God Is Good. All The Time......all The Time. God Is Good.

[bornagainathiest]

 

.

.

End3 is wrong to suppose that innate goodness automatically leads to obedience of the good.

This lack of wisdom and knowledge actually leads to a child-like innocence, which is a crippling inability to tell good from evil, by seeing everything as good.  And child-like innocence is no basis on which to decide who to trust and who to believe.  That decision requires knowledge of what you are deciding between - knowledge which child-like innocents do not have.

 

So, I repeat my point.

 

Innate goodness does not automatically lead to obedience of that which is good.

Innate goodness can also lead to obedience of that which is evil.

Because innocence cannot tell the two apart.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

Thank you BAA. Very well said!   I can't help but think that if End3 is ignorant about the truth in this, it's willful ignorance.

 

 

Thanks Dude, but all I've done here is apply a little logic to the scenario.

 

You could turn what I've written around 180^o and it'd still work.

If god had made Adam and Eve innately evil, they still would have lacked the wisdom to tell good from evil.  To them everything and everyone would be evil.  So they'd be just as crippled when it came to deciding who to believe about that forbidden tree - god or Satan.  They'd simply believe that both parties were evil and were telling them lies.  

 

Which would leave them in exactly the same predicament as End3's innately good Adam and Eve.  

Neither A & E would be any closer to being able to decide, because both pairs lacked the knowledge of the difference between good and evil.  Being innately good or innately evil is an equal handicap.  Neither automatically leads to obedience of either.  Only knowledge of the difference between good and evil leads to the true ability to decide between the two.  

 

That's why the Eden narrative isn't about obedience, as End thinks it is, it's about knowledge.

 

Or rather, about god withholding knowledge from his children and then punishing them for wanting this knowledge.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Guest end3]

 

 

.

.

End3 is wrong to suppose that innate goodness automatically leads to obedience of the good.

This lack of wisdom and knowledge actually leads to a child-like innocence, which is a crippling inability to tell good from evil, by seeing everything as good.  And child-like innocence is no basis on which to decide who to trust and who to believe.  That decision requires knowledge of what you are deciding between - knowledge which child-like innocents do not have.

 

So, I repeat my point.

 

Innate goodness does not automatically lead to obedience of that which is good.

Innate goodness can also lead to obedience of that which is evil.

Because innocence cannot tell the two apart.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

Thank you BAA. Very well said!   I can't help but think that if End3 is ignorant about the truth in this, it's willful ignorance.

 

 

Thanks Dude, but all I've done here is apply a little logic to the scenario.

 

You could turn what I've written around 180^o and it'd still work.

If god had made Adam and Eve innately evil, they still would have lacked the wisdom to tell good from evil.  To them everything and everyone would be evil.  So they'd be just as crippled when it came to deciding who to believe about that forbidden tree - god or Satan.  They'd simply believe that both parties were evil and were telling them lies.  

 

Which would leave them in exactly the same predicament as End3's innately good Adam and Eve.  

Neither A & E would be any closer to being able to decide, because both pairs lacked the knowledge of the difference between good and evil.  Being innately good or innately evil is an equal handicap.  Neither automatically leads to obedience of either.  Only knowledge of the difference between good and evil leads to the true ability to decide between the two.  

 

That's why the Eden narrative isn't about obedience, as End thinks it is, it's about knowledge.

 

Or rather, about god withholding knowledge from his children and then punishing them for wanting this knowledge.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

Do we need the definition of innate so you will understand????

[mymistake]

 

Do we need the definition of innate so you will understand????

 

 

Well the rest of us only go by how the dictionary defines "innate".  Maybe it would help us understand you

 

better if you told us what the End3 meaning was for that word.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

Do we need the definition of innate so you will understand????

 

 

Well the rest of us only go by how the dictionary defines "innate".  Maybe it would help us understand you

 

better if you told us what the End3 meaning was for that word.

 

 

Yes please, End.

 

How do you understand that word?

[midniterider]

in·nate

adjective

inborn; natural.

[midniterider]

Christian must blame the pawns for failure. Biblegod must never be blamed for setting up absurd situation.

[Guest end3]

Just saying that if they were innately good, then acting contrary to that natural, inborn nature would fit the definition of tempted.

[duderonomy]

Just saying that if they were innately good, then acting contrary to that natural, inborn nature would fit the definition of tempted.

 

That would really mean something End3, and A&E might be culpable if they had had the knowledge of good and evil at the time.  

 

I'm really surprised that no one has brought that point up yet, aren't you?

[Guest end3]

He was human #1. There was no reason culture nor a history of sin should have skewed the innate.

 

In other words, why would he need knowledge?

[duderonomy]

He was human #1. There was no reason culture nor a history of sin should have skewed the innate.

 

In other words, why would he need knowledge?

Why would he need knowledge for what?

[Guest end3]

 

He was human #1. There was no reason culture nor a history of sin should have skewed the innate.

 

In other words, why would he need knowledge?

Why would he need knowledge for what?

 

If he was innately good, why would he need a knowledge or history of good vs. evil?

[duderonomy]

 

 

He was human #1. There was no reason culture nor a history of sin should have skewed the innate.

 

In other words, why would he need knowledge?

Why would he need knowledge for what?

 

If he was innately good, why would he need a knowledge or history of good vs. evil?

 

A history of good vs. evil?  

[ConscientiousObjector]

End, perhaps it would be prudent for you to write up an english to End-ish dictionary so we can understand what these words translate to in End-land. I fail to grasp your definition of innate. If A and E have no prior knowledge of evil, how can they possibly recognize that evil exists? Thats like blaming a child for trusting a stranger with candy!

[Guest sylensikeelyoo]

Holy fuckballs End3, how many times do we gotta go through this! GEEZUS H KRYYST ON A STICK Turn with me in your goddamn bible to Genesis 1:31. "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very GOOD." This was after he had created Adam and all of creation. It was ALL inately GOOD, because GOD MADE IT THAT WAY. Adam and Eve were GOOD because God made them that way.

 

Now, as all of us had stated SEVERAL TIMES, Genesis 3:5 and 3:22 imply that neither of them had any concept of right and wrong or good and evil before they "disobeyed" God's order to leave the fucking tree alone. If they didn't know it was "wrong" to disobey God, how could a GOOD God justify punishing them OR their descendants?

 

When you leave religion completely out of it and you disect the story, you can see that it is full of plot holes and logical flaws. This story is just that. A myth. A fable. A lesson about how imperfect we are. But your problem, E3 is that you can't separate your mind from your religion. You have rejected reality and substituted your own. Well, its not your own, per say, but that of your religion but still. You can't just sit there and keep doing mental gymnastics and philosophical contortions in order to reconcile the reality of the story with what your religion teaches you about the story. But you can't just sit here and try to tell us that we need to do the same thing. Just because you believe something is true, doesn't mean it really is, and to sit here in this thread with us for a fucking week going, nuh uh, yes huh, nuh uh, is just mind numbing. Fuck me with a jack hammer, E3, I so totally respect your decision to believe whatever crack pot myths you want but goddammit DONT expect us to follow you down the rabbit hole. We've been there and done that and we're not going back.

 

Amen

Uncle Ben

Shot a rooster

Killed a hen

[Guest end3]

Originating in or arising from the intellect or the constitution of the mind, rather than learned through experience:

an innate knowledge of good and evil.

 

Without getting into whether the knowledge base was learned or innate, it appears as though Adam was born with the knowledge of good via the mode of creation. It also appears that the garden had the potential for good and evil to reside together....i.e., the serpent being present and also the tree being in the garden.

 

From my point of view, it seems as though the "image of God" inherent in Adam's human mind gave him an inborn desire/predisposition to lean towards good.

 

Begs the question, "how do we know if we are doing the right thing"

[Guest end3]

Holy fuckballs End3, how many times do we gotta go through this! GEEZUS H KRYYST ON A STICK Turn with me in your goddamn bible to Genesis 1:31. "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very GOOD." This was after he had created Adam and all of creation. It was ALL inately GOOD, because GOD MADE IT THAT WAY. Adam and Eve were GOOD because God made them that way.

 

Now, as all of us had stated SEVERAL TIMES, Genesis 3:5 and 3:22 imply that neither of them had any concept of right and wrong or good and evil before they "disobeyed" God's order to leave the fucking tree alone. If they didn't know it was "wrong" to disobey God, how could a GOOD God justify punishing them OR their descendants?

 

When you leave religion completely out of it and you disect the story, you can see that it is full of plot holes and logical flaws. This story is just that. A myth. A fable. A lesson about how imperfect we are. But your problem, E3 is that you can't separate your mind from your religion. You have rejected reality and substituted your own. Well, its not your own, per say, but that of your religion but still. You can't just sit there and keep doing mental gymnastics and philosophical contortions in order to reconcile the reality of the story with what your religion teaches you about the story. But you can't just sit here and try to tell us that we need to do the same thing. Just because you believe something is true, doesn't mean it really is, and to sit here in this thread with us for a fucking week going, nuh uh, yes huh, nuh uh, is just mind numbing. Fuck me with a jack hammer, E3, I so totally respect your decision to believe whatever crack pot myths you want but goddammit DONT expect us to follow you down the rabbit hole. We've been there and done that and we're not going back.

 

Amen

Uncle Ben

Shot a rooster

Killed a hen

Until you dissect it S, you will only have the surface experience.....you won't really "know".

[Guest end3]

Also saying that Adam's "gut/innate feeling" should have not been effected by a history of sin in the garden. In other words, God trusted Adam to respond as he had made him and there was no need to warn him of sin. With that, there was still exposure to evil in the garden. The fallen world was the result of the function of Adam.

 

Still goes back to "God could have created X". Still seems to me that God opted to create and gave the choice of good vs evil for a distinct reason....that we may "know" Him.

 

Floats my boat when I am able to choose and act on faithfully doing good vs the alternative.

 

I would rather know that and know that feeling than the other.

[ConscientiousObjector]

Well, this conversation is stuck in an endless loop. When you guys are done here, wanna come over to my place and explain quantum mechanics to my 5-year-old? It would certainly be a more productive discourse than trying to explain this to end!

[Guest sylensikeelyoo]

Well, this conversation is stuck in an endless loop. When you guys are done here, wanna come over to my place and explain quantum mechanics to my 5-year-old? It would certainly be a more productive discourse than trying to explain this to end!

Lmao A-fucking-MEN to that sister! In fact, I think while we are at it, we can teach my dog calculus too, and also dissect and analyze Shakespeare with my 14month old, and I guarantee we will get further along than we have in this conversation with End. Thirteen motherfucking pages with the same damn arguments, and we are still on square one. FML. Let's get outta here and have a drink, CO.

[Guest end3]

Holy fuckballs End3, how many times do we gotta go through this! GEEZUS H KRYYST ON A STICK Turn with me in your goddamn bible to Genesis 1:31. "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very GOOD." This was after he had created Adam and all of creation. It was ALL inately GOOD, because GOD MADE IT THAT WAY. Adam and Eve were GOOD because God made them that way.

 

Now, as all of us had stated SEVERAL TIMES, Genesis 3:5 and 3:22 imply that neither of them had any concept of right and wrong or good and evil before they "disobeyed" God's order to leave the fucking tree alone. If they didn't know it was "wrong" to disobey God, how could a GOOD God justify punishing them OR their descendants?

 

When you leave religion completely out of it and you disect the story, you can see that it is full of plot holes and logical flaws. This story is just that. A myth. A fable. A lesson about how imperfect we are. But your problem, E3 is that you can't separate your mind from your religion. You have rejected reality and substituted your own. Well, its not your own, per say, but that of your religion but still. You can't just sit there and keep doing mental gymnastics and philosophical contortions in order to reconcile the reality of the story with what your religion teaches you about the story. But you can't just sit here and try to tell us that we need to do the same thing. Just because you believe something is true, doesn't mean it really is, and to sit here in this thread with us for a fucking week going, nuh uh, yes huh, nuh uh, is just mind numbing. Fuck me with a jack hammer, E3, I so totally respect your decision to believe whatever crack pot myths you want but goddammit DONT expect us to follow you down the rabbit hole. We've been there and done that and we're not going back.

 

Amen

Uncle Ben

Shot a rooster

Killed a hen

Let's say you know the knowledge End3 shot someone. Is it right to say End3 is a murderer?

[Guest end3]

And ultimately, it's hard for us to know innately the difference know because we are so far removed from the original. God gives us a standard, Jesus, that we may look to Him and still know how a human would handle sin. Rather thankful myself.

 

Very weird, but I think Hitler was trying to remake Adam through his own means.

[florduh]

Floats my boat when I am able to choose and act on faithfully doing good vs the alternative.

 

The majority of people choose good, I think. It has been shown to pay off in many ways. What does this have to do with the fable about a creator who knowingly sets up his creation to fail and then condemns all future humanity to suffer the consequences? We may guess how someone might respond to a test situation, but the God character knew in advance what the result would be. How can that be an example of a good thing or even free will?

[Guest end3]

 

Floats my boat when I am able to choose and act on faithfully doing good vs the alternative.

The majority of people choose good, I think. It has been shown to pay off in many ways. What does this have to do with the fable about a creator who knowingly sets up his creation to fail and then condemns all future humanity to suffer the consequences? We may guess how someone might respond to a test situation, but the God character knew in advance what the result would be. How can that be an example of a good thing or even free will?

 

Because you only have a portion of the picture. Even today we gather as much evidence as we can to convict people. How can we collect evidence of "good"? And if we decide it's good, that's still relative to our perspective.....we're limited.

[mymistake]

Very weird, but I think Hitler was trying to remake Adam through his own means.

 

 

Okay this is my new favorite End3 word salad.

[florduh]

....we're limited. 

 

Yeah, that covers all the bullshit.