In And Out Of Faith

[Michael]

Despite some bad churches, and some bad Christians, Christianity as whole is not THAT bad.

 

 

Despite the fact that nearly every church I have ever seen (and I have seen a lot) is a dysfunctional system and many bad and arrogant xians, a cruel and inhuman god, a holy book that is pain in the ass.... and so on, Xianity as a whole is not THAT bad.

[Guest Valk0010]

 

Now you might not have the foresight for this but give me a answer to this problem

God knows the future right?

 

Why not avoid the murder, he is god. He knows that he is going to kill people.

He says shall not kill to the Israelite.

 

Then he is a murderer if he doesn't avoid the murders he knew would happen in his name. He violated his own rules absolute and pure rules if he knows the future.

 

Also would you support the kinds of campaigns of the OT, if they were happening today, or you were around back then.

 

 

 

Yes, God knows the future. " Why not avoid the killing? " This is one of major misconceptions people have. He cannot avoid it. God knows the future but He cannot control it - because He cannot control people. God gave people essential freedom and they make decisions of their own. And God respects those decisions.

 

For example, if people decides to reject the gift of salvation in Jesus Christ, there is nothing God can do to stop them from falling into hell along with Satan and evil angels. Does that make Him a criminal? I don't think so.

 

Also on those campaigns in Canaan, I don't think we have all the facts about what kind of people Canaanites were. Were they people like you and me? Perhaps a bit bloodier? We don't know. That is why I cannot make any good judgement. Furthermore I am a chicken. I just want to avoid hell. I will let you have the moral high ground.

 

What facts you need outside your own book

 

Then he is not god if there is a situation he can't avoid. Remember he could do anything, he is god.

 

If god tells you to kill a child, just play the hypothetical, would it be a good thing.

 

I think you would do it, and you would think it is a good thing

 

I don't think murder is right in any circumstance.

 

God gives us freewill right. But there is a difference between having the ability to make a choice and a particular action

 

You pray right that god interferes on your behalf, why not interfer is such a way that things would not come down, to where the Israelits or The flood would need to happen

[JayL]

I am telling you. Some people are not chickens!

 

And because they are not chickens, they will burn in hell? And all the chickens who believed in God just to play it safe will get to spend eternity in heaven?

 

 

Yeah, pretty much. When it comes to hell, I'd rather play safe. I don't want to be a hero. Sorry.

[Carmen]

Yes, God knows the future. " Why not avoid the killing? " This is one of major misconceptions people have. He cannot avoid it. God knows the future but He cannot control it - because He cannot control people. God gave people essential freedom and they make decisions of their own. And God respects those decisions.

 

Why would God even create us if he knew that so many people would choose not to follow him. God RESPECTS our decisions??!! That's ridiculous. According to your dogma, God's idea of respect is called "believe in me or BURN."

 

I just want to avoid hell. I will let you have the moral high ground.

 

So the people who have the "moral high ground" are going to hell, and the chickens are going to heaven? This may have already been quoted on this thread, but as Mark Twain said "Heaven for the climate, hell for the company."

[Galien]

And what do you mean you can go in and out of faith? Its not a fucking drive through, you either believe in god and love him with all your heart soul mind and strength or you dont. If i was god I would vomit on the lot of you for your lack of commitment, your shallowness and complete misunderstanding of the message of christ in the first place, not to mention the shitty way u treat everyone else including each other. Grow some actual gonads and stop being scared of hell or a bit of damn self reliance then you wont need the church.

[JayL]

 

Remember he could do anything, he is god.

 

If god tells you to kill a child, just play the hypothetical, would it be a good thing.

 

I think you would do it, and you would think it is a good thing

 

I don't think murder is right in any circumstance.

 

 

You think 'He can do anything because he is God'. Perhaps in your mind!!!! That is not the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible can NOT do anything. I just don't know where people get this kind of idiotic ideas about God! Drives me crazy. Should I repeat it again?? God can NOT do anything your fertile little mind can make up.

 

How about this? Can God turn Himself into Satan?? The answer is NO. Is that clear??

 

If God tells ms to kill a child, is that a good thing? I don't know. I need more facts.

[Carmen]

You think 'He can do anything because he is God'.

 

According to the Bible, he can. Did you even read all those references I posted?

[JayL]

 

If God can commit immoral acts and yet still be considered good, how do we even define the "good" and "moral"? In this kind of system, good is whatever God commands us to do. Doing good is submitting to God. So if God told someone to commit rape or murder, it would be consider moral, because it was a command from God.

 

 

Well, I think you have just described Islam and not Christianity. In Christianity, God always does Good and much better than our own standards. Read the entire New Testament. It is really great from moral standards. Now if you talk about the Old Testament, we have a lot to argue. But at least, could we agree that the New Testament is great?? In the New Testament, God never tells yo to rape or murder. It is simply not there! Hello???

[JayL]

You think 'He can do anything because he is God'.

 

According to the Bible, he can. Did you even read all those references I posted?

 

 

Oh yeah. God can turn himself into Satan. Because He is God. Duh!

[Galien]

Did god tell you this when you have your weekly coffee or did your friend the evangelist loan u his fax machine? I know the voices get confusing Jay, its okay, we are here for you.

[Guest Valk0010]

 

Remember he could do anything, he is god.

 

If god tells you to kill a child, just play the hypothetical, would it be a good thing.

 

I think you would do it, and you would think it is a good thing

 

I don't think murder is right in any circumstance.

 

 

You think 'He can do anything because he is God'. Perhaps in your mind!!!! That is not the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible can NOT do anything. I just don't know where people get this kind of idiotic ideas about God! Drives me crazy. Should I repeat it again?? God can NOT do anything your fertile little mind can make up.

 

How about this? Can God turn Himself into Satan?? The answer is NO. Is that clear??

 

If God tells ms to kill a child, is that a good thing? I don't know. I need more facts.

 

Then he is not omnipotent

 

I absolutely get what your saying and I am saying your wrong

 

Well scratch omnipotent(all powerful) and maybe even omniscient from the list of omniscient( all knowing)and omnipresent(everywhere)

 

Before he created the world he saw the most obtuse way to design the situation and said, aaahhh i will do that one.

 

So he has to murder how convenient????

 

He before the start of the world could have done anything he wanted. That is what I have been saying all along

 

He could have made everything happen without the bloodshed, even he could follow a scenario that we couldn't make.

[Carmen]

Well, I think you have just described Islam and not Christianity. In Christianity, God always does Good and much better than our own standards. Read the entire New Testament. It is really great from moral standards. Now if you talk about the Old Testament, we have a lot to argue. But at least, could we agree that the New Testament is great?? In the New Testament, God never tells yo to rape or murder. It is simply not there! Hello???

 

So what? If the Bible is God's holy word, it doesn't matter how good God is in the NT because the OT is a part of the Bible right along with the NT! If the Bible is God's holy word, then the Old Testament is his holy word too, and that includes the rape, murder, and disgusting immoral acts by God. It doesn't matter how good you think the NT was. You're cherry picking the parts of the Bible that you like and turning a blind-eye to the awful parts.

[Guest Valk0010]

 

If God can commit immoral acts and yet still be considered good, how do we even define the "good" and "moral"? In this kind of system, good is whatever God commands us to do. Doing good is submitting to God. So if God told someone to commit rape or murder, it would be consider moral, because it was a command from God.

 

 

Well, I think you have just described Islam and not Christianity. In Christianity, God always does Good and much better than our own standards. Read the entire New Testament. It is really great from moral standards. Now if you talk about the Old Testament, we have a lot to argue. But at least, could we agree that the New Testament is great?? In the New Testament, God never tells yo to rape or murder. It is simply not there! Hello???

Dude, there is the words believe or hell in the NT, Your dead your dead at least in the OT

[Carmen]

Oh yeah. God can turn himself into Satan. Because He is God. Duh!

 

The God of the OT is just about as evil as Satan in my mind.

[Guest Valk0010]

And by the way where did evil come from.

 

If before everything was created if you accept genesis as truth

 

If god didn't create evil how could god exist with it when there was nothing to banish it to, like he did with satan to earth?

 

A good christian family member taught me this about God and evil

 

Light and dark cannot exist in the same place

[JayL]

 

Back to my original point.

 

If you say that God is exempt from his own rules, then what makes are the perfect divine standard and what makes sin the ultimate of goodness. Is are rules just adhoc capricious thoughts of a god then? Why the doublestandard if god is not held to the standards he holds us? By what absolute moral order does then God abide by if they are different standard? Is it his own creation. Again why the double standard? Establishing that god is good automatically is adhoc and unprovable as far as I can see. And we don't know if he is good either.

 

I guess god can just do what he wants and call it good, he gives us a different standard

That is a dictator. This of course doesn't prove atheism, but it does take alot out of xtianty

 

 

As far as I know God is not exempt from his 'own rules' His own rules are expression of Himself. So there is NO double standards.

 

The problem is that most of humans fall under 'the evil column' according to His extremely high standards. For example take you. You think you are ok?? Right. God says you deserve death. And if He strikes you dead right now, you got totally what is coming to you. Do you get it?? Your little brain may scream bloody murder because you don't see your guilt. But God does. And He says you deserve death.

 

For what?? Well, you got angry at your parents and cursed them out. Everybody does that sometimes, right? But you see, God is not like you and me. He sees great wickedness in even what you consider as normal. His standard of righteousness is extremely high.

 

 

Hey, you can keep arguing and take high moral standards and pass your own judgment on God, etc. But as I said, I am too much of a chicken. I am just trying to get along, live in peace and avoid hell. That is all I can say.

[Guest Valk0010]

 

Back to my original point.

 

If you say that God is exempt from his own rules, then what makes are the perfect divine standard and what makes sin the ultimate of goodness. Is are rules just adhoc capricious thoughts of a god then? Why the doublestandard if god is not held to the standards he holds us? By what absolute moral order does then God abide by if they are different standard? Is it his own creation. Again why the double standard? Establishing that god is good automatically is adhoc and unprovable as far as I can see. And we don't know if he is good either.

 

I guess god can just do what he wants and call it good, he gives us a different standard

That is a dictator. This of course doesn't prove atheism, but it does take alot out of xtianty

 

 

As far as I know God is not exempt from his 'own rules' His own rules are expression of Himself. So there is NO double standards.

 

The problem is that most of humans fall under 'the evil column' according to His extremely high standards. For example take you. You think you are ok?? Right. God says you deserve death. And if He strikes you dead right now, you got totally what is coming to you. Do you get it?? Your little brain may scream bloody murder because you don't see your guilt. But God does. And He says you deserve death.

 

For what?? Well, you got angry at your parents and cursed them out. Everybody does that sometimes, right? But you see, God is not like you and me. He sees great wickedness in even what you consider as normal. His standard of righteousness is extremely high.

 

 

Hey, you can keep arguing and take high moral standards and pass your own judgment on God, etc. But as I said, I am too much of a chicken. I am just trying to get along, live in peace and avoid hell. That is all I can say.

 

Whatever you chicken shit, there are over 38,000 xtian denominations not to mention a ton of religion that talk about hell to play pascals wager is almost like playing russian roulette the odds are way way against you.

 

Yeah say what you say about islam, but put xtianity and the same level, don't make it exempt.

 

Whatever

[JayL]

 

 

 

Then he is not omnipotent

 

I absolutely get what your saying and I am saying your wrong

 

Well scratch omnipotent(all powerful) and maybe even omniscient from the list of omniscient( all knowing)and omnipresent(everywhere)

 

 

 

Of course, God is not 'omnipotent' - whatever omnipotent means in your little mind. Don't make up stupid philosophical concept. Just stick to the Bible.

 

God is omnipresent? What the heck does that mean?? God is inside duck's arse? Don't make things up!!

 

 

Who taught you these stupid ideas??

[Guest Valk0010]

 

 

 

Then he is not omnipotent

 

I absolutely get what your saying and I am saying your wrong

 

Well scratch omnipotent(all powerful) and maybe even omniscient from the list of omniscient( all knowing)and omnipresent(everywhere)

 

 

 

Of course, God is not 'omnipotent' - whatever omnipotent means in your little mind. Don't make up stupid philosophical concept. Just stick to the Bible.

 

God is omnipresent? What the heck does that mean?? God is inside duck's arse? Don't make things up!!

 

 

Who taught you these stupid ideas??

Actual I have been taught three things all my life by Christians, I just happened to use the fancy words for them

 

god is all powerful (omnipotent)

 

God is everywhere (omnipresent)

 

God is all knowing (omniscient)

 

little mind well that is debatable

 

i thought christians are supposed to be loving aye, but you pick and choose what you want to beleve

[JayL]

 

Before he created the world he saw the most obtuse way to design the situation and said, aaahhh i will do that one.

 

So he has to murder how convenient????

 

He before the start of the world could have done anything he wanted. That is what I have been saying all along

 

He could have made everything happen without the bloodshed, even he could follow a scenario that we couldn't make.

 

 

So now, it is not enough you think you can judge God and you are into giving God advise on creation??

 

Are you out of your freaking mind??

 

 

You know, a guy like you can end up in hell just by your stupidity.

[JayL]

 

 

 

Then he is not omnipotent

 

I absolutely get what your saying and I am saying your wrong

 

Well scratch omnipotent(all powerful) and maybe even omniscient from the list of omniscient( all knowing)and omnipresent(everywhere)

 

 

 

Of course, God is not 'omnipotent' - whatever omnipotent means in your little mind. Don't make up stupid philosophical concept. Just stick to the Bible.

 

God is omnipresent? What the heck does that mean?? God is inside duck's arse? Don't make things up!!

 

 

Who taught you these stupid ideas??

Actual I have been taught three things all my life by Christians, I just happened to use the fancy words for them

 

god is all powerful (omnipotent)

 

God is everywhere (omnipresent)

 

God is all knowing (omniscient)

 

little mind well that is debatable

 

 

 

No wonder you are totally confused. Just stick to the Bible and don't make up things like that.

[Guest Valk0010]

 

Before he created the world he saw the most obtuse way to design the situation and said, aaahhh i will do that one.

 

So he has to murder how convenient????

 

He before the start of the world could have done anything he wanted. That is what I have been saying all along

 

He could have made everything happen without the bloodshed, even he could follow a scenario that we couldn't make.

 

 

So now, it is not enough you think you can judge God and you are into giving God advise on creation??

 

Are you out of your freaking mind??

 

 

You know, a guy like you can end up in hell just by your stupidity.

Who said your god is the only one to believe in

 

You say Muhammed is scumbag, islam could still be the one true religion.

 

who I am to question the bible

 

a person using the gift I got from your god supposedly to examine his book of course you don't see it that way but anyway

[JayL]

And by the way where did evil come from.

 

If before everything was created if you accept genesis as truth

 

If god didn't create evil how could god exist with it when there was nothing to banish it to, like he did with satan to earth?

 

A good christian family member taught me this about God and evil

 

Light and dark cannot exist in the same place

 

 

 

There may be some attraction to this kind of philosophizing. But the Bible is much more concrete. Issues are more immediate. Things like 'How can I go to Heaven when I die?', 'How can I become a better person and have better life?' etc. When you are settled on those real issues, perhaps we can argue about these concepts...

[Guest Valk0010]

 

 

 

Then he is not omnipotent

 

I absolutely get what your saying and I am saying your wrong

 

Well scratch omnipotent(all powerful) and maybe even omniscient from the list of omniscient( all knowing)and omnipresent(everywhere)

 

 

 

Of course, God is not 'omnipotent' - whatever omnipotent means in your little mind. Don't make up stupid philosophical concept. Just stick to the Bible.

 

God is omnipresent? What the heck does that mean?? God is inside duck's arse? Don't make things up!!

 

 

Who taught you these stupid ideas??

Actual I have been taught three things all my life by Christians, I just happened to use the fancy words for them

 

god is all powerful (omnipotent)

 

God is everywhere (omnipresent)

 

God is all knowing (omniscient)

 

little mind well that is debatable

 

 

 

No wonder you are totally confused. Just stick to the Bible and don't make up things like that.

 

I actually didn't

 

Been taught in the catholic school I went to, when I ask my protestant christian uncle of fifty years he said it is also true, in fact I have never heard otherwise

 

I am just applying the concepts in a different way then they expected

 

just one example of how your wrong on you understanding of the bible

 

http://www.raptureready.com/featured/funk/ooo.html

[Vigile]

If you know hell is not real, why bring it up at all?

 

Because I was indoctrinated with this doctrine from my first memories; back when I was too young to figure things out on my own. It used to keep me awake at night contemplating the horror. I now don't believe it, but it's a horrific doctrine and the xian god, including your "nice guy" Jesus are real bastards if it is real. Infinite time for finite crime? Eternal suffering for mere unbelief? Cruel and unusual punishment? In any context outside of the religious mind this is just sick and teaching it to your kids is abusive.

 

But for Christians, we do believe hell is real and is a real risk.

 

One of the major problems with the xian faith. You believe it on the scantiest of evidence; basically because the bible says so, and from there you extrapolate that it's ok to pollute your children's minds with this nonsense.

 

However, in Christianity, hell should not be feared. Because according to the Bible, it is very easy to avoid the hell.

 

Hogwash. The doctrine is derived from a confusing and contradictory book, there is zero evidence available that proves even in a cursory way the existence of anything we might refer to as supernatural and yet we are asked to believe in order to avoid this place. Unlike xians, I don't believe anything unless I have a good reason to do so and what xians offer as a reason to believe is far, far below any reasonable standards I'm aware of.

 

The Bible teaches that salvation is a gift from God.

 

Gift implies I do nothing for it. The reality is you have to believe. Moreover, the fine print that comes after the sinner's prayer is a whole heaping load of rules one has to follow, a whole hell of a lot of guilt to endure for mere natural and entirely unavoidable impulses, and a damned burdensome cross to bear.

 

Just receive God's forgiveness in Jesus Christ.

 

This ridiculous proposal in no way shape or form gets god off the hook for creating such a place and such an asinine and draconian system of justice.

 

For instance, God knows all, right? Including what decisions I will make in my life. But it was god who chose to allow me to be born in the first place. If you, as a father, knew before your child were conceived that it would spend his/her entire life in excruciating pain due to a birth defect, would you choose to conceive this child anyway? In fact, why create humanity in the first place knowing that most of them are going to suffer eternal (and I want you to think about what that word eternal means) pain? Only a tyrant would do such a thing.

 

Finally, his plan of salvation isn't a gift, its extortion. It's a gun to your head that says believe in me, accept my rules or I'll blow your brains out. You only accept it as a free gift and something wonderful because for you it is an ill thought through platitude. I doubt you have ever considered the implications of this "gift."

 

So if you say that parents are teaching their children to 'fear hell', I have some problem with that

 

Parents don't have to teach children to fear it in order for it to be abusive. Unless you are completely lacking in empathy for humanity you will realize that such a belief extends beyond your own person. Telling me I'm free from hell while billions of people will suffer from it does nothing to ease my mind and it shouldn't yours either.