In And Out Of Faith

[JayL]

 

 

I agree that logically agnosticism is the ideal approach, but at what point does the weight of evidence shift so that we should consider the agnostic position to be so tilted in favor of atheism that we should admit that there is "virtually" no possibility of gods, and therefore no practical benefit from belief?

 

To put it differently, are you agnostic about Quetzalcoatl? In all honesty, one cannot know with certainty that the Aztecs were wrong to worship this invisible feathered serpent (although how they knew it was a feathered serpent while being invisible is difficult to understand). Practically speaking, however, it would be foolish to believe that Quetzalcoatl is the fount of all knowledge and learning.

 

So while my honesty says we can't prove Quetzalcoatl doesn't exist (and didn't exist), I find it ridiculous to believe it. I therefore am a practical atheist with respect to Quetzalcoatl. I am also a practical atheist regarding every other god: Zeus, Thor, Rah, Aten, Yahweh, Marduk and Vishnu.

 

I suspect that we are both practical atheists with respect to these gods. Well, except for the one that you believe in for some strange reason. "On the other hand, some people did become believers based on other things - idealism, miraculous healings, something 'clicked' inside them to believe, etc." That is the perfect description of Islam.

 

 

 

Well in case of Islam, you must not forget the political dimension that one cannot separate from Orthodox Islam. As Islamic scholars out it, 'Islam is a religion of dominance'. Islam is all about enforcing its rule and its laws on you whether you like it or not.

 

Christianity may have had some phases like that but the Bible based Christianity is clearly of individual, voluntary conversion.

 

 

But on your main point, yes. I too am an atheist when it comes to Islamic god of Allah even though muslims will claim that Allah is the same God as the God of the Bible. I spent months studying this issue.

[Shyone]

Did Cantor go insane? I didn't know that. On Newton, he was NOT screwy. He was a devout Christian. - Unless you think all Christians are screwy. No. Don't answer that. LOL

Cantor was in and out of insane asylums.

 

Newton, btw, was a heretic both in his time and today.

 

According to most scholars, Newton was Arian, not holding to Trinitarianism.[7][19] 'In Newton's eyes, worshipping Christ as God was idolatry, to him the fundamental sin'.[22] As well as being antitrinitarian, Newton also rejected the orthodox doctrines of the immortal soul,[citation needed] a personal devil and literal demons.[7] Although he was not a Socinian he shared many similar beliefs with them.[7] A manuscript he sent to John Locke in which he disputed the existence of the Trinity was never published.

 

His major misunderstanding is that he accepted scripture as revealed from God rather than written by men to influence men.

 

That seems to be a major problem with all holy scriptures.

[NotBlinded]

Christianity may have had some phases like that but the Bible based Christianity is clearly of individual, voluntary conversion.

Yes, if you think a supernatural gun pointed at your head is voluntary.

[Ouroboros]

Well... you live in OC. If we can meet someday? I don't know...

 

I will just apologize and leave this controversy.

Fair enough. I won't push you on this issue. I'm just so frigging curious!

[JayL]

 

His major misunderstanding is that he accepted scripture as revealed from God rather than written by men to influence men.

 

That seems to be a major problem with all holy scriptures.

 

 

We can start a whole discussion board on that point!

[JayL]

Christianity may have had some phases like that but the Bible based Christianity is clearly of individual, voluntary conversion.

Yes, if you think a supernatural gun pointed at your head is voluntary.

 

 

Well, but the 'supernatural gun' only concerns with the afterlife. In case of Islam they will literally come after you in this life - because Allah god wants to dominate the world and make all people muslims. To me it makes a big difference whether they are willing to leave you alone in this life. Ok, don't answer that doorbell. It is Jehovah's Witness!

[JayL]

Well... you live in OC. If we can meet someday? I don't know...

 

I will just apologize and leave this controversy.

Fair enough. I won't push you on this issue. I'm just so frigging curious!

 

 

You also have think about the possibility that I am deluding myself!! You want to hear about my stock market theory instead?? LOL ( This is laughing at myself! )

[par4dcourse]

 

We can start a whole discussion board on that point!

 

And I'm sure your points will be just as clear as your proof of god.

 

I reallly got to get better at this stomping out/ slamming the door thing.

[Shyone]

Well in case of Islam, you must not forget the political dimension that one cannot separate from Orthodox Islam. As Islamic scholars out it, 'Islam is a religion of dominance'. Islam is all about enforcing its rule and its laws on you whether you like it or not.

 

Christianity may have had some phases like that but the Bible based Christianity is clearly of individual, voluntary conversion.

Why would you think that the Christian "phases" are any different from the Muslim "phases"?

 

A large part of the Christian Holy Roman Empire was converted at the point of a sword. Even today, you can see that the geography of Christianity follows the sword of Roman and Catholic conquest.

 

I notice you decided not to address my comments about agnosticism, nor answer my questions about your own personal agnosticism regarding Quetzalcoatl (or any of the other gods). Surely you don't believe in all of them, do you?

 

BTW, you are presenting a misinterpretation of what Islamic scholars mean when they speak of submission. From the Koran:

 

And when the believers saw the allies, they said: This is what Allah and His Apostle promised us, and Allah and His Apostle spoke the truth; and it only increased them in faith and submission.

 

And what a muslim scholar has to say about it:

 

In the early 7th century, Muhammad and successive caliphs, took up the Arabic custom of making raids against their enemies. The Qur'an called these raids the jihad ("striving in the way of the Lord"). The jihad was not carried out as a means to convert others for the simple reason that acts of conversion to the Islamic faith were voluntary.

 

They are speaking of submission to Allah, not the political and/or military arms of the religion, and they view conversion as a voluntary act. If you misrepresent and distort what the other religion believes about itself, are you being honest?

[JayL]

Pascal wager is the most rational argument I have ever read. I find it very convincing.

Is this a mind worth having dialog with?

 

 

Actually you do have a great point. I once read this great book by somebody, he is like a physics prof in Johns Hopkins. And the whole book is about how all these science chalatans use Pascal's wager reasoning to get money from the government. LOL

 

One big example: Cold fusion. Pons and Fleishman asked the Federal Government to invest like 50 million on their research. And their selling point was: Think about the payoff!! It is so huge. Now even if the odd is low, think about the payoff!!! LOL Give us 50 millions!!! LOL

[JayL]

 

They are speaking of submission to Allah, not the political and/or military arms of the religion, and they view conversion as a voluntary act. If you misrepresent and distort what the other religion believes about itself, are you being honest?

 

 

And ,what may I ask, is the submission to Allah?? Is it having a personal relationship with Father Allah? Is it singing hymns to Allah perhaps?? Perhaps sharing wafer and wine??

 

 

No submission to Allah means submission to the Islamic laws - Sharia laws in more extreme cases. When you submit to that law, you are under their politics by the Islamic clerics. Think Iran.

[florduh]

Well, but the 'supernatural gun' only concerns with the afterlife. In case of Islam they will literally come after you in this life - because Allah god wants to dominate the world and make all people muslims.

Christianity had its turn at domination by the sword, Muslims are just a few hundred years behind in becoming civilized. Besides, even today, some Christians are still torturing and killing children in Africa whom they imagine to be witches.

 

Face it, Abrahamic religions were the invention of ancient barbarians. Read some history and try thinking critically and logically rather than putting all your efforts into finding "evidence" to support your delusion.

 

That is, if you are indeed what you claim to be. I still smell a put on.

[Ouroboros]

And ,what may I ask, is the submission to Allah?? Is it having a personal relationship with Father Allah? Is it singing hymns to Allah perhaps?? Perhaps sharing wafer and wine??

 

No submission to Allah means submission to the Islamic laws - Sharia laws in more extreme cases. When you submit to that law, you are under their politics by the Islamic clerics. Think Iran.

We do have a Muslim on this website now. Perhaps you should have a debate with her?

[JayL]

 

 

Why would you think that the Christian "phases" are any different from the Muslim "phases"?

 

I notice you decided not to address my comments about agnosticism, nor answer my questions about your own personal agnosticism regarding Quetzalcoatl (or any of the other gods). Surely you don't believe in all of them, do you?

 

In the early 7th century, Muhammad and successive caliphs, took up the Arabic custom of making raids against their enemies. The Qur'an called these raids the jihad ("striving in the way of the Lord"). The jihad was not carried out as a means to convert others for the simple reason that acts of conversion to the Islamic faith were voluntary.

 

 

 

I do think 'Christian phase' as very different from Muslim 'phases' because the theology is different. If you miss out on political dimension of Islam, you are missing the whole thing. e.g. What is Bin Laden talking about when the mentions 'Caliphate'?

 

About Quetzalcoatl and other gods, I do believe in spiritual beings other than God. Like Satan, demons, angels, etc. So I do maintain active interests in other religions.

 

"acts of conversion to the Islamic faith were voluntary" Well, they did not force Christians and Jews to become muslims. They had to suffer second class citizen status and pay 'protection' tax. ( I sometime wonder whether Mafia got their idea from muslim tax on Christians. )

[JayL]

Well, but the 'supernatural gun' only concerns with the afterlife. In case of Islam they will literally come after you in this life - because Allah god wants to dominate the world and make all people muslims.

Christianity had its turn at domination by the sword, Muslims are just a few hundred years behind in becoming civilized. Besides, even today, some Christians are still torturing and killing children in Africa whom they imagine to be witches.

 

Face it, Abrahamic religions were the invention of ancient barbarians. Read some history and try thinking critically and logically rather than putting all your efforts into finding "evidence" to support your delusion.

 

That is, if you are indeed what you claim to be. I still smell a put on.

 

 

 

Three Great Monotheism, I once heard a Christian proclaiming so proudly. He was referring to Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

 

And I had to laugh hysterically. But what is so great about monotheism? Isn't that like saying, my God is the only God there is. And your gods are pieces of garbage?? Monotheism is inherently insulting and fascistic as far as I can see. I almost felt like grabbing that fat brother and say, 'Do you have any idea how many innocent Hindus muslims killed in India??' Tell me, what the heck is so great about monotheism??' I don't think the guy had a clue.

[JayL]

Muslims are just a few hundred years behind in becoming civilized. Besides, even today, some Christians are still torturing and killing children in Africa whom they imagine to be witches.

 

 

 

I am so glad to hear of your patience. So you are willing to wait a few hundred years until muslims become civilized?? Like Christians of today?? Good luck with your waiting.

[Michael]

About Quetzalcoatl and other gods, I do believe in spiritual beings other than God. Like Satan, demons, angels, etc. So I do maintain active interests in other religions.

 

To me your believe system sounds pretty messed up. Do you belong to some weird church with 50 members or just 25 members and a godlike pastor? Why do you not share your "point of view" in a xian forum? Why do you show up here? Do you not find enough "real" xians to talk about your ideas?

[JayL]

About Quetzalcoatl and other gods, I do believe in spiritual beings other than God. Like Satan, demons, angels, etc. So I do maintain active interests in other religions.

 

To me your believe system sounds pretty messed up. Do you belong to some weird church with 50 members or just 25 members and a godlike pastor? Why do you not share your "point of view" in a xian forum? Why do you show up here? Do you not find enough "real" xians to talk about your ideas?

 

 

When I talk to other Christians, we kinda fall into 'Christian lingo and thought patterns'. Here I feel freer to talk my real opinions about a lot of things. I have been on both sides - a few times. And I am not against atheism or agnosticism. I think peace and understanding should exist between Christians and people of agnostic/atheism community. There should be really no reason for rancor.

 

I attend Vineyard Fellowship church in Los Angeles. It is a pretty informal, charismatic church denomination.

[Phanta]

About Quetzalcoatl and other gods, I do believe in spiritual beings other than God. Like Satan, demons, angels, etc. So I do maintain active interests in other religions.

 

To me your believe system sounds pretty messed up. Do you belong to some weird church with 50 members or just 25 members and a godlike pastor? Why do you not share your "point of view" in a xian forum? Why do you show up here? Do you not find enough "real" xians to talk about your ideas?

 

 

When I talk to other Christians, we kinda fall into 'Christian lingo and thought patterns'. Here I feel freer to talk my real opinions about a lot of things. I have been on both sides - a few times. And I am not against atheism or agnosticism. I think peace and understanding should exist between Christians and people of agnostic/atheism community. There should be really no reason for rancor.

 

I attend Vineyard Fellowship church in Los Angeles. It is a pretty informal, charismatic church denomination.

 

Why don't you feel free to speak your real opinions within your faith community?

 

Phanta

[florduh]

I am so glad to hear of your patience. So you are willing to wait a few hundred years until muslims become civilized?? Like Christians of today?? Good luck with your waiting.

How did you ever get that from what I posted? I have no patience for either. I was pointing out that they are very much alike but Muslims are slower to evolve into the civilized society we have today. I also indicated that it's not over for Christian violence either. Pay attention. No wonder you've been duped by a cult.

[Michael]

 

When I talk to other Christians, we kinda fall into 'Christian lingo and thought patterns'. Here I feel freer to talk my real opinions about a lot of things. I have been on both sides - a few times. And I am not against atheism or agnosticism. (...)

 

I attend Vineyard Fellowship church in Los Angeles. It is a pretty informal, charismatic church denomination.

 

I belonged to a vineyard church in Germany, so I have an idea of your background. Do you join any small groups or do you just attend the big services? How involved are you? I think it is great, that you look "over the fence", but you should do it with open ears and not just an open mouth. You seem to read and think a lot. What are you reading at the moment?

[Shyone]

Well, but the 'supernatural gun' only concerns with the afterlife. In case of Islam they will literally come after you in this life - because Allah god wants to dominate the world and make all people muslims.

Christianity had its turn at domination by the sword, Muslims are just a few hundred years behind in becoming civilized. Besides, even today, some Christians are still torturing and killing children in Africa whom they imagine to be witches.

 

Face it, Abrahamic religions were the invention of ancient barbarians. Read some history and try thinking critically and logically rather than putting all your efforts into finding "evidence" to support your delusion.

 

That is, if you are indeed what you claim to be. I still smell a put on.

 

 

 

Three Great Monotheism, I once heard a Christian proclaiming so proudly. He was referring to Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

 

And I had to laugh hysterically. But what is so great about monotheism? Isn't that like saying, my God is the only God there is. And your gods are pieces of garbage?? Monotheism is inherently insulting and fascistic as far as I can see. I almost felt like grabbing that fat brother and say, 'Do you have any idea how many innocent Hindus muslims killed in India??' Tell me, what the heck is so great about monotheism??' I don't think the guy had a clue.

Watch out. You are dangerously close to becoming an ex-christian with this kind of thinking.

[JayL]

 

When I talk to other Christians, we kinda fall into 'Christian lingo and thought patterns'. Here I feel freer to talk my real opinions about a lot of things. I have been on both sides - a few times. And I am not against atheism or agnosticism. (...)

 

I attend Vineyard Fellowship church in Los Angeles. It is a pretty informal, charismatic church denomination.

 

I belonged to a vineyard church in Germany, so I have an idea of your background. Do you join any small groups or do you just attend the big services? How involved are you? I think it is great, that you look "over the fence", but you should do it with open ears and not just an open mouth. You seem to read and think a lot. What are you reading at the moment?

 

 

 

Wow. I am so glad to know that you attended Vineyard fellowship. The small groups in my church never really took off and my favorite part of my current church is the Sunday morning Bible study. I am quite committed to this church because the pastor is a very nice guy. Most recently I have been reading books by Joseph Prince, a pastor of mega church in Singapore. Do you know who it is? His books are pretty interesting. He even gave invited sermons in Holland. I am also reading a book on house churches. I wonder if that should be the model of Protestant churches in Europe - you know, like small home fellowship, very informal gathering of like minded people over beer, etc. Like meeting together for Bible study, sharing, and prayers, etc - with minimal pressure or commitment. And with no church building to fund or to maintain, there should be no pressure to ask for money.

[Ouroboros]

JayL,

 

Sorry to say, but according to these Real Christians™, Vineyard is not a Biblical Christianity: http://www.mmoutreachinc.com/cult_groups/vineyard.html

 

So I guess we will see you in Hell after all.

[Michael]

Wow. I am so glad to know that you attended Vineyard fellowship. The small groups in my church never really took off and my favorite part of my current church is the Sunday morning Bible study. I am quite committed to this church because the pastor is a very nice guy. Most recently I have reading books by Joseph Prince, a past of mega church in Singapore. Do you know who it is? His books are pretty interesting. He even gave invited sermons in Holland. I am also reading a book on house churches. I wonder if that should be the model of protestant churchs in Europe - you know, like small home fellowship, very informal gathering of like minded people over beer, etc.

 

To me the idea of house churches was in the end the only acceptable form of church. Everyone has a ministry, everyone is important. I left the church 8 years ago, so I am not up to date. And you can imagine, that the vineyard fellowship and later the "jesus army" in England (http://www.newcreation.org.uk/nccc/articles_ourstory.shtml) and even the house church movement could not help me to stay in xianity. Without a group there is no chance to keep your faith and with a group there is no chance to remain intellectual honest.