God's Critics Helped Me Out

[mymistake]

To all the new people:

 

Thumbelina does not believe in eternal hell.  Countering the doctrine of eternal damnation won't go anywhere with her because she doesn't believe it.  Bringing up the Bible verses that support it is a waste of time because only false interpretations lead to that doctrine.

[Thumbelina]

Thumby has god-colored glasses coke bottle thick.

Yes, dear Par, I see you guys through rose-colored glasses too; such potential!

[Thumbelina]

I don't know thumb since I'm quiet new here

but if I may ask you one question

why it seems like christian's core of faith are the book called bible and the list of rules, doctrines and dogmas instead of Jesus' way of life itself?

 

 

 

Christians have to be careful that they don't follow in the steps of the Jews & make idols out of their activities & doctrines. You are right, Sir & Jesus did tell off the people about that in John 5:39.

[RipVanWinkle]

No hell? Well, maybe god won't believe in Thumbelina because she has not believed the Word of God.    That is the same kind of thinking that she uses to condemn all of us.  bill

[Thumbelina]

 

No He is not. Faith comes by hearing & hearing by the Word of God. In my debates with unbelievers I

observed that they have a wrong concept of God. They were taught that God is basically a tyrant; if

that was the type of God presented to me I won't believe in Him either. When I read the bible I see a

wonderful, merciful savior who loves us tremendously. Sorry you did not see or experience that.

 

STOP TELLING MEN WHAT TO DO!

 

 

God said you must be quiet and listen to what we as men have to say. Why won't you listen to god? He's very clear in his instruction to you.

"A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet" - 1 Timothy

 

Are you wearing a veil? Why not? Why won't you listen to god?

For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil. For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.  - 1 Corinthians 11

 

Jesus didn't even want a women to touch him. (John 20:17) 

"Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father,"

(A few verses on Jesus is ok with Thomas touching him though. Now that I think about it Jesus also never mentioned homosexuality ever and never showed any interest in women. Makes you wonder.)

 

There were no female disciples and there are no books in the bible written by women. It seems like god doesn't like your gender very much.

 

Time to look at the facts. You're making baby Jesus cry by acting like a man and believe me, he is not someone you should piss off. He'll hand you over to that other guy, his nemesis if you don't start acting like a godly women ought to act.

 

-

edit just to say if my fundie wife sees this she's going to kick my ass. She also refuses to listen to god's instruction.

 

Heh Heh, why did you start off your post by yelling? I'm not intruding on you. Your texts are taken out of context & I'm not going there; I did it too many times already & it was of no avail. Btw Jesus did have female disciples & one of them sat at His feet while her sister complained but enough of that; I don't want any wearisome contention.

[Thumbelina]

 

I don't know thumb since I'm quiet new here

but if I may ask you one question

why it seems like christian's core of faith are the book called bible and the list of rules, doctrines and dogmas instead of Jesus' way of life itself?

I've often wondered that myself.  jesus said if you want salvation you should sell your possessions and give to the poor; so why do christians always vote republican?  jesus said if you want to follow him you have to hate your family; so why are christians always so concerned about family values?

 

I could go on like this all day...

 

 

 

Text without context is a pretext.

[Thumbelina]

 

Saying God doesn't exist is worse than criticizing Him. In essence, I'm

mitigating the offense

 

Hi Thumbelina

 

To be honest, reading through your posts you sound kinda naive and ignorant or a just not too intelligent. Just my impression. You seem to be nice though and well intended.

 

Now I would say, if God exists and he is this great and loving personality, he would be totally fine with people not believing in his existence and see it as a challenge to show he was real to them. Also if like the bible says Jesus is God just think of how God and Jesus are portrayed in the bible. Like the Lion of Judah for example. Well, nowadays a lion needs protection but that's another topic...but back then when the bible was written, a lion was a strong animal that was able to protect it self, no human needed to do so. I think there is no need to mitigating any offense against God. If he does exist  he can take it and if he doesn't exist there is no point in that anyways.

 

Now if you have become less sensitive I assume you mean you don't get offended by others having a different opinion. Thats a good thing if it means, you also are able to read other people's opinions and let your thinking be challenged by them. Not that you have to agree or anything, but just to be open and not jump into self defense mode. When it means you can let go of your pre modeled conclusions and be open to learn for yourself as well, not only in being less sensitive. So far you have not given proof to that but I welcome you to do so.

 

 

 

 

You sound like BAA. My defending God is not for His benefit; there is nothing too hard for Him (Jer. 32:27). It's for the benefit of crazy lemmings/sheep who've jumped off cliffs/gone astray & who won't listen to the promptings of the HS. Former lemmings gotta tell them "taste & see that the Lord is good." I've not been offended by others having different opinions; it's the ad hominems (I saw yours btw) that I'm learning to ignore I fell down in public during the summer & didn't feel too ashamed so I'm growing; thanks to putting myself in a lions den with naughty lions which desensitized me.

[Thumbelina]

 

Adam5: Hi Thumbelina, 4 years on and off with the "unequally yoked" and you havent deconvered yet? I am suprised by this.

 

I'm grateful to the folk around here as they helped buttress my faith. I also got to see how hurt, nice & funny some unbelievers can be.

 

Hello again, yes there are some nice people here and there are some funny people too.  They have tested your faith. I know this can be tough. But I thought Christians werent supposed to mix with the unwashed

 

"Do not be unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and lawlessness have in common? What fellowship has light with darkness"

 

In Paul's day it was the same problem: Christ crucified is "foolishness to Gentiles." Its the same today. Once you are taken off the God glasses, you think "what nonsnense.  How can I have believed this stuff?"

 

 

 

 

 

Ha ha, you're funny. Again I say, text without context is a pretext. Jesus hung out & ate with the social outcasts all the time. Matter of fact the sanctimonious snoots from His church ridiculed Him for it: "And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?"

 

 

"The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!"

 

 

 

 

Christians aren't supposed to be insular & cliquish. You guys are the figurative winebibbers & drunkards lol & we, the disciples, are supposed to entreat you to embrace the "new wine" (Mark 2:22) *wink* *wink* *wink*

 

 

 

 

Of course if one is so utterly tempted to join the figurative winebibbers & drunkards in their scoffing & blaspheming then one should cease & desist (Mark 9:47). One ought to pray for the figurative winebibbers & drunkards & by God's grace some will see the light!

[mymistake]

 

I'm not intruding on you. Your texts are taken out of context & I'm not going there; I did it too many times already & it was of no avail. Btw Jesus did have female disciples & one of them sat at His feet while her sister complained but enough of that; I don't want any wearisome contention.

 

 

Of course none of the members here is as sexist as Saint Paul.  Jesus is attributed to have had female disciples but none of them were among the twelve let alone the inner circle.  (At least not in any of the gospels that were not destroyed as heresy.)  That the top 12 disciples were all men is sexism.  There was no woman fit to be part of the 12?

 

You accept the Book of Timothy as the word of God yet you will not obey the commands within.  This shows that you yourself are not willing to be consistent.  It would be one thing to reject Timothy as a forgery or as nonsense but to elevate it to Word of God and still not obey it is the height of inconsistency.

[Thumbelina]

"No He is not. Faith comes by hearing & hearing by the Word of God." Thumbelina

 

Damn. If I had just read the bible during all that time god would have heard me  Oh wait. I did.   bill

 

 

The devils read the bible & they know it better than us (James 2:19). I'm not minimizing your experience, OK, I'm just refuting your logic based on what the bible says.

[Thumbelina]

 

No He is not. Faith comes by hearing & hearing by the Word of God.

 

I've found that faith comes by being ignorant and refusing to reach one's own conclusions about certain subjects, opposed to the conclusions that one is told are the "correct conclusions" when reading the Bible or any other religious texts.

 

 

In my debates with unbelievers I

observed that they have a wrong concept of God. They were taught that God is basically a tyrant; if

that was the type of God presented to me I won't believe in Him either.

 

I really don't understand why you think the concept of your god being a tyrant is "wrong". He certainly behaves like a tyrant in the Bible.

 

When I was a believer, I was certainly not taught that "God" was a tyrant. I was taught that he was this:

 

a

wonderful, merciful savior who loves us tremendously.

 

I came to the conclusion that "God" was a tyrant on my own, after realizing that his behavior in the Bible does not fit in with the concept of a "wonderful, merciful savior", but in fact defines the concept of a cruel, narcissistic, insecure tyrant who needs to kill something every time someone looks at him funny.

 

 

Sorry you did not see or experience that.

 

At one time, I believed that he was a "wonderful, merciful savior" and I even deluded myself into thinking that I was experiencing his love, when what I was actually experiencing was the effects of placebo and wishful thinking. It was only after I realized for myself what kind of a deity "God" actually was that the experience and self-deceit ended.

 

Just sayin'.

 

I had the opposite experience. The more I read for myself the more I saw how just & holy & good God is.

[mymistake]

 

"No He is not. Faith comes by hearing & hearing by the Word of God." Thumbelina

 

Damn. If I had just read the bible during all that time god would have heard me  Oh wait. I did.   bill

 

 

The devils read the bible & they know it better than us (James 2:19). I'm not minimizing your experience, OK, I'm just refuting your logic based on what the bible says.

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, Thumbelina.  You have no idea what it means to refute logic.  If falls completely outside of your skill set.  The slogans you use to build your own faith in no way refute logic.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

I don't know thumb since I'm quiet new here

but if I may ask you one question

why it seems like christian's core of faith are the book called bible and the list of rules, doctrines and dogmas instead of Jesus' way of life itself?

I've often wondered that myself.  jesus said if you want salvation you should sell your possessions and give to the poor; so why do christians always vote republican?  jesus said if you want to follow him you have to hate your family; so why are christians always so concerned about family values?

 

I could go on like this all day...

 

well, it's not in that sense though

what I mean is simply why just because she read the book called bible and called herself christian she is suddenly have the secret information/authority to say that others are wrong and I'm the right one, you never had the right understanding, you never had the real relationship, and other cliche excuses

 

 

The secret things belong to God but He reveals what He deems fit to reveal to His disciples (Deut. 29:29).

 

Did you hear about the Pastor who died from snake bites recently? He took texts out of context & that's what he got. The bible says that Satan comes as an angel of light & God's disciples ought to be able to spot counterfeits. Counterfeits tend to resemble the real thing, therefore one has to study the true and counteract the counterfeits.

[Thumbelina]

A special frame of reference or knowledge is a common fantasy of many theists.  It appears likely that this and similar delusions are formed and maintained to allow the believer to self-medicate the cognitive dissonance from which they suffer.  In some cases, where the believer has clinical grandiosity or narcissism, it feeds those emotional dysfunctions.

Eh, make up your minds. Atheistic arguments are that Christians are taught that they are sinful & evil & basically nothing. Now you're saying they're grandiose & narcissistic? So which is it, huh?

[par4dcourse]

Spreading "sunshine" and making friends whoever she goes.

[Thumbelina]

"Saying God doesn't exist is worse than criticizing Him. In essence, I'm

mitigating the offense"  Thumbelina

 

 

Sorry for my being a little slow on the uptake, ( I was so surprised that you thought we were criticizing a real bible god rather than the myth) but I missed the substance of your post quoted above. You are telling us that you think it is worse to not believe in the bible god's existence than to believe in him and criticize him?

 

One cannot believe in your god when there is no evidence to support the belief. And he never answered any of my prayers which were in the thousands. And he never gave me any reason to believe that he was receiving my prayers, even though my pleas were as sincere and honest as possible, and even though I never asked for anything from him except to know him and do his will. And even though all of my other requests were for other people, not myself. Nobody could have wanted him to acknowledge me any more passionately. So  over years I came to the only conclusion I could reasonably make under the circumstances. He might not exist. But i didn't give up.

 

I spent years studying christian history, apologetics , bible history and other related subjects. Nothing that made sense supported a logical conclusion that Xtianity was true.

 

So that is, to your mind, worse than somehow forcing myself to believe in god and criticize him by asking: Why he commanded the Jews to show no mercy to its enemies, to kill every man, woman (pregnant or not), child and animal of the enemy who had done them no wrong?And in some cases allow the Jews to save the virgins for themselves, whether the virgins consented or not? And to ask why god permitted the Jew to have slaves and to kill them in undeserved circumstances? And why he allowed one of his prophets to command a bunch of she bears to slaughter 40 or 50 little children for nothing but their acting childish? 

 

And why would god, who is omniscient. omnipotent, omnipresent, etc., create humans knowing that the vast majority of them would not meet his standards and then send them to the "lake of fire" for eternity? Why create humans at all under those conditions?

 

Why label all humanity as being sinful as a result of the minor infraction of one man and one woman, when he knew they would commit that sin? Why should that sin be imposed on all of mankind?

 

There is virtually no end to these serious questions? Some say free will is the answer. What kind of free will is it for mankind to be told, if you don't believe in Jesus a savior, you will burn for eternity, when that belief would be in violation of all natural laws known to mankind? And unsubstantiated by history? The bible said in Jeremiah (don't remember the specific citation) that god would write his laws on his chosen people's hearts and souls so that they could not violate them?. Why did he not likewise write the belief in Jesus in mankind's hearts and minds rather than torture them for eternity? 

 

If these questions should not be asked, then there is no basis to say we have "free will" because we can't ask the questions of god that either  would or would not justify our belief in Jesus. We would be robots.

 

If you don't post an answer to this, I will understand.   bill

 

(Sorry guys. I had to get this off my chest--again.)

 

"You are telling us that you think it is worse to not believe in the bible god's existence than to believe in him and criticize him?"

 

 

 

 

Yup.

 

 

 

"One cannot believe in your god when there is no evidence to support the belief. And he never answered any of my prayers which were in the thousands. And he never gave me any reason to believe that he was receiving my prayers, even though my pleas were as sincere and honest as possible, and even though I never asked for anything from him except to know him and do his will. And even though all of my other requests were for other people, not myself. Nobody could have wanted him to acknowledge me any more passionately. So over years I came to the only conclusion I could reasonably make under the circumstances. He might not exist. But i didn't give up."

 

 

 

Sorry you saw it that way.

 

 

 

"So that is, to your mind, worse than somehow forcing myself to believe in god and criticize him by asking: Why he commanded the Jews to show no mercy to its enemies, to kill every man, woman (pregnant or not), child and animal of the enemy who had done them no wrong?And in some cases allow the Jews to save the virgins for themselves, whether the virgins consented or not? And to ask why god permitted the Jew to have slaves and to kill them in undeserved circumstances? And why he allowed one of his prophets to command a bunch of she bears to slaughter 40 or 50 little children for nothing but their acting childish?"

 

 

1 Cor. 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

 

 

God allowed this one lost sheep of a planet to experiment with lawlessness as they chose to do so. These things came about to compare & contrast how God's original plan was perfect. ... and for sin to become exceedingly sinful in the eyes of the believer. I keep saying God sees the big picture & sometimes He steps in to curb some of the evil & that sometimes means wiping out people He knew would utterly destroy Israel & therefore the Messiah who had to save the world.

 

 

"And why would god, who is omniscient. omnipotent, omnipresent, etc., create humans knowing that the vast majority of them would not meet his standards and then send them to the "lake of fire" for eternity? Why create humans at all under those conditions?"

 

I got some extra insight into this recently but I can't explain it well yet but this planet is the jury for God & we will vindicate His character so the whole universe would trust Him & love Him freely & feel safe with him. Hell is not eternal, God is the everlasting fire (Isa. 33:14-15) & those who accept Jesus will dwell with him just fine without being consumed. Those who don't will be consumed & NOT kept alive to burn for eternity.

 

 

 

 

"Why label all humanity as being sinful as a result of the minor infraction of one man and one woman, when he knew they would commit that sin? Why should that sin be imposed on all of mankind?"

 

I heard from some Jewish Christians that the opposite of Holy is adulterous. What man would like his wife to go a whoring with other lovers? That's what Adam & Eve did & the result was them passing on inherited selfish tendencies & the kids even learned more bad stuff. Didn't their son murder his brother? Babies are selfish. All mankind has a way of escape but few accept it (Matthew 22:14)

[mymistake]

 

 

 

I don't know thumb since I'm quiet new here

but if I may ask you one question

why it seems like christian's core of faith are the book called bible and the list of rules, doctrines and dogmas instead of Jesus' way of life itself?

I've often wondered that myself.  jesus said if you want salvation you should sell your possessions and give to the poor; so why do christians always vote republican?  jesus said if you want to follow him you have to hate your family; so why are christians always so concerned about family values?

 

I could go on like this all day...

 

well, it's not in that sense though

what I mean is simply why just because she read the book called bible and called herself christian she is suddenly have the secret information/authority to say that others are wrong and I'm the right one, you never had the right understanding, you never had the real relationship, and other cliche excuses

 

 

The secret things belong to God but He reveals what He deems fit to reveal to His disciples (Deut. 29:29).

 

Did you hear about the Pastor who died from snake bites recently? He took texts out of context & that's what he got. The bible says that Satan comes as an angel of light & God's disciples ought to be able to spot counterfeits. Counterfeits tend to resemble the real thing, therefore one has to study the true and counteract the counterfeits.

 

 

 

That is not what Deut 29:29 says.  You took it out of context.  The actual verse says that the revealed things belong to the children of the Jews forever that the law of God may be followed.  If Deut 29:29 is true then there will never be a New Testament nor a salvation message nor Calvary.  There is no completion of the law.  The original covenant between God and the Jews was what matters and the rest of us have no place in that.

[Thumbelina]

Spreading "sunshine" and making friends whoever she goes.

Yeah, I know it's all gibberish to you, Par.

[Thumbelina]

Welcome back! Now go away.

Don't believe we've met. There's only one other person around here I call honey (it's a term of endearment for them) Thanks for the welcome, I'm going away again soon.

[Thumbelina]

 

The book of Revelation is full of wrath.

I know. Revelation was the last thing I studied at Moody. How is this relevant to the subject at hand? I mean, I explain that the described nature of your god is irrelevant to whether or not there is evidence for his existence and you trot out a book that also lacks credibility.

 

 

 

From your write-up, Pops:

"A large part of the Christian apologetics industry is focused on spinning the unchanging Old Testament deity's acts of cruelty into necessary actions done out of love and the need to move the plot along so we can get to the Jesus part."

 

Revelation is about Jesus & therefore Christianity. It talks about the wrath of the lamb. Again, the theme of God being a consuming fire; it's only for the rebellious that Jesus will be wrathful; believers see Him as a gentle little lamb.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

 

 

"Saying God doesn't exist is worse than criticizing Him. In essence, I'm

mitigating the offense"  Thumbelina

 

 

Is your god an egomaniac? If I don't believe in him after 45+years of good faith effort and if he is a good, forgiving god as you say, 

why doe he not make himself known to me? After all, most of my life I have tried to make myself known to him. How about some reciprocity?  bill

 

 

 

No He is not. Faith comes by hearing & hearing by the Word of God. In my debates with unbelievers I

observed that they have a wrong concept of God. They were taught that God is basically a tyrant; if

that was the type of God presented to me I won't believe in Him either. When I read the bible I see a

wonderful, merciful savior who loves us tremendously. Sorry you did not see or experience that.

 

I call bullshit.  I was taught that god was a loving and kind father.  I was taught that god so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son that whoever believed in him would not perish but have eternal life.  I was taught that god was merciful, patient, long-suffering, never envious, never jealous, always leaving the ninety-nine to go after the one. 

 

I heard, and I heard by the word of god.  I had more faith in my pinkie toe than most christians have in their entire body.

 

But like bill, when I needed god in my darkest hour of despair, he was not there.  That is when I finally learned the true nature of your god.  he wants the praise and adoration, but he doesn't want to put forth the effort to earn it.  If your god was all he's cracked up to be, this website would not exist.

 

Again, despite the people here having a place in your heart or whatever, you still don't understand a single one of them like you think you do.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry you believe that God has let you down. It's human nature to shut down or recoil from others who hurt us, whether real or imagined. I still do it to my Jesus when He doesn't answer my prayers the way I want them answered or when trials come but I realize that He's with me through it all. I tend to go back to Him & we resume our relationship. My best time with God has been through some of the toughest times I've had & He did not take away my trial, He comforted me through it. God wants me to trust Him, not for His own benefit but for mine; He's selfless.

 

 

 

 

 

Like you, I was taught about God & read about Him but it's experiential faith that's drawing me closer to Him. Now I can identify with the experiences of some of the hymn writers; the songs are just not pleasant music, I had the EXPERIENCE & it's wonderful.

Understanding how someone feels does not mean you have to agree with them. A woman wanting to kill her rapist is understandable but that does not mean I agree with her; I believe she should not take the law into her own hands.

 

I never said anything about god letting me down.  What I said was that I realized he was not there.  Your god cannot let anyone down because your god does not exist outside of your own imagination.  Are we clear now?

 

Also, before we go any further, you need to know that I will not respond to your blatant attempts at proselytizing.  I was raised in church, attended a christian school, went to a christian college.  I have heard every kind of "witness" there is.  You have nothing new to offer me, so cut it out.  It's just a waste of your time.

 

Lastly, if you were raped, you might agree with the woman in your example, so you should be so quick to speak to situations you've never been in before.

 

God is not there to you. He's there for me.

 

I'm not forcing myself on you

 

You approve of premeditated murder? I was covertly harassed for years by this married ogler & he got mad & spread a vicious rumor about me (but it backfired on him & God set it up, even sent me a possible angel twice to tell me the name of my detractor before I even knew his name). Are you saying I should disobey God & render evil for evil & spread lies about that guy?

[♦ ficino ♦]

ficino said: Welcome back, Thumb. I too was wondering where you'd gone. Chill... , F

 

 

 

Hello Mr. Civilized Lion. I did remember our previous discussion from that

time I was here. I'm no scholar & the Spirit of truth taught/teaches me what theWord says.

I'm sure you realize that your claim about your learning from the Spirit has zero credibility, but that's OK.

I do pray that you can have discernment about the Word one day & you can se that you are loved.

Thanks for the generous part of your sentiment, Thumb. I don't know whether you realize how tendentious it also is. I know love from receiving it from, and giving it to, the people (and animals!) close to me. They are real. We are loyal to each other and stand by each other. That proves love every day. Your comment kind of insinuates that the love of the people in my life isn't real love, or something like that, or that I haven't experienced love. You don't know me. Your assumptions are almost offensive, though I don't think you mean to be.

[Thumbelina]

No hell? Well, maybe god won't believe in Thumbelina because she has not believed the Word of God.    That is the same kind of thinking that she uses to condemn all of us.  bill

 

Dude, are your peepers tired? I didn't say no hell, I said no ETERNAL hell, m'kay?

[Thumbelina]

 

ficino said: Welcome back, Thumb. I too was wondering where you'd gone. Chill... , F

 

 

 

Hello Mr. Civilized Lion. I did remember our previous discussion from that

time I was here. I'm no scholar & the Spirit of truth taught/teaches me what theWord says.

I'm sure you realize that your claim about your learning from the Spirit has zero credibility, but that's OK.

I do pray that you can have discernment about the Word one day & you can se that you are loved.

Thanks for the generous part of your sentiment, Thumb. I don't know whether you realize how tendentious it also is. I know love from receiving it from, and giving it to, the people (and animals!) close to me. They are real. We are loyal to each other and stand by each other. That proves love every day. Your comment kind of insinuates that the love of the people in my life isn't real love, or something like that, or that I haven't experienced love. You don't know me. Your assumptions are almost offensive, though I don't think you mean to be.

 

 

Awwww, I meant that God loves you even though you don't believe in Him. I didn't mean to offend you.

[Thumbelina]

Gotta go, maybe I might stop by next week. I can't promise though.