In And Out Of Faith

[JayL]

 

Anyway, you seem like a nice person and even genuine in your simplicity. Personally I like you from the little I've gotten to know you here.

 

 

Well, thank you. I appreciate it. Best wishes.

[JayL]

Hmm JayL.

 

So god is an insurance policy for you, you hate islam, you think people who read things regarding christianity should no be so serious and stoic, and you are incapable of love without some kind of allegiance to a church or "christianity".

 

Very shallow mate. Sounds like you will make a perfect christian.

 

 

No, God is not an insurance policy for me. The insurance policy idea was just a metaphor.

[JayL]

 

BTW, here's a question for you. Assume for the point of argument that the hell doctrine is incorrect and that there is no hell. Would it not then be child abuse to teach your children to live in fear of it?

 

 

If you know hell is not real, why bring it up at all? But for Christians, we do believe hell is real and is a real risk.

 

However, in Christianity, hell should not be feared. Because according to the Bible, it is very easy to avoid the hell. The Bible teaches that salvation is a gift from God. All you have to do is to receive forgiveness that is in Jesus Christ - what he has done on the cross and that is sufficient to avoid the hell. There is nothing to do. Just receive God's forgiveness in Jesus Christ. It is as easy as opening your heart to this truth. ( But this notion that it all depends on Jesus and not on you can be a difficult idea to grasp and many miss it. )

 

So if you say that parents are teaching their children to 'fear hell', I have some problem with that. No doubt some parents may do so. But it is because they do not fully understand the Gospel message! They are not acting like Christians. If they teach fear of hell thinking the children would better behave because of fear, that is not Christianity. That is a man made religion. And by the way, this kind of thinking is likely to be more common outside of Christianity than in it.

 

Most religions teach that you go to hell if you act badly. Christianity teaches that God can still save you even after doing bad stuff because you can be forgiven in Christ.

 

So does it make any sense to teach children about hell? I don't think so. Not at all. Esp. if one is not teaching about what Jesus Christ has done for them to avoid hell.

[Carmen]

Any parent who teaches their kid about hell is teaching them to fear hell. They are also teaching them that they should never use their critical thinking skills to question their own faith, because they would risk hell fire. It's pure indoctrination.

[Guest Valk0010]

My view on monotheism:

 

What the fuck are you on about? Sorry I can't wrap my head around what the hell you are trying to say:

 

Three Great Monotheism, I once heard a Christian proclaiming so proudly. He was referring to Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

 

And I had to laugh hysterically. What is so great about monotheism? Isn't that like saying, my God is the only God there is. And your gods are pieces of garbage??

 

What??? Do you even understand the term monotheism? "Three great monotheism" What does this ill-formed phrase even mean? Why did you laugh hysterically?

 

 

So you honor every religion's god?

 

 

 

Well, this phrase, 'Three Great monotheism' is everywhere. It wasn't just this fat brother who spoke it. You see this in textbooks, magazines, etc. And nobody stops to think about what it means. I think people in America just takes pride in mentioning ' Judaism, Christianity, Islam', Three Great Monotheistic faiths, and never stop to think what the heck they are talking about. We are talking ethnic genocides, military conquests, religious oppressions, and non stop religious wars BETWEEN these three 'Great Monotheistic faiths' !!!

 

I mean, if you stop to think about it, it is such a stupid, fascistic phrase, people should puke.

 

 

My question is still, " What is so great about monotheism?? ' My fat Christian brother could not answer and I doubt many people out there can.

I will be irreverent and say that maybe dawkin's has it right when he says

Polytheism to monotheism to atheists

[Guest Valk0010]

 

BTW, here's a question for you. Assume for the point of argument that the hell doctrine is incorrect and that there is no hell. Would it not then be child abuse to teach your children to live in fear of it?

 

 

If you know hell is not real, why bring it up at all? But for Christians, we do believe hell is real and is a real risk.

 

However, in Christianity, hell should not be feared. Because according to the Bible, it is very easy to avoid the hell. The Bible teaches that salvation is a gift from God. All you have to do is to receive forgiveness that is in Jesus Christ - what he has done on the cross and that is sufficient to avoid the hell. There is nothing to do. Just receive God's forgiveness in Jesus Christ. It is as easy as opening your heart to this truth. ( But this notion that it all depends on Jesus and not on you can be a difficult idea to grasp and many miss it. )

 

So if you say that parents are teaching their children to 'fear hell', I have some problem with that. No doubt some parents may do so. But it is because they do not fully understand the Gospel message! They are not acting like Christians. If they teach fear of hell thinking the children would better behave because of fear, that is not Christianity. That is a man made religion. And by the way, this kind of thinking is likely to be more common outside of Christianity than in it.

 

Most religions teach that you go to hell if you act badly. Christianity teaches that God can still save you even after doing bad stuff because you can be forgiven in Christ.

 

So does it make any sense to teach children about hell? I don't think so. Not at all. Esp. if one is not teaching about what Jesus Christ has done for them to avoid hell.

Hell as a concept is the perfect way to make sure a religion stays around

[Carmen]

I will be irreverent and say that maybe dawkin's has it right when he says

Polytheism to monotheism to atheists

 

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen Roberts

[JayL]

 

 

Need I remind you Christianity is a monotheism, and you can also look at the crimes of the Old testament, if a human did what Jehovah commanded he would have been shot for warcrimes.

 

And if your going to say God was just operating for the framework of the era

 

I will reply by saying this

 

That means you support that kind of behavior now because that god is still around and capable of such a deed

 

 

 

Oh yes, 'the crimes' by God in the Old Testament!

 

 

Well certainly if we look at the Old Testament, God is NOT a friend of humanity. You have Noah's flood ( most humans killed and the eco system destroyed ), The tower of Babel, Nuking of Sodom and Gomorrah, Plagues on Egyptians, Conquest of Canaan, etc. The list goes on. But if you decide to attack or shoot 'this enemy' for charges of war crime or whatever your little brain can come up with, I say, good luck to you. He will nuke you so fast, it won't be even funny. Personally, I won't argue with God. I would just let it go. I don;t know enough.

 

 

BUT guess what? God has changed. In the New Testament, He has now become a friend of humanity. No more punishment and destruction! Yep. Instead, now He comes to heal your disease. He comes to give you hope. He comes to encourage and bless you. Why the big change you ask??? Well, it is all because of one righteous man - Jesus Christ, who has successfully pleased God. Jesus Christ has made peace for us by his life of sacrifice. Peace and safety from that scary God of justice in the Old Testament. That is why it is called the Good News, the Gospel.

 

 

Now you have a choice. Either you receive that gift of peace in Jesus Christ or go back to blaming and accusing God using your own justice scale. I chose the former. If you choose the latter, you may have the scary excitement of finding out the consequence of your choice after you die.

 

For me, I am a chicken. I don't want terrifying excitement of visiting hell. On those Old Testament 'crimes', I just don't know enough to judge what happened. So I won't argue. I am a pragmatist. I just like this 'peace with God' that I have in my life. That is why I am a Christian.

[Carmen]

Are you serious? I thought Christians believed that God was unchanging. God is an evil, angry, tyrannical, tantrum-throwing criminal in the Old Testament, and a happy, peaceful loving, fluffy hippie (who will burn you in hell if you don't buy his fire insurance) in the New Testament. Why should we put any faith in a god who changes his sense of morality at a whim?

[lunaticheathen]

BUT guess what? God has changed. In the New Testament, He has now become a friend of humanity. Yep. Now He comes to heal your disease. He comes to give you hope. He comes to encourage and bless you. Why the big change you ask??? Well, it is all because of one righteous man - Jesus Christ, who has successfully pleased God. Jesus Christ has made peace for us by his life of sacrifice. Peace and safety from that scary God of justice in the Old Testament. That is why it is called the Good News, the Gospel. Now you have a choice. Either you receive that gift of peace in Jesus Christ - or go back to blaming God using your own justice scale. I chose the former. If you choose the latter, you have the scary excitement of finding out the consequence of your choice after you die.

Boogey boogey, believe in the Jewish Zombie or you'll fry.

Piss off. Any god with that large of a stick up his ass about the humanity HE SUPPOSEDLY CREATED isn't worthy of worship, even if it is true. Honestly, if any brand of christianity is right, I'd rather burn. But I'll fart in the face of YHVH before I go. He never appeared to me, never made himself known in any fashion (other than negative, if any) while "idols" did. If he has a beef with me for not buying the Flying Jew story, he can kiss my fat heathen ass.

[JayL]

 

I will be irreverent and say that maybe dawkin's has it right when he says

Polytheism to monotheism to atheists

 

 

He has a point. If you know enough about the history of Islam, the so called 'pure monotheism', you will be glad to be an atheist.

 

When it comes to Islam, I am with Dawkins.

[JayL]

 

Boogey boogey, believe in the Jewish Zombie or you'll fry.

Piss off. Any god with that large of a stick up his ass about the humanity HE SUPPOSEDLY CREATED isn't worthy of worship, even if it is true. Honestly, if any brand of christianity is right, I'd rather burn. But I'll fart in the face of YHVH before I go. He never appeared to me, never made himself known in any fashion (other than negative, if any) while "idols" did. If he has a beef with me for not buying the Flying Jew story, he can kiss my fat heathen ass.

 

 

I am telling you. Some people are not chickens!

[Carmen]

Now you have a choice. Either you receive that gift of peace in Jesus Christ or go back to blaming and accusing God using your own justice scale. I chose the former. If you choose the latter, you may have the scary excitement of finding out the consequence of your choice after you die.

 

For me, I am a chicken. I don't want terrifying excitement of visiting hell. On those Old Testament 'crimes', I just don't know enough to judge what happened. So I won't argue. I am a pragmatist. I just like this 'peace with God' that I have in my life. That is why I am a Christian.

 

Pascal's wager again. You say that believe in God gives you inner peace. For myself and others here, belief in God gave us anything but inner peace. In the deconversion process, we each went through great turmoil and cognitive dissonance because we could not reconcile our beliefs with the opposing evidence. It seems you are content to believe something just because it is comfortable. Many people are fine with that kind of belief, but for us it's not enough. Belief based on a feeling is very shallow.

[lunaticheathen]

I am telling you. Some people are not chickens!

 

Damn straight. No one's going to spook me into some idiotic, slavish religion.

[Carmen]

I am telling you. Some people are not chickens!

 

And because they are not chickens, they will burn in hell? And all the chickens who believed in God just to play it safe will get to spend eternity in heaven?

[Guest Valk0010]

 

 

Need I remind you Christianity is a monotheism, and you can also look at the crimes of the Old testament, if a human did what Jehovah commanded he would have been shot for warcrimes.

 

And if your going to say God was just operating for the framework of the era

 

I will reply by saying this

 

That means you support that kind of behavior now because that god is still around and capable of such a deed

 

 

 

Oh yes, 'the crimes' of Old Testament!

 

 

Well certainly if we look at the Old Testament, God is NOT a friend of humanity. You have Noah's flood ( most humans killed and the eco system destroyed ), The tower of Babel, Nuking of Sodom and Gomorrah, Plagues on Egyptians, Conquest of Canaan, etc. The list goes on. But if you decide to attack or shoot 'this enemy' for charges of war crime or whatever your little brain can come up with, I say, good luck to you. He will nuke you so fast, it won't be even funny.

 

 

BUT guess what? God has changed. In the New Testament, He has now become a friend of humanity. Yep. Now He comes to heal your disease. He comes to give you hope. He comes to encourage and bless you. Why the big change you ask??? Well, it is all because of one righteous man - Jesus Christ, who has successfully pleased God. Jesus Christ has made peace for us by his life of sacrifice. Peace and safety from that scary God of justice in the Old Testament. That is why it is called the Good News, the Gospel. Now you have a choice. Either you receive that gift of peace in Jesus Christ - or go back to blaming God using your own justice scale. I chose the former. If you choose the latter, you have the scary excitement of finding out the consequence of your choice after you die.

The heretic Marcion thought judging by the character differences of The OT and NT thought that the god jesus represented was a different god then the OT god

 

There is plenty more reasons I reject Christianity so don't think you have a big breakthough

 

I am 19 raised in a christian home taught the salvation message all my life, so don't be condensing.

 

Ummm also they do say, Jesus was with god and is god and also unchanging. The god seems schizophrenic, and jesus is also guilty of the same crimes

 

Now you might not have the foresight for this but give me a answer to this problem

 

God knows the future right?

 

He knows that he is going to shed blood, with the flood(no logical reason to believe it happened).

 

Now assuming that the made in the image of likeness of god applies to him(meaning he has characteristics he gave us), and just general logic, which supposedly he gave us also applies to him.

 

Why not avoid the murder, he is god. He knows that he is going to kill people.

He says shall not kill to the Israelites.

 

Then he is a murderer if he doesn't avoid the murders he knew would happen in his name. He violated his own rules absolute and pure rules if he knows the future.

 

Also would you support the kinds of campaigns of the OT, if they were happening today, or you were around back then.

 

Back to my original point.

 

If you say that God is exempt from his own rules, then what makes are the perfect divine standard and what makes sin the ultimate of goodness. Is are rules just adhoc capricious thoughts of a god then? Why the doublestandard if god is not held to the standards he holds us? By what absolute moral order does then God abide by if they are different standard? Is it his own creation. Again why the double standard? Establishing that god is good automatically is adhoc and unprovable as far as I can see. And we don't know if he is good either.

 

I guess god can just do what he wants and call it good, he gives us a different standard

 

That is a dictator.

 

This of course doesn't prove atheism, but it does take alot out of xtianty

[Carmen]

If you say that God is exempt from his own rules, then what makes are the perfect divine standard and what makes sin the ultimate of goodness. Is are rules just adhoc capricious thoughts of a god then? Why the doublestandard if god is not held to the standards he holds us? By what absolute moral order does then God abide by if they are different standard? Is it his own creation. Again why the double standard? Establishing that god is good automatically is adhoc and unprovable as far as I can see. And we don't know if he is good either.

 

If God can commit immoral acts and yet still be considered good, how do we even define the "good" and "moral"? In this kind of system, good is whatever God commands us to do. Doing good is submitting to God. So if God told someone to commit rape or murder, it would be consider moral, because it was a command from God.

[JayL]

Are you serious? I thought Christians believed that God was unchanging. God is an evil, angry, tyrannical, tantrum-throwing criminal in the Old Testament, and a happy, peaceful loving, fluffy hippie (who will burn you in hell if you don't buy his fire insurance) in the New Testament. Why should we put any faith in a god who changes his sense of morality at a whim?

 

 

Yes, He may seem " an evil, angry, tyrannical, tantrum-throwing criminal " in some people's eyes - esp. those who were having just good times in Sodom - but God will have none of that. He believes in cleansing what He considers evil.

 

The bad news was that according to God's justice scale, most humanity fall under the 'evil' column. Sad but it is so - according to God.

 

So the picture in the Old Testament is one of eternal enmity between God and fallen humanity and the humanity is really doomed. You could even say God is your personal enemy because you are going to fail his ultra high standards and be destroyed.

 

What changed in New Testament is the coming of Jesus Christ. He has pulled off an incredible deal. Now salvation is a free gift and you are going to be Ok. Only thing you have to do is to accept the forgiveness in Jesus Christ. That is all. Nothing to do. You don't have to go to any church or anything. So you can be Ok.

 

And at this point, I am not going to go back to the Old Testament events and try to 'educate' God about acting humanely. I just don't feel that smart and I certainly don't have all the facts. I am just going to let it go. Perhaps I will understand it some day.

[Guest Valk0010]

 

 

Need I remind you Christianity is a monotheism, and you can also look at the crimes of the Old testament, if a human did what Jehovah commanded he would have been shot for warcrimes.

 

And if your going to say God was just operating for the framework of the era

 

I will reply by saying this

 

That means you support that kind of behavior now because that god is still around and capable of such a deed

 

Now you have a choice. Either you receive that gift of peace in Jesus Christ or go back to blaming and accusing God using your own justice scale. I chose the former. If you choose the latter, you may have the scary excitement of finding out the consequence of your choice after you die.

 

For me, I am a chicken. I don't want terrifying excitement of visiting hell. On those Old Testament 'crimes', I just don't know enough to judge what happened. So I won't argue. I am a pragmatist. I just like this 'peace with God' that I have in my life. That is why I am a Christian.

 

So a muslim on the hajj to mecca is not feeling something that you would use in your case as evidence for your god

 

Truth operates outside of comfort and emotion

[Guest Valk0010]

Are you serious? I thought Christians believed that God was unchanging. God is an evil, angry, tyrannical, tantrum-throwing criminal in the Old Testament, and a happy, peaceful loving, fluffy hippie (who will burn you in hell if you don't buy his fire insurance) in the New Testament. Why should we put any faith in a god who changes his sense of morality at a whim?

 

 

Yes, He may seem " an evil, angry, tyrannical, tantrum-throwing criminal " in some people's eyes - esp. those who were having just good times in Sodom - but God will have none of that. He believes in cleansing what He considers evil.

 

The bad news was that according to God's justice scale, most humanity fall under the 'evil' column. Sad but it is so - according to God.

 

So the picture in the Old Testament is one of eternal enmity between God and fallen humanity and the humanity is really doomed. You could even say God is your personal enemy because you are going to fail his ultra high standards and be destroyed.

 

What changed in New Testament is the coming of Jesus Christ. He has pulled off an incredible deal. Now salvation is a free gift and you are going to be Ok. Only thing you have to do is to accept the forgiveness in Jesus Christ. That is all. Nothing to do. You don't have to go to any church or anything. So you can be Ok.

 

And at this point, I am not going to go back to the Old Testament events and try to 'educate' God about acting humanely. I just don't feel that smart and I certainly don't have all the facts. I am just going to let it go. Perhaps I will understand it some day.

Forgive me for being crude but: Chicken shit asshole

[Carmen]

Yes, He may seem " an evil, angry, tyrannical, tantrum-throwing criminal " in some people's eyes - esp. those who were having just good times in Sodom - but God will have none of that. He believes in cleansing what He considers evil.

 

So God cleanses evil with more evil? Read these verses from the OT, and try to tell me that God didn't do immoral things in the Old Testament.

 

God tells the Israelites it is ok to rape:

Numbers 31

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

 

God says that a father may sell her daughter as a sex slave to another man:

Exodus 21:7-11

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

 

God endorses slavery and says that you can beat your slave as much as you like, as long as you don’t kill them:

Exodus 21:20-21

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.

 

God sends a group of bears to rip children to shreds simply because they called his prophet an old baldy:

2 Kings 2:23-24

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces.

 

God says that homosexuals, witches, children who curse their parents, nonbelievers and people who work on the Sabbath should all be stoned to death:

Leviticus 20:13

If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.”

Exodus 22:17

“You should not let a sorceress live.”

2 Chronicles 15:12-13

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

 

Leviticus 20:9

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense.

Exodus 31:12-15

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.'

 

God orders the Israelites to wipe out entire nations, including men, women and children. This is called genocide, and it’s one of the worst and most tragic things that humans have done throughout history. I know you will say that these nations deserved this. But please think about it. Would it have been right for us to wipe out all Germans during WWII? Why would God have told the Israelites to kill innocent babies?

[Galien]

So, you think Christians and Christianity are not that bad hey?

 

So are all the people throughout time who have been emotionally, physically and spiritually tortured by the church having some kind of collective delusion are they?

 

We are talking about people here, who if they believe in their religion are supposed to be representatives of the one and only true god. Ask yourself Mr JayL, if god fronted you right now and asked for an account of what kind of a representative of him you have been, how would you fare?

 

Would u ask him to watch a porno with you, whilst explaining to him why you still need to do that even now you are christ minded, and the same spirit that raised christ from the dead dwells in you?

[Michael]

Actually charismatic churches do primarily appeal to emotions. But I would not say that Christianity is mostly an emotional thing. There is a strong intellectual side to it as well.

 

The intellectual part of charismatic churches is ridiculous. They make it look "intellectual". It is improved cherry picking. Charismatic churches have beside the emotional factor a relationship factor. I think the intellectual and biblical foundation is the weakest link in the charismatic groups and churches I know/knew.

 

But all in all, as my past shows one can 'go in and out of faith' a few times. I am fighting hard in this lion's den to remain alive as a Christian!! LOL

 

People love the LOL stuff

[JayL]

 

Now you might not have the foresight for this but give me a answer to this problem

God knows the future right?

 

Why not avoid the murder, he is god. He knows that he is going to kill people.

He says shall not kill to the Israelite.

 

Then he is a murderer if he doesn't avoid the murders he knew would happen in his name. He violated his own rules absolute and pure rules if he knows the future.

 

Also would you support the kinds of campaigns of the OT, if they were happening today, or you were around back then.

 

 

 

Yes, God knows the future. " Why not avoid the killing? " This is one of major misconceptions people have. He cannot avoid it. God knows the future but He cannot control it - because He cannot control people. God gave people essential freedom and they make decisions of their own. And God respects those decisions.

 

For example, if people decides to reject the gift of salvation in Jesus Christ, there is nothing God can do to stop them from falling into hell along with Satan and evil angels. Does that make Him a criminal? I don't think so.

 

Also on those campaigns in Canaan, I don't think we have all the facts about what kind of people Canaanites were. Were they people like you and me? Perhaps a bit bloodier? We don't know. That is why I cannot make any good judgement. Furthermore I am a chicken. I just want to avoid hell. I will let you have the moral high ground.

[lunaticheathen]

So, you think Christians and Christianity are not that bad hey?

 

So are all the people throughout time who have been emotionally, physically and spiritually tortured by the church having some kind of collective delusion are they?

 

 

Or, we're just letting those "bad apples" make us angry, and blind us from the real lovey-dovey story of a Jewish rebel who called people names, whipped them with ropes, and broke the laws of his own religion. Oh yeah, and said he would turn families against each other. But remember, us hurt souls are "just angry."

 

FFS, bite me.