Pre Fall Of Satan, Pre Creation And Post Creation Evil Show That The Bible God Is Self Refuting. (Comments Criticism, Please!)

[bornagainathiest]

Hello Thumbelina, the following may derail this thread a little, but I don't think it will very much...

 

Do you believe that there is one God who exists in three Persons?

 

Yes Sir! As the hymn says : "Holy, holy, holy! Merciful and mighty,

God in three persons, blessed Trinity." Though I know it is not expressly stated, deductive reasoning based on scripture lets believers know that God is triune. Scripture says God IS love. Can you know or be love if it's you, one and no other person or being to love? Love has to have an object to love, love is SELFLESS. The triune God is selfless.

 

 

 

That the Son is somehow ontologically dependent on the Father ("only begotten Son") and that the Holy Spirit is somehow ontologically dependent on the Father and the Son?

 

Yeah, they are together and it was that sundering of that unity by Jesus becoming sin for us that pained God and caused Jesus (incarnate) to die.

 

 

 

Do you believe that the Son is one person who now exists in two natures, divine and human? That He is truly God and truly man but one person, not two?

 

Yes. Don't try to ask me to explain it, it's a miracle. I can't even wrap my mind around eternity and God always existing. I don't even understand the Holy Spirit too much, like if He's like the lady on Fantastic Four that goes invisible but I do know He helps me understand the Word and when I pray I tell Him " I don't understand you but thank you, thank you, thank you!" He shows me how true the bible is and how good God is and how much God loves us.

 

 

That it's correct to say that Mary is the mother of God (since she couldn't be the mother just of the human nature)?

 

God is self-existing and eternal therefore Mary was the mother of God incarnate. The HS was the daddy Excuse me Ficino, the pervs are gonna want to say something here, I just know it. No pervs, it was a miracle and no monkey business went on like with the mythological Greek Gods.

 

 

 

Thank you in advance for considering these questions.

 

I'm sorry, I can't post on here too much lately (I have stuff going on) and I can't answer too many people (too many of y'all) but if you want to read some more on the trinity here's a link: http://creation.com/...ntering-critics

 

 

We did have a convo' before.

You are one of the more dispassionate, tolerant and polite ones around here, no?

 

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Pre Fall Of Satan, Pre Creation And Post Creation Evil Show That The Bible Go...

 

Posted by Thumbelina on 12 August 2012 - 03:48 PM in The Lion's Den

 

centauri, on 12 August 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

 

 

Thumbelina, on 12 August 2012 - 03:18 PM, said:

 

 

centauri, on 12 August 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

 

 

Thumbelina, on 12 August 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

 

 

centauri, on 12 August 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

 

 

Thumbelina, on 12 August 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

 

Every knee and tongue will confess, however, some will be genuinely repentant and some will just have a white flag surrender but their hearts will remain unchanged ( like Judas, he confessed Christ and was sorry for the consequences of His actions but he was not sorry for his duplicity).The phrase concerning knees bowing and tongues confessing is about paying homage to Yahweh, who is a singular savior and deity.

It has nothing to do with Jesus.

 

Isa 45:22-23

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

 

I'm curious ... . Can I ask you something?

Who is the us referring to in this verse?: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

The "us" is God's court, the majestic plural.

 

What the heck does that mean?

Jewish explanation:

http://jewsforjudais...nity&Itemid=501

 

Christian non-Trinitarian explanation:

http://www.wrestedsc...enesis3v22.html

 

Thanks for the links, I'll check them out

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Thumbelina,

 

Centauri showed you quite clearly that there is no trinity to be found within the book of Genesis.

The trinity is a purely NT concept that has nothing to do with Judaic Monotheism.

When Centauri mentioned majestic plurals, you hadn't a clue as to what he meant.

In your favor, you did say that you'd check his links out, to discover why the Jews don't have a triune God.

 

So, have you checked them out?

 

Can you now see that there is no trinity mentioned in Genesis?

 

If so, why have you replied to Ficino's questions, using the false New Testament concept of God?

 

BAA

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

Scripture says God IS love. Can you know or be love if it's you, one and no other person or being to love? Love has to have an object to love, love is SELFLESS.

Just because scripture says it, does not instantly make it true... Assuming the god of the Bible is even a god and not some other type of being or a man-made concept, it still does not even come close to having this "selfless love" you seem to think it has. It seems more like "God" only loves itself and no one else. Consider this, if a narcissist is all alone and has no one to be worshiped by, wouldn't it need worshipers? It seems everything that this god does is only for glorifying itself, because it appears to be the only thing that makes it feel good. Obviously scripture does not say "God IS narcissistic" though that certainly seems to be the case.

[Thumbelina]

@ all lemmings? lions? Ex Christians I hope you all are OK, I did not abandon you

[Ouroboros]

Lemmings was a good game. Someone should make a 3D version of it.

[Thumbelina]

Lemmings was a good game. Someone should make a 3D version of it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was thinking this:

 

 

 

 

http://www.cartoonstock.com/directory/j/jumping_off_a_cliff.asp

 

 

 

 

 

as I'm sure you well know

[bornagainathiest]

This is a warning to anyone unfamiliar with the soapbox Christian called Thumbelina!

 

She's been confined to the Lion's Den for abusing a new member of this forum and for stubbornly refusing to engage with anyone on any other subject than the contents of the Bible. 

 

She represents all the worst aspects of fanatical, bigoted and intolerant Christianity.

 

She is an ultra-hard core Biblical literalist and Creationist.

 

She only ever wants to discuss the contents of the Bible and will never, ever shift from her preacher's soapbox.

 

Any kind of rational and reasoned dialog is impossible with her.

 

Even though she's been politely asked to tell us exactly what denomination and type of Christianity she holds to, she's stubbornly refused to do so - causing us to wonder what she's got to hide.  We speculate that she might be a Seventh day Adventist, but she refuses to confirm or deny that possibility.

 

 

Please do not trust her and please avoid all contact with her.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Ouroboros]

 

as I'm sure you well know

 

You know it's a urban legend pushed by Disney studios.  They flew in lemmings and spun them on a turntable to make them fall off the cliff.

 

It can be used as a metaphor, but, sorry, beyond that, it's a myth. (Like some other myths maintained by some people here...)

 

Wish upon a star... and Jesus will answer your prayers. LOL!

[Thumbelina]

(Like some other myths maintained by some people here...)

 

as I'm sure you well know

 

You know it's a urban legend pushed by Disney studios.  They flew in lemmings and spun them on a turntable to make them fall off the cliff.

 

It can be used as a metaphor, but, sorry, beyond that, it's a myth. (Like some other myths maintained by some people here...)

 

Wish upon a star... and Jesus will answer your prayers. LOL!

 

 

 

Yeah, I consider it to be an idiom.

 

 

 

 

(Like some other myths maintained by some people here...)

 

 

Ahem, ahem

[Thumbelina]

...

 

Please do not trust her and please avoid all contact with her.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

You still fussin'? Despite all the fuss I still love ya!

[midniterider]

@ all lemmings? lions? Ex Christians I hope you all are OK, I did not abandon you

 

Thank Dawkins you're back. :-) Hope you had a good Winter Solstice. :-)

[bornagainathiest]

 

...

 

Please do not trust her and please avoid all contact with her.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

You still fussin'? Despite all the fuss I still love ya!

 

 

You love me?

 

Prove it.

 

Prove it by changing the way you treat me and everyone else in this forum Thumbelina.

 

Start by changing your profile page.  Change your 'Last Active' setting from private, so that we can see when you've been here.  If you've got nothing to hide, this shouldn't be a problem.  If you love me and the rest of us, don't hide secrets from us.

 

Change your profile page by removing the comment, "I'm attracted to bothering atheist types atm" and in future treat me and everyone else here with respect.  No more scoffing. No more mockery.  No more taunts and teasing. No more immature language.  No more name-calling.  No more infantile silliness.  If you love me and the rest of us, treat us as adults.  Bothering people by provoking and annoying them is not loving - it's selfish.

 

Prove your love by stopping your dodges and evasions and your ignoring of questions about yourself.  Be honest and truthful and open about yourself.  When someone asks which Christian denomination/sect/cult you belong to - answer truthfully.  No more secrets!

 

.

.

.

 

I confidently predict that you will fail to do these things Thumbelina.

 

Prove me wrong.

[Thumbelina]

 

@ all lemmings? lions? Ex Christians I hope you all are OK, I did not abandon you

 

Thank Dawkins you're back. :-) Hope you had a good Winter Solstice. :-)

 

 

 

Are you saying for you that absence (mine) made your heart grow fonder? Hey man, winter solstice is your forte and not mine.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

...

 

Please do not trust her and please avoid all contact with her.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

You still fussin'? Despite all the fuss I still love ya!

 

 

You love me?

 

...

 

 

I told you  already that I have my reasons for not engaging you in many conversations. I see you still have certain issues. I wanted/want to let you know that even though we don't see eye to eye I still acknowledge you as a person. I also have no intention of going back and forth arguing. Please respect that, I am not trying to strongarm you into complying with my wishes, i am simply requesting it.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

...

 

Please do not trust her and please avoid all contact with her.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

You still fussin'? Despite all the fuss I still love ya!

 

 

You love me?

 

...

 

 

I told you  already that I have my reasons for not engaging you in many conversations. I see you still have certain issues. I wanted/want to let you know that even though we don't see eye to eye I still acknowledge you as a person. I also have no intention of going back and forth arguing. Please respect that, I am not trying to strongarm you into complying with my wishes, i am simply requesting it.

How very interesting! 

The subject of your infantile behavior comes up and in a flash you get all serious and adult with me.  You drop the mockery and try to negotiate. So it looks like you can be an adult if you want to, it's just that 99% of the time, you don't want to.  How very loving!

 

Anyway, to business...

 

You're forcing me into the position of having to accept your claim (that you love me), without providing any behavioral evidence that you do, Thumbelina.  No problem!  I don't accept that you do love me. Your behavior has taught me NOT to take anything on faith from you. 

 

But to demonstrate that I can be flexible about this, here's a counter-proposal for you, Thumbelina.

 

Prove that you love others by changing the way you treat everyone else in this forum.  You don't have to have any dealings with me whatsoever, ok?  So, here's a re-hash of my initial challenge to you.

 

Prove that you love the others in this forum by changing your profile page.  Change your 'Last Active' setting from private, so that they can see when you've been here.  If you've got nothing to hide, this shouldn't be a problem.  If you love them, don't hide secrets from them.

 

Change your profile page by removing the comment, "I'm attracted to bothering atheist types atm" and in future treat everyone else here with respect.  No more scoffing. No more mockery.  No more taunts and teasing. No more immature language.  No more name-calling.  No more infantile silliness.  If you love them, treat them as adults.  Bothering people by provoking and annoying them is not loving - it's selfish.

 

Prove your love by stopping your dodges and evasions and your ignoring of questions about yourself.  Be honest and truthful and open about yourself.  When someone asks which Christian denomination/sect/cult you belong to - answer truthfully.  No more secrets!

 

I confidently predict that you will fail to do these things.

 

Prove me wrong.

 

BAA.

[Ravenstar]

I used to belong to the SDA, none of them were as rude and hateful as Thumbelina - they were very hospitable and kind, so I kind of doubt that - but I may have missed something... maybe I'll go back and read the posts someday.

 

I do however judge christianity by it's adherents (by their fruits and all that). Funny that the non-christians I meet and talk to are far more respectful and authentic and loving, in general.. hmmm(?)

 

It's an expression of hatred... born of elitism, to treat people this way. It's ego and pathological narcissism.

 

Interesting. I'm going to make some popcorn. 

[midniterider]

 

 

@ all lemmings? lions? Ex Christians I hope you all are OK, I did not abandon you

 

Thank Dawkins you're back. :-) Hope you had a good Winter Solstice. :-)

 

 

 

Are you saying for you that absence (mine) made your heart grow fonder? Hey man, winter solstice is your forte and not mine.

 

 

Sad face when you're not around to be picked on. lol.

[mymistake]

 

 

But to demonstrate that I can be flexible about this, here's a counter-proposal for you, Thumbelina.

 

Prove that you love others by changing the way you treat everyone else in this forum. 

 

 

 

 

 

BAA you can't get blood from a cold, dead stone no matter how hard your squeeze.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

But to demonstrate that I can be flexible about this, here's a counter-proposal for you, Thumbelina.

 

Prove that you love others by changing the way you treat everyone else in this forum. 

 

 

 

 

 

BAA you can't get blood from a cold, dead stone no matter how hard your squeeze.

 

 

I salute you, MM!     

 

Such wisdom!  So clearly and succinctly put!  You see the truth, my friend!

 

For what it's worth, I don't expect to get anything out of Thumbelina - hence my prediction.

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

I used to belong to the SDA, none of them were as rude and hateful as Thumbelina - they were very hospitable and kind, so I kind of doubt that - but I may have missed something... maybe I'll go back and read the posts someday.

 

I do however judge christianity by it's adherents (by their fruits and all that). Funny that the non-christians I meet and talk to are far more respectful and authentic and loving, in general.. hmmm(?)

 

It's an expression of hatred... born of elitism, to treat people this way. It's ego and pathological narcissism.

 

Interesting. I'm going to make some popcorn. 

 

Ravenstar, the only person in this forum who knows for certain if Thumbelina actually is a Seventh Day Adventist, is... Thumbelina.

 

She's been asked if she is (more than once) and always refuses to answer, usually by completely ignoring the question.  We've only surmised that she is an SDA.  For some 'secret' reason, she won't tell us. 

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

...

 

Please do not trust her and please avoid all contact with her.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

You still fussin'? Despite all the fuss I still love ya!

 

 

You love me?

 

...

 

 

I told you  already that I have my reasons for not engaging you in many conversations. I see you still have certain issues. I wanted/want to let you know that even though we don't see eye to eye I still acknowledge you as a person. I also have no intention of going back and forth arguing. Please respect that, I am not trying to strongarm you into complying with my wishes, i am simply requesting it.

 

 

Thumbelina,

 

(Negative) Kudos to you for slyly painting me as the bad guy in your response. 

 

I'm the one who's got certain issues with you? 

I'm the one who's trying to strongarm you into complying with my wishes? 

I'm the one who's not showing respect to you? 

All of which makes you sound like the injured, innocent party here? 

 

Full marks to you for firing these 'clever' accusations at me, under my radar, so to speak.  It wasn't until I re-read your post today that I wised-up to your nasty little game.

 

Sorry, but I'm not going to let you get away with this. 

I'm not doing so for myself, but for those who aren't yet wise to you.  They need to know just what a viper you are.  They need to see how two-faced you really are.  You say that love me, but less than 24 hours later, you stab me in the back like this.  This is what you mean by 'love', is it?

.

.

.

 

 

So then, let's set the record straight, by looking at the facts.

 

I'm not the villain of the piece - YOU are. 

You're not the victim here, either. 

Others have suffered abuse, mockery, scorn and name-calling at your hand.

 

I'm not the one who's despised, loathed and distrusted - YOU are.

I'm not the one who tells people that I love them and then treats them like shit - YOU are.

I'm not the one who's an intolerant, bigoted, selfish, secretive, hard-hearted know-it-all - YOU are.

 

I'm not the one that the Mods have labelled a, "Soapbox Christian", because of your endless preaching - YOU are.

I'm not the one who's been confined to the Lion's Den by the Mods, because of your behavior - YOU are.

I'm not the one who's reaped such a bitter harvest in this forum - YOU are.

 

You disgust me! 

 

BAA.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

I don't mean you harm BAA, let's just agree to disagree please.

 

 

 

 

...

 

Please do not trust her and please avoid all contact with her.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

You still fussin'? Despite all the fuss I still love ya!

 

 

You love me?

 

...

 

 

I told you  already that I have my reasons for not engaging you in many conversations. I see you still have certain issues. I wanted/want to let you know that even though we don't see eye to eye I still acknowledge you as a person. I also have no intention of going back and forth arguing. Please respect that, I am not trying to strongarm you into complying with my wishes, i am simply requesting it.

How very interesting! 

The subject of your infantile behavior comes up and in a flash you get all serious and adult with me.  You drop the mockery and try to negotiate. So it looks like you can be an adult if you want to, it's just that 99% of the time, you don't want to.  How very loving!

 

Anyway, to business...

 

You're forcing me into the position of having to accept your claim (that you love me), without providing any behavioral evidence that you do, Thumbelina.  No problem!  I don't accept that you do love me. Your behavior has taught me NOT to take anything on faith from you. 

 

But to demonstrate that I can be flexible about this, here's a counter-proposal for you, Thumbelina.

 

Prove that you love others by changing the way you treat everyone else in this forum.  You don't have to have any dealings with me whatsoever, ok?  So, here's a re-hash of my initial challenge to you.

 

Prove that you love the others in this forum by changing your profile page.  Change your 'Last Active' setting from private, so that they can see when you've been here.  If you've got nothing to hide, this shouldn't be a problem.  If you love them, don't hide secrets from them.

 

Change your profile page by removing the comment, "I'm attracted to bothering atheist types atm" and in future treat everyone else here with respect.  No more scoffing. No more mockery.  No more taunts and teasing. No more immature language.  No more name-calling.  No more infantile silliness.  If you love them, treat them as adults.  Bothering people by provoking and annoying them is not loving - it's selfish.

 

Prove your love by stopping your dodges and evasions and your ignoring of questions about yourself.  Be honest and truthful and open about yourself.  When someone asks which Christian denomination/sect/cult you belong to - answer truthfully.  No more secrets!

 

I confidently predict that you will fail to do these things.

 

Prove me wrong.

 

BAA.

 

 

 

 

 

 

BAA, I love you in an agape sense and not QUITE in a phileo sense (it's possible though and I do somewhat, I told you I liked you as you had made me laugh when I first came here) as I do not know you and you feel some sort of anger or annoyance toward me as you always seem to not like my writing style.That of course is your choice and since you told me that, I try to refrain from answering you in the style you don't like, though I did not always succeed. From a Christian perspective, love fulfils the law (the ten commandments). The last 6 commandments deal with man's relationship to man (generic term). I show love to you in this sense: Commandment #5 You are not my parent so I don't have to honor you as in a parent-child relationship by obeying all of your commands. #6 I did not murder you and I do not hate you, I try to leave you alone as you express great dislike for my message and even the style I write in. #7 I did not commit adultery on you as I am not married to you. #8 I did not steal anything from you. #9 I did not bare false witness against you, I address you based on the evidence of your actions. #10 I do not covet anything you have as I am a Christian and therefore believe that Christ will supply all my needs.

 

You seem to have a misunderstanding about love, love does not entail giving in to the whims and wishes of man. The Christian knows that God sometimes does not give us what we ask, for he sees the big picture. It's like the 8 year old who wanted a baby sister and her parents were unable --or maybe unwilling-- to have any more children and the child just wants a baby in the house so she prays " Dear Jesus, could you please make me pregnant so I can have a baby to love?" The child is sincere but will it be conducive for God to grant her prayer? Well, same way Christians may have to deal with others too. Christians are disciples of Christ and when looking at the bible one sees that when the Pharisees were hounding Jesus in order to trap Him, he did not answer their questions. Jesus even had to rebuke them in some instances. Paul was a disciple and when that demon possessed girl was following him and trying to confuse everybody, Paul rebuked her, did he not? The bible does not teach believers to acquiesce to every man in every instance, it in fact says that the Christian ought to obey God rather than man.

 

Now, you seem to want me to change MY personality and MY feelings or impressions about unbelievers/disbelievers. It so happens I find many to be interesting, if not intriguing and I LIKE engaging them. I happen to find the personalities of some to be quite jocular, some have a sarcastic wit that I seem to like and some actually respond positively to my brand of humor; they can actually bandy words with me. Some HATE it when I write the way I do, one guy-whom I found to be quite intriguing-- asked me why I wrote like that, to which I basically told him 'Man, you're old timish, get with the times, it's common these days to write like that!' It's in articles and in the media e.g. Rollin' With Zack , Bitchin' Kitchen etc. It just so happens we eventually ended up getting along even though we have different beliefs. He accepted that I can CHOOSE to write how I want and I realized he did not like it so I did not write that way to him. I have CHOICES and when I joined this site I never got the impression that it was operating under a dictatorial regime with a collective dictating every single thing non ex Christians do/write. As a matter of fact, Dave seemed pretty cool to me and later I thought some members were more or less tolerant; I did not see them as religionists (as in, 'my way or the highway, no reasoning or discussion necessary!').

 

 

 

 

 

Also, I reserve the right to sometimes mock and scoff at atheistic beliefs and to tease atheists who don't MIND me doing so. Elijah scoffed at the pagans and their flaccid gods. He basically asked them 'Where are your gods, did they go take a piss?!' I tend not to mock the pagans but atheistic beliefs (non beliefs) are fair game as that is the nuttiest one. I reserve the right to disclose or reveal anything about my personal or religious life that I deem fit to disclose or reveal. Also, the Christian is sometimes IMPRESSED to do or not do certain things, so yes, Christians may obey impressions and depend on those to respond or not respond to skeptics. I also did reveal certain things about myself to certain people online and in real life and what they did with the info was to use it against me and like crabs in a barrel they used what I disclosed to compete with me. When that happens my introverted self just retreats into my shell. I must learn to rely on the HS to give me impressions.

 

 

I don't mean you harm BAA, let's just agree to disagree please.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

 

@ all lemmings? lions? Ex Christians I hope you all are OK, I did not abandon you

 

Thank Dawkins you're back. :-) Hope you had a good Winter Solstice. :-)

 

 

 

Are you saying for you that absence (mine) made your heart grow fonder? Hey man, winter solstice is your forte and not mine.

 

 

Sad face when you're not around to be picked on. lol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You think I did not know that?

 

It's nice sparring with you too. 

[midniterider]

". I also did reveal certain things about myself to certain people online and in real life and what they did with the info was to use it against me and like crabs in a barrel they used what I disclosed to compete with me. When that happens my introverted self just retreats into my shell. I must learn to rely on the HS to give me impressions."

 

You talk of crabs and shells and phileo-fish. :-) I'm off to Red Lobster!

[Ravenstar]

wow.. so you only have to respect your parents?

 

I didn't know that.

[Evolution_beyond]

Thumbelina,

 

Can Satan repent?  Would God forgive him?