Im A Christian Again

[Phanta]

If you had said, "Yes, it's a pagan law. God screwed up, or the truth is that Christianity has roots in Judaism, which in turn has its roots in paganism, then that's the truth." I'd be much happier than you're trying to cover it up.

 

I would be, too. I'm seeing a lot of evidence for view #2, btw, as this discussion develops and I read more. I also want to point out that #2 doesn't seem to be what the Bible states is happening, but the evidence that is what is happening is pretty compelling to me. It reminds me of one of my favorite quotes, by Emerson, "What you do speaks so loud that I cannot hear what you say." Yes, Bible, that was directed at you.

 

or option two, that the outcome of revelation from the Bible yeilds the message of Christ.....Love and Grace for our neighbor that is glad Justna is happy with her belief.

Or it is a sexist religion based on pagan traditions. That answer is still much simpler.

 

Besides, the "sexist" part was your metaphorical interpretation of the pagan law, not the law itself. The fact they tested the women had nothing to do with Phanta's first post. She only pointed out the pagan part of the law. You made it to a question about sexism when you presented it as a metaphor for the sinful woman and the righteous man.

 

This is also accurate. I found the meaning you brought to the table sexist, End.

 

However, now that I've read the directives from "The Lord" that precede and follow the section I quoted, I see that the author is very specific about when a test or rule or directive applies to both sexes, and when it applies to only one. I don't see men taking the adultery test, though they surely commit adultery as well. Weird. I have more reading to do and information to gather on this strange omission before I land in judgement (which looks, on first pass-over, like more male contempt for women, a.k.a. misogyny). But I haven't landed in judgement yet, hence, I came to ask for your thoughts on the omission or, if you prefer, the singling out of women, End.

 

So, now we have two issues:

 

Pagany witchcraft

Special tests for women only in regards to a gender-neutral behavior (i.e. a trespasses of adultery are not a woman-only "thing")

 

Phanta

[Phanta]

The "truth" of the matter is in the bigger picture, which to me is greater. That you are using an interpretation to hurt another. Par for the course.

 

Your interpretation hurt me. It is offensive and hurtful to demean a gender as you did and have done in the past with that comparison. I think it is likely about your own personal problems, just as it was for many of the men who built the tradition upon which your faith stands.

 

Phanta

[Guest end3]

The "truth" of the matter is in the bigger picture, which to me is greater. That you are using an interpretation to hurt another. Par for the course.

 

Your interpretation hurt me. It is offensive and hurtful to demean a gender as you did and have done in the past with that comparison. I think it is likely about your own personal problems, just as it was for many of the men who built the tradition upon which your faith stands.

 

Phanta

 

yeah, how do you think Justna felt.....oh, never mind, you didn't.

[Phanta]

The part where I said the verses are not the simple edicts of God, but rather some ideas by some deists built on previous rituals from the Pagan people they emerged from. The authors (or, more likely, redactors) had some ideas about who God might be and what God might want.

 

Is it really about God? I don't know. It certainly wasn't relayed to them in quote form by God. And it's surely not consistent with modern, anti-pagan, anti-witchraft sentiment from many Christian sects.

 

The end of my statement is what you missed:

'"God" didn't say these things. It's merely what humans were trying on for a time, falsely determined as directive or instruction from God".' Pagan humans, moving, slowly, in another direction.

 

Phanta

 

 

You are free to choose Phanta....just trying to point out the result(s) of your choice on the person of interest here. Seems pretty cut and dry to me, but we each have our paths to walk.

 

Yeah, I can own that I wasn't supportive. She did a particular behavior that rankled me, justly, though the details of my reaction to it wasn't hugely productive. Thanks for pointing that out. I'll continue to work on more helpful responses to bad behavior.

 

Meanwhile, I've moved on to two new topics, the first being evidence despite what the Bible says, it demonstrates a pretty mixed bag of ideas, including Pagan ones, that, to me, is evidence of human development. The second is if the Bible is inherently sexist, which makes sense if a lot of it's contributors held women in contempt and used their power as religious leaders as backlash. You make a good argument that it is sexist, but I'm going to read in order to decide for myself.

 

Phanta

[Phanta]

The "truth" of the matter is in the bigger picture, which to me is greater. That you are using an interpretation to hurt another. Par for the course.

 

Your interpretation hurt me. It is offensive and hurtful to demean a gender as you did and have done in the past with that comparison. I think it is likely about your own personal problems, just as it was for many of the men who built the tradition upon which your faith stands.

 

Phanta

 

yeah, how do you think Justna felt.....oh, never mind, you didn't.

 

I own that bad behavior. You worship yours.

[Guest end3]

The part where I said the verses are not the simple edicts of God, but rather some ideas by some deists built on previous rituals from the Pagan people they emerged from. The authors (or, more likely, redactors) had some ideas about who God might be and what God might want.

 

Is it really about God? I don't know. It certainly wasn't relayed to them in quote form by God. And it's surely not consistent with modern, anti-pagan, anti-witchraft sentiment from many Christian sects.

 

The end of my statement is what you missed:

'"God" didn't say these things. It's merely what humans were trying on for a time, falsely determined as directive or instruction from God".' Pagan humans, moving, slowly, in another direction.

 

Phanta

 

 

You are free to choose Phanta....just trying to point out the result(s) of your choice on the person of interest here. Seems pretty cut and dry to me, but we each have our paths to walk.

 

Yeah, I can own that I wasn't supportive. She did a particular behavior that rankled me, justly, though the details of my reaction to it wasn't hugely productive. Thanks for pointing that out. I'll continue to work on more helpful responses to bad behavior.

 

Meanwhile, I've moved on to two new topics, the first being evidence despite what the Bible says, it demonstrates a pretty mixed bag of ideas, including Pagan ones, that, to me, is evidence of human development. The second is if the Bible is inherently sexist, which makes sense if a lot of it's contributors held women in contempt and used their power as religious leaders as backlash. You make a good argument that it is sexist, but I'm going to read in order to decide for myself.

 

Phanta

 

Good, and that is the test...supportive. Please hold on to that.

[Guest end3]

The "truth" of the matter is in the bigger picture, which to me is greater. That you are using an interpretation to hurt another. Par for the course.

 

Your interpretation hurt me. It is offensive and hurtful to demean a gender as you did and have done in the past with that comparison. I think it is likely about your own personal problems, just as it was for many of the men who built the tradition upon which your faith stands.

 

Phanta

 

yeah, how do you think Justna felt.....oh, never mind, you didn't.

 

I own that bad behavior. You worship yours.

 

I can see that I use it incorrectly.

[Phanta]

The "truth" of the matter is in the bigger picture, which to me is greater. That you are using an interpretation to hurt another. Par for the course.

 

Your interpretation hurt me. It is offensive and hurtful to demean a gender as you did and have done in the past with that comparison. I think it is likely about your own personal problems, just as it was for many of the men who built the tradition upon which your faith stands.

 

Phanta

 

yeah, how do you think Justna felt.....oh, never mind, you didn't.

 

I own that bad behavior. You worship yours.

 

I can see that I use it incorrectly.

 

I want to acknowledge this, because I know it's hard to admit one's wrongs.

 

Phanta

[Ouroboros]

Maybe she thought y'all would be understanding having identified with the struggle....she was wrong that y'all could see any better than before.

I don't know if she really saw that part from Phanta, so I can't say if it hurt her or not. She needs to express it.

 

I don't think it hurts me too much Hans. I take it as more as an inherent duty to stand up to this kind of stuff....makes me feel good.

Absolutely. I have no problem with that. The only problem I have is if it becomes an issue of what you think we're allowed to talk about here or not. It's not like the group here gathered here because they love Christianity so much and want to build a bridge to some kumbaya community.

[Guest end3]

First and foremost FA, good to hear from you.

 

To be forced to marry any man who rapes me before I'm properly betrothed?

 

I assume you are talking of Mary? I don't have an answer to whether she was raped.

 

To obey my husband? Regardless of his actions?

 

I think you are applying the ideal to a natural husband.

 

To learn in submission, because my thoughts and ideas cannot possibly benefit a man?

Two things here. First, when we really want to learn, don't we submit in reality? Secondly, as an instructive by God, it could be a thing where God tells us for our benefit?

 

To be saved by having children, then stay home and tend to them whether or not I, as an individual, am at all interested in or suited to raising children?

 

Sorry, you are going to cite a verse. I barely remember some of it.

 

I'm sorry...but few things rub me the wrong way like people who first claim that when the Bible says something sexist it doesn't really mean it...and then turn around and tell me that the Bible commands a "different" role for me because I'm female. Either really repudiate the sexism or own up to it.

 

Again, two things here. First, as I had pointed out, there is the possiblility that as an entity in an organization, that we possess a separate, unique function....seems rather unarguable, inarguable, whatever. Secondly, it would also seem that the ultimate goal of two being one would offer equality....yet, in a situation of separation, the roles probably don't offer equality due to the separation.

 

Hmmm...and I do have trouble understanding your posts sometimes, so if I'm hitting you with something totally left field of what you meant, I apologize.

 

Nah, you didn't miss the mark much about me...lol, I am uniquely whacked. Good to see you FA.

[Ouroboros]

yeah, how do you think Justna felt.....oh, never mind, you didn't.

You do know that I didn't start giving her a hard time until she started saying that atheists are evil and murderers. Until that point, I didn't say much. But when she said that, it hurt me first. So how about it? Who threw the first punch?

 

And on another note, the only "hard" things I've given her is to demand from her to give support for her claim of fact. A claim of fact, according to any model or reasoning, requires a support to back it up. She hasn't done it. So is she hurt because she can't back it up? Or is she hurt because someone is asking her to give support to her claim?

 

Besides, why is it so hurtful to hear a quote from the Bible that shows that it has pagan roots? It's obvious when you read it. If God's word is God's word, how can it be so hurtful to Christians? Perhaps Christians shouldn't read it then... oh, wait, they don't...

[Guest end3]

Maybe she thought y'all would be understanding having identified with the struggle....she was wrong that y'all could see any better than before.

I don't know if she really saw that part from Phanta, so I can't say if it hurt her or not. She needs to express it.

 

I don't think it hurts me too much Hans. I take it as more as an inherent duty to stand up to this kind of stuff....makes me feel good.

Absolutely. I have no problem with that. The only problem I have is if it becomes an issue of what you think we're allowed to talk about here or not. It's not like the group here gathered here because they love Christianity so much and want to build a bridge to some kumbaya community.

 

Dave could make me a mod and then it would be an issue.

[Dibllsmek]

It seems that some most of the Christians on this sight can't fathom the idea that God doesn't exists. They seem to think we are just shunning him.

 

I guess its akin to thinking that Santa Clause is real to a 2 year old.

[Guest end3]

You do know that I didn't start giving her a hard time until she started saying that atheists are evil and murderers. Until that point, I didn't say much. But when she said that, it hurt me first. So how about it? Who threw the first punch?

You sound like a child...."well she started it".

[Guest end3]

It seems that some most of the Christians on this sight can't fathom the idea that God doesn't exists. They seem to think we are just shunning him.

 

I guess its akin to thinking that Santa Clause is real to a 2 year old.

 

Give me proof child that He doesn't exist.

[Dibllsmek]

It seems that some most of the Christians on this sight can't fathom the idea that God doesn't exists. They seem to think we are just shunning him.

 

I guess its akin to thinking that Santa Clause is real to a 2 year old.

 

Give me proof child that He doesn't exist.

Give me proof that he does, the bible, THEORIES, and Schizophrenia don't count.

[Ouroboros]

You do know that I didn't start giving her a hard time until she started saying that atheists are evil and murderers. Until that point, I didn't say much. But when she said that, it hurt me first. So how about it? Who threw the first punch?

You sound like a child...."well she started it".

I know. Sorry about that.

 

So how do you think I feel then? When she says I'm a evil murdering rapist?

 

How about we started to call you that? How would you feel?

 

It's just Christian love, isn't it? To call everyone else evil murdering rapists. It's all good.

 

Actually, since it's a Christian thing to do, why are you so hurt by it? I'm just being a true Christian here by calling you and her evil murdering rapists. No? Ah. Perhaps it's not so nice to call people that. Well, then she better STOP then!

[Guest end3]

It seems that some most of the Christians on this sight can't fathom the idea that God doesn't exists. They seem to think we are just shunning him.

 

I guess its akin to thinking that Santa Clause is real to a 2 year old.

 

Give me proof child that He doesn't exist.

Give me proof that he does, the bible, THEORIES, and Schizophrenia don't count.

 

lol, at least you are smart enough to equate it to a theory.....faith.

[Guest I Love Dog]

It seems that some most of the Christians on this sight can't fathom the idea that God doesn't exists. They seem to think we are just shunning him.

 

I guess its akin to thinking that Santa Clause is real to a 2 year old.

 

Give me proof child that He doesn't exist.

 

Negatives are notoriously difficult to prove(read impossible).

 

What we do have is records of how Santa Claus came to be, and he was, after all based on a real character, unlike gods, who are ALWAYS imaginary, however hard and long you believe in them, they never become real.

 

I think once you seriously start researching "god"(the Christian/Islamic/Jewish one) and gods, the evidence is really quite substantial that ALL gods were invented and imagined by humans.

 

For instance:

 

According to The Oxford Companion To World Mythology (David Leeming, Oxford University Press, 2005, page 118), "It seems almost certain that the God of the Jews evolved gradually from the Canaanite El, who was in all likelihood the 'God of Abraham'...If El was the high god of Abraham - Elohim, the prototype of Yahveh - Asherah was his wife, and there are archeological indications that she was perceived as such before she was in effect 'divorced' in the context of emerging Judaism of the seventh century B.C.E."

 

Yahweh/Jehovah was just one of many gods, almost definitely the Canaanite storm god, one of the 70 sons of El/Eli and was "assigned" to the Canaanites/Israelites. Of course, the Canaanites/Hebrews later dropped worship of all of their other gods and kept only Yahweh, believing that he had led them out of Egypt.

 

Once you start to read and understand the recorded history of the characters that came to be adopted for the Hebrew writings then the existence of "god" begins to dissolve very quickly before your eyes and you can see the three religions that believe in this imagined deity certainly need much blind faith to support their belief.

 

There have been 30,000 gods in the past 6-7000 years, all of them invented and imagined by humans, there is no evidence that any one of them is even remotely "real".

 

It's certainly interesting and fun finding out!

[Guest end3]

You do know that I didn't start giving her a hard time until she started saying that atheists are evil and murderers. Until that point, I didn't say much. But when she said that, it hurt me first. So how about it? Who threw the first punch?

You sound like a child...."well she started it".

I know. Sorry about that.

 

So how do you think I feel then? When she says I'm a evil murdering rapist?

 

How about we started to call you that? How would you feel?

 

here's the point, and I am trying to calm myself...straight across. As I was trying to express to Phanta....that the test on both sides of the fence really should be, what is the outcome for the other person. If it is negative, then "obey" and choose something different, regardless. Would this be a bad thing even if you "knew better"?

 

I don't think it really difficult for us to choose the best thing for the other person....I may be wrong.

 

Certainly, even though I know what would be in the best interest of the other person, the action I choose is not in agreement.....and I sin. Simple enough....that's what I think sin is. Again, I was just trying to illustrate this in this dialogue.

[bdp]

 

 

yeah, how do you think Justna felt.....oh, never mind, you didn't.

 

Fuck you, asshole.

[Guest end3]

 

 

yeah, how do you think Justna felt.....oh, never mind, you didn't.

 

Fuck you, asshole.

hey Kyle...good to see you too.

[bdp]

 

 

yeah, how do you think Justna felt.....oh, never mind, you didn't.

 

Fuck you, asshole.

hey Kyle...good to see you too.

 

Blow me.

[Antlerman]

 

 

yeah, how do you think Justna felt.....oh, never mind, you didn't.

 

Fuck you, asshole.

hey Kyle...good to see you too.

 

Blow me.

I can just feel the love.

[Dibllsmek]

 

 

yeah, how do you think Justna felt.....oh, never mind, you didn't.

 

Fuck you, asshole.

hey Kyle...good to see you too.

 

Blow me.

I second that notion.