In And Out Of Faith

[JayL]

But I do think that the experiential aspect is what drives the faith of Christianity. I would say that is more so than in other religions.

 

I think you are wrong on this one. Meditation can bring amazing experiences, drugs can bring amazing experiences, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists and others experience their religion, their philosophy. Those called "experiences" are most of the time lukewarm emotions mixed with biochemical processes. I have been at a service with John Wimber and I had such a great time. It was during the "Toronto blessing" and it went on for months. I "experienced" god in every church meeting and in every cellgroup meeting. I had prophesies for other people that became real and after thirty minutes of worship god was "tangible" among us. Experiences are a weak argument for any religion. There are buddhists who burned themselves for their values.. that is amazing and way more convincing, than a warm emotion. There are muslims who are willing to kill themselves for their ideas...impressing, no matter how wrong it is. How can anyone expect me to base my entire life on some "Experience"? Would you invest your entire money (I mean everything!) in something you can not understand? Just because it feels good? Xians expect a lot from unbelievers. It is not just the first prayer...it is to give your entire life. In Germany we have a growing "creative-artistic-feel good xianity" movement (just like the "mosaic church" in L.A.). Their message: "We are nice blokes and it is nice to be together with us. Jesus is cool and we all will have a great time". But under the surface they have an aggressive approach on evangelisation. As long as you are a sinner, we like you and you do not have to do a single thing. Just pray. But once you are a xian, we expect you to grow, to become more like jesus...and so on.

 

Dear Michael,

 

Boy, am I so glad to find someone from Vineyard church on this board!! We must have a lot in common.

 

<< Xianity is a sect and experiences are worth nothing. They just feel good and can be impressive.>> Of course as a pragmatic, I am for feeling good, etc. But I gotta focus on your posts whenever I have time. You make so many interesting points.

 

Best wishes.

[JayL]

 

How do you know he isn't filled with the spirit and god is guiding his words?

 

In our church we were asked to shout "Jesus is lord". There is some bible verse that implies, that you can only say something like this when you are filled with the spirit. So the ability to shout "jesus is lord" was the proof for the holy spirit in us.

 

 

That is very interesting. But I am not sure that can be a proof of Holy Spirit in someone.

 

For myself, I became convinced of the Holy Spirit within me when I started to experience significant changes in myself. But perhaps the first sign may be that the Bible started to open up to me. It was an amazing experience. I would say that was supernatural.

[JayL]

Like you said, before we can even think of considering a wager of any kind, we would have to believe first. And we don't. It's that simple.

 

Why is it, that we need to believe before we can "make a decision" for god? If one decides to accept jesus (just to be on the secure side) without any emotional involvement and without the believe...why should it not work? There are tents and meetings where you can give your life to jesus, where you can make a public commitment to god. Do you not think that it would be enough to have the impression to be on the right side? I live in a catholic village. Many people go to church just in the case the stuff might be true. I just do not get the point.

 

 

Are you supporting my Pascal's wager insurance idea?? LOL Well, actually I am of an opinion 'believing' is the key. Things just do not work with out believing. And this is where intellectuals stumble.

[JayL]

 

In Germany we have a growing "creative-artistic-feel good xianity" movement (just like the "mosaic church" in L.A.). Their message: "We are nice blokes and it is nice to be together with us. Jesus is cool and we all will have a great time". But under the surface they have an aggressive approach on evangelisation. As long as you are a sinner, we like you and you do not have to do a single thing. Just pray. But once you are a xian, we expect you to grow, to become more like jesus...and so on. Xianity is a sect and experiences are worth nothing. They just feel good and can be impressive.

 

 

I gotta move to Germany and join this group. They sound really cool. LOL

[Dagan]

Things just do not work with out believing. And this is where intellectuals stumble.

 

So religion is for half-wits?

[oddbird1963]

1. is very interesting. But I am not sure that can be a proof of Holy Spirit in someone.

 

2. For myself, I became convinced of the Holy Spirit within me when I started to experience significant changes in myself. But perhaps the first sign may be that the Bible started to open up to me. It was an amazing experience. I would say that was supernatural.

 

1. That may be true, but you contradict your own new testament:

 

"and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. " - 1 Corinthians 12:3

 

2. Once again, the only thing you trust is your own feelings and perceptions. You don't seem to be able to follow facts to their conclusion. When it facts start to get in the way of your fuzzies, you cry "Philosophy Philosophy! God is not a philosophical construct!"

 

You are not a bible student. There is no integrity to your theology.

 

Just admit it. You don't want to think. You just want to feel good in a haze of emotion incited, untested sense of clarity like many drugs provide.

[JayL]

 

Those called "experiences" are most of the time lukewarm emotions mixed with biochemical processes. I have been at a service with John Wimber and I had such a great time. It was during the "Toronto blessing" and it went on for months. I "experienced" god in every church meeting and in every cellgroup meeting. I had prophesies for other people that became real and after thirty minutes of worship god was "tangible" among us. Experiences are a weak argument for any religion. There are buddhists who burned themselves for their values.. that is amazing and way more convincing, than a warm emotion. There are muslims who are willing to kill themselves for their ideas...impressing, no matter how wrong it is. How can anyone expect me to base my entire life on some "Experience"? Would you invest your entire money (I mean everything!) in something you can not understand? Just because it feels good? Xians expect a lot from unbelievers. It is not just the first prayer...it is to give your entire life. In Germany we have a growing "creative-artistic-feel good xianity" movement (just like the "mosaic church" in L.A.). Their message: "We are nice blokes and it is nice to be together with us. Jesus is cool and we all will have a great time". But under the surface they have an aggressive approach on evangelisation. As long as you are a sinner, we like you and you do not have to do a single thing. Just pray. But once you are a xian, we expect you to grow, to become more like jesus...and so on. Xianity is a sect and experiences are worth nothing. They just feel good and can be impressive.

 

 

These are highly interesting points. So you were part of 'charismatic outpouring' and have experienced God's presence at these meetings. Yet, after you left the church and on your own, you recognize those feelings as mere 'biochemical reactions and social suggestions'. That is so fascinating! I think sometimes it really takes even a vibrant committed Christian just to get away from Church, and 'go cold turkey' to lose his faith!

Meeting together with other Christians is pretty critical if you want to remain a Christian. ( But as you may put it, why would you want to, if all this is just a social suggestion! )

 

Perhaps Jesus understood this human tendency. "When two or three of you are gathered in my name, I will be there in the midst." So when you are on your own, it is hard to experience the presence of God. And pretty soon, we are back to being an agnostic and even atheist.

 

I have been thru that cycle a few times! LOL

[JayL]

1. is very interesting. But I am not sure that can be a proof of Holy Spirit in someone.

 

2. For myself, I became convinced of the Holy Spirit within me when I started to experience significant changes in myself. But perhaps the first sign may be that the Bible started to open up to me. It was an amazing experience. I would say that was supernatural.

 

1. That may be true, but you contradict your own new testament:

 

"and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. " - 1 Corinthians 12:3

 

2. Once again, the only thing you trust is your own feelings and perceptions. You don't seem to be able to follow facts to their conclusion. When it facts start to get in the way of your fuzzies, you cry "Philosophy Philosophy! God is not a philosophical construct!"

 

You are not a bible student. There is no integrity to your theology.

 

Just admit it. You don't want to think. You just want to feel good in a haze of emotion incited, untested sense of clarity like many drugs provide.

 

 

 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't listen to me. Why should you? Don't waste your time.

[JayL]

Things just do not work with out believing. And this is where intellectuals stumble.

 

So religion is for half-wits?

 

 

 

Sorry, but that's the way it is, my friend.

[Dagan]

I think sometimes it really takes even a vibrant committed Christian just to get away from Church, and 'go cold turkey' to lose his faith!

Meeting together with other Christians is pretty critical if you want to remain a Christian.

 

So Christianity is a group delusion?

 

And if you stop going, you're making a choice to "lose" your faith?

[JayL]

This is a good point but I think what Hans is saying is that unless one believes, just a little, they aren't going to feel compelled to buy insurance. The people in your village may not be believers but they don't totally discount it either or they wouldn't be playing it safe.

That's right.

 

To buy an insurance, you have to have an expectation that the "bad outcome" is plausible even before you buy it. You won't buy an insurance against Blorgs from planet Xyztruygh because someone is pushing it on your or give you arguments. The arguments must at least be plausible to you, and they must be convincing, so I guess the truth is that it's a combination of reasons and emotions. A person is reasoned into feeling a conviction that it's true, and then the feeling of conviction is what keeps on carrying the person even against counter-evidence.

 

 

That is actually a very good point.

 

 

Another thing is that the death hangs over all of us like universal doom. And people are motivated to make some sense of their ending. Is there something beyond death, etc. So in a way people have rational reason to seek out insurance.

[JayL]

I think sometimes it really takes even a vibrant committed Christian just to get away from Church, and 'go cold turkey' to lose his faith!

Meeting together with other Christians is pretty critical if you want to remain a Christian.

 

So Christianity is a group delusion?

 

And if you stop going, you're making a choice to "lose" your faith?

 

 

 

That is one way of looking at things.

[par4dcourse]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't listen to me. Why should you? Don't waste your time.

 

Best advice I've seen in this whole thread. That I can do!

[JayL]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't listen to me. Why should you? Don't waste your time.

 

Best advice I've seen in this whole thread. That I can do!

 

 

Thanks.

[Vigile]

Things just do not work with out believing. And this is where intellectuals stumble.

 

So religion is for half-wits?

 

 

 

Sorry, but that's the way it is, my friend.

 

[florduh]

Now we're getting to the best fuckin' apologetics I ever heard!

 

I can see the little yellow bus now, the large banner on the side says, "Half-Wits for Jesus"

[JayL]

Now we're getting to the best fuckin' apologetics I ever heard!

 

I can see the little yellow bus now, the large banner on the side says, "Half-Wits for Jesus"

 

 

 

I think John Wimber's favorite quote was 'I am a fool for Christ. whose fool are you?'.

 

Well, it was a bit insulting because it assumes you are a fool. LOL. I presume you are not one. Paul Newman once made a movie called 'Nobody's fool'. And I wonder whether he was responding to Wimber. LOL But I have not seen that movie.

 

Anyhow, the quote does resonate with that 'half wit' remark.

[Deva]

Well, I am somewhat familiar with physics. And a couple of years ago, I came up with a proof of God's existence based on physics and mathematics. I showed the proof to 2 PhD scientists and they were quite impressed. ( One in chemistry and one in meteorology ). So was my cousin who is an M.D.

 

OK, lets see the proof based on physics and mathematics. I am not proficient in higher math myself, but we have some math teachers and professors on here - some of us should be able to understand it. So let's have it.

As a physician with a degree in chemistry with a minor in physics, I volunteer to analyze the proof of god's existence. It will be interesting to see something that hasn't been hashed to death.

 

My guess would be that it's based on probability theory which has already been tried.

 

 

Thank you, Dr. Shyone. Yes, my proof is completely original. And it convinced me enough. It is not based on probability. In fact I worked on this because I am not totally happy with probability approach. They make good cases but the nature is always surprising and to talk about the 'Creator' concept based on likelihood always leaves me with some after taste. My proof is completely different and it is actually closer to information theory approach. It is a deductive approach. That is why I call a 'proof'. However I am reluctant to post it here. Sorry. If I knew you personally I will talk to you in person and you can make up your own mind. But in this kind of discussion board, nah. I am not going to talk about the miracles I have experienced nor my proof that convinced me scientifically. We will just discuss publically known info.

 

Sorry. But, hey, this is the 'lion den', not my living room!

 

So I come back after 4 days and get this as the "proof"???!!! Not surprising. No surprise at all since we are plainly dealing with a troll.

Too bad Christianity has such poor representatives.

 

That Jay won't post it plainly shows it won't stand the scrutiny of people who really know physics and mathematics. What a sham and a waste of time to go on with this troll.

[bdp]

 

 

 

Another thing is that the death hangs over all of us like universal doom. And people are motivated to make some sense of their ending. Is there something beyond death, etc. So in a way people have rational reason to seek out insurance.

 

Nope, you're just plain wrong here. Death is just the conclusion of life, nothing more or less - I don't fear it and I don't even think 'beyond' it, much less make 'sense' of it. We're not all the same where concepts of death are concerned. I'm ready any time.

[JayL]

 

That Jay won't post it plainly shows it won't stand the scrutiny of people who really know physics and mathematics. What a sham and a waste of time to go on with this troll.

 

 

Well, so it goes.

[JayL]

 

 

 

Another thing is that the death hangs over all of us like universal doom. And people are motivated to make some sense of their ending. Is there something beyond death, etc. So in a way people have rational reason to seek out insurance.

 

Nope, you're just plain wrong here. Death is just the conclusion of life, nothing more or less - I don't fear it and I don't even think 'beyond' it, much less make 'sense' of it. We're not all the same where concepts of death are concerned. I'm ready any time.

 

 

That may be a healthy attitude towards death.

 

But then how do you conceptualize life? Is it 'all sound and fury' signifying nothing? Or do you take pleasure at your past accomplishments and are satisfied over all?

[Shyone]

 

But then how do you conceptualize life? Is it 'all sound and fury' signifying nothing? Or do you take pleasure at your past accomplishments and are satisfied over all?

I wonder if Shakespeare got that from Ecclesiastes? It's all meaningless, I tell ya!

 

 

You know, a thought occurred to me. All those people in the first century were really concerned about the end of the world. Imagine, for a moment you are a 25 year old mother in about 50 AD in Corinth. You would be concerned about the people you love, your children, father, brothers, husband, lovers... That's what "end of the world means" to anyone in particular. They weren't so concerned with the physical detritus of civilization, but the people.

 

Well, guess what. The world ended. Her worst fears came true. Everyone she loved, everyone she knew, her children and husband, and even she herself all perished.

 

It happens every 100 years or so, and it drags out for so long that people don't realize it, but the world has "ended" many times. But then, our children have children, and human life goes on, but the immediate concerns are not for the future of humanity, but for those who are known and are living. There isn't much reason to worry about those long dead, and we can't really worry about those who haven't been born yet (except in a general sense).

 

And that's why I don't worry about the end of the world.

[bdp]

Is it 'all sound and fury' signifying nothing?

 

Pretty much.

[NotBlinded]

Is it 'all sound and fury' signifying nothing?

That would be Christianity as commonly understood.

[Phanta]

That Jay won't post it plainly shows it won't stand the scrutiny of people who really know physics and mathematics. What a sham and a waste of time to go on with this troll.

 

 

Well, so it goes.

 

Poo-tee-weet.