In And Out Of Faith

[lunaticheathen]

And of course, the concept of salvation is detestable and illogical. Sending people to a place of eternal torture simply for being born human makes no sense on any level, nor does it make sense that someone has to pay for the actions of another.

 

I already pointed that out to this dude, more than once, and more than any other point I used to puncture his Jeebus love balloon. But it seems he WANTS to believe. Because trying out not believing was HAAARD!

 

Guh. Dunno why I try with Christards.

[par4dcourse]

He never did entertain us with the details of the "miracles" that brought him back to his insurance company, or did I miss it?

 

Musta took the day off, being the sabbath and all. Even his god needed a day off.

[godlessgrrl]

Well I want to try to be one. I don't think I dodged too many questions. In some ways, I am brutally honest. I may have picked a few that sounded interesting.

 

You dodged these:

 

That is a difficult point. My idea is to go by the founders of each religion. I find Jesus to be a great humanbeing while I find Mohammed to be a violent criminal guy.

 

Does the moral quality of a religion's founder make that religion true, then?

 

How exactly does that follow?

 

Were those questions not interesting enough for you?

 

How about these:

 

-What is your standard of evidence for the existence of god?

-Can you demonstrate that any god exists, using OUR standard of evidence?

-Can you demonstrate that YOUR god exists, using OUR standard of evidence?

 

Are those interesting enough?

 

Can you answer them?

[oddbird1963]

While I know that this website has generated lots of comments and replies, there are several other key issues that JayL has not really addressed:

 

 

Once again, you are talking about personal preference. Allah could be real, whether you prefer it or not and Muhammad could have been his prophet whether you would choose him for cool dude of the year. How do you determine real from non real, true from false?

 

Biblical Christianity = your interpretation or a Rorschach inkblot.

 

Once again, you do realize that there are many traditions of Christianity going back centuries that would see you as 1) Deceived 2) deceiver 3) heretic 4) simplistic 5) self-serving[?]

 

You are cherry picking the Christianity you wish were true, quite superficially and simplistically. How do you know God won't send you to hell for being superficial rather than a sinner?

 

What Islam teaches about peace and what Christianity teaches about peace makes no difference until you answer why you think the Christian God exists and not Allah.

 

You haven't dealt with how you determined one was true and the other is not true.

 

 

And those are just points I've raised. GwenMead has raised some similar, yet to be addressed questions.

[par4dcourse]

And those are just points I've raised. GwenMead has raised some similar, yet to be addressed questions.

 

I hope he come's back. I'm bored, and I really love a good round of pin the xian to the question.

[godlessgrrl]

It doesn't seem to me that our visitor believes because there is good evidence that Christianity is true, but because he's just hedging his bets.

 

But I'm still curious to see the answers to my questions. From any Christian, not just this most recent visitor.

[Sconnor]

<< JayL really should look at a book that examines biblical contradictions and inconsistencies, like one by Bart Ehrman for example. But I think JayL is not honestly willing to challenge his faith.

And he explained why: Too chicken. >>

 

 

I am not a big fan of Bartman. He is too angry.

 

I assume you mean Bart Ehrman -- yes?

 

How did you come to the conclusion he is too angry?

 

And even if he was the angriest most belligerent person in the world -- how does that discredit the facts, in his arguments and books?

 

--S.

[Brakeman]

<< JayL really should look at a book that examines biblical contradictions and inconsistencies, like one by Bart Ehrman for example. But I think JayL is not honestly willing to challenge his faith.

And he explained why: Too chicken. >>

I am not a big fan of Bartman. He is too angry.

I assume you mean Bart Ehrman -- yes?

How did you come to the conclusion he is too angry?

 

And even if he was the angriest most belligerent person in the world -- how does that discredit the facts, in his arguments and books?

--S.

 

I don't believe the bible, the writers were just too ANGRY!

[Ouroboros]

And I don't believe in JayL, he's also too angry.

[godlessgrrl]

If Bart Ehrman's arguments are good, it doesn't make any difference whether or not he's angry (or whether or not someone perceives him as such).

 

JayL, what are your specific rebuttals to Ehrman's actual arguments/positions/opinions?

 

I'm interested in hearing about this after you've answered mine and oddbird1963's previous questions. Thanks.

[JayL]

Does the moral quality of a religion's founder make that religion true, then?

 

How exactly does that follow?

 

Were those questions not interesting enough for you?

 

How about these:

 

-What is your standard of evidence for the existence of god?

-Can you demonstrate that any god exists, using OUR standard of evidence?

-Can you demonstrate that YOUR god exists, using OUR standard of evidence?

 

Are those interesting enough?

 

Can you answer them?

 

 

The moral quality of founder does not make a religion true but certainly better. My view is that religions like Buddhism and Christianity are definitely better than Islam because people like Jesus and Buddha are far better human beings than Mohammed.

 

"Jesus and Buddha can stay but Moses and Mohammed must go! "

 

 

What is standard of evidence for the existence of God??

 

 

Well, I am somewhat familiar with physics. And a couple of years ago, I came up with a proof of God's existence based on physics and mathematics. I showed the proof to 2 PhD scientists and they were quite impressed. ( One in chemistry and one in meteorology ). So was my cousin who is an M.D.

 

But the most important thing is that I convinced myself! I no longer wonder about the existence question. I am rather confident about existence of God.

[JayL]

Hey, someone gave me 'authentic Christian believer label'. Thank you. That is so sweet. As I said in this post, I have been in and out of Christianity - about 3 cycles. This time, I mean to stay. I gotta fight hard against brilliant intellectual attacks from atheists here ! LOL ( I am not being sarcastic. I am actually a bit apprehensive. )

[JayL]

If Bart Ehrman's arguments are good, it doesn't make any difference whether or not he's angry (or whether or not someone perceives him as such).

 

JayL, what are your specific rebuttals to Ehrman's actual arguments/positions/opinions?

 

I'm interested in hearing about this after you've answered mine and oddbird1963's previous questions. Thanks.

 

 

Bart Ehrman thinks Jesus disciples made up stories about resurrection because they want to make Jesus into the promised Messiah. It is pretty same argument people had for years. Only thing different I noticed was that he sounded very angry for some reason.

[JayL]

Belief does not cost you too much.

 

I challenge you to believe in Santa Clause. Can you do it? If you can't you go to hell.

 

Doesn't cost too much huh?

 

 

 

Santa Claus has nothing to do with hell as far as I know. Are you making things up as you go along?? I don't even follow your logic.

[JayL]

<< What Islam teaches about peace and what Christianity teaches about peace makes no difference until you answer why you think the Christian God exists and not Allah. You haven't dealt with how you determined one was true and the other is not true. >>

 

 

 

Actually my proof based on physics and mathematics does go into this distinction and it makes some headway here. I did conclude that the God of the Bible is likely to be real. Allah of the Koran is NOT supported by my proof. So I am relatively sure that the God of the Bible is the real one.

 

Another way of saying is that the God of the Bible is consistent with my proof of God's existence.

[JayL]

Jesus also said to take up your sword.

 

He called a Canaanite woman a dog and only relented to heal her kid after she came up with a clever comeback that impressed him.

 

He frequently got angry at his disciples with little or no warning (Beware the yeast of the Pharisees... BEWARE! WOOOOO! Do you still not understand?)

 

 

 

Not quite taking up sword. He told disciples that they may need swords from that point on - to defend themselves against the crazies.

 

 

Jesus called the Canaanite women a 'cute puppy'. It was not a derogatory term.

 

 

Jesus did warn his disciples. But it was not in anger. However he did get impatient with their progress. His common admonishment is 'Oh, ye of little faith'.

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

<< What Islam teaches about peace and what Christianity teaches about peace makes no difference until you answer why you think the Christian God exists and not Allah. You haven't dealt with how you determined one was true and the other is not true. >>

 

 

 

Actually my proof based on physics and mathematics does go into this distinction and it makes some headway here. I did conclude that the God of the Bible is likely to be real. Allah of the Koran is NOT supported by my proof. So I am relatively sure that the God of the Bible is the real one.

 

Another way of saying is that the God of the Bible is consistent with my proof of God's existence.

 

Could you lay out your proof of god and explain how it works please?

 

Also, what were the miracles you experienced?

[Vigile]

Belief does not cost you too much.

 

I challenge you to believe in Santa Clause. Can you do it? If you can't you go to hell.

 

Doesn't cost too much huh?

 

 

 

Santa Claus has nothing to do with hell as far as I know. Are you making things up as you go along?? I don't even follow your logic.

 

The logic is simple. It's impossible to make yourself believe in something. Either you are presented with persuasive evidence that makes you believe or you just believe because you were indoctrinated as a youth. I cannot believe even though I was indoctrinated in my youth because as I examined the evidence it fell apart. Given that I cannot make myself believe the cost is impossible.

[lunaticheathen]

Jesus called the Canaanite women a 'cute puppy'. It was not a derogatory term.

 

WOW! You really have no idea what you're reading.

[Deva]

Well, I am somewhat familiar with physics. And a couple of years ago, I came up with a proof of God's existence based on physics and mathematics. I showed the proof to 2 PhD scientists and they were quite impressed. ( One in chemistry and one in meteorology ). So was my cousin who is an M.D.

 

OK, lets see the proof based on physics and mathematics. I am not proficient in higher math myself, but we have some math teachers and professors on here - some of us should be able to understand it. So let's have it.

[Che]

Well, I am somewhat familiar with physics. And a couple of years ago, I came up with a proof of God's existence based on physics and mathematics. I showed the proof to 2 PhD scientists and they were quite impressed. ( One in chemistry and one in meteorology ). So was my cousin who is an M.D.

 

OK, lets see the proof based on physics and mathematics. I am not proficient in higher math myself, but we have some math teachers and professors on here - some of us should be able to understand it. So let's have it.

 

I'm so excited! A logical argument for the existence of god. And bible god at that. I wasn't convinced by trees, a banana or looking in a mirror. This must be much better.

[Phanta]

<< nor do I find the message to be enlightened, instead being brutally repressive.

For me, it was the discovery that it's an ultimatum based on fear, and not a fluffy doctrine of love, that soured the initial intoxication that was felt by thinking I was aligning myself with a noble and righteous being. >>

 

 

Is the message 'brutally repressive'?? Well, Jesus did warn a lot about hell. And that is scary. But what if he is right? What if there is really the hell waiting for a lot of people? My rational stance is, if you are not sure, buy the insurance. And it turns out that the insurance - receiving salvation in Jesus - is essentially free. You don't have to do anything. Just accept the Gospel message about Jesus dying on the cross and resurrecting. And you are insured and you can sleep well at night without fear of death.

 

If there is a hell, Jesus created it. Manipulating people through fear is emotional blackmail. Low.

 

Phanta

[Ouroboros]

Well, I am somewhat familiar with physics. And a couple of years ago, I came up with a proof of God's existence based on physics and mathematics. I showed the proof to 2 PhD scientists and they were quite impressed. ( One in chemistry and one in meteorology ). So was my cousin who is an M.D.

Really? I'm curious. What level of math does it require? Calculus, Linear Algebra, Sets?

 

I think that God is the definition of 1/0.

 

No wait, actually I think God is √-1.

 

But the most important thing is that I convinced myself! I no longer wonder about the existence question. I am rather confident about existence of God.

It can change.

 

Hey, someone gave me 'authentic Christian believer label'. Thank you. That is so sweet. As I said in this post, I have been in and out of Christianity - about 3 cycles. This time, I mean to stay. I gotta fight hard against brilliant intellectual attacks from atheists here ! LOL ( I am not being sarcastic. I am actually a bit apprehensive. )

I know we're a bit overwhelming. But why is belief something you have to fight for? Think about it.

 

Some Christians try to compare belief in God with "belief in the chair your sitting on."

 

But I don't have to try to convince myself that there is a sun coming up tomorrow, or that the chair is under my butt. So why does anyone have to work on the conviction of Jesus? Why isn't it just natural? If it is supernatural, it would be even more than natural, and super-easy, but it's not, is it?

 

 

Bart Ehrman thinks Jesus disciples made up stories about resurrection because they want to make Jesus into the promised Messiah. It is pretty same argument people had for years. Only thing different I noticed was that he sounded very angry for some reason.

You know Ehrman was a Christian at first, but over the years he lost the faith too, just like us. And there are other scholars who has gone through the same process. They know the Bible extremely well, just as you know physics, and they deny the Jesus you believe in. Think about it. You proved God using a mathematical formula in physics, and Ehrman, Price, and several others, proved Jesus as a non-God-son using the Bible and historical documents. At least they proved it to themselves. And most of them did not do it on purpose. They went to school to get a degree in the field of their faith, so their purpose wasn't to get a degree in something they didn't believe in. But yet, they lost their belief, based on what they read. I know there are scholars who still believe, but doesn't this show you that the Bible, history, anecdotes, and such, is not enough for some people to believe? It's no magic.

 

 

Santa Claus has nothing to do with hell as far as I know. Are you making things up as you go along?? I don't even follow your logic.

His logic is simple.

 

Most of us here do not have any doubts about our unbelief. We are extremely convinced that your God and Jesus are just made up stuff. Actually, I'm so convinced that I don't even have to think about it if I am or not. I don't have to work myself up in the morning with some prayer and a Bible verse to fight of the evil forces that try to convince me otherwise.

 

Basically, unbelief is the default position. It's the starting point. You need additional energy, some kick, some cause, for this point to move into belief in a magical being.

 

Santa Claus is an imaginary being. Something we know isn't real. Unfortunately, Vigil and I do not believe in Santa Claus, or Jesus. We have the same position, conviction, view, idea, position, feeling, and thoughts abut Jesus, as we do with Santa Claus. They're treated the same because they are the same.

 

So for me to start believing in Jesus is just like start believing in Santa.

[Thackerie]

...

 

Jesus called the Canaanite women a 'cute puppy'. It was not a derogatory term. ...

 

 

Come on, guys. This one has to be a troll. I can't believe that even the fundiest fundie above the age of 6 or so would say anything so stupid in seriousness.

[Ouroboros]

I actually think he's the real deal. But I could be wrong.