In And Out Of Faith

[JayL]

 

Who said your god is the only one to believe in

 

You say Muhammed is scumbag, islam could still be the one true religion.

 

who I am to question the bible

 

a person using the gift I got from your god supposedly to examine his book of course you don't see it that way but anyway

 

 

To me, Jesus Christ has considerable credibility. He is a very good man, a Jewish rabbi, non violent, lots of good moral teachings, Golden Rule etc. I find the guy Mohammed to be quite objectionable. And having studied the history of Islam, I really do not have much respect for Allah. For example, Allah makes too many rule exceptions to make Mohammed's little penis happy. It may be just me. But somehow, I just cannot respect a god like that.

 

 

You can question the Bible and I encourage you to. But I feel I can make some correction when you bring in material outside of the Bible - like God is 'omnipotent'. What does that mean?? Can God create a stone big enough that he cannot lift? Do you see how stupid that concept can become??

[JayL]

You think 'He can do anything because he is God'.

 

According to the Bible, he can. Did you even read all those references I posted?

 

 

Oh yeah. God can turn himself into Satan. Because He is God?? Duh!

[Guest Valk0010]

 

Who said your god is the only one to believe in

 

You say Muhammed is scumbag, islam could still be the one true religion.

 

who I am to question the bible

 

a person using the gift I got from your god supposedly to examine his book of course you don't see it that way but anyway

 

 

To me, Jesus Christ has considerable credibility. He is a very good man, a Jewish rabbi, non violent, lots of good moral teachings, Golden Rule etc. I find the guy Mohammed to be quite objectionable. And having studied the history of Islam, I really do not have much respect for Allah. For example, Allah makes too many rule exceptions to make Mohammed's little penis happy. It may be just me. But somehow, I just cannot respect a god like that.

 

 

You can question the Bible and I encourage you to. But I feel I can make some correction when you bring in material outside of the Bible - like God is 'omnipotent'. What does that mean?? Can God create a stone big enough that he cannot lift? Do you see how stupid that concept can become??

i can't respect the god jehovah

 

your are a expection to the christian that I have meet, and I meet quite a few that would say god is all powerful he could do anything.

 

Anyway I been arguing with you to long tonight, not your fault just you got me on a roll

[Vigile]

BUT guess what? God has changed.

 

Hitler changed. The Jews can now breathe a sigh of relief and embrace this man and love him.

 

I am the LORD. I do not change. Mal 3.6a

 

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Heb 13.8

 

For me, I am a chicken. I don't want terrifying excitement of visiting hell.

 

You turn your brain off because you are too scared to examine the evidence in an objective way. We are braver than you and as a result we are free while you remain shackled.

[Guest Valk0010]

You think 'He can do anything because he is God'.

 

According to the Bible, he can. Did you even read all those references I posted?

 

 

Oh yeah. God can turn himself into Satan. Because He is God?? Duh!

Could the perception of god in the bible be wrong, well duh

 

Satan is just what anthropologist would call binomial opposition

the character is needed to make a religion work

 

All the bible is to me, is just some bronze age people trying to make sense of the world

 

Can god make himself satan no, but he could destory satan or better yet not allow some situation like that to happen

 

He can limit himself I do recognize that, but like I said

 

He doesn't have to and can hypothetically since he can go anything he wanted, make a plan that not involved hell or satan and accomplish all of his goals

[Galien]

So JayL, how has being a christian made you a better person?

[Guest Valk0010]

So JayL, how has being a christian made you a better person?

 

I would venture to say it has made him a worse person but anyhow, enough out of me.

[JayL]

 

I actually didn't

 

Been taught in the catholic school I went to, when I ask my protestant christian uncle of fifty years he said it is also true, in fact I have never heard otherwise

 

I am just applying the concepts in a different way then they expected

 

just one example of how your wrong on you understanding of the bible

 

http://www.raptureready.com/featured/funk/ooo.html

 

 

I was wrong to say that. It is not your fault. It's all these theological concept people buy into without studying the Bible. They think they know something because they sound so profound. But they fail to describe the real God of the Bible. They start from this kind of stupid philosophical concepts and next thing you know, they are accusing God of bloody murder.

[JayL]

So JayL, how has being a christian made you a better person?

 

 

I stopped being a racist for one. God intervened and told me to stop.

[Galien]

Cant answer my questions?

[Guest Valk0010]

 

I actually didn't

 

Been taught in the catholic school I went to, when I ask my protestant christian uncle of fifty years he said it is also true, in fact I have never heard otherwise

 

I am just applying the concepts in a different way then they expected

 

just one example of how your wrong on you understanding of the bible

 

http://www.raptureready.com/featured/funk/ooo.html

 

 

I was wrong to say that. It is not your fault. It's all these theological concept people buy into without studying the Bible. They think they know something because they sound so profound. But they fail to describe the real God of the Bible. They start from this kind of stupid philosophical concepts and next thing you know, they are accusing God of bloody murder.

 

Okay prove it, prove all the Christians I have ever asked about this wrong. Some very smart and well versed in the bible. I am curious, because I have a feeling you did the same thing I did in my last few months as a christian.

 

And that is morph your view of the bible to fit evidence and reality.

 

Maybe I am wrong, but for the sake of space please make another post in the lions den on it.

[JayL]

BUT guess what? God has changed.

 

Hitler changed. The Jews can now breathe a sigh of relief and embrace this man and love him.

 

I am the LORD. I do not change. Mal 3.6a

 

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Heb 13.8

 

For me, I am a chicken. I don't want terrifying excitement of visiting hell.

 

You turn your brain off because you are too scared to examine the evidence in an objective way. We are braver than you and as a result we are free while you remain shackled.

 

 

It is true some extent. God of the OT is like Hitler. You may think you are Ok and guiltless but God is not happy with you. Actually He is not happy with most humans. And God gave you physical death so your life is just a few scores of years and He will judge you and give you even worse second death.

 

It is not that He is evil. He just sees you less than perfect. You are defective, my friend, according to His extremely high standards. And thus you cannot have eternal life. That is the way God sees it.

 

Is this fair?? That is hard to say.

 

I was inaccurate in saying 'God has changed'. The way we perceive and experience God has changed. What really happened is that Jesus Christ came between God and us. And because of Jesus Christ we experience peaceful God.

[JayL]

 

Okay prove it, prove all the Christians I have ever asked about this wrong. Some very smart and well versed in the bible. I am curious, because I have a feeling you did the same thing I did in my last few months as a christian.

 

And that is morph your view of the bible to fit evidence and reality.

 

Maybe I am wrong, but for the sake of space please make another post in the lions den on it.

 

 

It is just that people accept this kind of 'theological' notions without thinking. My advise is just ask question. You say God is omnipotent. What does that mean?? That God can do ANYTHING?? I mean, what kind of idiocy is that?? Do you think God has any quality of his own. For example, the Bible teaches that God is light and there is no darkness in Him. Can God have darkness in Him? The answer is no!! So He is not exactly omnipotent according to your stupid definition, is He??

 

I am saying, give up your stupid notions. Just stick to the Bible. Are we talking about the God of the Bible? Or are we talking about God inside your little mind?? Which is it??

 

I am sorry to sound impatient. But sometimes, these things really drive me nuts.

[JayL]

So JayL, how has being a christian made you a better person?

 

I would venture to say it has made him a worse person but anyhow, enough out of me.

 

 

 

Sorry for my outbursts. I am bit tired. I gotta get some sleep.

 

Thanks for putting up with me on these discussions.

 

Good night and best wishes to you.

[Guest Valk0010]

 

Okay prove it, prove all the Christians I have ever asked about this wrong. Some very smart and well versed in the bible. I am curious, because I have a feeling you did the same thing I did in my last few months as a christian.

 

And that is morph your view of the bible to fit evidence and reality.

 

Maybe I am wrong, but for the sake of space please make another post in the lions den on it.

 

 

It is just that people accept this kind of 'theological' notions without thinking. My advise is just ask question. You say God is omnipotent. What does that mean?? That God can do ANYTHING?? I mean, what kind of idiocy is that?? Do you think God has any quality of his own. For example, the Bible teaches that God is light and there is no darkness in Him. Can God have darkness in Him? The answer is no!! So He is not exactly omnipotent according to your stupid definition, is He??

 

I am saying, give up your stupid notions. Just stick to the Bible. Are we talking about the God of the Bible? Or are we talking about God inside your little mind?? Which is it??

I though we could get off a tad civil

 

I am beginning to really fucking hate your attitude

 

I do stick to the bible dipshit

 

it is idiocy, but as far as I can see, that is something to add to the many reasons I reject christianity

 

Who says your right out of the 38 thousand or denominations of xtianity.

 

Like I said he can limit himself ie, not allow any darkness(I would guess by his own creation since he created everything) to be apart of everything, but he can do anything he wants. That darkness bit is a limitation

 

Now he is a question, if he can't do everything, and I would guess you would also say he can't know or be everywhere, then why is he god

 

but fuck you for taking that attitude with me

 

I can have a outburst to you know

[lunaticheathen]

It is true some extent. God of the OT is like Hitler.

 

Wow, THAT'S a convincing argument!

 

You may think you are Ok and guiltless but God is not happy with you. Actually He is not happy with most humans. And God gave you physical death so your life is just a few scores of years and He will judge you and give you even worse second death.

 

Fuck him.

 

It is not that He is evil.

 

Bullshit.

 

He just sees you less than perfect. You are defective, my friend, according to His extremely high standards. And thus you cannot have eternal life. That is the way God sees it.

 

Is this fair?? That is hard to say.

 

No it's not hard to say. IT'S NOT FAIR. It's FASCIST. Because, as you said, God is Hitler.

 

I was inaccurate in saying 'God has changed'. The way we perceive and experience God has changed. What really happened is that Jesus Christ came between God and us. And because of Jesus Christ we experience peaceful God.

 

Not really. Jesus said many times that most people would end up in Hell, and he told parables to DELIBERATELY CONFUSE people so they would GO TO HELL. He also killed a bunch of innocent pigs right after he cast demons into them.

Jesus isn't this awesome peaceful dude just because you keep going "He was soooooo AWESOME, you can't say otherwise, lalalalalalalalalalalalalalala I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" In reality, he probably never even existed, but for the sake of argument, in the Gospels, he was snarky and nasty more than once.

[Guest Valk0010]

It is true some extent. God of the OT is like Hitler.

 

Wow, THAT'S a convincing argument!

 

You may think you are Ok and guiltless but God is not happy with you. Actually He is not happy with most humans. And God gave you physical death so your life is just a few scores of years and He will judge you and give you even worse second death.

 

Fuck him.

 

It is not that He is evil.

 

Bullshit.

 

He just sees you less than perfect. You are defective, my friend, according to His extremely high standards. And thus you cannot have eternal life. That is the way God sees it.

 

Is this fair?? That is hard to say.

 

No it's not hard to say. IT'S NOT FAIR. It's FASCIST. Because, as you said, God is Hitler.

 

I was inaccurate in saying 'God has changed'. The way we perceive and experience God has changed. What really happened is that Jesus Christ came between God and us. And because of Jesus Christ we experience peaceful God.

 

Not really. Jesus said many times that most people would end up in Hell, and he told parables to DELIBERATELY CONFUSE people so they would GO TO HELL. He also killed a bunch of innocent pigs right after he cast demons into them.

Jesus isn't this awesome peaceful dude just because you keep going "He was soooooo AWESOME, you can't say otherwise, lalalalalalalalalalalalalalala I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" In reality, he probably never even existed, but for the sake of argument, in the Gospels, he was snarky and nasty more than once.

Thank you

[Vigile]

BUT guess what? God has changed.

 

Hitler changed. The Jews can now breathe a sigh of relief and embrace this man and love him.

 

I am the LORD. I do not change. Mal 3.6a

 

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Heb 13.8

 

For me, I am a chicken. I don't want terrifying excitement of visiting hell.

 

You turn your brain off because you are too scared to examine the evidence in an objective way. We are braver than you and as a result we are free while you remain shackled.

 

 

It is true some extent. God of the OT is like Hitler. You may think you are Ok and guiltless but God is not happy with you. Actually He is not happy with most humans. And God gave you physical death so your life is just a few scores of years and He will judge you and give you even worse second death.

 

It is not that He is evil. He just sees you less than perfect. You are defective, my friend, according to His extremely high standards. And thus you cannot have eternal life. That is the way God sees it.

 

Is this fair?? That is hard to say.

 

I was inaccurate in saying 'God has changed'. The way we perceive and experience God has changed. What really happened is that Jesus Christ came between God and us. And because of Jesus Christ we experience peaceful God.

 

I pity you, I really do. You live in a fairy tale world with monsters and demons in the closet. Your response here epitomizes precisely what is evil about the xian belief system.

 

Anyway, I've tried to communicate with you, but it's clear to see you are unwilling to engage your brain and can only quote back to me simple-minded xian cliche so I don't see this conversation going anywhere. I never had much hope in it but I gave it a shot because you seem like a nice person despite your ugly beliefs.

[bdp]

 

 

Can God create a stone big enough that he cannot lift?

 

Can 'god' make a millstone big enough to hang around his own neck, and a sea big enough to cast himself into?

[Ouroboros]

It is true some extent. God of the OT is like Hitler.

Awesome! You're such a cool Christian. I mean, no other Christian has ever admitted that.

 

You may think you are Ok and guiltless but God is not happy with you.

Right. He created us. He caused it (he's the First Cause... or isn't he?)

 

And now he wants to punish us for his crappy design.

 

Actually He is not happy with most humans. And God gave you physical death so your life is just a few scores of years and He will judge you and give you even worse second death.

And he's doing an super-duper job of convincing people that he exists. He does it through the actions and words of other faulty humans instead of direct communication and presence.

 

God could easily have left Jesus to stay here on Earth. Hovering over ground, meeting with people, healing the sick everywhere, to show his supernatural powers and existence for everyone. But no. He had to hide, and let the work over to the crappy humans with subjective views of everything. Every Christian who interprets the Bible his way is the "real" way for everyone else to follow. Such a stupid design.

 

Oh wait. God made a crappy design of humans, so his solution was to have a crappy designed religion as well to save them. Makes sense. What does it say about God? That God is a crappy God.

 

It is not that He is evil.

Of course not. Evil doesn't really exist. Evil was never created.

 

Oh, wait, you think Satan created Evil? Satan created something that was Not-God? Wow. He's pretty powerful! Essentially Satan has powers on the level as God himself. Satan is on the level of God. That is... wow, just wow. Think about it. How can an angel, a finite being, create something outside of God, unless that angel is just as powerful as God himself?

 

He just sees you less than perfect. You are defective, my friend, according to His extremely high standards.

Well, he failed in quality assurance when he created Satan, the world, and us. That points to a defective process, which points to a defective God.

 

Ah, I know, your going to say that God designed it this way because of Free Will. Won't you? Well, then Free Will is the reason for a faulty and defective design. Simple logic.

 

And thus you cannot have eternal life. That is the way God sees it.

What is it? Do we have eternal life in Hell, suffering for eternity, or are we dead and not living and suffering somehow still? I don't get it.

 

Does life mean living or does it mean inanimate but yet have senses? What do you exactly mean with "eternal life"? Is it just a metaphor for something else, or is it literal?

 

Is this fair?? That is hard to say.

You mean that the central questions about God's salvation and Christianity are unresolved? Gasp! The most important message to the world has holes in it. We're supposed to just take it all for granted and make assumptions, so we can be saved.

 

Basically your asking us to accept certain things without proper explanation. That is the reason why it is not fair. Why should people be made to accept and believe your religion without adequate foundation or explanations? If your religion was true, you should have a perfect and logical answer for EVERY QUESTION IN THE UNIVERSE. God is on your side. The Holy Spirit teaches you about everything (according to the Bible). And yet, you're without answers when it gets to the core questions.

 

That's the reason why it is not reasonable to believe you.

 

I was inaccurate in saying 'God has changed'. The way we perceive and experience God has changed. What really happened is that Jesus Christ came between God and us. And because of Jesus Christ we experience peaceful God.

Why did God have to change our perception and experience of God? He hired a new image consultant?

 

Maybe Satan was God's previous media attaché. He did a crappy job, so he hired Jesus instead. Makes sense.

[Ouroboros]

To me, Jesus Christ has considerable credibility. He is a very good man, a Jewish rabbi, non violent, lots of good moral teachings, Golden Rule etc.

You know that the Golden Rule existed before Jesus, right? There are examples of similar concepts from many other pre-Jesus sources.

 

I find the guy Mohammed to be quite objectionable. And having studied the history of Islam, I really do not have much respect for Allah. For example, Allah makes too many rule exceptions to make Mohammed's little penis happy. It may be just me. But somehow, I just cannot respect a god like that.

I think Allah and JHWH are very similar. Just as violent. Israel killed millions of people (already back then), in the name of God. That's violent. And I'm sure you support that. So what does it make you? Just as bad as any Muslim today.

 

And you're really stuck on the Muslims, aren't you? Basically, so far, what I can hear is that you are a Christian because you are so frigging pissed at the Muslims. Islam is sooooooo evil that Christianity must be true. Am I right?

 

You can question the Bible and I encourage you to. But I feel I can make some correction when you bring in material outside of the Bible - like God is 'omnipotent'. What does that mean?? Can God create a stone big enough that he cannot lift? Do you see how stupid that concept can become??

Of course that is stupid. God doesn't exist, so how could he?

[Tabula Rasa]

Jay, there's something very simple that completely pulls out the foundation of,and discredits christianity. The story of the Fall. God creates Adam and Eve, then creates the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. He tells them they can eat from any tree except this one, the tree whose fruit he made the most appealing.That they'd die if they eat from it. Keep in mind they had no idea what death was. Never mind the serpent, basically what God did was Entrapment. Being all knowing,and knowing they'd be curious(He made them that way), he knew they'd fail his test and eat from the tree he told them not to.

 

So, if the God of the Bible is so utterly all powerful and transcendent, why couldn't he just forgive them and avoid the thousands of years of misery to come. Or for that matter, why tempt them with the tree at all? There would be no need for Christ's sacrifice.

 

Judging by how the fall of man makes no sense,I have to call bullshit on Judaism, Christianity and Islam. If there's an all powerful God, it isn't the narrowminded sadistic bully of the bible and koran. And you know what? I don't care if I'm wrong.

If bible god is the true god, I'd rather go to hell than bow to that sadist forever.

 

[Phanta]

Yes, He may seem " an evil, angry, tyrannical, tantrum-throwing criminal " in some people's eyes - esp. those who were having just good times in Sodom - but God will have none of that. He believes in cleansing what He considers evil.

 

So God cleanses evil with more evil? Read these verses from the OT, and try to tell me that God didn't do immoral things in the Old Testament.

 

God tells the Israelites it is ok to rape:

Numbers 31

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

 

God says that a father may sell her daughter as a sex slave to another man:

Exodus 21:7-11

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

 

God endorses slavery and says that you can beat your slave as much as you like, as long as you don’t kill them:

Exodus 21:20-21

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.

 

God sends a group of bears to rip children to shreds simply because they called his prophet an old baldy:

2 Kings 2:23-24

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces.

 

God says that homosexuals, witches, children who curse their parents, nonbelievers and people who work on the Sabbath should all be stoned to death:

Leviticus 20:13

If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.”

Exodus 22:17

“You should not let a sorceress live.”

2 Chronicles 15:12-13

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

 

Leviticus 20:9

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense.

Exodus 31:12-15

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.'

 

God orders the Israelites to wipe out entire nations, including men, women and children. This is called genocide, and it’s one of the worst and most tragic things that humans have done throughout history. I know you will say that these nations deserved this. But please think about it. Would it have been right for us to wipe out all Germans during WWII? Why would God have told the Israelites to kill innocent babies?

 

It's almost like there's something else going on here...

 

Phanta

[Rev R]

I am saying, give up your stupid notions. Just stick to the Bible. Are we talking about the God of the Bible? Or are we talking about God inside your little mind?? Which is it??

"god" inside the Bible : a product of the mind

"god" inside theology: a product of the mind

"god" inside "your little mind": a product of the mind

 

 

This is where your god exists, inside the mind. Why put one mind over another?

 

Perhaps you should follow your own advice, give up your stupid notions.

[JayL]

Yes, He may seem " an evil, angry, tyrannical, tantrum-throwing criminal " in some people's eyes - esp. those who were having just good times in Sodom - but God will have none of that. He believes in cleansing what He considers evil.

 

So God cleanses evil with more evil? Read these verses from the OT, and try to tell me that God didn't do immoral things in the Old Testament.

 

God orders the Israelites to wipe out entire nations, including men, women and children. This is called genocide, and it’s one of the worst and most tragic things that humans have done throughout history. I know you will say that these nations deserved this. But please think about it. Would it have been right for us to wipe out all Germans during WWII? Why would God have told the Israelites to kill innocent babies?

 

 

Phanta

 

 

My answer is, why worry about the ancient history? No one knows what really happened. Yes, from these passages, Moses and the God of Old Testament come out looking like Hitler and Eichman. But nobody follows Moses and we don't follow any rules God laid out in the Old Testament! So why worry about it? And my view is that we don't really have all the facts to make the best judgment. So just move on and live in the New Testament. If it really bothers you, just cut out the Old Testament like Marcion did and just stick to the New Testament. It is OK.

 

You guys are like junior high school history students arguing how horrible America is because we nuked Hiroshima. My stance is, hey, enjoy the country we have now and try to do what is right today.