In And Out Of Faith

[JayL]

 

To me the idea of house churches was in the end the only acceptable form of church. Everyone has a ministry, everyone is important. I left the church 8 years ago, so I am not up to date. And you can imagine, that the vineyard fellowship and later the "jesus army" in England (http://www.newcreation.org.uk/nccc/articles_ourstory.shtml) and even the house church movement could not help me to stay in xianity. Without a group there is no chance to keep your faith and with a group there is no chance to remain intellectual honest.

 

 

Jesus Army?? Wow, I never heard of that. I hope it is OK despite the strange name! Well Michael, I hope and pray that your intellectual quest will bring you closer to Christian faith some day. I am so glad to hear from a former Vineyard member on this board. Wow. You made my day.

[JayL]

JayL,

 

Sorry to say, but according to these Real Christians, Vineyard is not a Biblical Christianity: http://www.mmoutreachinc.com/cult_groups/vineyard.html

 

So I guess we will see you in Hell after all.

 

 

Looking at their website, their organization is called "MacGregor Ministries", named after one Mr. McGregor. Do you know the guy? I don't. So why should you take their criticism seriously?

[Michael]

Well Michael, I hope and pray that your intellectual quest will bring you closer to Christian faith some day. I am so glad to hear from a former Vineyard member on this board. Wow. You made my day.

 

Well Jay, my intellectual quest lead me away from god. Xianity is an emotional thing. It does not work on an intellectual foundation. I loved C.S. Lewis because I thought that "thinking" and faith can walk together. I was wrong. Stop thinking and you will remain a good xian. Remain thinking and you will get into trouble (believe me, because I have the gift of prophesy ). Stay inside the secure walls of the church, otherwise there will be trouble ahead.

 

Thanks for the prayer offering, although it will not work.

[NotBlinded]

...Well Michael, I hope and pray that your intellectual quest will bring you closer to Christian faith some day...

I wish you could realize how insulting this sounds to us. My intellectual quest has brought me to a place of peace that I have never experienced before. Now, go on and admit that your path is not the only path...please.

[JayL]

Well Michael, I hope and pray that your intellectual quest will bring you closer to Christian faith some day. I am so glad to hear from a former Vineyard member on this board. Wow. You made my day.

 

Well Jay, my intellectual quest lead me away from god. Xianity is an emotional thing. It does not work on an intellectual foundation. I loved C.S. Lewis because I thought that "thinking" and faith can walk together. I was wrong. Stop thinking and you will remain a good xian. Remain thinking and you will get into trouble (believe me, because I have the gift of prophesy ). Stay inside the secure walls of the church, otherwise there will be trouble ahead.

 

Thanks for the prayer offering, although it will not work.

 

 

Actually charismatic churches do primarily appeal to emotions. But I would not say that Christianity is mostly an emotional thing. There is a strong intellectual side to it as well.

 

But all in all, as my past shows one can 'go in and out of faith' a few times. I am fighting hard in this lion's den to remain alive as a Christian!! LOL

[lunaticheathen]

Fuck Christianity. Fuck Christards. I hope they die, while killing the muslims.

I don't like anyone threaten or wish people dead here. So please, can we tone that down a little?

 

 

 

People are just so emotional about religion. I attribute a lot of these anger to two things - SEX and HELL. Sex: I once had a college roommate who was brought up in a devout Christian home and he felt he missed out a lot on sex because of his upbringing. And that made him curse God in a terrible way. Sex is a powerful emotion and it can sometimes make people hate God and hate Jesus Christ. ( Jesus Christ, by the way, led very chaste life by all evidence and is most likely to have died a virgin. )

 

That is one and the other is hell. People think they have been misled and put in fear of hell by Christian doctrines. And they strike back in anger.

 

Well, I have been in and out of Christian faith, now back, for the third time. And my feeling is that there is no real reason to hate. Both phases have their ups and downs. Remember Saul who used to hate Christians with passion. And guess what? He became one. So if your feelings are very intense, you may end up in the other side! So perhaps it is better to be cool and rational. That way, you may stay as an atheist!

 

First, sorry to Ouroboros. I'll try to keep a lid on my anger.

Second, my anger has nothing to do with sex, or hell. I have plenty of sex, and no fear of your boogey man. I'm angry because I have been mentally tortured and ABUSED by christians and christianity. And your goddamn motherfucking ARROGANCE. YOU piss me off because YOU think you know what I believe, and fuckwad, you DO NOT. I am not an atheist. I am a Pagan. Learn the fucking difference before you shoot your fucking mouth off.

I WILL NEVER BE CHRISTIAN AGAIN. I am not a waffler like you. I have been out for TEN YEARS. I never looked back, NOT ONCE, or did you miss that post I made on this very thread telling you that? Jay, I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire. You're an arrogant little prick, and one of many reasons I left your death cult. And Saul (Paul) was a fucking nutcase. Before AND after conversion. He kept the same hateful Abrahamic god too. I reject the Abrahamic god, and listen up, he's not the only god in town. You just think so because your childish religion has painted the whole world in black and white. It's not christian OR atheist, fucko.

Your view of this world is so myopic, I should pity you, but really, your arrogance and fetish for a used car salesman just pisses me off all over again.

[JayL]

...Well Michael, I hope and pray that your intellectual quest will bring you closer to Christian faith some day...

I wish you could realize how insulting this sounds to us. My intellectual quest has brought me to a place of peace that I have never experienced before. Now, go on and admit that your path is not the only path...please.

 

 

 

I think intellectual questioning can help people to break out of abusive religions. So I am all for intellectual quests and freedom of religion, freedom of conscience, etc. So if your intellectual quest brought you peace and calm, I am all for it. If Christianity is a true religion, it has offer only good to people - ideally! " God is light and there is no darkness in Him " Or " God is love ", etc.

[Realist]

But all in all, as my past shows one can 'go in and out of faith' a few times.

 

.... I do not actually believe that comment! From my experience it can only be one of two things. You NEVER were or ever have been a "true" christian .... or otherwise you never truly lost your faith! There is no middle ground on this! If you TRULY lose your faith ... there is NO going back!

[JayL]

Fuck Christianity. Fuck Christards. I hope they die, while killing the muslims.

I don't like anyone threaten or wish people dead here. So please, can we tone that down a little?

 

 

 

People are just so emotional about religion. I attribute a lot of these anger to two things - SEX and HELL. Sex: I once had a college roommate who was brought up in a devout Christian home and he felt he missed out a lot on sex because of his upbringing. And that made him curse God in a terrible way. Sex is a powerful emotion and it can sometimes make people hate God and hate Jesus Christ. ( Jesus Christ, by the way, led very chaste life by all evidence and is most likely to have died a virgin. )

 

That is one and the other is hell. People think they have been misled and put in fear of hell by Christian doctrines. And they strike back in anger.

 

Well, I have been in and out of Christian faith, now back, for the third time. And my feeling is that there is no real reason to hate. Both phases have their ups and downs. Remember Saul who used to hate Christians with passion. And guess what? He became one. So if your feelings are very intense, you may end up in the other side! So perhaps it is better to be cool and rational. That way, you may stay as an atheist!

 

First, sorry to Ouroboros. I'll try to keep a lid on my anger.

Second, my anger has nothing to do with sex, or hell. I have plenty of sex, and no fear of your boogey man. I'm angry because I have been mentally tortured and ABUSED by christians and christianity. And your goddamn motherfucking ARROGANCE. YOU piss me off because YOU think you know what I believe, and fuckwad, you DO NOT. I am not an atheist. I am a Pagan. Learn the fucking difference before you shoot your fucking mouth off.

I WILL NEVER BE CHRISTIAN AGAIN. I am not a waffler like you. I have been out for TEN YEARS. I never looked back, NOT ONCE, or did you miss that post I made on this very thread telling you that? Jay, I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire. You're an arrogant little prick, and one of many reasons I left your death cult. And Saul (Paul) was a fucking nutcase. Before AND after conversion. He kept the same hateful Abrahamic god too. I reject the Abrahamic god, and listen up, he's not the only god in town. You just think so because your childish religion has painted the whole world in black and white. It's not christian OR atheist, fucko.

Your view of this world is so myopic, I should pity you, but really, your arrogance and fetish for a used car salesman just pisses me off all over again.

 

 

First I wish you calm and peace. Despite some bad churches, and some bad Christians, Christianity as whole is not THAT bad.

 

 

But how did you escape from that mental torture and abuse?? Was it your intellectual questioning? Or your interest in paganism??

[JayL]

But all in all, as my past shows one can 'go in and out of faith' a few times.

 

.... I do not actually believe that comment! From my experience it can only be one of two things. You NEVER were or ever have been a "true" christian .... or otherwise you never truly lost your faith! There is no middle ground on this! If you TRULY lose your faith ... there is NO going back!

 

 

But people grow and change. There was a time in my life when I was quite angry at a fundamentalist church I used to attend.

[lunaticheathen]

First I wish you calm and peace. Despite some bad churches, and some bad Christians, Christianity as whole is not THAT bad. I think it is your anger that is unusual.

 

I'll be calm when assholes like you stop insisting that YOUR way is so wonderful, nice, and the only fucking one, and you take responsibility for the christians that DO COMMIT VIOLENCE. AND THEY DO EXIST! Until then, I see all Abrahamics the same, so you're just like a muslim to me.

 

If you think my anger is unusual, you haven't been on the board long. Or you're purposely BLIND.

[JayL]

 

I'll be calm when assholes like you stop insisting that YOUR way is so wonderful, nice, and the only fucking one, and you take responsibility for the christians that DO COMMIT VIOLENCE. AND THEY DO EXIST! Until then, I see all Abrahamics the same, so you're just like a muslim to me.

 

If you think my anger is unusual, you haven't been on the board long. Or you're purposely BLIND.

 

 

But would you mind sharing how you escaped or freed yourself from that mental torture and abuse?? Was it your intellectual questioning? Or your interest in paganism??

[NotBlinded]

I think intellectual questioning can help people to break out of abusive religions. So I am all for intellectual quests and freedom of religion, freedom of conscience, etc. So if your intellectual quest brought you peace and calm, I am all for it. If Christianity is a true religion, it has offer only good to people - ideally! " God is light and there is no darkness in Him " Or " God is love ", etc.

Yes. Now take the bolded part into deep thought...

 

There is something more there to Christianity (beyond exclusivity) and I will admit that. What I can't stand is the superficial understanding that puts one on a high-horse, whether they have learned to ride or not.

 

Speaking of darkness in God:

 

Let this be my prayer; but do, dear Timothy, in the diligent exercise of mystical contemplation, leave behind the senses and the operations of the intellect, and all things sensible and intellectual, and all things in the world of being and nonbeing, that you may arise by unknowing towards the union, as far as is attainable, with it that transcends all being and all knowledge.(1) For by the unceasing and absolute renunciation of yourself and of all things you may be borne on high, through pure and entire self-abnegation, into the superessential Radiance of the Divine Darkness.

 

But these things are not to be disclosed to the uninitiated, by whom I mean those attached to the objects of human thought, and who there is no superessential Reality beyond, and who imagine that by their own understanding they know it that has made Darkness Its secret place. And if the principles of the divine Mysteries are beyond the understanding of these, what is to be said of others still more incapable thereof, who describe the transcendental First Cause of all by characteristics drawn from the lowest order of beings, while they deny that it is in any way above the images which they fashion after various designs; whereas they should affirm that, while it possesses all the positive attributes of the universe (being the Universal Cause) yet, in a more strict sense, it does not possess them, since it transcends them all; wherefore there is no contradiction between the affirmations and the negations, inasmuch as it infinitely precedes all conceptions of deprivation, being beyond all positive and negative distinctions.

 

Thus the blessed Bartholomew asserts that the divine science is both vast and minute, and that the Gospel is great and broad, yet concise and short; signifying by this, that the beneficent Cause of all is most eloquent, yet utters few words, or rather is altogether silent, as having neither (human) speech nor (human) understanding, because it is super-essentially exalted above created things, and reveals itself in Its naked Truth to those alone who pass beyond all that is pure or impure, and ascend above the topmost altitudes of holy things, and who, leaving behind them all divine light and sound and heavenly utterances, plunge into the Darkness where truly dwells, as the Oracles declare, that ONE who is beyond all.

 

...

 

and through the inactivity of all his reasoning powers is united by his highest faculty to it that is wholly unknowable; thus by knowing nothing he knows That which is beyond his knowledge.

Mystical Theology, Dionysius the Areopagite

This is very close to the Buddhist's Void or Nothing.

 

You can't lay claim to this from any tradition, yet they all speak the same language when dealing with the more profound aspects.

 

My intellectual path lead me straight into not knowing anything.

[Realist]

[

But people grow and change. There was a time in my life when I was quite angry at a fundamentalist church I used to attend.

.... people MAY grow and change, but they NEVER go back to believing in Santa Claus! I do not think you realise the EXTREME depths most of us have gone to in forming our conclusions! That is why many on here get upset to yours (and other) christians hollow comments!

[JayL]

[

But people grow and change. There was a time in my life when I was quite angry at a fundamentalist church I used to attend.

.... people MAY grow and change, but they NEVER go back to believing in Santa Claus! I do not think you realise the EXTREME depths most of us have gone to in forming our conclusions! That is why many on here get upset to yours (and other) christians hollow comments!

 

 

Or could it be that there are wide diversity in Christian churches and people can get hurt badly in some? Like this member who talks about 'mental torture and abuse'? Or perhaps people who were victimized by pedophile priests? And they have legitimate, white hot anger against the church. And they will denounce Christianity to no end.

 

But then there are other people who are quite happy in their 'versions' of Christian faith and in their churches.

 

It could be that we are all growing and hopefully getting better - whether we are in churches or in agnosticism or in paganism.

[Legion]

My intellectual path lead me straight into not knowing anything.

I think you overstate things NotBlinded. But if you claim to know less now than you did when you were younger then I believe I understand through shared experience.

[lunaticheathen]

 

I'll be calm when assholes like you stop insisting that YOUR way is so wonderful, nice, and the only fucking one, and you take responsibility for the christians that DO COMMIT VIOLENCE. AND THEY DO EXIST! Until then, I see all Abrahamics the same, so you're just like a muslim to me.

 

If you think my anger is unusual, you haven't been on the board long. Or you're purposely BLIND.

 

 

But would you mind sharing how you escaped or freed yourself from that mental torture and abuse?? Was it your intellectual questioning? Or your interest in paganism??

 

THIS is my story for what started my abandonment of the poison of christianity, if you MUST know. It's from another Lion's Den thread, where christians try to claim moral superiority.

Morally superior my left labia.

I went to a christian school, "nondenominational", but by default of numbers, Baptist. Not that it matters. Boys would grope girls in the halls, and "smack" them on the rear every day. It was tolerated by teachers, administrators, and the girls themselves. My mother witnessed it, and told the headmaster "if one of these boys touches one of my girls, they are trained in martial arts. The boys will be hurt. Be warned." One of the boys groped me. I beat the crap out of him. I got in trouble. The boy wasn't even talked to about his behavior.

By their morals, I "tempted" him, and besides, "boys will be boys" and I shouldn't have gotten violent, no matter how I was trained to deal with a perceived threat to my being. I threatened to sue if they suspended me. It was dropped.

That was the beginning of the end of my days in christianity. They do NOT have the moral upper hand.

 

After that, I started reading the Bible. YES, THE BIBLE. I was looking for the PROPER way for christians to act. I found a contradictory, idiotic text with an angry, evil god. I went to secret agnosticism. I didn't tell anyone, since I was in a christian school where I was already in trouble for DEFENDING MYSELF AGAINST A PERVERT.

After that, I tried Baha'i, but it was the same god who didn't listen. I came to Paganism because I was studying EVERYTHING. See, I saw that there are more than two or three religions or ways of seeing the world. Something you might find alien. Pagan beliefs were beliefs I already held, without being told to. Christianity was just trying to make me something I wasn't. Pagan is who I am. I have my reasons and my experiences. No two-bit fake intellectual on a board will convince me otherwise.

 

Now, back to the thread. Your proof? Oh wait, it's secret, na na na boo boo. Ugh, you Abrahamics make me ill.

[JayL]

and through the inactivity of all his reasoning powers is united by his highest faculty to it that is wholly unknowable; thus by knowing nothing he knows That which is beyond his knowledge.

Mystical Theology, Dionysius the Areopagite

This is very close to the Buddhist's Void or Nothing.

 

You can't lay claim to this from any tradition, yet they all speak the same language when dealing with the more profound aspects.

 

My intellectual path lead me straight into not knowing anything.

 

 

That is very interesting. I don't know what to make of these contemplation paths. But whether they are Buddhist monks or Trappists, they seem to be fine people.

[lunaticheathen]

[

But people grow and change. There was a time in my life when I was quite angry at a fundamentalist church I used to attend.

.... people MAY grow and change, but they NEVER go back to believing in Santa Claus! I do not think you realise the EXTREME depths most of us have gone to in forming our conclusions! That is why many on here get upset to yours (and other) christians hollow comments!

 

 

Or could it be that there are wide diversity in Christian churches and people can get hurt badly in some? Like this member who talks about 'mental torture and abuse'? Or perhaps people who were victimized by pedophile priests? And they have legitimate, white hot anger against the church. And they will denounce Christianity to no end.

 

But then there are other people who are quite happy in their 'versions' of Christian faith and in their churches.

 

It could be that we are all growing and hopefully getting better - whether we are in churches or in agnosticism or in paganism.

Wow, thanks for belittling my experiences and pain. How Christian of you.

You're Christian. YOU'RE ALL CHRISTIAN. Don't fucking try to distance yourself from those who cause harm. It's YOUR GOD.

[Realist]

[

But people grow and change. There was a time in my life when I was quite angry at a fundamentalist church I used to attend.

.... people MAY grow and change, but they NEVER go back to believing in Santa Claus! I do not think you realise the EXTREME depths most of us have gone to in forming our conclusions! That is why many on here get upset to yours (and other) christians hollow comments!

 

 

Or could it be that there are wide diversity in Christian churches and people can get hurt badly in some? Like this member who talks about 'mental torture and abuse'? Or perhaps people who were victimized by pedophile priests? And they have legitimate, white hot anger against the church. And they will denounce Christianity to no end.

 

But then there are other people who are quite happy in their 'versions' of Christian faith and in their churches.

 

It could be that we are all growing and hopefully getting better - whether we are in churches or in agnosticism or in paganism.

.... I do not think you bothered to read what I wrote! Or are you just a typical christian? Pick and choose the bits you want?

 

You CANNOT go back to believing in Santa Claus .... it has NOTHING to do with Santa Claus being an abuser or whatever! The proof is TOO great he does not exist! That is the strength of MOST ex-christians beliefs! You HAVE to get outside your TINY little brainwashed square to see that though!!

 

I have to get to work now ... will check this out later.

[JayL]

 

Boys would grope girls in the halls, and "smack" them on the rear every day. It was tolerated by teachers, administrators, and the girls themselves.

 

 

I wonder if it was tolerated because of their view on man and woman. That Adam was created in image of God, women are to stay silent in church, man is the head of family, wives are supposed to submit to their husband, etc. So if the man is the main thing and he feels 'tempted' by girls, we can't blame the guy! Is that the reasoning? And girls go along because they also have been indoctrinated into this way of thinking.

 

Well, anyhow, thanks for sharing.

[NotBlinded]

My intellectual path lead me straight into not knowing anything.

I think you overstate things NotBlinded. But if you claim to know less now than you did when you were younger then I believe I understand through shared experience.

Legion! Nice to "see" you again.

 

Isn't it funny that when we are young, we think we have all the answers to life then we grow up and realize the stupidity of thinking like that?

 

There is knowledge everywhere and we can never possibly gain all of it. Who is anyone to claim total knowledge of everything much less claiming complete knowledge of the unknown?

 

Yet, there is something to this agnosia. Call it silent insight I guess. Truth? Maybe with a little "t".

[Realist]

Or could it be that there are wide diversity in Christian churches and people can get hurt badly in some? Like this member who talks about 'mental torture and abuse'? Or perhaps people who were victimized by pedophile priests? And they have legitimate, white hot anger against the church. And they will denounce Christianity to no end.

 

But then there are other people who are quite happy in their 'versions' of Christian faith and in their churches.

 

It could be that we are all growing and hopefully getting better - whether we are in churches or in agnosticism or in paganism.

 

.... sorry my last post may be hard to read. Here it is again!

 

You CANNOT go back to believing in Santa Claus .... it has NOTHING to do with Santa Claus being an abuser or whatever! The proof is TOO great he does not exist! That is the strength of MOST ex-christians beliefs! You HAVE to get outside your TINY little brainwashed square to see that though!!

 

I have to get to work now ... will check this out later.

[NotBlinded]

That is very interesting. I don't know what to make of these contemplation paths. But whether they are Buddhist monks or Trappists, they seem to be fine people.

Dionysus the Aeropagite was a 5th - 6th century Christian theologian.

 

Maybe you could try "contemplating" a little and see where there are common themes? Or, you could stay where you are, but you might consider some ridding lessons.

[lunaticheathen]

 

Boys would grope girls in the halls, and "smack" them on the rear every day. It was tolerated by teachers, administrators, and the girls themselves.

 

 

I wonder if it was tolerated because of their view on man and woman. That Adam was created in image of God, women are to stay silent in church, man is the head of family, wives are supposed to submit to their husband, etc. So if the man is the main thing and he feels 'tempted' by girls, we can't blame the guy! Is that the reasoning? And girls go along because they also have been indoctrinated into this way of thinking.

 

Well, anyhow, thanks for sharing.

 

It was tolerated because they're disgusting, that belief is disgusting, Christianity is disgusting. I tried to believe it, to fit in, but I have too much sanity, piss, and vinegar in me to put up with that stupid shit. Which is why I left. Which is why I will NEVER GO BACK. I haven't yet. Ten Years. I left out of anger, found perfectly good reasons to stay gone, other than the allowance of abuse, which should be ENOUGH.