God's Critics Helped Me Out

[thereisnoperfect]

Since you asked, my username is complete as written: there is no perfect, anything. Perfection is an artificial concept we have dreamed up, not an actual thing that exists. Humans never were perfect and never could become perfect. This is part of why I realized that conventional Christian teachings cannot be correct: even if somehow we have another life after this one, we cannot become perfect without being made into a completely different thing than what we are now.

 

Further, that concept of perfect is extremely harmful to people who think they are somehow supposed to measure up to it. Many of those people are Christians, driven either by the poor translation "be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly father is perfect" or by the more general concept of God as the perfect judge who counts everything short of perfection as failure.

 

And that's just a nasty piece of business, there. Why should humans be able to love their children in spite of their many failures--heck, sometimes even because of their imperfections, but god finds any imperfection justification for destruction? (Unless, of course, you...um, well, depends who you ask, but either believe the right thing or belong to the right church or do certain stuff or something or other--the Christians can't all seem to agree, and the Islamic folks have a whole different set of answers.)

 

And not that you will try to understand it but: I don't hate your scripture--I just have good reason to think it is not a reliable communication from god. I don't hate god, nor am I rebelling against god--just can't penetrate the cloud of unknowability enough to have any relationship with that probably-not-really-there-and-definitely-absent-even-if-real being.

[francesco]

 

 

The secret things belong to God but He reveals what He deems fit to reveal to His disciples (Deut. 29:29).

 

Did you hear about the Pastor who died from snake bites recently? He took texts out of context & that's what he got. The bible says that Satan comes as an angel of light & God's disciples ought to be able to spot counterfeits. Counterfeits tend to resemble the real thing, therefore one has to study the true and counteract the counterfeits.

 

well, you can say that now but which acts/doctrines are out of context and according to whom?

in christian forum, catholic and protestant are constantly having doctrinal wars, one protestant denomination constantly attacking other denomination's doctrines? and all based on their own interpretation of bible

which one is the right one to you?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

I don't know thumb since I'm quiet new here

but if I may ask you one question

why it seems like christian's core of faith are the book called bible and the list of rules, doctrines and dogmas instead of Jesus' way of life itself?

I've often wondered that myself.  jesus said if you want salvation you should sell your possessions and give to the poor; so why do christians always vote republican?  jesus said if you want to follow him you have to hate your family; so why are christians always so concerned about family values?

 

I could go on like this all day...

 

 

 

Text without context is a pretext.

 

Oh how I have missed christianese sound bytes.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

"No He is not. Faith comes by hearing & hearing by the Word of God." Thumbelina

 

Damn. If I had just read the bible during all that time god would have heard me  Oh wait. I did.   bill

 

 

The devils read the bible & they know it better than us (James 2:19). I'm not minimizing your experience, OK, I'm just refuting your logic based on what the bible says.

 

Yes, fairy tales trump sound logic every time.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

 

I don't know thumb since I'm quiet new here

but if I may ask you one question

why it seems like christian's core of faith are the book called bible and the list of rules, doctrines and dogmas instead of Jesus' way of life itself?

I've often wondered that myself.  jesus said if you want salvation you should sell your possessions and give to the poor; so why do christians always vote republican?  jesus said if you want to follow him you have to hate your family; so why are christians always so concerned about family values?

 

I could go on like this all day...

 

well, it's not in that sense though

what I mean is simply why just because she read the book called bible and called herself christian she is suddenly have the secret information/authority to say that others are wrong and I'm the right one, you never had the right understanding, you never had the real relationship, and other cliche excuses

 

 

The secret things belong to God but He reveals what He deems fit to reveal to His disciples (Deut. 29:29).

 

Did you hear about the Pastor who died from snake bites recently? He took texts out of context & that's what he got. The bible says that Satan comes as an angel of light & God's disciples ought to be able to spot counterfeits. Counterfeits tend to resemble the real thing, therefore one has to study the true and counteract the counterfeits.

 

So then, why are his "disciples" divided into 41,000 different denominations?  Is it because he is "revealing" different things to them all?  Why can't god just make up his mind and give us one True Revelation^TM?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

 

 

 

"Saying God doesn't exist is worse than criticizing Him. In essence, I'm

mitigating the offense"  Thumbelina

 

 

Is your god an egomaniac? If I don't believe in him after 45+years of good faith effort and if he is a good, forgiving god as you say, 

why doe he not make himself known to me? After all, most of my life I have tried to make myself known to him. How about some reciprocity?  bill

 

 

 

No He is not. Faith comes by hearing & hearing by the Word of God. In my debates with unbelievers I

observed that they have a wrong concept of God. They were taught that God is basically a tyrant; if

that was the type of God presented to me I won't believe in Him either. When I read the bible I see a

wonderful, merciful savior who loves us tremendously. Sorry you did not see or experience that.

 

I call bullshit.  I was taught that god was a loving and kind father.  I was taught that god so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son that whoever believed in him would not perish but have eternal life.  I was taught that god was merciful, patient, long-suffering, never envious, never jealous, always leaving the ninety-nine to go after the one. 

 

I heard, and I heard by the word of god.  I had more faith in my pinkie toe than most christians have in their entire body.

 

But like bill, when I needed god in my darkest hour of despair, he was not there.  That is when I finally learned the true nature of your god.  he wants the praise and adoration, but he doesn't want to put forth the effort to earn it.  If your god was all he's cracked up to be, this website would not exist.

 

Again, despite the people here having a place in your heart or whatever, you still don't understand a single one of them like you think you do.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry you believe that God has let you down. It's human nature to shut down or recoil from others who hurt us, whether real or imagined. I still do it to my Jesus when He doesn't answer my prayers the way I want them answered or when trials come but I realize that He's with me through it all. I tend to go back to Him & we resume our relationship. My best time with God has been through some of the toughest times I've had & He did not take away my trial, He comforted me through it. God wants me to trust Him, not for His own benefit but for mine; He's selfless.

 

 

 

 

 

Like you, I was taught about God & read about Him but it's experiential faith that's drawing me closer to Him. Now I can identify with the experiences of some of the hymn writers; the songs are just not pleasant music, I had the EXPERIENCE & it's wonderful.

Understanding how someone feels does not mean you have to agree with them. A woman wanting to kill her rapist is understandable but that does not mean I agree with her; I believe she should not take the law into her own hands.

 

I never said anything about god letting me down.  What I said was that I realized he was not there.  Your god cannot let anyone down because your god does not exist outside of your own imagination.  Are we clear now?

 

Also, before we go any further, you need to know that I will not respond to your blatant attempts at proselytizing.  I was raised in church, attended a christian school, went to a christian college.  I have heard every kind of "witness" there is.  You have nothing new to offer me, so cut it out.  It's just a waste of your time.

 

Lastly, if you were raped, you might agree with the woman in your example, so you should be so quick to speak to situations you've never been in before.

 

God is not there to you. He's there for me.

 

I'm not forcing myself on you

 

You approve of premeditated murder? I was covertly harassed for years by this married ogler & he got mad & spread a vicious rumor about me (but it backfired on him & God set it up, even sent me a possible angel twice to tell me the name of my detractor before I even knew his name). Are you saying I should disobey God & render evil for evil & spread lies about that guy?

 

So now that god has delivered you from this married ogler, is he going to get back to feeding the starving children of this world?  Or is he too busy allowing little girls to be sold into sexual slavery to produce a decent meal?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Gotta go, maybe I might stop by next week. I can't promise though.

That's what jesus said... two thousand years ago.

[mymistake]

 

 

So then, why are his "disciples" divided into 41,000 different denominations?  Is it because he is "revealing" different things to them all?  Why can't god just make up his mind and give us one True Revelation^TM?

 

 

 

Because Satan is so much stronger than God that Satan deceived 40,999 of those Christian denominations.  But lucky for us we have been blessed with the presence of a representative from the one denomination Satan couldn't fool.

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

 

So then, why are his "disciples" divided into 41,000 different denominations?  Is it because he is "revealing" different things to them all?  Why can't god just make up his mind and give us one True Revelation^TM?

 

 

 

Because Satan is so much stronger than God that Satan deceived 40,999 of those Christian denominations.  But lucky for us we have been blessed with the presence of a representative from the one denomination Satan couldn't fool.

 

 

That's not going to make funguyrye very happy; he's from a different denomination than thumperina.  That means he's one of the deceived ones.

[mymistake]

 

 

 

 

So then, why are his "disciples" divided into 41,000 different denominations?  Is it because he is "revealing" different things to them all?  Why can't god just make up his mind and give us one True Revelation^TM?

 

 

 

Because Satan is so much stronger than God that Satan deceived 40,999 of those Christian denominations.  But lucky for us we have been blessed with the presence of a representative from the one denomination Satan couldn't fool.

 

 

That's not going to make funguyrye very happy; he's from a different denomination than thumperina.  That means he's one of the deceived ones.

 

 

 

I wouldn't worry about him anymore.

[milesaway]

^Looks like he's gone.

 

[xtify]

God is not there to you. He's there for me.

 

 

That's so bitchy.  So, you're just here to gloat then? 

 

 

 

You approve of premeditated murder? I was covertly harassed for years by this married ogler & he got mad & spread a vicious rumor about me (but it backfired on him & God set it up, even sent me a possible angel twice to tell me the name of my detractor before I even knew his name). Are you saying I should disobey God & render evil for evil & spread lies about that guy?

 

You sound like a delusional, paranoid narcisist.  Good luck with all that.  Buhbye.

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

 

ficino said: Welcome back, Thumb. I too was wondering where you'd gone. Chill... , F

 

 

 

Hello Mr. Civilized Lion. I did remember our previous discussion from that

time I was here. I'm no scholar & the Spirit of truth taught/teaches me what theWord says.

I'm sure you realize that your claim about your learning from the Spirit has zero credibility, but that's OK.

I do pray that you can have discernment about the Word one day & you can se that you are loved.

Thanks for the generous part of your sentiment, Thumb. I don't know whether you realize how tendentious it also is. I know love from receiving it from, and giving it to, the people (and animals!) close to me. They are real. We are loyal to each other and stand by each other. That proves love every day. Your comment kind of insinuates that the love of the people in my life isn't real love, or something like that, or that I haven't experienced love. You don't know me. Your assumptions are almost offensive, though I don't think you mean to be.

 

Awwww, I meant that God loves you even though you don't believe in Him. I didn't mean to offend you.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

My emotions were affected only in the least. My answer was on principle. If you don't subscribe to the views I was taught, that's great, but as a Christian (both Prot and after I became Catholic) I often heard people say that unbelievers don't really experience love. We all know that creatures can let us down, and we know that we let our loved ones down (You only Hurt the One You Love...). Yet, flaws don't make our love in this body of flesh unreal or fake.

 

Christians, sadly, ignore the love that is real and console themselves with an imaginary lover. And then the tragedy is, of all characters, they pick Bible God???!!!

[RipVanWinkle]

"I'm sorry you believe that God has let you down." Thubelina

 

There you go again. We just got through telling you that we are not critical of god, but of the people who propagate the myth. Yet here you are saying that we believe god let us down. No we don't. we believe preachers, evangelists and the like let us down by misrepresenting the the bible as well as many other things involving faith.  Do you get it this time?   bill

[sdelsolray]

 

Eh, make up your minds. Atheistic arguments are that Christians are taught that they are sinful & evil & basically nothing. Now you're saying they're grandiose & narcissistic? So which is it, huh?

 

Learn to read,  I said "in some cases", your case being one example.  Also, please try to disguise your strawman arguments better.  Yours are so obvious and boring.   

[par4dcourse]

 

 

Gotta go, maybe I might stop by next week. I can't promise though.

 

That's what jesus said... two thousand years ago.

Bwaaaahaahaaa!!

[mymistake]

"I'm sorry you believe that God has let you down." Thubelina

 

There you go again. We just got through telling you that we are not critical of god, but of the people who propagate the myth. Yet here you are saying that we believe god let us down. No we don't. we believe preachers, evangelists and the like let us down by misrepresenting the the bible as well as many other things involving faith.  Do you get it this time?   bill

 

 

I see you are getting to know Thumbelina.  

 

It really doesn't get any better.

[midniterider]

 

 

 

 

Jesus wants to enter your lion's heart & turn it into a sheep's heart

 

 

Jesus wants to enter your lion's heart and turn you into a wuss.

[midniterider]

 

 

 

Hello midnite. I get hugs? Thanks for showing some love. The almighty showed up in the OT & in the NT in human form & some folks still rebelled. It's really about understanding God's law which shows His character & people who have perpetual listening hearts will see how selfless & loving He is.

 

 

It's really about pretending God exists when he fails to show himself in person. If that's good enough for you, then I'm happy for you. It's sad that Christians settle for so little from their almighty God that supposedly could do great things, but never does. When a non-Christian asks a Christian to have his/her God do something spectacular, the Christian, knowing in his/her heart that that just wont happen says something like, "God wants people with perpetual listening hearts."

 

:-) Perpetually listening....for something that never happens.

 

And yes, hugs. :-)

[midniterider]

 

 

Saying God doesn't exist is worse than criticizing Him. In essence, I'm

mitigating the offense

 

Hi Thumbelina

 

To be honest, reading through your posts you sound kinda naive and ignorant or a just not too intelligent. Just my impression. You seem to be nice though and well intended.

 

Now I would say, if God exists and he is this great and loving personality, he would be totally fine with people not believing in his existence and see it as a challenge to show he was real to them. Also if like the bible says Jesus is God just think of how God and Jesus are portrayed in the bible. Like the Lion of Judah for example. Well, nowadays a lion needs protection but that's another topic...but back then when the bible was written, a lion was a strong animal that was able to protect it self, no human needed to do so. I think there is no need to mitigating any offense against God. If he does exist  he can take it and if he doesn't exist there is no point in that anyways.

 

Now if you have become less sensitive I assume you mean you don't get offended by others having a different opinion. Thats a good thing if it means, you also are able to read other people's opinions and let your thinking be challenged by them. Not that you have to agree or anything, but just to be open and not jump into self defense mode. When it means you can let go of your pre modeled conclusions and be open to learn for yourself as well, not only in being less sensitive. So far you have not given proof to that but I welcome you to do so.

 

 

 

 

You sound like BAA. My defending God is not for His benefit; there is nothing too hard for Him (Jer. 32:27). It's for the benefit of crazy lemmings/sheep who've jumped off cliffs/gone astray & who won't listen to the promptings of the HS. Former lemmings gotta tell them "taste & see that the Lord is good." I've not been offended by others having different opinions; it's the ad hominems (I saw yours btw) that I'm learning to ignore I fell down in public during the summer & didn't feel too ashamed so I'm growing; thanks to putting myself in a lions den with naughty lions which desensitized me.

 

 

If we wont listen to the HS why would we listen to you, really?

[mydisplayname]

 

 

No He is not. Faith comes by hearing & hearing by the Word of God. In my debates with unbelievers I

observed that they have a wrong concept of God. They were taught that God is basically a tyrant; if

that was the type of God presented to me I won't believe in Him either. When I read the bible I see a

wonderful, merciful savior who loves us tremendously. Sorry you did not see or experience that.

 

STOP TELLING MEN WHAT TO DO!

 

 

God said you must be quiet and listen to what we as men have to say. Why won't you listen to god? He's very clear in his instruction to you.

"A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet" - 1 Timothy

 

Are you wearing a veil? Why not? Why won't you listen to god?

For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil. For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.  - 1 Corinthians 11

 

Jesus didn't even want a women to touch him. (John 20:17) 

"Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father,"

(A few verses on Jesus is ok with Thomas touching him though. Now that I think about it Jesus also never mentioned homosexuality ever and never showed any interest in women. Makes you wonder.)

 

There were no female disciples and there are no books in the bible written by women. It seems like god doesn't like your gender very much.

 

Time to look at the facts. You're making baby Jesus cry by acting like a man and believe me, he is not someone you should piss off. He'll hand you over to that other guy, his nemesis if you don't start acting like a godly women ought to act.

 

-

edit just to say if my fundie wife sees this she's going to kick my ass. She also refuses to listen to god's instruction.

 

Heh Heh, why did you start off your post by yelling? I'm not intruding on you. Your texts are taken out of context & I'm not going there; I did it too many times already & it was of no avail. Btw Jesus did have female disciples & one of them sat at His feet while her sister complained but enough of that; I don't want any wearisome contention.

 

 

AH, the classic out of context. Nice easy way to not have to deal with this pieces of scripture. I would ask what the context then is, but you clearly said you're not going there. Nice.

 

My apologist dad says that because women used to sit in the back of the church and men in the front that women couldn't hear in the back. Apparently that's why Jesus said that if the women can just stop talking in the back then they will be able to hear. I used to agree, but reading this post deconversion I no longer agree.

 

If you're not going to debate then what the hell are you doing here?

[bornagainathiest]

See what I mean, folks?

 

All of you are wrong and Thumbelina is right.

ALL of you. The RedNeckProf, MyMistake, Mudhoney, Sdelsolray, Faceahem, xtify, Thereisnoperfect, Ficino, Bill, Par4, Midnite, Adam5, Duderonomy, CrazyGuy, Florduh, Buffetphan, Bhim, Fransesco, Thackerie and anyone else who isn't Thumbelina. (Including me.) 

 

You were all taught wrong.  But Thumbelina will teach you the right way. 

(No! No! No! It's no good saying that you were taught in the right way.  That fact that you don't agree with Thumbelina, just proves that you were taught in the wrong way.  If you were taught in the right way, you'd still believe and be true Christians - just like Thumbelina.  Case closed.)

 

You all read the Bible wrong. 

But, Thumbelina will tell you how to do it the right way.  You all misunderstand - but Thumbelina will tell you what to understand and this will be right.  All your thinking about God is wrong - but Thumbelina will tell you what to think and that will be right.  Your beliefs about Jesus and the Bible are all wrong - but Thumbelina will tell you what to believe and that will be right. Whatever you see scripture say, is all wrong - but Thumbelina will tell you what it really says and that will be right.   Whatever you think scripture means, is all wrong - but Thumbelina will tell you what it really means and that will be right.  No matter how long it takes and no matter how long this thread runs and runs and runs, Thumbelina will keep on teaching, correcting, instructing and telling you off until you accept that she's right.

.

.

.

But she isn't forcing herself upon us!

Telling us what to believe, what to think, what to understand and how to read the bible... isn't ...forcing herself on us. 

.

.

.

This is love.

 

 

[bornagainathiest]

Can anyone help me with scripture, please?

 

I'm trying to find where in the gospels it mentions Jesus seeking out people to evangelize to them.  Anyone know?

Where in the gospels it mentions Jesus entering into peoples homes to evangelize to the people there?

Where in the gospels it mentions Jesus taking the initiative, rather than people coming to listen to him?

 

(No.  Instances where the Pharisees or Sadducees or Priests asked him questions are where they took the initiative and he responded.  You'll note that when he answered their questions, he did so only once and then didn't go on and on and on at them, because they didn't agree with his answer.)

 

Where in the gospels it mentions Jesus claiming that because he's free to evangelize somewhere, he should do so?

Where in the gospels it mentions Jesus claiming that because he's free to evangelize to someone, he should do so?

 

Anyone help me out here?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

 

[♦ ficino ♦]

Jesus is portrayed as seeking out the members of the Twelve. Then he sends his disciples out into the cities and countryside to "compel them to come in..." He strikes up a conversation with the woman at the well in John. I can't think of more.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

All I can think of, BAA, is the verse in Revelations that says, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock."  But that was more metaphorical, I thought.