scotter Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 In that particular post Amanda was socializing, it wasn't a serious take on the premise of Hell. Reminds me of an event in the Gospel: Tax collectors, sinners of the day --- Jesus was dining and socializing with them --- Pharisees, as described in the Gospels, "this man Jesus is hanging out with sinners, is he a pious Jew?" Ex-C members (sinners in Daniel's eyes) --- Amanda as a Christian in her belief, she reaches out, she doesn't judge --- Daniel, "Amanda you hang out with sinners, are you a Christian?" For a Christian who comes to Ex.C net, it is not so much to confront the ex-Christians, but to confront himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel_1012 Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 In that particular post Amanda was socializing, it wasn't a serious take on the premise of Hell. Reminds me of an event in the Gospel: Tax collectors, sinners of the day --- Jesus was dining and socializing with them --- Pharisees, as described in the Gospels, "this man Jesus is hanging out with sinners, is he a pious Jew?" Ex-C members (sinners in Daniel's eyes) --- Amanda as a Christian in her belief, she reaches out, she doesn't judge --- Daniel, "Amanda you hang out with sinners, are you a Christian?" For a Christian who comes to Ex.C net, it is not so much to confront the ex-Christians, but to confront himself. 105290[/snapback] Completely out of context. When Jesus hung out with sinners, He was not like them. I'm not telling anyone not to hang out among sinner... I'm saying don't be like them, don't preach to please them... preach to please God. You never find Jesus going, "well maybe this and that, I know it has absolutely not baring in the word of God. Hey, lets take some marshmellows to hell with us won't that be a blast. LOL@hell." No... Not quite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotter Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Thank you for you response. Regardless of you disagree with me or yourself, from your own experience just incurred, all I am asking is, please have more understanding towards the Jews, as described in the Gospels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Hi Antlerman, I know that you are a very compassionate person! I too understand how self righteousness seems so blatantly disrespectful and arrogant about others, often unknowingly causing great emotional harm to people in their path. Yet, think if you were in a position that you thought one slight slip would send you into an eternally tormenting fire, you'd be afraid to change your ways too! It must be very scary, and a subconscious drive for eternal preservation puts a fear in him that he thinks we should have too, for our own good! 105172[/snapback] Thank you Amanda. Your wisdom is valued. That Daniel is so frightened of hell he should block out anything that challenges any ideas he has about the bible, is actually a rather tragic thing when you think about it., but it helps me to find something to try to understand to not be so offended by him. The hope that the bible story of Jesus tries to impart is freedom from guilt and fear! Yet he is quite evidently tormented by his need to follow the straight and narrow and not sway, lest he be cast into this burning lake of fire by his strict and demanding God. Shame really, that he feels that way about Jesus. In a sense, he has himself yet to be "saved". What is he saved from now? I certainly don't hear in his tone with others "the peace that surpasses all understanding". I certainly don’t see the fruits of a spirit at peace within. Hardly. What I hear is vehement condemnation and self righteousness. Absolutely everything that Jesus is portrayed as condemning of the Pharisees for in the Gospel of Matthew. This is not “Christ” in him we are seeing, it is pious religiosity at its very worst. You are a great person Amanda. I hate seeing Daniel condemning you along with all us “haters of god”, as he has judged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 It's really impossible to believe in universal salvation and profess Jesus is the Christ, consequently, universalism is not Christianity--it is antichrist. 105287[/snapback] Psst... Jesus wasn't the Christ, he was a false Prophet. Christianity is anti-God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxy Methoxy Posted November 11, 2005 Author Share Posted November 11, 2005 Do you think Daniel has a pocket Bible quoter, a computer generated quote finder, or do you think he's actually memorized the entire Bible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Do you think Daniel has a pocket Bible quoter, a computer generated quote finder, or do you think he's actually memorized the entire Bible? 105310[/snapback] I find it odd that at times he comes across as functionally illiterate or at a minimum severely dyslexic, then at other times he is able to condemn us in passing 12th grade English. Either he has MPD, there are two or more people behind the userid, or he is cutting and pasting from online apologetic sites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxy Methoxy Posted November 11, 2005 Author Share Posted November 11, 2005 I bet someone could make a lot of $$$ if they developed software that generates automated Bible quotes for religious discussion. Think about all the cash you could make aiding retarded fundies in creating an easy, convenient way for them to post their usual, meaningless, rhetorical, tired, lame, Bible quote based arguments. Either that or an 8 ball that you shake and it gives you pre-generated quotes such as "I'll pray for you!" "You're going to Hell!" and my favorite "Jesus Loves you!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Either that or an 8 ball that you shake and it gives you pre-generated quotes such as "I'll pray for you!" "You're going to Hell!" and my favorite "Jesus Loves you!" 105320[/snapback] They've got that already... it's called their brain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Do you think Daniel has a pocket Bible quoter, a computer generated quote finder, or do you think he's actually memorized the entire Bible? I think he has websites with verses bookmarked and copys and pastes them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxy Methoxy Posted November 11, 2005 Author Share Posted November 11, 2005 They've got that already... it's called their brain. They have a brain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 I find it odd that at times he comes across as functionally illiterate or at a minimum severely dyslexic, then at other times he is able to condemn us in passing 12th grade English. Either he has MPD, there are two or more people behind the userid, or he is cutting and pasting from online apologetic sites. 105314[/snapback] I've noticed and wondered the same thing myself. Sometime I think I'm not really remembering what Daniel is like. I'm leaning toward it being an older sibling or fanatical friend typing in his name at times. Worst case scenario: It is two different people - inside of Daniel himself. If so, I wonder what all the other people in there think of all this, if they're ever allowed to speak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxy Methoxy Posted November 11, 2005 Author Share Posted November 11, 2005 So what you're saying is: at best, he's several somewhat derranged people. At worst, he's one severely insane person who hears voices from several somewhat derranged people? I can agree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Hi again Daniel! Go read the Bible, please. From cover to cover, and best you seek the Lord formost as you do... before you do, and after you do. Consider Him, how large He is, where He is, who He is. 105287[/snapback] Dainiel, my friend, fwiw, I have read the Bible many times! I was in seminary 3+ years! I still can not say I have the absolute Truth! And I don't think you can either. We can ALL only say we have an opinion based on our particular studies and insights. How can we learn if we think we know it all or don't penetrate our established boundaries for possibilities beyond them? No one is asking you to change your opinions, just to be more tolerant, humble, and interactive. That's all. Is that so bad? Love is not telling others they are right, it is often telling them they are wrong -- for sure. The things you say, totally take away the power of God in Christ... 105287[/snapback] OK Daniel, then you are absolutely wrong and you're going to hell for eternity because of it! How does that feel? Daniel, who are we to judge others? We can only judge ourself. There is only one master, and we who judge unto condemnation will receive the greater condemnation in the end. Judge not lest we be judged... so wouldn't it be better to judge everyone wonderful? 1 John 2:22 - Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 105287[/snapback] Jesus is love, mercy, compassion. Jesus is standing up for those who are unjustly oppressed. This, and NOT condemnation, is the sign of the anointed one. If you deny this, then don't you deny Jesus? The Christ, is God in the flesh... come to save the world from sin. SAVE THE WORLD -- this in and of itself speaks of a necessary act. 105287[/snapback] "SAVE THE WORLD"... Well, if just one person doesn't eventually make it to heaven, Jesus failed! You say Christ has not come. 105287[/snapback] You're quite mistaken there! Jesus died for the sins of the world. Either this is true, or it is not. Either it is necessary, or it is not. 105287[/snapback] If he came for the world, don't you think he got it! :wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 What I hear is vehement condemnation and self righteousness. Absolutely everything that Jesus is portrayed as condemning of the Pharisees for in the Gospel of Matthew. This is not “Christ” in him we are seeing, it is pious religiosity at its very worst. 105297[/snapback] Antlerman, I think that is the mindset resulting of the literal possibility of eternity in fire and torment. It is probably what drove the Pharisee mentality, of those times, to be judgemental and oppressive then too! Especially, consider that they thought you had to be Jewish too! Jesus, through reasoning, created a level foundation for ALL to be considered equals. I think the group with whom he associated is much like this one here. Just people, disgusted by the radical fundamental (letter of the law) type of people, lifting the oppressed, lowering the arrogant. *sigh* Yet, I guess that mindset in eternal hell is embedded by fear, a powerful motivator, causing it to still endure till today! Amazing. You are a great person Amanda. I hate seeing Daniel condemning you along with all us “haters of god”, as he has judged. 105297[/snapback] Thanks, I like being closely associated with the great people here. I think Daniel is a good person at heart too. It's just his perceived consequences of an eternal life in toment by changing his mind just a little, is too great for him to even 'consider' another perspective! Although, I know how damaging the condemnation and elitist thinking can have on the people in their path. Very SAD. IF he could only understand that, he might have a chance of changing at least that part! Even though the fundies don't 'realize' their distructive influence to good people, it still can make it horrifically devastating none-the-less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanInPA Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Love is not telling others they are right, it is often telling them they are wrong -- for sure. The things you say, totally take away the power of God in Christ... 105287[/snapback] OK Daniel, then you are absolutely wrong and you're going to hell for eternity because of it! 105353[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Hi again Daniel!Go read the Bible, please. From cover to cover, and best you seek the Lord formost as you do... before you do, and after you do. Consider Him, how large He is, where He is, who He is. 105287[/snapback] Dainiel, my friend, fwiw, I have read the Bible many times! I was in seminary 3+ years! I still can not say I have the absolute Truth! And I don't think you can either. We can ALL only say we have an opinion based on our particular studies and insights. How can we learn if we think we know it all or don't penetrate our established boundaries for possibilities beyond them? No one is asking you to change your opinions, just to be more tolerant, humble, and interactive. That's all. Is that so bad? It is for Daniel... he want's to be like Jesus and his Jesus wasn't tolerant or humble at all. Love is not telling others they are right, it is often telling them they are wrong -- for sure. The things you say, totally take away the power of God in Christ... 105287[/snapback] OK Daniel, then you are absolutely wrong and you're going to hell for eternity because of it! How does that feel? Daniel can't be wrong, since what he believes is what God believes... which means that you must obviously be deceived by Satan and trying to turn him from God. Of course, he's got no proof for this, other than what he feels... so he feels you're deceived and won't even consider the possibility that HE is the one being deceived. Which makes him the perfect person for Satan to work through... You say Christ has not come. 105287[/snapback] You're quite mistaken there! Oh, Amanda... surely you know by now that what Daniel tells us what we are saying IS what we are saying. Never mind the fact that he's not a mind-reader and he's having to interpret what we post, he STILL knows what we are saying better than we do. I really don't want to disagree with you, since you are one of the very few Christians I've ever run into that actually shows the Fruits Of The Spirit, but I really think that your belief that Daniel is a good person at heart is badly mistaken... But, hey... I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 This is great! <puts more popcorn in the microwave> Get 'em, Daniel! You just keep posting! Don't listen to anything anyone is saying, just keep posting without reading the post you're responding to! It's funnier that way. On a serious note, I'm changing my answer, if called before God in judgment, I would like to have the following conversation with him... "So, uh... that whole talking donkey thing with Balaam... did that shit really happen?" "YES." "No way! Seriously?" "WELL, NOT REALLY. HE WAS ACTUALLY RIDING A RABBIT." "A rabbit? Oh yeah! Hey, rabbits don't chew cuds... what's up with that?" "ARTISTIC LICENSE." "No, You can't claim artistic license in a book of Absolute Truth!" "REALLY?" "Really." "UM... OKAY. I GUESS YOU CAN COME IN THEN." "Sweet. Where's the bitches?" "THERE ARE NO BITCHES IN HEAVEN!" "What?! No fucking way!" "THERE'S PLENTY IN HELL THOUGH." "Send me there then." "BUT THEY HAVE WINGS AND HORNS AND TAILS AND THEY'LL TORTURE YOU WITH HOT WAX AND REPEATED LASHINGS WITH SPIKED LEATHER STRIPS!" "And what?" "WELL, DOESN'T THAT SOUND BAD?" "How're their tits?" "WHAT?" "Tits, hooters, yaps, ta-tas, boobs, sweater meat..." "YES, I KNOW WHAT TITS ARE, BUT WHAT DOES THAT MATTER?" "That depends entirely on their size." "WELL, THEY'RE VERY LARGE... BUT THEY'RE COVERED IN EYEBALLS AND BRIGHT RED!" "Can I go now?" "WHERE?" "Hell, man! Jesus, don't you fucking listen?" "YOU'RE DAMNED TO HELLFIRE FOR ETERNITY!" "Sweet..." "I DON'T THINK YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT MEANS." "Shut up and send me to hell, you pigfucker!" "Dude! You can't call Jesus a pigfucker!" "Why not?" "He'll send you to hell!" "..." "Oh." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel_1012 Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Amanda, After this I won't debate what the Bible says then, anymore with you in this thread. It's quite clear, and God is there giving answers. Self-righteousness -- lets discuss this, and find out what it really is. Because often, the same people that us it the most, don't even know what it means -- and are themselves, self-righteous. Professing the Word of God... does that make you self-righteous? Were the prophets of God, who spoke His Word with authority as Christians are told they have authority, self-righteous? Was Paul self-righteous? Oddly enough Amanda (not so odd to me really) you will find many on these boards who would say Paul was indeed self-righteous. It is no surprise to me, because all I'm doing is repeating what he said and what Christ said. This is why they, not myself, have given me the title "fundamentalist." I want you to think about what that is. Perhaps they don't agree with it, but something they do not deny, is that my actions and words are *fundamentally* sound, with what the Bible actually says. Again, they may hate it, you may disagree with it... but it has been observed, my actions have mirrored the *fundamental* truths of what the Bible/Gospel teaches. At the same time... I am told, by the same people who argue with this fundamentalist, that I am wrong for my beliefs... strange, no? Amanda, you kiss them and receive kisses of approval. You have done the same for me, but I must, as Paul said, not preach to please you but to please God. If I received kisses from those apposing the fundamental beliefs of God's Gospel, rather than preaching it to please God... I am no Christian. Again, I point out, it has been duly noted by others than myself that what I say is *fundamental* to the Christian faith -- I wish you to consider this. I do not argue with, "but the law is to love." Who can argue with that Amanda? Certainly not I. I have not contest to bring to that statement. Indeed, the fulfillment of the law is to love. It is not the statement I contest, but the meaning you have given the word "love" within that statement. It does not testify of Christ -- the Bible Christ... the real Christ. It does not testify of His power to save REAL men from REAL hell. No Amanda, the Pharisees were not the only ones who believed in hell -- Jesus spoke of it too. Now, I take my fundamental beliefs of Christianity and I am going to tell you -- hell is real, and it awaits wicked men. I again suggest its residence is no more fathomable to us, than death was fathomable to Adam or Eve. Do you think Adam or Eve could understand death? God said, "you shall surely die." And, because of their ignorance... they didn't take God in faith at HIS WORD. They believed a lie, and perverted the truth God gave them. They bit the fruit, and what was the result Amanda? Death awaited them -- GOD'S WORD CAME TRUE. It will come true all the same for those who reject Christ -- 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. Do you somehow think you have found a hidden gospel that was not preached to the 12 apostles? Have you found the secret truth, that perhaps Jesus didn't preach or know yet? This is why I have given you (Galatians 1:6) I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel. Seek the truth, and you will find. Do not throw off hell merely because you do not understand it, or your throw of Christ. For Christ was not merely God in the flesh, but all things prophesied, and all things fulfilled that was Christ. Jesus was all things preached of the coming of Christ, as it was in the verse in Thessalonians I gave you before. Yes, the fulfillment of the law is to love -- do not mistake hate for philosophy on my behalf, as condemnation. I wish to see nobody condemned, but all men saved just as Christ desired all men saved. Do no mistake my straight forward feeding of what is fundamentally taught in the Bible, for false love -- it is real love... because right now Amanda, I am telling you the truth. Come away from them, have nothing to do with wicked men. Jesus had nothing to do with wicked men either, did you know that? He didn't hang out with sinner, ever... I know, you're saying WHAT?! And that is because you don't understand what I mean. Jesus did not hang out with unbelievers like you do... He came along side them, but did not become one of them. Those that utterly apposed God, Jesus utterly apposed. Do you remember him turning over the tables in the house of God, Amanda? Was Jesus being a Pharisee, and was he a hate filled hypocrite Amanda? As I said I would do before, first, we'll define the term righteousness. I suppose we'll go to dictionary.com for this since it will take a simple definition, but a more in depth understanding, so it would appear. Righteous 1. Morally upright; without guilt or sin: a righteous parishioner. 2. In accordance with virtue or morality: a righteous judgment. 3. Morally justifiable: righteous anger. See Synonyms at moral. Now, self... of course, self-righteous would be those who are righteous ON THEIR OWN POWER. Those who are righteous in and of their own ability to be righteous... to be good, and to stand justifiable. Amanda, the atheists here on the boards -- they are self-righteous in the true meaning of the word, because they do not need Christ. They deny Christ, because they attain their goodness elsewhere. Do not be confused with the meaning of what it is to be "self-righteous." It is not proclaiming the Word of God with authority that makes a man self-righteous, as I have been accused. Quite the opposite -- it is the proclamation of the Word of God in a man, that testifies that man is *not* SELF-righteous. A man who is already righteous does not need to go to God... They do not need Christ. Just as Christ said, though it was meant to cause men to know there was no other option -- They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. If these people think they are already righteous, they are not for them. If they don't need a savior, let them save themselves on the day of judgment, which is surely there as Christ has died and risen FOR THAT PURPOSE to save men from it... That is all Amanda, I'm quite sure I have provided ample argument for the case not I, but the Bible makes... Christ makes... and the Word of God makes. Take it or leave it. The wise cry out for wisdom, but fools will die by the words they've given themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 "Shut up and send me to hell, you pigfucker!" "Dude! You can't call Jesus a pigfucker!" "Why not?" "He'll send you to hell!" 105406[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 The wise cry out for wisdom, but fools will die by the words they've given themselves. 105415[/snapback] Everything you've just said is nothing more than words you've given yourself... You do not cry out for wisdom, as you are convinced you already have it. The irony is incredible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 105393[/snapback] Oh Crazy Tiger, you do think there is a goodness down there somewhere in Daniel, or you wouldn't have been putting all that energy into trying to get Daniel to see it's in there too! If Daniel can only get a 'glimpse' of what distruction that mindset not only does in devastating the lives of others, but even his own... he'll 'taste' what liberation Jesus brought in setting us free from all that! If he can be learning that it is not his job to save the world, it has already been done... then maybe he'll finally sit back, relax, and enjoy the beauty of compassion for ALL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Oh Crazy Tiger, you do think there is a goodness down there somewhere in Daniel, or you wouldn't have been putting all that energy into trying to get Daniel to see it's in there too! Maybe... he did once apologise for needlessly belittleing me, but that's the only sign I've ever had that there's any good in his heart... (and that was only 'cos I said how childish it was) But, and this is important, I'm not spending all this energy trying to show Daniel it's in there... I'm spending all this time and energy showing everyone else who reads it just how terrible his type of mindset can be. If Daniel can only get a 'glimpse' of what distruction that mindset not only does in devastating the lives of others, but even his own... he'll 'taste' what liberation Jesus brought in setting us free from all that! If he can be learning that it is not his job to save the world, it has already been done... then maybe he'll finally sit back, relax, and enjoy the beauty of compassion for ALL. 105423[/snapback] Like I said, the effort is aimed towards warning others away from that mindset. If just one person manages to stop themselves from heading down that path, then it's all worth it. Of course, if Daniel gets his eyes opened, it'll be an added bonus... Not that I think it'll happen, since he put me on ignore a while ago and I don't think he reversed that decision. (he's too sure that I know nothing at all...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Daniel = Proverbs 18:2 That's always been my opinion of long-winded Christians who aren't willing to even hear another viewpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Jose, I even challenged him to a debate because he was spouting his mouth off about things he knew nothing about. He declined, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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