrases". No one is able to tell me what a "real" xian is, what someone has to do in "real life" to become a beloved child of god. All I get is phrases and phrases and phrases. If you give him an advice, than why not a "hands on advice" he can use to change something in real life? I am asking xians for years and I just do not get an answer. I do not want to be offensive. I just wanted to point out the phrases. Sorry for causing inconvenience.

[Kathlene]

 

I wasn't telling Jayl how to have a real relationship with God. I was telling him, that to suggest to you all to just believe in God through pascal's wager is wrong. It is not an insurance policy to sign on the dotted line. It is an actual step of faith that requires you to build a life of faith in God and then I gave him what my opinions were of what that was. Please don't take my entire post out of context. I will refrain from answering your questions too. I do not by any means wish to derail this thread. I was merely pointing out something to Jayl. Regards, Kathlene.

 

Hi Kathlene,

 

I probably answered, because I am fed up with "phrases". No one is able to tell me what a "real" xian is, what someone has to do in "real life" to become a beloved child of god. All I get is phrases and phrases and phrases. If you give him an advice, than why not a "hands on advice" he can use to change something in real life? I am asking xians for years and I just do not get an answer. I do not want to be offensive. I just wanted to point out the phrases. Sorry for causing inconvenience.

 

 

Its ok Michael. I appreciate where you are coming from and the frustration you are feeling. My post to you wasnt meant to be read in a curt offhand manner. I guess I too am on the defense as well because I often get picked apart in here no matter what I post. I apologise. No convenience caused at all.

[Vixentrox]

My opinion and belief is that you give your very soul to God and love him with all your heart and mind and soul. This calls for a radical change in thinking and behaving. It does not mean you can grab a pascals wager and think its all dandy without actually having a relationship with God in the first place.

 

The life journey of a christian is to listen to God and hear Him. It is to be changed from glory to glory, through healing and redemption. To be cleaned and made whole and go on living a life that honors Him and to do his will.

 

I love this post. One xian explains to another xian how to have a "real" relationship with god.

 

Kathelene, what do you mean with:

 

1. "Give your very soul to god" (How and how do I know what is the "very" soul? How does this work in real life?)

2. "Love god with all your heart, mind and soul" (How? And how do I know that I am doing it right?)

3. "A radical change in thinking and behaving" (To change what? What is the right way of thinking and behaving? What is the radical thing about it?)

4. "Having a relationship with god" (How do I know when I have a relationship with god and how do I know that others do not have? You seem to have a special gift in this area.)

5. "To listen to god and hear him" (How do I know that god is talking and not someone else? How do you know?)

6. "To be changed from glory to glory" (????)

7. "Through healing and redemption" (What must be healed and why? What part is "sick" and needs healing? Who heals and how? When is someone "healed" Redeemed from what? Evil spirits? How will I know that I am redeemed?)

7. "To be cleaned" (Cleaned from what , how and who cleans?)

8. "To be made whole" (Why is he incomplete? What is wholeness? How should this happen?)

9. "A live that honors god" (What kind of live honors god?)

 

 

I wasn't telling Jayl how to have a real relationship with God. I was telling him, that to suggest to you all to just believe in God through pascal's wager is wrong. It is not an insurance policy to sign on the dotted line. It is an actual step of faith that requires you to build a life of faith in God and then I gave him what my opinions were of what that was. Please don't take my entire post out of context. I will refrain from answering your questions too. I do not by any means wish to derail this thread. I was merely pointing out something to Jayl. Regards, Kathlene.

How do you know he isn't filled with the spirit and god is guiding his words? Maybe you are wrong Kathlene.

[Michael]

Its ok Michael. I appreciate where you are coming from and the frustration you are feeling. My post to you wasnt meant to be read in a curt offhand manner. I guess I too am on the defense as well because I often get picked apart in here no matter what I post. I apologise. No convenience caused at all.

 

Yes, sometimes xian phrases are like a "switcher" to me. I just react automatically.

[Michael]

 

How do you know he isn't filled with the spirit and god is guiding his words?

 

In our church we were asked to shout "Jesus is lord". There is some bible verse that implies, that you can only say something like this when you are filled with the spirit. So the ability to shout "jesus is lord" was the proof for the holy spirit in us.

[Antlerman]

Ahh... alright. Thanks for coming clean. It's not something we like here. You're an OK guy. Not to do again, OK?

 

Its not me I swear I couldn't do that to you guys

 

If I am misunderstanding this forgive me

 

The tiger line was a joke nothing more

No, sorry. It was my misunderstanding. I thought you were admitting you were this Jay fellow. It was late. Carry on.

 

 

And BTW Jay, I'm not going to ban someone for having different ideas. We're not a Christian forum here and don't do that. But if I'm impressed you're just jerking folks around for sport that will be another matter. I can't see wasting peoples time for a troll's jollies is something worth anyone's while here. Carry on.... for now.

[Ouroboros]

My opinion and belief is that you give your very soul to God and love him with all your heart and mind and soul. This calls for a radical change in thinking and behaving. It does not mean you can grab a pascals wager and think its all dandy without actually having a relationship with God in the first place.

You got it. I can tell. (The part of believing first, before the wager has any meaning.)

 

The little girl has grown up.

 

Like you said, before we can even think of considering a wager of any kind, we would have to believe first. And we don't. It's that simple.

 

But then what you do or think after you believe, that's your business. I have a relationship with my God too. My God is Nature and Reality, and I have a relationship with it every microsecond of my life. Everything I do is an interaction with it. I'm with God, of God, in God, all the time. Amazing, isn't it?

[Michael]

Like you said, before we can even think of considering a wager of any kind, we would have to believe first. And we don't. It's that simple.

 

Why is it, that we need to believe before we can "make a decision" for god? If one decides to accept jesus (just to be on the secure side) without any emotional involvement and without the believe...why should it not work? There are tents and meetings where you can give your life to jesus, where you can make a public commitment to god. Do you not think that it would be enough to have the impression to be on the right side? I live in a catholic village. Many people go to church just in the case the stuff might be true. I just do not get the point.

[Ouroboros]

Like you said, before we can even think of considering a wager of any kind, we would have to believe first. And we don't. It's that simple.

 

Why is it, that we need to believe before we can "make a decision" for god? If one decides to accept jesus (just to be on the secure side) without any emotional involvement and without the believe...why should it not work? There are tents and meetings where you can give your life to jesus, where you can make a public commitment to god. Do you not think that it would be enough to have the impression to be on the right side? I live in a catholic village. Many people go to church just in the case the stuff might be true. I just do not get the point.

I don't think it is a decision. Belief is a feeling more than a knowledge or reason. After the feeling is there, people will rationalize their belief. They will find arguments and reasons to why they believe, but they're just post-constructions.

[Michael]

Like you said, before we can even think of considering a wager of any kind, we would have to believe first. And we don't. It's that simple.

 

Why is it, that we need to believe before we can "make a decision" for god? If one decides to accept jesus (just to be on the secure side) without any emotional involvement and without the believe...why should it not work? There are tents and meetings where you can give your life to jesus, where you can make a public commitment to god. Do you not think that it would be enough to have the impression to be on the right side? I live in a catholic village. Many people go to church just in the case the stuff might be true. I just do not get the point.

I don't think it is a decision. Belief is a feeling more than a knowledge or reason. After the feeling is there, people will rationalize their belief. They will find arguments and reasons to why they believe, but they're just post-constructions.

It all started for me with reading "mere christianity" by C.S. Lewis. After reading it, I thought that this makes sense and that I will "give my life to jesus". It was not an emotional thing at that moment, no one who put emotional pressure on me, just me and god. Later on, when I started to hang around with other xians, the warm emotions came too. On that day it was a commitment to the idea, that jesus had died for me. I can not remember that I believed. It was more: "It is the logical conclusion to do it now. Lets see what happens". But I will think about it...

[Ouroboros]

It all started for me with reading "mere christianity" by C.S. Lewis. After reading it, I thought that this makes sense and that I will "give my life to jesus". It was not an emotional thing at that moment, no one who put emotional pressure on me, just me and god. Later on, when I started to hang around with other xians, the warm emotions came too. On that day it was a commitment to the idea, that jesus had died for me. I can not remember that I believed. It was more: "It is the logical conclusion to do it now. Lets see what happens". But I will think about it...

Hmm... So perhaps it's more about that we're all different?

 

I know that most of my belief was purely based on my feelings. I turned to Jesus when I was 7, and it was definitely not a decision made from reason or logic, I didn't even know what that meant, but it was a decision made from emotions. I felt like my parents were right, and I decided I had to "pray the sinners prayer." In essence, I was already convinced that Jesus existed, but I had to take that conscious step to give myself over to him.

 

Over the years, when I tried to argue with agnostic/atheist friends, I learned that the logical reasons could not be argued, and the only decision I really made was then was that reason and logic would not support faith.

[Michael]

Hmm... So perhaps it's more about that we're all different?

 

I know that most of my belief was purely based on my feelings. I turned to Jesus when I was 7, and it was definitely not a decision made from reason or logic, I didn't even know what that meant, but it was a decision made from emotions. I felt like my parents were right, and I decided I had to "pray the sinners prayer." In essence, I was already convinced that Jesus existed, but I had to take that conscious step to give myself over to him.

 

Over the years, when I tried to argue with agnostic/atheist friends, I learned that the logical reasons could not be argued, and the only decision I really made was then was that reason and logic would not support faith.

 

While I was shopping I thought about my experience and there were emotions involved. I felt a relief. I was so sure, that it was just a rational decision. The memory is blurry at this point. I guess I have heard how people felt during the conversion and in the end I felt in the past what was expected? I am pretty messed up today. Later faith was definitely an emotional thing. You could not argue with me in those days. That was impossible.

 

I will go to bed early today and think about it tomorrow.

[Vigile]

Like you said, before we can even think of considering a wager of any kind, we would have to believe first. And we don't. It's that simple.

 

Why is it, that we need to believe before we can "make a decision" for god? If one decides to accept jesus (just to be on the secure side) without any emotional involvement and without the believe...why should it not work? There are tents and meetings where you can give your life to jesus, where you can make a public commitment to god. Do you not think that it would be enough to have the impression to be on the right side? I live in a catholic village. Many people go to church just in the case the stuff might be true. I just do not get the point.

 

This is a good point but I think what Hans is saying is that unless one believes, just a little, they aren't going to feel compelled to buy insurance. The people in your village may not be believers but they don't totally discount it either or they wouldn't be playing it safe.

 

Just as an extreme example, no adult puts teeth under their pillow just in case the tooth fairy is real (I don't know if you have this fairy tale in Germany?). Why? Because the very idea would be crazy it's so unbelievable. Adults buy insurance against hell or for heaven because they do believe it at least kind of/sort of.

[Ouroboros]

This is a good point but I think what Hans is saying is that unless one believes, just a little, they aren't going to feel compelled to buy insurance. The people in your village may not be believers but they don't totally discount it either or they wouldn't be playing it safe.

That's right.

 

To buy an insurance, you have to have an expectation that the "bad outcome" is plausible even before you buy it. You won't buy an insurance against Blorgs from planet Xyztruygh because someone is pushing it on your or give you arguments. The arguments must at least be plausible to you, and they must be convincing, so I guess the truth is that it's a combination of reasons and emotions. A person is reasoned into feeling a conviction that it's true, and then the feeling of conviction is what keeps on carrying the person even against counter-evidence.