Im A Christian Again

[Guest end3]

Those passsages seem consistant with the symbolism and general message throughout the Bible...bitter water, the woman, the husband, etc. The husband (Christ),sinless and the woman, the bride(humanity), being brought to a place without sin. When you read it in this context, it seems much less witchcrafty.

[Ouroboros]

Those passsages seem consistant with the symbolism and general message throughout the Bible...bitter water, the woman, the husband, etc. The husband (Christ),sinless and the woman, the bride(humanity), being brought to a place without sin. When you read it in this context, it seems much less witchcrafty.

Sorry, but, not unsurprisingly, I have to disagree.

 

In context, it's very much witchcrafty.

 

Did God give those commands and laws to Israel only for the purpose of creating some kind of illustration of future events? But what about all the times Israel did execute that law? They wouldn't know it was just some prophetic analogy and not a law to actually follow. The Jews didn't know about Christ, crucifixion, or future events at that time, so they were screwed by God. "Do witch craft!" and they did. "Oh, I meant it to be a symbolic illustration for some magical things I would do in the future, sorry."

 

So, if they followed that law, they used magic.

[Guest end3]

Those passsages seem consistant with the symbolism and general message throughout the Bible...bitter water, the woman, the husband, etc. The husband (Christ),sinless and the woman, the bride(humanity), being brought to a place without sin. When you read it in this context, it seems much less witchcrafty.

Sorry, but, not unsurprisingly, I have to disagree.

 

In context, it's very much witchcrafty.

 

Did God give those commands and laws to Israel only for the purpose of creating some kind of illustration of future events? But what about all the times Israel did execute that law? They wouldn't know it was just some prophetic analogy and not a law to actually follow. The Jews didn't know about Christ, crucifixion, or future events at that time, so they were screwed by God. "Do witch craft!" and they did. "Oh, I meant it to be a symbolic illustration for some magical things I would do in the future, sorry."

 

So, if they followed that law, they used magic.

 

 

The way I view the OT law is as if it were a way for the people to exist within Heaven itself......there would have to be accounting for sin, I assume the spread thereof, and atonement....jealousy showed up and atonement for such in a marriage...so would not God be consistant in that the Christ message being the same as this message? I don't see that is a variation within society in that sense.

 

Sure, God could have done the omni-thing and fixed it, but we have been down that path before. I am just saying from the cursory level that I glanced at it, it had all the markings of the Christ message.

[Ouroboros]

Sure, God could have done the omni-thing and fixed it, but we have been down that path before. I am just saying from the cursory level that I glanced at it, it had all the markings of the Christ message.

But still, the Jews wouldn't have known that, so they would have lived and practiced a pagan tradition without knowing better.

[OnceConvinced]

OnceConvinced,

 

I did questions the realiability of the Bible when I was going through my "de-conversion."

What keeps me believing in Him is not really the Word but my relationship with Him.

 

And yet you decided to switch off your brain and rely on faith instead. Sorry but I can't just switch off my brain like that.

 

 

Even if the Bible was mistranslated, it really does not bother me, nor am I suprised.

 

How can you even trust the bible if it's mistranslated? What you could be reading may not actually be what was intended.

 

That devil will do anything to get people not to believe in Him.

 

The devil does not need to do anything. God and the bible are quite capable of achieving that themselves without the need for any Freddie Krueger like character.

 

Ive always had a relationship with Him ever since I can remember. It was not handed down to me. No one in my family believes in God except my mom who calls herself a Catholic, but has never been to church. I find this strange. When I was in my doubting stage, I looked back at all the things God did for me, the things He told me, and I could not do anything but return to Him and say I am sorry.p

 

I started out the same as you. However when I was struggling in my faith and I looked back on the things I believed God had done for me I realised that he'd done nothing at all. There were other rational explanations for those things and none of them added up to God as much as I wanted to beleive they did.

 

I remember one time I was little and my parents were fighting that night. I was sad and I remember seeing "A MAN" in the house that was standing in the room with me. My mom told me this and that I said it was God. Children really dont lie...I really had no reason to lie then.

 

Doesn't it bother you that the main visitations from God (and the devil) happen at night when you're half asleep or were sleeping? Doesn't that tell you something. Even being in a sleepy state can play tricks on your mind. In fact I had a classic example of that last night. I woke up around 2am. I wasn't properly awake, I was still in that stage of going from sleep to consciousness. I clearly saw a man stooping over my bed. By instinct I took a wild swing at him, but there was no one there. My fist just touched the window and shattered it. I was lucky all I got was a small cut. It is as a result of this that I'm stting here typing this right now. Currently I have a workman fixing the window. Once he's done I'm off to work.

 

So when you say that your events happened at night I have to wonder just how conscious you were at the time and whether your mind was playing tricks on you. I have even heard audible voices when in that semi-conscious state. I could claim that that man stooping over my bed was the devil trying to attack me. But I'm not that stupid. I know a little bit about the human brain and how it can fool you when it's not completely conscious.

 

I have a lot of experiences like this. A ton.....so even though the Word of God is important, it is my experiences that make me believe. They are highly unusual for a child, especailly one that was not brought up Christian. Also I was born in Poland, so this was all in Poland during Communism.

Your mind can play tricks on you. For some they take those tricks seriously. I bet you have lots of dreams too and thing that some are from God because they seem so vivid and meaningful.

 

No one can ever take that away from me....that is why I believe no matter what anyone says. I know my own experiences.

 

You say that you know your own experiences. I do not agree with that statement. You believe because you want to. You let your own subconscious fool you and make something that is not real into something real in your heart and in your head and so it has given you a false reality.

 

Do those words sound familiar to you? Yes, you made similar statements towards us earlier in the thread. See? Not nice when someone accuses you of not knowing your own experiences. Now hopefully you will see it from our point of view.

 

No one can ever take way my experiences either... that is why I am unable to believe no matter what anyone says. I know my own experiences.

[Phanta]

Those passsages seem consistant with the symbolism and general message throughout the Bible...bitter water, the woman, the husband, etc. The husband (Christ),sinless and the woman, the bride(humanity), being brought to a place without sin. When you read it in this context, it seems much less witchcrafty.

 

In the verses, God states there is the possibility the woman is innocent and the man is jealous in error. To use your prophecy interpretation, that would mean that God is sometimes jealous in error. God makes an error in judgement? I don't think you believe that.

 

The Jews did these Pagany things because they were still pretty Pagany as they developed the text of the Torah (see also Rachel's Pagan house idols stolen from her father's house). But it was YHWH who told them to do the witchcraft, according to the Jews--a direct message.

 

Ouroborus's questions resonate in me:

 

'Did God give those commands and laws to Israel only for the purpose of creating some kind of illustration of future events? But what about all the times Israel did execute that law? They wouldn't know it was just some prophetic analogy and not a law to actually follow. The Jews didn't know about Christ, crucifixion, or future events at that time, so they were screwed by God. "Do witch craft!" and they did. "Oh, I meant it to be a symbolic illustration for some magical things I would do in the future, sorry."'

 

Later, Christians would decide magic stuff wasn't OK, but there it is in the OT, an unbreakable set of ancient books. So, no getting rid of the witchcraft references as demanded by God.

 

BTW, your repeated portrayal of male as the sinless Christ and female as representing sinful bride humanity is offensive. I remind myself that this kind of thing comes from a really hurt and damaged place, about propagators' personal problems. I do have compassion. I reckon centuries of men shackled 'til death--or else!!--to women who were bad matches for them was a big contributor to personal misery of the males who, as those with power to develop philosophical texts, used their social position to write, glorify and institutionalize a book that uses the female gender so badly in theological metaphor. That's wrong.

 

I'm sad that you are both drawn to the illustration and active in propagating it. What a shame.

 

Phanta

[Ouroboros]

BTW, your repeated portrayal of male as the sinless Christ and female as representing sinful bride humanity is offensive. I remind myself that this kind of thing comes from a really hurt and damaged place, about propagators' personal problems. I do have compassion. I reckon centuries of men shackled 'til death--or else!!--to women who were bad matches for them was a big contributor to personal misery of the males who, as those with power to develop philosophical texts, used their social position to write, glorify and institutionalize a book that uses the female gender so badly in theological metaphor. That's wrong.

That's a damn good point too.

 

So, we should not consider that law, given by God, as a pagan influenced law, but instead as the illustration of the sexist prejudice from a patriarchal society... yeah, soooo much better. *NOT*.

[OnceConvinced]

Surely she is overwhelmed. I always find it of interest, though, to see what, then, a visitor chooses from the mass of input to focus his or her attention on.

 

Phanta

 

 

Yeah, no doubt she is overwhelmed, but still, if she really does have the holy spirit on her side, then it means she should be overwhelming us with her wisdom and knowledge. It should be her that has the unfair advantage.

 

As far as that adultry test is concerned, that's a personal favourite of mine. If that's Godly wisdom, then it's not saying much for God. To me it's irrefutable proof that the bible is ancienct man's wisdom, not God's.

[OnceConvinced]

Those passsages seem consistant with the symbolism and general message throughout the Bible...bitter water, the woman, the husband, etc. The husband (Christ),sinless and the woman, the bride(humanity), being brought to a place without sin. When you read it in this context, it seems much less witchcrafty.

 

So you want to take it as symbolic? You have to take it out of context to do that. Read the scriptures around it. None of it's meant to be taken symbolically. I have chatted with Jews who say that this scripture was indeed taken literally back in the day. It was considered a legitimate test.

[Nara]

Overcame Faith,

 

The enemy has something to do with those horrible things. Through Jesus many people have been emotioanlly and physically healed. Through Jesus many people have been able to have hope, been able to stop drinking and doing drugs. Through Jesus many marriages have been saved. The list goes on and on.

 

 

I think Jesus should tell my husband to have sex with me. Damn! It has been a year. My husband speaks to Jesus all day. You think that many marriages have been saved through Jesus. But, Jesus was never married, never had sex or children (unless one believes in the Da Vinci Code), what does he know about troubled marriages?

[Shyone]

He created us....we need to accept this fact first.

Or she created us. Or it created us. What created us depends on view, not only on your words.

Not to be nit-picky, but our parents created us.

[Ouroboros]

He created us....we need to accept this fact first.

Or she created us. Or it created us. What created us depends on view, not only on your words.

Not to be nit-picky, but our parents created us.

Depends on what the word "created" means.

 

Is it intentional or accidental? Is it direct or indirect?

 

Exactly what brought a person to come into existence? Just the act of sex? The sperm? The fertilization process? The molecules reacting? Or the intent of the parents of having fun without protection? And how did the parents get to a point where they had the intent, willing and able, to do the act?

 

Cause and effect is a deep rabbit hole.

[Guest end3]

BTW, your repeated portrayal of male as the sinless Christ and female as representing sinful bride humanity is offensive. I remind myself that this kind of thing comes from a really hurt and damaged place, about propagators' personal problems. I do have compassion. I reckon centuries of men shackled 'til death--or else!!--to women who were bad matches for them was a big contributor to personal misery of the males who, as those with power to develop philosophical texts, used their social position to write, glorify and institutionalize a book that uses the female gender so badly in theological metaphor. That's wrong.

 

I'm sad that you are both drawn to the illustration and active in propagating it. What a shame.

 

Initially Eve was from Adam, right? So I don't see that there is gender disparagement in that one is distinctly less in some way...at one time they were one. And as the story goes, Christ would be the second Adam and the entity by faith, bride in this case, is also from His side....the water and blood that poured forth when He was crucified....water being the Spirit and blood being the Life to my understanding. The purpose of Christ is to restore the entity as One in God. How is this sexist? I don't see that.....certainly not a group of vengeful writings by unhappy husbands......although I can, by experience, see this possibility.

 

Ultimately the shame is that through misunderstanding, much like yours of the Bible, leads to an interpretation that convicts some human like Justna.......a point that Christ dwells on.....where's the true spirit of love in these matters....for the individual or for ourselves.

[lunaticheathen]

Yahweh is NOT jealous of Allah (Satan). He is jealous when we put our attention elsewhere (work, school etc).

 

What a twat. If he's all-everything, why is he jealous of us not CONSTANTLY kissing his ass? So we can, what, kiss his ass again in heaven forever? What a cunt.

 

There is no one greater than Yahweh.

 

He doesn't act it. He acts like a whiny little teenager with a rocker launcher.

[lunaticheathen]

Overcame Faith,

 

The enemy has something to do with those horrible things. Through Jesus many people have been emotioanlly and physically healed. Through Jesus many people have been able to have hope, been able to stop drinking and doing drugs. Through Jesus many marriages have been saved. The list goes on and on.

 

Praying to Jesus made me suicidal. Hm.

[lunaticheathen]

Vixen and Vigile,

 

Dont you two have something more productive to do? Im not being mean, I am just asking since your comments are mean, rude and without any thought.

 

Bullshit. Smileys don't make you nice when you tell us we're all going to hell. Fuck you, cunt.

[lunaticheathen]

You act like being a Christian is easy. Its not....you have to have faith, you have to be strong, overcome persecussion etc. Its not easy, you know you were a Christian once. Its not the easy way out.

 

It's hilariously easy when you're "Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow" (Rev Maynard, Opiate). And persecution? Fuck you, I had rocks thrown at me and my life threatened for being pagan.

It wasn't easy for me to be a christian, because I'm truthful, and it's a lie.

 

The reason I dont go back and dig up some stuff is because history books have been altered.

 

And the bible wasn't???

 

So why should I believe everything that is written?

 

But you believe every word of the bible. Makes sense. {/sarcasm}

 

When I was doing research for my MBA, I could find just as many articles and journals to support my claims as I did ones that did not. You can find anything you want now adays.

 

And doing a little bit of homework, finding which scholars didn't get their degrees from Cracker Jack boxes or the internet, what journals are peer-reviewed, must have made your wittle bwain huuuuurt.

 

And you better believe Satan has his hand in this making sure he does everything so that people dont believe God but him. He loves it when you leave Jesus and accept his theologies. He lives for it.

 

Stay stupid for Jeebus. Typical.

[Phanta]

I was basing my interpretation of that theme purely from your words, End: "The husband (Christ),sinless and the woman, the bride(humanity), being brought to a place without sin." This comparison glorifies one sex and degrades the other. It is offensive.

 

Eve coming from Adam, rather than the reverse concept, which is closer to nature, is men taking away the only thing that is purely a female act: yielding from their bodies new life. They were so unable to cope with that uniqueness, they took it away as well. It makes no sense for the male to be made first unless this was written by men with unaddressed personal issues.

 

If you see it in your own life, consider taking a closer look at that. How is it effecting your view of all women? How do you speak of them casually? What aspects of Christian theology you are drawn to, and do they reflect equality and mutual respect, or a system meant to underhandedly put women down via power and control by males over spiritual concepts?

 

Phanta

[Guest end3]

I was basing my interpretation of that theme purely from your words, End: "The husband (Christ),sinless and the woman, the bride(humanity), being brought to a place without sin." This comparison glorifies one sex and degrades the other. It is offensive.

 

Eve coming from Adam, rather than the reverse concept, which is closer to nature, is men taking away the only thing that is purely a female act: yielding from their bodies new life. They were so unable to cope with that uniqueness, they took it away as well. It makes no sense for the male to be made first unless this was written by men with unaddressed personal issues.

 

If you see it in your own life, consider taking a closer look at that. How is it effecting your view of all women? How do you speak of them casually? What aspects of Christian theology you are drawn to, and do they reflect equality and mutual respect, or a system meant to underhandedly put women down via power and control by males over spiritual concepts?

 

Phanta

 

Who cares about the interpretation.....again, you are using it as a tool, even in this post, as a means of separation. That is the point I am trying to make. We use transient truths like "the woman came first and the man took that away too" to essentially separate ourselves into some security. That is the wrong that you might underline.

 

 

Is it worth it to live like that? Is it to me as a believer or each of you as non-believers?

[Phanta]

I was basing my interpretation of that theme purely from your words, End: "The husband (Christ),sinless and the woman, the bride(humanity), being brought to a place without sin." This comparison glorifies one sex and degrades the other. It is offensive.

 

Eve coming from Adam, rather than the reverse concept, which is closer to nature, is men taking away the only thing that is purely a female act: yielding from their bodies new life. They were so unable to cope with that uniqueness, they took it away as well. It makes no sense for the male to be made first unless this was written by men with unaddressed personal issues.

 

If you see it in your own life, consider taking a closer look at that. How is it effecting your view of all women? How do you speak of them casually? What aspects of Christian theology you are drawn to, and do they reflect equality and mutual respect, or a system meant to underhandedly put women down via power and control by males over spiritual concepts?

 

Phanta

 

Who cares about the interpretation.....again, you are using it as a tool, even in this post, as a means of separation. That is the point I am trying to make. We use transient truths like "the woman came first and the man took that away too" to essentially separate ourselves into some security. That is the wrong that you might underline.

 

 

Is it worth it to live like that? Is it to me as a believer or each of you as non-believers?

 

I get the sense that you're doing your damnedest to redirect me.

 

I'll consider this.

 

Phanta

[Guest end3]

I was basing my interpretation of that theme purely from your words, End: "The husband (Christ),sinless and the woman, the bride(humanity), being brought to a place without sin." This comparison glorifies one sex and degrades the other. It is offensive.

 

Eve coming from Adam, rather than the reverse concept, which is closer to nature, is men taking away the only thing that is purely a female act: yielding from their bodies new life. They were so unable to cope with that uniqueness, they took it away as well. It makes no sense for the male to be made first unless this was written by men with unaddressed personal issues.

 

If you see it in your own life, consider taking a closer look at that. How is it effecting your view of all women? How do you speak of them casually? What aspects of Christian theology you are drawn to, and do they reflect equality and mutual respect, or a system meant to underhandedly put women down via power and control by males over spiritual concepts?

 

Phanta

 

Who cares about the interpretation.....again, you are using it as a tool, even in this post, as a means of separation. That is the point I am trying to make. We use transient truths like "the woman came first and the man took that away too" to essentially separate ourselves into some security. That is the wrong that you might underline.

 

 

Is it worth it to live like that? Is it to me as a believer or each of you as non-believers?

 

I get the sense that you're doing your damnedest to redirect me.

 

I'll consider this.

 

Phanta

 

Yes, it is frustrating for me to see you agree and accept this mentality as a just one. I think I have demonstrated that there lies a higher truth than accepting transient ones for the sake of something.

[Guest end3]

Right out of the same chapter your are quoting:

 

Num 5:6 Speak unto the children of Israel, When a man or woman shall commit any sin that men commit, to do a trespass against the LORD, and that person be guilty;

 

 

Num 5:7 Then they shall confess their sin which they have done: and he shall recompense his trespass with the principal thereof, and add unto it the fifth [part] thereof, and give [it] unto [him] against whom he hath trespassed.

[Astreja]

He is not evil because we do not understand why He did the things He did.

What's so f%cking hard about understanding the concept "A being that would drown all life on a planet is evil," Justyna? We don't need to understand the most intimate inner workings of your imaginary friend's mind; we merely need to understand that mass killing is evil. It worries Me considerably that we seem to understand that concept better than you do, as you're the one making excuses for the hissy-fit god of the Bible.

 

Remember He is Holy...

Unsupported assertion and existential fallacy: No evidence for your god and no evidence that it is 'holy,' whatever that's actually supposed to mean other than "Don't you *dare* question my god's morality or motives!"

 

Vixen and Vigile, dont you two have something more productive to do? Im not being mean, I am just asking since your comments are mean, rude and without any thought.

Take a long, hard look in the mirror, Justyna. You are a hypocrite.

 

Yeah God wiped away everyone except a few in the flood... If they just listened to Him in the first place, then they would not have found themselves in those circumstances.

And how, exactly, are kittens supposed to 'listen' to your imaginary friend? We're not just talking about humans here.

 

Why do you guys have such a hard time submiting to Him? Hes trying to save your lives...but no you want nothing to do with it. YOu want it your way, not His. We did not create ourselves. He created us....we need to accept this fact first. None of us picked to be here. He picked us.

Absolute bullshit. Your god is almost certainly fiction, Justyna. The god that you think you know is most probably the creation of your own imagination.

 

I see nothing of value in what you are trying to give us. You are making excuses for a cosmic bully, overlooking the utter depravity of the Christian message because it makes promises of an eternal life that you shall never have.

 

It simply doesn't matter what "the Bible says," because the Bible is primarily a collection of myths, many of which were plagiarized from earlier myths. People do not come back from the dead except in works of fiction. If there ever was a Jesus, he's been dead for nearly 2,000 years and only lives in your imagination.

 

And your faith will simply die with your physical body, Justyna. If you don't believe Me, try to hold on to your awareness and your beliefs tonight when you are in the dreamless phase of sleep. I predict that you won't be able to do it. And if you can't hang onto your alleged "immortal soul" for a few minutes of sleep, what makes you think you can keep it Forever and Ever, Amen?

 

You can't.

 

Your awareness of 'Justyna' and all she believes is 100% dependent upon the physical brain, which is in turn dependent upon the cardiovascular and other body systems. There is no credible evidence for a 'soul' that can outlive the body, so when your body eventually dies, Justyna and her fervent belief in Jesus go with it, never to return.

 

So you will be a genuine Ex-Christian someday... Unfortunately, in the very same sense as John Cleese's famous Ex-Parrot.

 

Well I think God's enemies are those that do not follow Him and do not accept His Son. Thats what the Bible says...so I am going to stick with that.

Ah, so I am indeed the enemy of your alleged god. Good to know, in the unlikely event that it actually exists.

 

Ive been rude?

Yup. Repeatedly, and you have yet to proffer a sincere apology for any of the insults you've flung at us. Are you really that obtuse that you can't see the offensiveness of your own behaviour here?

 

Please I think I have handled being called every name in the book pretty well here. You are not in my position because there is only one of me...

Logical fallacy: Argumentum ad unpopulum.

 

I never called anyone names...

 

Sure about that, Justyna? Reeeeeeally sure about that?

 

Post #586314: "You are actually living a lie right now by not following Him...

*Called us liars

 

Post #586906: "You want to understand everything, know everything as though we as humans are worthy to know such mysteries and great things... while all along your hearts are hard and your spirits are not open."

*Called us hardhearted and also implied that we are arrogant for seeking knowledge.

 

Post #586934: "...You all chose to follow satan and after this world and all it has to offer with its theories and concepts and lies. You all chose that, no one forced you. Time to be accountable for your actions, and stop saying that you could not believe anymore.

* Slandered our character and motives and implied that we lack accountability.

 

Post #587377: "The only reason I have the right to say what I say is because I can test it against the Holy Scriptures. If a person on here says to me that God left them and that is why they themselves stopped believing I can say to them that they are either liars, misguided, or confused..."

* Blatantly called us 'liars, misguided, or confused,' then rationalized your wilful bad behaviour by claiming authority from a book of mythology.

 

Post #587380: "Its not so much that people here are liars, but rather deceived by darkness and the evil one."

* More slander thinly disguised as woo-woo.

 

Post #587901: "Dont be quitters. Quitters are losers..quitters couldnt take it anymore when the going got tough..."

* Called us quitters and losers, and also implied that we just became Ex-Christians because Christianity was somehow too hard for us.

 

Post #589005: "I am afraid of Atheists in the sense that they can kill, do evil, and they dont see anything wrong with it. This is not all Atheists, but some of course. There is no accountability because they think there is no God, so they think they can do all sorts of bad things. We Christians (although not perfect) we try to not sin because it keeps us from Jesus, and we will also have to give an account for eveyrthing we do. If you believe that there is no God, and that you can do what you want....then you will, and not care."

* Blanket argumentum ad hominem against nonbelievers, implying that Christians are as a whole more moral.

 

Post #589019: "I am making a point that most crimes are not commited by Chrisitans....but by atheists. Thats just a fact.

* More slander against nonbelievers.

 

Post #589110: "If you do not like what I have to say in this thread, then by all means, dont come to it and post.

* Hypocrisy: "I can criticize you for being Ex-Christians, but you aren't allowed to criticize me because I started the thread... Neener neener neener."

 

But this, Justyna, is the saddest thing that you've said in the whole thread:

 

And my arrogance is just confidence in Jesus..the only confidence I do have.

Get thee to a qualified counsellor and learn how to build real-world confidence, as a safeguard against the day that your faith crashes and burns.

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

Arguing over religion is fruitless. Who cares who is right? It doesn't matter.

[Crazy Donna]

Those passsages seem consistant with the symbolism and general message throughout the Bible...bitter water, the woman, the husband, etc. The husband (Christ),sinless and the woman, the bride(humanity), being brought to a place without sin. When you read it in this context, it seems much less witchcrafty.

You might be compassionate and moral enough to be disgusted by the contents of the passage to the point where you interpret it as symbolic, which is a good thing and evidence that deep down, you're a kind, moral person. But it is clearly an instructional passage. And it is very, very witchcrafty.

 

But I'm glad you find that kind of violence distasteful enough to rationalise it as symbolism.