God Is Good. All The Time......all The Time. God Is Good.

[duderonomy]

Whatever E3 says next, remind him that there is a difference between knowing what looks good to eat and knowing the difference between good and evil.

 

Eve did have some abilities. Maybe lots of abilities. But she didn't have the knowledge of good and evil before she ate the fruit, and neither did her husband. 

[mymistake]

I see the word salad is excellent tonight.

[Guest end3]

Chamad

 

I.to desire, covet, take pleasure in, delight in

 

She desired, coveted, took pleasure in, or delighted in that the tree would make her wise. I see that as synonymous to new car fever...i.e. "jonesing".

 

I agree that I don't think she had discernment. But her coveting comes AFTER the serpent describes her options.

[mymistake]

Chamad

 

I.to desire, covet, take pleasure in, delight in

 

She desired, coveted, took pleasure in, or delighted in that the tree would make her wise. I see that as synonymous to new car fever...i.e. "jonesing".

 

 

Yes.  When there were no other women on the entire planet ( and no cars yet invented ) Eve was obviously 

 

trying to keep up with the Jonses.

 

 

 

More brilliance from Mr. "I could logic if I wanted to but I just don't want to".

 

[duderonomy]

Chamad

 

I.to desire, covet, take pleasure in, delight in

 

She desired, coveted, took pleasure in, or delighted in that the tree would make her wise. I see that as synonymous to new car fever...i.e. "jonesing".

 

I agree that I don't think she had discernment. But her coveting comes AFTER the serpent describes her options.

 

Whatever E3 says next, remind him that there is a difference between knowing what looks good to eat and knowing the difference between good and evil.

 

Eve did have some abilities. Maybe lots of abilities. But she didn't have the knowledge of good and evil before she ate the fruit, and neither did her husband. 

 

Also remind him that according his own idea of the Bible, sin entered the world through Eve, who coveted before the law was given that said you shall not covet. 

[Guest end3]

Seems apparent that if God had made them equals there would be no need for giving them instruction. Also, it seems

in that, Eve was capable of being tempted regardless of whether she knew it was sinful.....a quality of "image".

 

I don't know that this negated her choice.

[mymistake]

Seems apparent that if God had made them equals there would be no need for giving them instruction. Also, it seems

in that, Eve was capable of being tempted regardless of whether she knew it was sinful.....a quality of "image".

 

 

*pours thousand island dressing, sprinkles with bacon bits and parmesan cheese*

 

 

Very nice!

[Guest end3]

 

Seems apparent that if God had made them equals there would be no need for giving them instruction. Also, it seems

in that, Eve was capable of being tempted regardless of whether she knew it was sinful.....a quality of "image".

 

 

*pours thousand island dressing, sprinkles with bacon bits and parmesan cheese*

 

 

Very nice!

 

I was thinking pesto-like..

[Guest sylensikeelyoo]

 

 

Here's my explanation of fundamental atheist so you may know "my" definition. When something starts to work for us, a belief let's say, then whatever anyone tells us at that point is gospel because it's what coincides with our experience of life getting better. For instance, if I am attending a legalistic church at the time of my conversion, then by God, legalism is gospel. I will be careful in suspecting you are in that boat only with disbelief. I will hold my label slapping because you caught me(lol), but you present evidence of such without me knowing you.

 

 

My ideas are constantly changing and evolving. I read ALOT. I take NOTHING as gospel truth until I verify the information for myself. If I thought one thing was true, and then I was presented with new evidence that tears down my previous belief, I re evaluate my position and go from there. That is "skepticism". I try to stay away from fundamental dogma of any particular set of beliefs, no matter what it is. But ATHEISM is just a lack of belief in a deity. It can NOT, by definition, be fundamental, as it is not a belief system or world view. Now, skepticism is a world view but im not sure that there could be fundamentalists,  Its not really a religion and as far as i know there aren't any rules governing skeptics, so there cant really be "fundamentalist skeptics. But I digress. Just because Im in an online support group with people in a similar situation as I and I happen to agree with many people on many things, I don't think that makes me a fundamentalist of any sort. We all have this need for acceptance and belonging. we find common ground with people who have the same needs, and we band together on this website and we share ideas and support one another....but its not like we are telling each other what to think, like some sort of inverted church or whatever.

 

 

 The "take home" message for me is until science gives me an understanding of what our brains do, then I'm not going to jump ship....nor am I really compelled to do so anyhow.

 

 

The argument: "I lack understanding  of science, therefore, GOD" is not enough to compel me to stay on board of such a ridiculous ship, but that's just me.

 

 

 

Enough about me...what's your story S.

 

my story is kinda long. If you are curious of about my story, mine is up on the main blog. I'm American Apostate on there. should be one of the recent stories up there at the moment.  

[Guest sylensikeelyoo]

 

Chamad

 

I.to desire, covet, take pleasure in, delight in

 

She desired, coveted, took pleasure in, or delighted in that the tree would make her wise. I see that as synonymous to new car fever...i.e. "jonesing".

 

I agree that I don't think she had discernment. But her coveting comes AFTER the serpent describes her options.

 

Whatever E3 says next, remind him that there is a difference between knowing what looks good to eat and knowing the difference between good and evil.

 

Eve did have some abilities. Maybe lots of abilities. But she didn't have the knowledge of good and evil before she ate the fruit, and neither did her husband. 

 

Also remind him that according his own idea of the Bible, sin entered the world through Eve, who coveted before the law was given that said you shall not covet. 

 

 

  ^^^^^this. that is all. 

 

 

im waaayyyy out of upvotes, but id throw all ten of my daily upvotes on this comment here.

[mymistake]

 

 

 

Also remind him that according his own idea of the Bible, sin entered the world through Eve, who coveted before the law was given that said you shall not covet. 

 

 

  ^^^^^this. that is all. 

 

 

im waaayyyy out of upvotes, but id throw all ten of my daily upvotes on this comment here.

 

 

 

Yes, very much so.  Genesis it a myth any way you cut it.  It's just absurd.  A few chapters before that

 

Genesis was telling us that there were evenings and mornings before God created the sun.  And bats

 

are birds?  Eve coveting before the law had even been given is simply a retelling of the Greek myth of

 

Pandora.  The Hebrews couldn't even come up with their own original stories.  They had to steal ideas

 

from superior cultures.

[bornagainathiest]

Hey sylens!

 

Since End's not talking to me, can you get him to commit one way or the other one that Hebrew word, Chamad.

 

Is he reading Chamad literally, as Jesus would have?

With a literal Genesis narrative going against logic and reason and all the scientific, cultural and historical evidence?

 

Or is he reading Chamad metaphorically, against the intent of Jesus?

With A & E, the Tree, the Snake and sin all being metaphors and Jesus' sacrifice on the cross being a metaphorical too?

 

If he refuses to commit, then that's exactly what you described....Cognitive dissonance. 

He's (dishonestly) separating two conflicting realities and trying to live in both. 

His reasoning mind is at war with his unreasoning faith.

.

.

.

So will you ask him to commit please?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

[Guest sylensikeelyoo]

Hey sylens!

 

Since End's not talking to me, can you get him to commit one way or the other one that Hebrew word, Chamad.

 

Is he reading Chamad literally, as Jesus would have?

With a literal Genesis narrative going against logic and reason and all the scientific, cultural and historical evidence?

 

Or is he reading Chamad metaphorically, against the intent of Jesus?

With A & E, the Tree, the Snake and sin all being metaphors and Jesus' sacrifice on the cross being a metaphorical too?

 

If he refuses to commit, then that's exactly what you described....Cognitive dissonance. 

He's (dishonestly) separating two conflicting realities and trying to live in both. 

His reasoning mind is at war with his unreasoning faith.

.

.

.

So will you ask him to commit please?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

Actually, this is a VERY good question, Atheist. I think this does need to be addressed next, E3, or else he's absolutely right. This is another nail in the coffin for your cognitive dissonance. You can't live in two realities, so you are shutting off one to reconcile the other. This is certainly the case of you can't answer Atheist's question here correctly.

[ConscientiousObjector]

Wow. The replies to this thread are absolutely brilliant! Every time I think of a question or rebuttal for end, someone beats me to the punch, and does so more eloquently than I could ever dream. I'm starting to feel somewhat intellecually intimidated by you guys, yet enjoying every minute of it. This site is awesome! Could we contact webmdave and vote for more votes? After reading all this, even 50 upvotes would be insufficient.

[mymistake]

Could we contact webmdave and vote for more votes? After reading all this, even 50 upvotes would be insufficient.

 

I have heard that patrons get more upvotes.  Ask a moderator for details.  Being a patron isn't that expensive.

 

You can read more about being a patron by clicking the "Upgrade!" button at the top of your screen.

[yunea]

What a thought-provoking thread! Great OP and the conversation that has followed is very good, I suggest this to be a pinned topic.

[ConscientiousObjector]

Thanks, mymistake! Too bad I'm so broke right now, I'd need to put a single french fry on lay-away. Medical bills are kicking my ass at the moment, why don't hospitals offer 2 for the price of one deals for twins? Arrg, kids are expensive!

 

Oops, just noticed I misspelled intellectually, my phones spell check doesn't work for this site.

[Guest Furball]

 

 

We 'should' know good from evil. So why is this a sin? Oh right, god's arbitrary decision.

 

 

 

Exactly!  Sin is defined as whatever God hates.  If God is cool with a husband raping his wife then it isn't a 

 

sin.  And if God hates it when you work on Saturday then working of Saturday deserved death until God 

 

changed his mind.  And if God hates it when you ignore God's gospel message then ignoring the message

 

is a sin.

 

 

Lets not forget picking up a few sticks on the sabbath. 

 

Rape women? No problem!

 

Murder men, women,children, and pregnant women? No problem!

 

Pick up some twigs on the sabbath? You really crossed the line there buddy boy! Stone the stick picker upper!

[midniterider]

Chamad

 

I.to desire, covet, take pleasure in, delight in

 

She desired, coveted, took pleasure in, or delighted in that the tree would make her wise. I see that as synonymous to new car fever...i.e. "jonesing".

 

I agree that I don't think she had discernment. But her coveting comes AFTER the serpent describes her options.

 

Do you chamad Jesus? 

[Guest end3]

Busy day...but looking at Jesus, we can see Jesus being tempted. Jesus being the human image of God, we may assume that humans were capable of being tempted in the Garden. So it appears that Eve had the innate quality of being tempted.

[ConscientiousObjector]

End, your replies still have no bearing on the ops main point: god set them up to fail, and therefore is NOT the omnipotent, loving father we are led to beleive. Game over.

[duderonomy]

Busy day...but looking at Jesus, we can see Jesus being tempted. Jesus being the human image of God, we may assume that humans were capable of being tempted in the Garden. So it appears that Eve had the innate quality of being tempted.

E3, please quit being so slippery and slimy.  Have you enrolled in the Ironhorse School of Apologetics or something? 

Answer BAA's question in #112.  

 

Then we can get back to Eve. Not that Eve really matters anyway, because your Bible actually says sin entered the world through Adam. If you'd quit subjectively pondering what you think it all means and actually read your Bible as it is-not as you want it to be or how you've been told it is-you might learn something.  

Really, I encourage you to study the Bible for yourself and on your own.  It's a real eye opener. 

[Guest end3]

 

Busy day...but looking at Jesus, we can see Jesus being tempted. Jesus being the human image of God, we may assume that humans were capable of being tempted in the Garden. So it appears that Eve had the innate quality of being tempted.

E3, please quit being so slippery and slimy.  Have you enrolled in the Ironhorse School of Apologetics or something? 

Answer BAA's question in #112.  

 

Then we can get back to Eve. Not that Eve really matters anyway, because your Bible actually says sin entered the world through Adam. If you'd quit subjectively pondering what you think it all means and actually read your Bible as it is-not as you want it to be or how you've been told it is-you might learn something.  

Really, I encourage you to study the Bible for yourself and on your own.  It's a real eye opener.

 

Just trying to answer the questions.

 

Eve and Jesus speak to whether God may be tempted. If God may be tempted and choose good over evil, then Eve had the power to choose as well. We are currently working on Eve's qualities because of Y'ALLS questions. Since you have looked at the Bible more frequently than I have here lately, I invite you to provide the verses that say God may not be tempted.

 

And after this, we may talk about God's subject take on "good" vs. ours.

 

Going to be gone for most of the rest of the day....carry on.

[mwc]

     Was Eve acting out of line?

 

     Genesis 2

     ⁹ The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

 

     Genesis 3

     ⁶ When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

 

     Hmmm.  The only thing that's added in the latter verse is "desirable for gaining wisdom" but otherwise it seems nothing new is going on with Eve that wasn't going on before the old serpent showed up on the scene.  Actually before anyone showed up on the scene.  Somehow the person who wrote this knew the trees were pleasing to the eye having never witnessed a thing since Adam gets placed in the garden after v2:9 so it makes what is said in v3:6 a tad suspect (in that this would be the author projecting not something we might expect of Eve).  Anyhow we can remove "good for food" and "pleasing to the eye" as unique to Eve.  These are just how things were.

 

     So now it's more like "When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was ... desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it" or perhaps "When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was no different from the other trees of the garden, in that it was pleasing to the eye and good for food, and was also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it."

 

     A tad wordy but I wanted to get the point across.  Now Eve doesn't look like someone who was tempted into doing some horrible deed.  She looks like someone, who given new information, decided to make the logical choice.  Here was a fruit that was no different than all the rest, except, it offered wisdom/insight as a bonus.

 

     There are two identical people.  One says if you eat this you will die.  The other says eat this and you will gain wisdom.  That's it.  Because you don't have the ability, yet, to know good from bad and vice-versa.  So you can choose to never eat out of fear of death (something you probably also don't know/understand given the situation).  Or  you eat the fruit to become like your friend god.  Adam and Eve would have no reason to not want to become like their good friend god (or even their new friend serpent for that matter) and if eating the fruit allowed that then why not?  It's god that apparently did not want them to become like him (even though we're told we should be like god all the time).

 

     There is no being tempted to choose good over evil here.  They didn't have that ability yet.  They weren't even choosing good or evil at this point.  They were choosing life/ignorance or death/wisdom.  They were choosing to be like their supposed friend god or remain the same.  That's all.  If you believe that good=life/ignorance/human-like and evil=death/wisdom/god-like then that is the choice that they made but they couldn't make that choice until after they ate the fruit as they gained the ability to know good and evil in that sense at that point in time.

 

          mwc

[mymistake]

 If God may be tempted and choose good over evil, then Eve had the power to choose as well. 

 

 

 

That does not follow.  Try logic.  Besides, in the crazy Christian world view evil is whatever God decides

 

evil will be.  Eve can't know what God chose as good and evil if God keeps it a secret.