Pretend Judgement Day Were to Actually Happen...

[Antlerman]

We have shown you Daniel, but you refuse to see it.  Amanda is one, you disagree with Universalists.  You disagree with Churches of God although now there are two different sects.  One sect celebrates holy days, sabbaths and doesn't eat unlawful meats, the other does.  You disagree with Jehovah Witnesses, Catholics, Messianic Judaism, Seventh Day Adventists, 7th Day BAPTISTS, etc. 

Daniel,

 

You asked who disagrees with you, where are they? SerenityNow put together a nice list to start with. That constitutes several multiplied millions of believers, off the top of my head. If you want to argue theology with them, you can jump onto any one of their sites and have at it. The point is: we know what they believe, and it is not what you believe.

 

If a Christian, clearly knowing the Lord, bring up an issue where I am in error... by all means I will recant.

 

****STOP THE PRESSES!!! DING DING DING!! ****

 

I noticed in your above comment something I have been suspecting all along. You wipe away with a single hand stroke anything an ex-christian/non-christian/secular scholar says that doesn't agree with you. Since they don't use belief in God as the basis for gaining knowledge, what they are saying is discredited at the outset because Satan is at work in them and they can't possibly understand this without using the Holy Spirit! Is that right Daniel? Please share with us all. Are we incapable of discerning words in the Bible unless we first believe like you? That's it isn't it???

 

So far this exercise of using the Scientific Method to approach Jesus, as you told me I should do, is failing to help your position at all. This isn't very scientific Daniel. Should I abandon this approach to knowledge in favor of another one instead now?

 

edited for spelling

[RankStranger]

Bring them to the boards then, so we can discuss it. What interpretation have I made, that they would disagree with? And how do you know... did you tell them the issue and then directly ask them about it? I'm not different. I just believe what God says.

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Daniel- I know it's hard to argue without specifics, but it DOES seem like you're dodging the question. I'm sure you know the basics of assorted fundamentalist christian doctrines as well as I do. Regardless, refer to Crazy-Tiger's post that Amanda quoted- he's made up a better list than I would have. I don't know how you could possibly need more information than this to address the point- it's a very simple question.

 

I just believe what God says.

This is what I'm trying to understand, buddy.

 

 

I know you've shown us why you believe all along with respect to scripture, and believe it or not, I DO admire your dedication in trying to understand the true intent of these scriptures. But... there are millions of other people who are just as dedicated as you are, and more. People dedicate their LIVES to the same pursuit, study theology, get doctorates and post-doctorates, pray, strive, discuss, and STILL come up with completely different takes on scripture than yours. What makes YOU so special? Or if you find it easier to answer, what makes YOUR INTERPRETATION so special?

 

Daniel- fundamentalist is a dirty word around here for a variety of reasons (some of which I'm addressing with my question to you). Regardless, you seem to believe in a literal interpretation of the bible- that makes you a fundamentalist. I'm asking you questions based on other fundamentalist doctrines because it's something that I think we'd both be familiar with- it might not be very productive to ask you why or not Catholic or Jehovas witness.

 

It's interestings to see that the schizm between the Roman Catholic and the Greek Orthodox church basically came from a disagreement of who should have the last word of deciding the interpretation of the Bible. And that was 1000 years ago.

 

And then we have the English Church, or the Russian Orthodox, or the Coptic, or the Armernian Church... Everyone with their own little spin on the Bible, and all of the wrong, according to Daniel, since God picked him to carry the "true" gospel to our world today. God wanted everyone, even the Pope, to hear what the true message was, so he selected Daniel to speak to the world, and tell them that they have read the Bible wrong all the time!

 

*sigh*

 

If there is a god, he must be sitting up there and thinking, "no, no, not again, not another freaking nutcase that thinks he got the truth. Yet more wars and struggle to follow... can they never stop?"

 

I think the estimate is that since the beginning of Christiantiy 2000 years ago, the denominations now and all the different kinds since then, all adds up to a whopping 30,000 versions.

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30,000 eh? Maybe Jebus likes variety.

 

Antlerman- maybe neither option fits him? heh.

[daniel_1012]

Serenity,

 

I don't care what denomination a person is from. I disagree with anyone who does not preach Christ. I wouldn't be so niave to say, I disagree with 7th day adventists. I know how people just are parts of groups, or denominations. I don't care if they worship on Wednesday, or Thursday, or Friday... It doesn't matter. I disagree with anyone that does not preach Christ crucified.

[daniel_1012]

unchained,

 

I believe that if you seek to know God, then God, in His sovreignty, will bring you about the way of Christ to give you that option. Men all over the world, from the middle of the forests to the middle of the city. Anyone that desires to know God, truly in their heart, I believe God knows that man's heart and will offer that man Christ. I believe that if a man does not recieve Christ, that man does not truly desire to know God.

 

Simply, seek God, and you will find Him. Christ has been crucified for sin, and all who call upon the name of the Lord will be SAVED. I'm sure you've heard that all before, but I thought it worth repeating.

[daniel_1012]

Antlerman,

 

I don't believe you will ever know why you are here, until it's to late, unless you put your faith in Christ. You must believe in sin, you must believe in judgment... somewhere in your heart you must know those things are true. But, if I simply go about my way and tell you, over and over, that God made a way in Christ to pardon you from the foundation of the world, then I believe you will be saved if you choose to be.

 

There are a lot of mysteries in this world, and about faith... about God, about creation. A lot of who what when where and why... but simply have faith in God, that Christ died for you, and in time the little things will fall into place, but the important part is that you got on the train before it left the station. Knowing what kinda meal they will serve, what kinda seat you'll be in, why the train is made of iron and not titanium, why the conductor chose to wear blue and not red. All these things, you'll have time to figure out later... but you better get on the train, or you'll be left behind.

[Cerise]

  Anyone that desires to know God, truly in their heart, I believe God knows that man's heart and will offer that man Christ.  I believe that if a man does not recieve Christ, that man does not truly desire to know God.

 

So you don't believe that any of us here ever truly desired to know God and didn't recieve an answer?

 

You just flat out refuse to believe this?

 

Then how can we have a conversation together? You don't trust us, and we certainly can't trust you.

[RankStranger]

Yeah, that's great Daniel- thanx.

 

Are you going to answer my question? Or Antlerman's?

[daniel_1012]

Yeah, that's great Daniel- thanx.

 

Are you going to answer my question?  Or Antlerman's?

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Not today, perhaps another. I think it better to leave you to go directly to God for an answer today, without a median such as myself. I'm sure if you seek Him, truly, you will find Him. I believe that.

[RankStranger]

It's good to see that you're honest about simply refusing to answer, but why should I or anybody else take you seriously now?

[Cerise]

Not today, perhaps another.  I think it better to leave you to go directly to God for an answer today, without a median such as myself.  I'm sure if you seek Him, truly, you will find Him.  I believe that.

 

 

And if you don't find him, Antlerman, well then you just weren't trying hard enough. See it isn't god's fault if he doesn't answer, it's your fault for not "truly seeking" an answer. It's never God's fault.

 

Just like, if Allah doesn't prove Himself to daniel, it's not because Allah isn't there, or is really Satan in disguise, it's because daniel didn't really want to find Allah and the truth of Islam.

[RankStranger]

Daniel, I BELIEVE that if ANYTHING is worth believing, then it should stand up to questioning. If a belief can't be rationally defended, then what good is it? Which is better? To try to know the TRUTH regardless of where it takes you, or to arbitrarily DECIDE what is true and refuse to thoroghly question it?

 

Even if you won't answer my question or Antlerman's, I'd like you to ask YOURSELF those two SIMPLE questions, and find yourself an honest answer.

[Antlerman]

Yeah, that's great Daniel- thanx.

 

Are you going to answer my question?  Or Antlerman's?

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Not today, perhaps another. I think it better to leave you to go directly to God for an answer today, without a median such as myself. I'm sure if you seek Him, truly, you will find Him. I believe that.

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Then you admit failure to provide anything of substance to answer me. I therefore can't buy your product today. Going to God directly is not an option for anyone Daniel. You've read the bible. That's why we have the bible, isn't it?

 

Respectfully, you're coping out. I'm too intelligent to think otherwise. Thanks for your effort.

[crazy-tiger]

Serenity,

 

I don't care what denomination a person is from.  I disagree with anyone who does not preach Christ.  I wouldn't be so niave to say, I disagree with 7th day adventists.  I know how people just are parts of groups, or denominations.  I don't care if they worship on Wednesday, or Thursday, or Friday... It doesn't matter.  I disagree with anyone that does not preach Christ crucified.

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Translation: I refuse to accept that you can possibly be right or that I could possibly be wrong.

[RankStranger]

There are a lot of mysteries in this world, and about faith... about God, about creation.  A lot of who what when where and why... but simply have faith in God, that Christ died for you, and in time the little things will fall into place, but the important part is that you got on the train before it left the station.   Knowing what kinda meal they will serve, what kinda seat you'll be in, why the train is made of iron and not titanium, why the conductor chose to wear blue and not red.  All these things, you'll have time to figure out later... but you better get on the train, or you'll be left behind.

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Dude, there are at least 30,000 different trains... You seem pretty damn sure which one is the right one- yet you're refusing to point it out!

[euphgeek]

I repeat, I don't base what I believe off of what other people believe.  I base what I believe off of what the Bible says.

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So does this guy. He has provided biblical proof that there is no eternal hell. Care to comment on his site? I dare you to find any place where he contradicts the Bible.

[crazy-tiger]

There are a lot of mysteries in this world, and about faith... about God, about creation.  A lot of who what when where and why... but simply have faith in God, that Christ died for you, and in time the little things will fall into place, but the important part is that you got on the train before it left the station.   Knowing what kinda meal they will serve, what kinda seat you'll be in, why the train is made of iron and not titanium, why the conductor chose to wear blue and not red.  All these things, you'll have time to figure out later... but you better get on the train, or you'll be left behind.

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Dude, there are at least 30,000 different trains... You seem pretty damn sure which one is the right one- yet you're refusing to point it out!

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No... not different trains... different routes.

 

The problem is, only one route leads to salvation and Daniel hasn't checked to see if he's on the right one.

[Amanda]

I BELIEVE that if ANYTHING is worth believing, then it should stand up to questioning.  If a belief can't be rationally defended, then what good is it?  Which is better?  To try to know the TRUTH regardless of where it takes you, or to arbitrarily DECIDE what is true and refuse to thoroghly question it?

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Hello Unchained Hillbilly!

Actually this has helped strengthen my faith! Sure, my foundations have been shaken a bit ... but ultimately it became more solid. Truth is truth, from where ever it comes, and it never contradicts itself. I think Jesus participated in forums just like this one, and I think he would of been quite interactive instead of a reactive wall of defensiveness to any other ideology. IMHO, he had to of listened and learned, because it seems, to me, he has reconciled it ALL into his teachings.

[Guest Guest_serenitynow_*]

Serenity,

 

I don't care what denomination a person is from.  I disagree with anyone who does not preach Christ.  I wouldn't be so niave to say, I disagree with 7th day adventists.  I know how people just are parts of groups, or denominations.  I don't care if they worship on Wednesday, or Thursday, or Friday... It doesn't matter.  I disagree with anyone that does not preach Christ crucified.

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Amanda preaches Christ and she preaches Christ crucified yet you do not agree with her. The differences in many denominations Daniel are not little but major. Church of Christ says if you're not baptized you aren't saved. My charismatic Aunt says my grandparents aren't saved despite their fruits because they do not speak in tongues. Church of God does not believe in the trinity, Monotheistic Messianics do not believe in the trinity either and say if you worship Jesus, you will go to hell, because it is god only who is worshipped, jesus is not a god. I can't think of a single Christian sect that DOES NOT teach that jesus died on the cross for sin, can you? Messianic Jews also do not celebrate pagan days such as Christmas and Easter and say that to do so is a slap in the face of the almighty and IF you do those things, you are not a "true" believer. So see Daniel, you are very sheltered if you believe the differences are not based on salvation because they are.

[Dhampir]

Believe it or not, that is pretty common practice among all things that we have come to know. A person first believes something, before he seeks understanding. He would not seek to understand, unless he first has belief. Just think you should make a scientific hypothesis on Christ, that's all.  That's what evolutionists have done... and their still doing it. I'm just saying to put your faith in God, instead.

First off, you're right. Partially. This is the process by which our ancient ancestors came to believe that droughts were god's wrath on unbelievers. The scientific method, which existed long before it was officially established, does not work this way. The initial process is that one takes what one observes about an event, develops a tenative hypothesis as to how that event might have taken place, then performs tests of varying sorts to confirm the hypothesis. Sure the tests sometimes led to the belief that sacrificing a virgin brought the rain, but no one honestly believes that now with our actual understanding.

 

We have made such hypotheses, regarding Christ, and they none of them warrant any further testing than most of us have done. You say believe and proof will come, some scientists have believed their hypotheses would be proved till they were blue in the face, and have been wrong.

[I Broke Free]

You must believe in sin, you must believe in judgment... somewhere in your heart you must know those things are true.

 

 

That statement is very telling. I hear it all the time. Christians must assume that we all “know” so many things. It is imperative that Christians believe this or they would be forced to conclude that their god is horrible beast.

 

Sorry to disappoint you Daniel, but I do NOT KNOW these things you speak of are true.

 

So where does that leave you?

 

1) I’m lying and I really do know that your god is real.

2) God is an unethical monster.

 

How sad that you would adopt a faith that puts you in such an uncomfortable positon.

 

IBF

[RankStranger]

Hello Unchained Hillbilly!

Actually this has helped strengthen my faith! Sure, my foundations have been shaken a bit  ... but ultimately it became more solid. Truth is truth, from where ever it comes, and it never contradicts itself. I think Jesus participated in forums just like this one, and I think he would of been quite interactive instead of a reactive wall of defensiveness to any other ideology. IMHO, he had to of listened and learned, because it seems, to me, he has reconciled it ALL into his teachings.

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Howdy amanda. I'd agree with you to a point- the process of questioning and reconsidering when neccesary has also strengthened my faith in a sense, though it might be more precise to say that it has 'defined' my faith more than 'strengthened' it.

 

I think faith is a cognitive distortion- even a character flaw- that we all depend on to some degree. I like to think that I have the minimum amount of faith that my little mind will allow. None of us is omniscient, so we have to base our beliefs on certain assumptions- I'd call these assumptions 'faith'. Some people primarily base their beliefs on authority, some on upbringing, some on concensus, some on certain collections of cryptic ancient texts, some on our all-too-human attempts at logic. I have my own preferences, but I'll grudgingly admit to a certain amount of 'faith'.

 

I've always admired christians who are willing to consider non-biblical sources when constructing their own belief system. It's a HUGE and baseless assumption to believe that your own particular version of a collection of ancient texts is the true, complete, and only source of spiritual guidance. Of course, once I realized that... it was all downhill from there to atheism. See ya' in hell!

[All Gods Fail]

Yeah, that's great Daniel- thanx.

 

Are you going to answer my question?  Or Antlerman's?

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Not today, perhaps another. I think it better to leave you to go directly to God for an answer today, without a median such as myself. I'm sure if you seek Him, truly, you will find Him. I believe that.

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HOLY CRAP! Who would have ever thought Dan-dan refused to answer a question?

 

 

 

BTW - I did seek him. I did find him. JUST LIKE YOU.

 

Only I finally figured out he doesn't exist. You're still deluded. You still think talking snakes tricked the first humans (that god made out of mud and ribs) into eating magic fruit.

 

God help you. You are a fool.

[MQTA]

 

WinAce left some good stuff behind

[Antlerman]

Yeah, that's great Daniel- thanx.

 

Are you going to answer my question?  Or Antlerman's?

106200[/snapback]

 

Not today, perhaps another. I think it better to leave you to go directly to God for an answer today, without a median such as myself. I'm sure if you seek Him, truly, you will find Him. I believe that.

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HOLY CRAP! Who would have ever thought Dan-dan refused to answer a question?

 

 

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Alright then. I'm back from my afternoon's fun and am back to claim the victor’s prize. As victor over Daniel today I take this opportunity to post to all:

 

WARINING ALL EX AND NON-CHRISTIANS: ANY AND ALL EFFORTS TO COMMUNICATE WITH DANIEL WILL BE SUMMARILY DISMISSED BY HIM BECAUSE HE VIEWS YOU AS UNENLIGHTED THROUGH THE MEDIUM OF A SUPERNATURAL SPIRIT, AND CONSEQUENTLY UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF SATAN. YOU WILL BE VIEWED AS A THREAT BY HIM AND HE WILL QUOTE BIBLE VERSES AT YOU TO ESCAPE HIM LIVING UP TO HIS OWN ARROGANT BOASTS, BELIEVING HE HAS DONE A RIGHTEOUS DEED FOR GOD. WASTE YOUR ENERGY AT YOUR OWN CHOICE. DANIEL HAS CHOSEN THROUGH FEAR NOT TO UNDERSTAND OR CARE ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY TO HIM, DESPITE YOUR HONORABLE INTENTIONS.

 

ATTENTION ALL CHRISTIANS: TO THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE EMBARRASSED BY THIS TYPE OF CHRISTIANITY, WE ALL RESPECT YOU - SINCERELY.

 

Antlerman

[crazy-tiger]

Doesn't make any difference to me... I've been posting to him so that others will see just how irrational his mindset is.

 

 

The guy's had me on ignore for weeks, but at least it get's my post-count up...