God Is Good. All The Time......all The Time. God Is Good.

[duderonomy]

 

 

 

 

Recognition has nothing to do with this. He didn't need to recognize anything. When he or she was tested, then the innate should have shown itself. It didn't matter that they were innocent. If I asked a person to play a piano, then innate piano talent will show regardless of whether they had previous piano lessons.

 

E3, why do you think it is that A&E's innate goodness didn't show itself when they were tempted?  Was there a flaw somewhere?

 

Eve wanted more apparently....not satisfied with what she had. (lol, she was a feminist).

 

Can't answer, huh?

 

Why don't you suggest what you are wanting me to get....obviously my opinion was not yours. Hard to communicate with someone who has your agenda.

 

Still can't answer, huh? 

[Guest end3]

God is omnipotent, omniscient, eternally unchanging and of course, good. Believers have assigned these qualities to their god; they are not derived from his actions, they are not arrived at by logic. In fact logic and the written record must be dismissed with the phrase, "We don't have his perspective, his ways are not our ways."

 

Allow me to explain this for my buddy, end3.

 

If you were driving a car and suddenly the fries were found to be cold, is that an example? When fishing for trout and your shoes wear out, can you simply chalk it up to the oranges? I say NO! Music can fire your hunger and sand is always available, but never unlimited. A computer can fry bacon perfectly, but it takes real freedom to wrestle in mud with butterflies. Is that clear now?

 

This example is the problem. There are relationships far beyond your means and ability to connect....yet in the face of that you say NO! Reality suggests there are relationships..."Screw you God, I can build a tower to Heaven myself".....I digress.

 

Your age is showing House.

[Guest end3]

 

 

 

 

 

Recognition has nothing to do with this. He didn't need to recognize anything. When he or she was tested, then the innate should have shown itself. It didn't matter that they were innocent. If I asked a person to play a piano, then innate piano talent will show regardless of whether they had previous piano lessons.

 

E3, why do you think it is that A&E's innate goodness didn't show itself when they were tempted?  Was there a flaw somewhere?

 

Eve wanted more apparently....not satisfied with what she had. (lol, she was a feminist).

 

Can't answer, huh?

 

Why don't you suggest what you are wanting me to get....obviously my opinion was not yours. Hard to communicate with someone who has your agenda.

 

Still can't answer, huh?

 

I did, you didn't like it.

[bornagainathiest]

I'm putting # 314 on hold for a bit, but will return to it in a few hours and ask End3 for four (4) separate answers, one for each question.

.

.

.

In the meantime, there's something else I'd like him to clarify for me. 

 

End says that Adam and Eve were created innately good. 

He cites Genesis 1 : 31 as indicating this.  But there's an even better reason for concluding that God made them innately good and fully good.  By his very nature, God couldn't make them any other way.  That's because even though God knows good and evil, he only ever does good.  Therefore, they must have been made innately and fully good, because God cannot create evil or cause evil.  Simple logic. 

 

1.

So, did God create A & E with any evil in them? 

The answer must be...No.  There can't have been any evil in their nature.  That's because God cannot cause or create evil.  God is light.  In him there is no darkness at all.  (1 John 1 : 5)  Therefore, to claim that God created A & E with evil in them is to contradict scripture and impute evil and wrongdoing to God himself.  # 1 can therefore be ruled out.

 

2.

Or did God create them with the conscious (innate?) potential for evil in them?

Again, the answer must be...No.  They had no conscious capacity within themselves to understand anything other than what God gave to them when he created them. To say otherwise is to grant them powers and abilities not mentioned in scripture.  To say otherwise is to add to scripture.  # 2 can therefore be ruled out.

 

3.

Or did God create them with the unconscious (innate?) potential for evil in them?

If the answer to this is Yes, then God secretly rigged their nature to have a potential they were totally unaware of.  Is it really just and fair of God to then hold them responsible for unconsciously acting on their unknown and secret potential for evil?  Clearly not.  Such a God would be a sadistic monster.  And scripture tells us that God's nature is perfect love, perfect goodness and perfect justice.  # 3 can therefore be ruled out.

 

4.

Or did A & E learn what evil was by experience before they encountered Satan?

Again, the answer must be...No.  Everything that they could experience in Eden was declared by God to be 'very good', in Genesis 1 : 31.  So they couldn't have acquired any knowledge of evil or the difference between good and evil before Satan first spoke to Eve.  # 4 can therefore be ruled out.

.

.

.

But End has added a new twist to the story.

A twist that I'd like to him explain and clarify.  According to his logic, even though God made A & E innately good, they could somehow act contrary to their own, God-created nature and do evil before they could learn or understood what evil was and how it was different from good.  In the light of 1 thru 4, this prompts the question... how?  How can completely good and innocent beings with no knowledge and experience of evil choose to act in an evil way, contrary to their innate, God-given goodness, before their nature was changed by knowledge in Genesis 3 : 7?

 

How, End?  

 

Before Satan spoke with Eve, how could she or Adam do evil?

 

Please clarify.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[duderonomy]

 

End says that Adam and Eve were created innately good. 

He cites Genesis 1 : 31 as indicating this.  But there's an even better reason for concluding that God made them innately good and fully good.  By his very nature, God couldn't make them any other way.  That's because even though God knows good and evil, he only ever does good.  Therefore, they must have been made innately and fully good, because God cannot create evil or cause evil.  Simple logic. 

 

1.

So, did God create A & E with any evil in them? 

The answer must be...No.  There can't have been any evil in their nature.  That's because God cannot cause or create evil.  God is light.  In him there is no darkness at all.  (1 John 1 : 5)  Therefore, to claim that God created A & E with evil in them is to contradict scripture and impute evil and wrongdoing to God himself.  # 1 can therefore be ruled out.

 

 

With respect, BAA, don't forget Isaiah 45:7 where God admits he creates evil.  Oh and to save E3 (and us) four pages of word study, some translations say he creates calamity or destruction. 

[duderonomy]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Recognition has nothing to do with this. He didn't need to recognize anything. When he or she was tested, then the innate should have shown itself. It didn't matter that they were innocent. If I asked a person to play a piano, then innate piano talent will show regardless of whether they had previous piano lessons.

 

E3, why do you think it is that A&E's innate goodness didn't show itself when they were tempted?  Was there a flaw somewhere?

 

Eve wanted more apparently....not satisfied with what she had. (lol, she was a feminist).

 

Can't answer, huh?

 

Why don't you suggest what you are wanting me to get....obviously my opinion was not yours. Hard to communicate with someone who has your agenda.

 

Still can't answer, huh?

 

I did, you didn't like it.

 

So, you really do think that Adam and Eve's innate goodness didn't show itself when they were tempted because Eve was a feminist that wasn't satisfied with her station?  

[mymistake]

 

I did, you didn't like it.

 

 

No, you didn't.  Throwing crazy, off the wall question back at us is not answering the questions we asked

 

of you.   But thanks to post 319 we know you are just bullshitting. 

[mymistake]

 

Why don't you suggest what you are wanting me to get....

 

 

 

That has been the whole thread.   Actually that sums up your entire experience at ex-C.  We suggest the

 

obvious and you talk yourself into nonsense.  Somehow you manage to convince yourself even though

 

your ideas don't add up and are often not even coherent.

[Guest end3]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Recognition has nothing to do with this. He didn't need to recognize anything. When he or she was tested, then the innate should have shown itself. It didn't matter that they were innocent. If I asked a person to play a piano, then innate piano talent will show regardless of whether they had previous piano lessons.

 

E3, why do you think it is that A&E's innate goodness didn't show itself when they were tempted?  Was there a flaw somewhere?

 

Eve wanted more apparently....not satisfied with what she had. (lol, she was a feminist).

 

Can't answer, huh?

 

Why don't you suggest what you are wanting me to get....obviously my opinion was not yours. Hard to communicate with someone who has your agenda.

 

Still can't answer, huh?

 

I did, you didn't like it.

 

So, you really do think that Adam and Eve's innate goodness didn't show itself when they were tempted because Eve was a feminist that wasn't satisfied with her station?

 

The feminist part was a joke. Yes, I think her innate quality didn't show because she was tempted. Pretty much the consensus view across the world, yet you and MM think I'm insane.

[Guest end3]

 

I did, you didn't like it.

 

No, you didn't.  Throwing crazy, off the wall question back at us is not answering the questions we asked

 

of you.   But thanks to post 319 we know you are just bullshitting.

 

Still nothing relevant from you today MM....this is three days straight.

[duderonomy]

 

The feminist part was a joke. Yes, I think her innate quality didn't show because she was tempted. Pretty much the consensus view across the world, yet you and MM think I'm insane.

 

I don't think you are insane. I think you know that you are in a big hole, and you are trying to get out of it by continuing to dig.

 

So then God's perfect and good creation can be dismantled with just one temptation in your view? How good and perfect could it have been then? There had to be a flaw in creation, unless as so many have said, God set the whole thing up for A&E's failure, in which case God shouldn't be blaming the creation for the way they were created. 

[midniterider]

God is omnipotent, omniscient, eternally unchanging and of course, good. Believers have assigned these qualities to their god; they are not derived from his actions, they are not arrived at by logic. In fact logic and the written record must be dismissed with the phrase, "We don't have his perspective, his ways are not our ways."

 

Allow me to explain this for my buddy, end3.

 

If you were driving a car and suddenly the fries were found to be cold, is that an example? When fishing for trout and your shoes wear out, can you simply chalk it up to the oranges? I say NO! Music can fire your hunger and sand is always available, but never unlimited. A computer can fry bacon perfectly, but it takes real freedom to wrestle in mud with butterflies. Is that clear now?

 

 

Wow, the light just came on. Thanks to your illustration I now understand the bible perfectly. 

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

End says that Adam and Eve were created innately good. 

He cites Genesis 1 : 31 as indicating this.  But there's an even better reason for concluding that God made them innately good and fully good.  By his very nature, God couldn't make them any other way.  That's because even though God knows good and evil, he only ever does good.  Therefore, they must have been made innately and fully good, because God cannot create evil or cause evil.  Simple logic. 

 

1.

So, did God create A & E with any evil in them? 

The answer must be...No.  There can't have been any evil in their nature.  That's because God cannot cause or create evil.  God is light.  In him there is no darkness at all.  (1 John 1 : 5)  Therefore, to claim that God created A & E with evil in them is to contradict scripture and impute evil and wrongdoing to God himself.  # 1 can therefore be ruled out.

 

 

With respect, BAA, don't forget Isaiah 45:7 where God admits he creates evil.  Oh and to save E3 (and us) four pages of word study, some translations say he creates calamity or destruction. 

 

 

Agree Dude.

 

This is cut-n-pasted from my profile page.

 

Isa 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]. 

 

”Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come?” (Lam. 3:38). 

 

”...that I may repent of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings” (Jer. 26:3). 

 

”...all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin” (Jer. 36:3). 

 

”I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts....” (Ezek. 20:25-26). 

 

”For thus saith the Lord; as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them” (Jer. 32:42). 

 

”...shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?” (Amos 3:6).

 

See also: Jer. 11:11, 14:16, 18:11, 19:3, 19:15, 23:12, 26:13, 26:19, 35:17, 36:31, 40:2, 42:10, 42:17, 44:2, 45:5, 49:37, 51:64, Ezek. 6:10, Micah 2:3, 1 Kings 21:29, 2 Chron. 34:24, and 2 Chron. 34:28

 

For the sake of this thread, I'm putting all of the above to one side and treating the Bible as harmonious, not contradictory.  

 

But you knew that.  

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[duderonomy]

 

God is omnipotent, omniscient, eternally unchanging and of course, good. Believers have assigned these qualities to their god; they are not derived from his actions, they are not arrived at by logic. In fact logic and the written record must be dismissed with the phrase, "We don't have his perspective, his ways are not our ways."

 

Allow me to explain this for my buddy, end3.

 

If you were driving a car and suddenly the fries were found to be cold, is that an example? When fishing for trout and your shoes wear out, can you simply chalk it up to the oranges? I say NO! Music can fire your hunger and sand is always available, but never unlimited. A computer can fry bacon perfectly, but it takes real freedom to wrestle in mud with butterflies. Is that clear now?

 

This example is the problem. There are relationships far beyond your means and ability to connect....yet in the face of that you say NO! Reality suggests there are relationships..."Screw you God, I can build a tower to Heaven myself".....I digress.

 

Your age is showing House.

 

Now I get how the game works!  You take Florduh's explanation to End and hold it up to a mirror, and you see End's response.

[florduh]

...'tis a mystery...

[Guest end3]

...'tis a mystery...

Why would you deny. If I fart on this side of the world, ultimately there's a connection to the other side of the world....however diminishingly small. Which means NO connection. I see. Now I got it.

[Guest end3]

 

The feminist part was a joke. Yes, I think her innate quality didn't show because she was tempted. Pretty much the consensus view across the world, yet you and MM think I'm insane.

I don't think you are insane. I think you know that you are in a big hole, and you are trying to get out of it by continuing to dig.

 

So then God's perfect and good creation can be dismantled with just one temptation in your view? How good and perfect could it have been then? There had to be a flaw in creation, unless as so many have said, God set the whole thing up for A&E's failure, in which case God shouldn't be blaming the creation for the way they were created.

 

Since we don't know God's reason for giving humanity free will, then it seems reasonable that reconciliation would be good as well.

[midniterider]

So this God who is mysterious, whom we can never hope to make sense of some of the stuff he does, who behaves in what seems to be a bizarre way.....we're supposed to worship him? lolz

 

I remember as a child asking my parents lots of questions and my parents explaining something that was mysterious to me. Then again my parents 1) were real and 2) cared about me and therefore didnt want to leave me hanging....

[midniterider]

 

 

The feminist part was a joke. Yes, I think her innate quality didn't show because she was tempted. Pretty much the consensus view across the world, yet you and MM think I'm insane.

I don't think you are insane. I think you know that you are in a big hole, and you are trying to get out of it by continuing to dig.

 

So then God's perfect and good creation can be dismantled with just one temptation in your view? How good and perfect could it have been then? There had to be a flaw in creation, unless as so many have said, God set the whole thing up for A&E's failure, in which case God shouldn't be blaming the creation for the way they were created.

 

Since we don't know God's reason for giving humanity free will, then it seems reasonable that reconciliation would be good as well.

 

 

We don't know diddly about this supposed God so let's love him.

[Guest end3]

 

 

 

The feminist part was a joke. Yes, I think her innate quality didn't show because she was tempted. Pretty much the consensus view across the world, yet you and MM think I'm insane.

I don't think you are insane. I think you know that you are in a big hole, and you are trying to get out of it by continuing to dig.

 

So then God's perfect and good creation can be dismantled with just one temptation in your view? How good and perfect could it have been then? There had to be a flaw in creation, unless as so many have said, God set the whole thing up for A&E's failure, in which case God shouldn't be blaming the creation for the way they were created.

 

Since we don't know God's reason for giving humanity free will, then it seems reasonable that reconciliation would be good as well.

 

 

We don't know diddly about this supposed God so let's love him.

 

God the Father is hard to envision. So he sends a human with his ways so that we might understand him better.

[florduh]

Since we don't know God's reason for giving humanity free will, then it seems reasonable that reconciliation would be good as well. 

 

Why not just make up a reason for this, like everything else is made up? (I know the answer)

 

It's because Christian theology has painted itself into a corner with irreconcilable absolutes and internal contradictions. We can invent a god who can, by definition, do no evil. What we cannot do is make sense of what we see and what has been written about his holy exploits. The only choices we have are to proclaim that God's perspective is nothing like ours so there will always be mystery and unanswered questions, or, we can recognize it all for what it is; mythology and allegory at best, or perhaps it's just total bullshit.

[Guest end3]

 

Since we don't know God's reason for giving humanity free will, then it seems reasonable that reconciliation would be good as well.

Why not just make up a reason for this, like everything else is made up? (I know the answer)

 

It's because Christian theology has painted itself into a corner with irreconcilable absolutes and internal contradictions. We can invent a god who can, by definition, do no evil. What we cannot do is make sense of what we see and what has been written about his holy exploits. The only choices we have are to proclaim that God's perspective is nothing like ours so there will always be mystery and unanswered questions, or, we can recognize it all for what it is; mythology and allegory at best, or perhaps it's just total bullshit.

 

No harm no foul...you faithfully follow one direction and I another. No biggie. Meet you at the beer joint for mud wrestling.

[duderonomy]

 

 

The feminist part was a joke. Yes, I think her innate quality didn't show because she was tempted. Pretty much the consensus view across the world, yet you and MM think I'm insane.

I don't think you are insane. I think you know that you are in a big hole, and you are trying to get out of it by continuing to dig.

 

So then God's perfect and good creation can be dismantled with just one temptation in your view? How good and perfect could it have been then? There had to be a flaw in creation, unless as so many have said, God set the whole thing up for A&E's failure, in which case God shouldn't be blaming the creation for the way they were created.

 

Since we don't know God's reason for giving humanity free will, then it seems reasonable that reconciliation would be good as well.

 

I won't argue free will with you just now End, but I'm not sure the Bible allows for it.

 

We can discuss this, though; what good would free will have done for A&E, before they had any knowledge of what to choose?

[mymistake]

 

Since we don't know God's reason for giving humanity free will, then it seems reasonable that reconciliation would be good as well.

 

 

 

The Bible doesn't say God gave humanity free will.

 

What story are we talking about now?

[mymistake]

 

God the Father is hard to envision. So he sends a human with his ways so that we might understand him better.

 

 

God the Father is easy to envision.  That is why the Greeks had Kronos, the Romans had Saturn, the

 

Norse had Odin and the pre-exile Hebrews had El, the God Most High who was the father of Yahweh

 

and the other 70 gods and goddesses.  A Father god is a common theme most cultures create in their

 

pantheon.  God the Father even showed up in Star Trek V.