Pretend Judgement Day Were to Actually Happen...

[Guest Guest]

Religion based on emotions is totally worthless, I agree.

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Let me clarify further. Personal biases need checks and balances. That's why peer review is so important in the scientific community. Also, you have a community of common biases, so my question is why does the vast majority of Christianity differ in interpreting scripture than your crowd does? Are they all wrong, and your folks are the only right ones?

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Was it a Baptist who thought he (she) is the only one right? Christian all my 80 years and now confsued due to "ugly" Christians. Will I ever be better---before suicide? It's that bad!! Caution to people who hurt others with their beliefs!

[Amanda]

Was it a Baptist who thought he (she) is the only one right? Christian all my 80 years and now confsued due to "ugly" Christians. Will I ever be better---before suicide?  It's that bad!! Caution to people who hurt others with their beliefs!

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Forget suicide! That really hurts others! Hey, hang around! Never let one bad apple spoil the whole bunch of us, my friend. :wink:

[Ouroboros]

ouch! that's gonna leave a mark!

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Cool. The message went through. I did it from my ... cell phone ...

[Amethyst]

I can just imagine both of them sitting around the house going I REBUKE YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS YOU DARKSIDED SINNAAARHGHAHRHA-UH! to the dryer whenever a sock is missing or static cling occurs.

 

If that happens, I truly feel sorry for the kids.

[scotter]

Daniel sometime ago I asked this question to Christian members in general, but I thought I would attempt it 2nd time for inviting your thoughts and comments, if applicable.

 

Ok, in the medieval times, doctrine of hell might nevertheless keep a person as Christian out of fear, although not the healthiest motive. Right here right now in 21st Century, doctrine of hell may drive “customers” away (check the factual data about Christian conversions to Buddhism). The Christian population is dwindling, one of the reasons is that customers are aware that they have choices. (I understand that you see the other choices as false choices, nonetheless this question is not about Christian apologetics of religions.)

 

If you insist that doctrine of hell is real and cannot be compromised, suppose you are or you are to become a pastor, what is your approach to evangelizing in 21st Century then?

[daniel_1012]

The ironic thing is all these nice people here will be there welcoming you when you do finally come.

 

There isn't anything ironic about it. It is however, gravely unfortunate that you base that on nothing but your own word, and not God's. So, all these nice people are gettin to heaven huh? Well, how I would love for that be true, pending their repentance and faith in Christ... it is far from the truth.

 

Whoever has not believed in Him, is condemned already. I have condemned nobody... and if I have given the Jesus YOU believe in, and have convinced yourself in (whatever that is, which is entirely not the one preached by the apostles), I THANK GOD I have given that man a bad name.

 

The Jesus however, whether accept among men or not, the Gospel shall not be perverted.

[Cerise]

How do you know you believe in Jesus and not Satan?

 

Where is your proof?

 

daniel, you are no more guarenteed to be a true believer then any of us. You have no idea who does and does not follow Jesus, and that includes yourself.

[daniel_1012]

Amanda,

 

I'm sure they would welcome me... and that is the problem you are missing. Satan will welcome me into hell, and in fact, that is his goal. But, I will not join him, because at least in that respect I am no fool. Stop perverting the Gospel. You have changed it, gravely. Paul wrote the person that preaches any other gospel be accursed. I'm not querrling with you, I'm just telling you how it is. I've seen your reaction when you've been accused of not being a Christian -- you raise your glass, and offer a toast. Put your arm around them, and love them straight into hell.

[Onyx]

There isn't anything ironic about it. It is however, gravely unfortunate that you base that on nothing but your own word, and not God's. So, all these nice people are gettin to heaven huh? Well, how I would love for that be true, pending their repentance and faith in Christ... it is far from the truth.

 

Pending repentence and faith in Christ? If I was God, I shall let everybody in, whether they believe in me or not. Because I am all merciful and kind and good as said in Bible.

 

But there's no god, so face reality. If you don't, at least don't preach aggressively or keep it to yourself unless asked.

 

Whoever has not believed in Him, is condemned already. I have condemned nobody... and if I have given the Jesus YOU believe in, and have convinced yourself in (whatever that is, which is entirely not the one preached by the apostles), I THANK GOD I have given that man a bad name.

 

Arrogance at work here. If you are going to be a good Christian, then don't be arrogant.

 

The Jesus however, whether accept among men or not, the Gospel shall not be perverted.

 

Anything can be perverted. The gospel can be legitmately be perverted by men because it is very vague to men. 24 000 sects have springed out of The Gospels.

What that does say about the Bible and the Gospels?

[Cerise]

Amanda,

 

I'm sure they would welcome me... and that is the problem you are missing.  Satan will welcome me into hell, and in fact, that is his goal.  But, I will not join him, because at least in that respect I am no fool.  Stop perverting the Gospel.  You have changed it, gravely.  Paul wrote the person that preaches any other gospel be accursed.  I'm not querrling with you, I'm just telling you how it is.  I've seen your reaction when you've been accused of not being a Christian -- you raise your glass, and offer a toast.  Put your arm around them, and love them straight into hell.

 

So, you worship Paul? Gee, and I thought you were a Christian all this time. Well, now you've set us straight. You are a follower of Paulianity.

[Onyx]

Cerise, most if all, fundamentalists are dishonest. They are not what they claim to be. That's why we avoid fundies. They'll shout and lie.

Like this one.

 

I hope Daniel can change so he'll realize what a jerk he was.

Or least a liberal xtian...

[RankStranger]

Daniel- I lurk more here than I post, so you may not have seen my around... but I've seen you. I've got a question for you.

 

I've known lots of christians, and none of them would entirely agree with your interpretation of the bible- for that matter, most of them would disagree with you on several points. These aren't wish-washy weekend-warrior christians- I'm talkin' about bible-thumpin' fundamentalist Baptists, Wesleyans, Church'o'God's, Pentecostals, etc... I grew up in Tennessee- I've met fundies of all sorts. All these folks read their bibles, pray, feel, believe, repent, rebuke, tithe... And yet they all disagree with each other and with YOU on lots of important points. They all claim that god speaks to them, they claim that the bible is clear, correct, and complete, and that THEY understand it. What makes any one of THEM correct? What makes YOU so special?

 

I just don't understand how you can have such unwavering confidence in YOUR interpretation of that book, considering that there are easily hundreds, and possibly thousands of SECTS of christianity... with MILLIONS of different individual interpretations among them.

[MQTA]

So why is it unforgivable to blaspheme the holy spirit, but not Jesus or the father? I never understood that even when I was a xtian. Are the son/father less holy? I thought they were all the same entity.

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Ever hear someone tell you that you can insult them, but DON'T insult their MOTHER because she's Holy?

 

Same thing

[Antlerman]

I've known lots of christians, and none of them would entirely agree with your interpretation of the bible- for that matter, most of them would disagree with you on several points.  These aren't wish-washy weekend-warrior christians- I'm talkin' about bible-thumpin' fundamentalist Baptists, Wesleyans, Church'o'God's, Pentecostals, etc... I grew up in Tennessee- I've met fundies of all sorts.  All these folks read their bibles, pray, feel, believe, repent, rebuke, tithe... And yet they all disagree with each other and with YOU on lots of important points.  They all claim that god speaks to them, they claim that the bible is clear, correct, and complete, and that THEY understand it.  What makes any one of THEM correct?  What makes YOU so special? 

 

I just don't understand how you can have such unwavering confidence in YOUR interpretation of that book, considering that there are easily hundreds, and possibly thousands of SECTS of christianity... with MILLIONS of different individual interpretations among them.

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Thanks for these words. I'm quoting again because I want Daniel to read it again, and I'm going to ask him the question again I've been trying to get answered.

 

Daniel,

 

You suggested we apply the scientific method to believing in Jesus? Ok, I will do so here for your benefit. Of course, I will need you to work with me on this process as you are saying you want to save us. First of all, I have asked you before why other Christians disagree with your reading of the bible. Not just a few Christians, but most of them. For clarification, please answer which of the following statements best reflects what you believe:

 

1. "I believe what I am saying here is a black and white issue. It's right there in plain language in the bible for everyone to read. I am reading what it says, and those who see something different than me are wrong. These are not my thoughts, they're God's words."

 

2. "When I read the bible on this subject, it seems plain to me, but I do understand a lot of Christians see something different than me. I think I'm right on this, but I could be wrong too?"

 

The reason I really want you to answer this for me is to show you are someone who can be trusted. In science, it's all about checks and balances to limit personal biases from tainting the results. It's all about the pursuit of *objectivity*. The way you answer the above question will be a starting point for objective discussion of your interpretation of the "findings" from your research. If however, you are unwilling to discuss the merits of your interpretation of data, or the vailidity of your processes, then that will make your theory pretty unlikely to get off the ground for further consideration.

 

You asked me to use science in approaching Jesus. I am. Now you need to work with me in evaluating your findings. This is what it will take to get me to consider your views. Are you willing to do this?

[Antlerman]

This music is great though.  That much I can say I know with much certainty! 

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Hello Antlerman!

 

That's what I need right now, after my last post. Relaxing with some delightful music of Enya. Thanks for bringing such a good idea to my attention.

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All forms of art are the most wonderful expressions of the energies of life as interpreting through the human spirit, and music in particular is what speaks most to me. In a way, it fills that element that the God object did in my need for spiritual expression. You are right Amanda, we do the same thing, just through different forms. Praise the Tunes!

[daniel_1012]

Daniel- I lurk more here than I post, so you may not have seen my around... but I've seen you.  I've got a question for you. 

 

I've known lots of christians, and none of them would entirely agree with your interpretation of the bible- for that matter, most of them would disagree with you on several points.  These aren't wish-washy weekend-warrior christians- I'm talkin' about bible-thumpin' fundamentalist Baptists, Wesleyans, Church'o'God's, Pentecostals, etc... I grew up in Tennessee- I've met fundies of all sorts.  All these folks read their bibles, pray, feel, believe, repent, rebuke, tithe... And yet they all disagree with each other and with YOU on lots of important points.  They all claim that god speaks to them, they claim that the bible is clear, correct, and complete, and that THEY understand it.  What makes any one of THEM correct?  What makes YOU so special? 

 

I just don't understand how you can have such unwavering confidence in YOUR interpretation of that book, considering that there are easily hundreds, and possibly thousands of SECTS of christianity... with MILLIONS of different individual interpretations among them.

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Bring them to the boards then, so we can discuss it. What interpretation have I made, that they would disagree with? And how do you know... did you tell them the issue and then directly ask them about it? I'm not different. I just believe what God says.

[daniel_1012]

I've known lots of christians, and none of them would entirely agree with your interpretation of the bible- for that matter, most of them would disagree with you on several points.  These aren't wish-washy weekend-warrior christians- I'm talkin' about bible-thumpin' fundamentalist Baptists, Wesleyans, Church'o'God's, Pentecostals, etc... I grew up in Tennessee- I've met fundies of all sorts.  All these folks read their bibles, pray, feel, believe, repent, rebuke, tithe... And yet they all disagree with each other and with YOU on lots of important points.  They all claim that god speaks to them, they claim that the bible is clear, correct, and complete, and that THEY understand it.  What makes any one of THEM correct?  What makes YOU so special? 

 

I just don't understand how you can have such unwavering confidence in YOUR interpretation of that book, considering that there are easily hundreds, and possibly thousands of SECTS of christianity... with MILLIONS of different individual interpretations among them.

106091[/snapback]

Thanks for these words. I'm quoting again because I want Daniel to read it again, and I'm going to ask him the question again I've been trying to get answered.

 

Daniel,

 

You suggested we apply the scientific method to believing in Jesus? Ok, I will do so here for your benefit. Of course, I will need you to work with me on this process as you are saying you want to save us. First of all, I have asked you before why other Christians disagree with your reading of the bible. Not just a few Christians, but most of them. For clarification, please answer which of the following statements best reflects what you believe:

 

1. "I believe what I am saying here is a black and white issue. It's right there in plain language in the bible for everyone to read. I am reading what it says, and those who see something different than me are wrong. These are not my thoughts, they're God's words."

 

2. "When I read the bible on this subject, it seems plain to me, but I do understand a lot of Christians see something different than me. I think I'm right on this, but I could be wrong too?"

 

The reason I really want you to answer this for me is to show you are someone who can be trusted. In science, it's all about checks and balances to limit personal biases from tainting the results. It's all about the pursuit of *objectivity*. The way you answer the above question will be a starting point for objective discussion of your interpretation of the "findings" from your research. If however, you are unwilling to discuss the merits of your interpretation of data, or the vailidity of your processes, then that will make your theory pretty unlikely to get off the ground for further consideration.

 

You asked me to use science in approaching Jesus. I am. Now you need to work with me in evaluating your findings. This is what it will take to get me to consider your views. Are you willing to do this?

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I have asked you before why other Christians disagree with your reading of the bible. Not just a few Christians, but most of them.

 

Most importantly here, I don't base what I believe off of what other Christians think. I base what I believe off of what the Bible says. If a Christian, clearly knowing the Lord, bring up an issue where I am in error... by all means I will recant. That hasn't happend yet on these boards though... the only "Christian" who has opposed what I've said is Amanda... and many non/ex-Christians have agreed she doesn't seem like a Christian to them either... but I've been labled a fundamentalist.

 

Tell me... if I'm saying something most Christians would disagree with, why have I been given the lable of a fundamentalist (one who teaches the fundamental beliefs of the faith). Sorry, you can say day and not "oh Christians would disagree with ya!" but it doesn't mean anything, not that I preach to please men.

 

I have showed why I believe the way I do, all along the way. I have given greek reference, and I will give Hebrew (when these are necessary) I'm not just saying, *this is how it is* I use scripture to interpret scripture, as one must do in order to show they aren't perverting the gospel.

[crazy-tiger]

Daniel... please prove that your interpretation is the correct one.

[Guest Guest_serenitynow_*]

Antlerman...Daniels answer is #1

 

1. "I believe what I am saying here is a black and white issue. It's right there in plain language in the bible for everyone to read. I am reading what it says, and those who see something different than me are wrong. These are not my thoughts, they're God's words."

 

The other thousands of Christian sects are wrong....only Daniel has the "truth"

[daniel_1012]

The other thousands of Christian sects are wrong....only Daniel has the "truth"

 

First off, that's a lie. You base that on nothing... you're just kinda following the flow here of what everyone is saying... like a mob. Though there ARE MANY that will disagree with me, that doesn't matter. I haven't said anything that utterly contridicts the Bible. I'm going to need specifics please.

 

I repeat, I don't base what I believe off of what other people believe. I base what I believe off of what the Bible says.

 

Also... you guys really need to quit just saying "Oh Christians don't agree with you." Show me some Christians... or at least tell me WHAT ISSUE I HAVE ADDRESSED that you say, they would disagree with.

 

Is it Hell?

Is it salvation?

Is it respect?

 

Regardless... until you bring me some Christians to talk to, you're blowing dust around.

[Amanda]

Ok, in the medieval times, doctrine of hell might nevertheless keep a person as Christian out of fear, although not the healthiest motive.

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Hi Scotter, I know you didn't direct this question towards me... yet I'd like to contribute to the discussion. First, I don't see how this ever keeps anyone out of fear. Perhaps it was used at a time that many barbaric acts were happening, such as looting, raping, killings, adultries, and so forth. Maybe the church decided, at some point, to drive the literal interpretation of hell to shock those into considering their despicable actions more? BTW, if they did so, it may have served its purpose then, but... it seems it has backfired now.

Right here right now in 21st Century, doctrine of hell may drive “customers” away (check the factual data about Christian conversions to Buddhism). The Christian population is dwindling, one of the reasons is that customers are aware that they have choices. (I understand that you see the other choices as false choices, nonetheless this question is not about Christian apologetics of religions.) 

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I personally think that understanding these other choices will eventually give more credibility to these teachings of Jesus in the long run! Right now, the terrible spin put on the Bible seems to have caused its original meanings to have been forced underground... and maybe through knowledge of other teachings, seeing the Bible (NT anyway) through fresh eyes, it will again be resurrected as originally intended. Many, including myself, see Jesus more Buddhist than anything else, yet I see parts of about everything taught in the NT.

If you insist that doctrine of hell is real and cannot be compromised, suppose you are or you are to become a pastor, what is your approach to evangelizing in 21st Century then?

106050[/snapback]

I think hell is a state of mind. There is weeping and gnashing of teeth right here! If heaven is within us, why wouldn't hell be there too? Lava, the lake of fire, we're standing on it! If one has no solid foundations on which to stand might be the bottomless pit. I'm not saying that there may be an awareness of something by part of us that I believe is transendent of the body... but it is NOT eternal, nor irreversible; or that would negate the concept of grace, IMHO, FWIW.

[crazy-tiger]

Daniel... Is speaking in tounges a gift for always or just for the original Disciples? Is the ability to drink deadly poison without ill effects a gift for always or just for the Disciples? Is salvation through works or through faith? Did Jesus do away with most of the OT laws or are they all still to be obeyed? Is the Bible 100% truth or are some parts of it a fictional story designed to convey a message? Is it Once saved, Always saved or can people leave the faith? (see Hebrews 6:4-6 for that one) Should you be humble and gentle in your dealings with others or should you do whatever is possible to spread the word?

 

Those are all points of contention and no matter what your answer to any of them, you WILL be disagreeing with other Christians.

 

 

 

Until you can prove that YOUR interpretation is the "true" one, you are spreading nothing more than YOUR gospel... something that you are condemning others for.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

By the way... on the assumption that Daniel is still ignoring me, I would appresciate someone quoting this so it is brought to his attention.

[Ouroboros]

Daniel- I lurk more here than I post, so you may not have seen my around... but I've seen you.  I've got a question for you. 

 

I've known lots of christians, and none of them would entirely agree with your interpretation of the bible- for that matter, most of them would disagree with you on several points.  These aren't wish-washy weekend-warrior christians- I'm talkin' about bible-thumpin' fundamentalist Baptists, Wesleyans, Church'o'God's, Pentecostals, etc... I grew up in Tennessee- I've met fundies of all sorts.  All these folks read their bibles, pray, feel, believe, repent, rebuke, tithe... And yet they all disagree with each other and with YOU on lots of important points.  They all claim that god speaks to them, they claim that the bible is clear, correct, and complete, and that THEY understand it.  What makes any one of THEM correct?  What makes YOU so special? 

It's interestings to see that the schizm between the Roman Catholic and the Greek Orthodox church basically came from a disagreement of who should have the last word of deciding the interpretation of the Bible. And that was 1000 years ago.

 

And then we have the English Church, or the Russian Orthodox, or the Coptic, or the Armernian Church... Everyone with their own little spin on the Bible, and all of the wrong, according to Daniel, since God picked him to carry the "true" gospel to our world today. God wanted everyone, even the Pope, to hear what the true message was, so he selected Daniel to speak to the world, and tell them that they have read the Bible wrong all the time!

 

*sigh*

 

If there is a god, he must be sitting up there and thinking, "no, no, not again, not another freaking nutcase that thinks he got the truth. Yet more wars and struggle to follow... can they never stop?"

 

I just don't understand how you can have such unwavering confidence in YOUR interpretation of that book, considering that there are easily hundreds, and possibly thousands of SECTS of christianity... with MILLIONS of different individual interpretations among them.

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I think the estimate is that since the beginning of Christiantiy 2000 years ago, the denominations now and all the different kinds since then, all adds up to a whopping 30,000 versions.

[Amanda]

Daniel... Is speaking in tounges a gift for always or just for the original Disciples? Is the ability to drink deadly poison without ill effects a gift for always or just for the Disciples? Is salvation through works or through faith? Did Jesus do away with most of the OT laws or are they all still to be obeyed? Is the Bible 100% truth or are some parts of it a fictional story designed to convey a message? Is it Once saved, Always saved or can people leave the faith? (see Hebrews 6:4-6 for that one) Should you be humble and gentle in your dealings with others or should you do whatever is possible to spread the word?

 

Those are all points of contention and no matter what your answer to any of them, you WILL be disagreeing with other Christians.

 

 

 

Until you can prove that YOUR interpretation is the "true" one, you are spreading nothing more than YOUR gospel... something that you are condemning others for.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

By the way... on the assumption that Daniel is still ignoring me, I would appresciate someone quoting this so it is brought to his attention.

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[crazy-tiger]