God Is Good. All The Time......all The Time. God Is Good.

[duderonomy]

I don't know if End3 is for real or not, this being the innerwebs and all, but most every thread he enters becomes a lurkers paradise, I'll give him that much.

 

(Edited to add strike through to save someone from having to fix that for me.)

[yunea]

Yes, I usually can't for the life of me think of anything to say in these threads, but it's great reading them.

[mwc]

     ^^^ Just say what you think.  Nothing here matters so don't put pressure on yourself to come up with something brilliant or insightful if all you want to do is say you think something is a load of bullshit.

 

          mwc

[Guest Furball]

     Take a breath and relax.  You guys are letting someone have power over you who totally doesn't deserve it.

 

          mwc

 

You're totally right mwc. The other week i had a dream i was debating end3, this stuff is starting to bleed into my sleep. You're right though, i let him get the best of me. I will catch my breath and back off so i can chill out. -Cat

[mymistake]

 

     Take a breath and relax.  You guys are letting someone have power over you who totally doesn't deserve it.

 

          mwc

 

You're totally right mwc. The other week i had a dream i was debating end3, this stuff is starting to bleed into my sleep. You're right though, i let him get the best of me. I will catch my breath and back off so i can chill out. -Cat

 

 

 

Anger is the response when people deny what you believe.

 

Humor is the response when people deny knowledge.

 

So learn to laugh at our resident believers - or pity them.  

[yunea]

 Just say what you think.  Nothing here matters so don't put pressure on yourself to come up with something brilliant or insightful if all you want to do is say you think something is a load of bullshit.

 

          mwc

 

Well... Here is what I think.

 

Nobody would ever be stuck in an abusive relationship if the abuser didn't know how to make another person occasionally feel warm, fuzzy and special and like it's all meant to be. Also they convince the abused person that if they just stop doing things the abuser doesn't like, all will be perfect for eternity - except that it always fails at some point, and then the abused person will be reminded of the painful sacrifices the abuser has made for them.

 

Sounds much too familiar to me. 

[Thackerie]

 

 

 

 

Did Mr. E3 finally give up?

 

 

After he creates a mess he abandons the thread.  However this will all start up again in a couple of weeks

 

when he says the same kind of crap in a different thread.  It will be exactly like he learned nothing at all.

Because he is not here to learn. He thinks he already knows the truth. He is here to Antagonize.

 

 

 

Well it does make for nice entertainment.

 

 

No it doesn't. He is pro torture and murder of little children. We went through this in another thread. He is all for the torture, suffering, rape, starvation, and murder of innocent children and babies simply because they fly under the banner of adam and eve's "transgression." This shit is not entertaining, it's just plain sick. I am disgusted that this thing is allowed on this site. I refer to him as a thing because even evil people have admitted that the hurting/suffering of children is wrong. If even evil people draw the line at kids and end3 doesn't, what does that make him? Human? No, he is a thing. Disgusting. 

 

 

+1000

[mwc]

Well... Here is what I think.

 

Nobody would ever be stuck in an abusive relationship if the abuser didn't know how to make another person occasionally feel warm, fuzzy and special and like it's all meant to be. Also they convince the abused person that if they just stop doing things the abuser doesn't like, all will be perfect for eternity - except that it always fails at some point, and then the abused person will be reminded of the painful sacrifices the abuser has made for them.

 

Sounds much too familiar to me. 

 

     Yeah, the whole "relationship" humans are supposed to be having with this all-loving god does seem oddly abusive doesn't it?

 

          mwc

[yunea]

 

Well... Here is what I think.

 

Nobody would ever be stuck in an abusive relationship if the abuser didn't know how to make another person occasionally feel warm, fuzzy and special and like it's all meant to be. Also they convince the abused person that if they just stop doing things the abuser doesn't like, all will be perfect for eternity - except that it always fails at some point, and then the abused person will be reminded of the painful sacrifices the abuser has made for them.

 

Sounds much too familiar to me. 

 

     Yeah, the whole "relationship" humans are supposed to be having with this all-loving god does seem oddly abusive doesn't it?

 

          mwc

 

It does. It really does. I could go on and on about it. 

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

 Just say what you think.  Nothing here matters so don't put pressure on yourself to come up with something brilliant or insightful if all you want to do is say you think something is a load of bullshit.

 

          mwc

 

Well... Here is what I think.

 

Nobody would ever be stuck in an abusive relationship if the abuser didn't know how to make another person occasionally feel warm, fuzzy and special and like it's all meant to be. Also they convince the abused person that if they just stop doing things the abuser doesn't like, all will be perfect for eternity - except that it always fails at some point, and then the abused person will be reminded of the painful sacrifices the abuser has made for them.

 

Sounds much too familiar to me. 

 

Yeah, the old "nobody loves you as much as I love you, nobody has what we have."

[mymistake]

 

 

Well... Here is what I think.

 

Nobody would ever be stuck in an abusive relationship if the abuser didn't know how to make another person occasionally feel warm, fuzzy and special and like it's all meant to be. Also they convince the abused person that if they just stop doing things the abuser doesn't like, all will be perfect for eternity - except that it always fails at some point, and then the abused person will be reminded of the painful sacrifices the abuser has made for them.

 

Sounds much too familiar to me. 

 

     Yeah, the whole "relationship" humans are supposed to be having with this all-loving god does seem oddly abusive doesn't it?

 

          mwc

 

It does. It really does. I could go on and on about it. 

 

 

 

In the Bible and what we hear from preachers . . . that part is abusive.  But there is another element to the

 

"relationship".  We have to chase after God like desperate, obsessive fans.  We have to tell ourselves that

 

we have a real relationship with somebody who never shows up and never answers.  It's almost like we

 

are stalking God only God couldn't be bothered enough to get a restraining order.  He just avoids us like

 

a plague.

[yunea]

 

 

 

Well... Here is what I think.

 

Nobody would ever be stuck in an abusive relationship if the abuser didn't know how to make another person occasionally feel warm, fuzzy and special and like it's all meant to be. Also they convince the abused person that if they just stop doing things the abuser doesn't like, all will be perfect for eternity - except that it always fails at some point, and then the abused person will be reminded of the painful sacrifices the abuser has made for them.

 

Sounds much too familiar to me. 

 

     Yeah, the whole "relationship" humans are supposed to be having with this all-loving god does seem oddly abusive doesn't it?

 

          mwc

 

It does. It really does. I could go on and on about it. 

 

 

 

In the Bible and what we hear from preachers . . . that part is abusive.  But there is another element to the

 

"relationship".  We have to chase after God like desperate, obsessive fans.  We have to tell ourselves that

 

we have a real relationship with somebody who never shows up and never answers.  It's almost like we

 

are stalking God only God couldn't be bothered enough to get a restraining order.  He just avoids us like

 

a plague.

 

 

Very true, that, too!

 

Also there is always someone else at church who seems to have the perfectly functional relationship we want, and that keeps us running after God, only to discover later that it wasn't what it looked like at all. 

 

Like I remember one girl who talked about being "saved" from a crazy life of partying and she was really happy, singing, dancing, praising, saying how she could spend all her time at church. I wanted my relationship with God to be like the one she had, so blissful.

Except it turned out she'd switched all her anti-psychotics and depression meds to just praying to Jesus, and even later she was panicking and crying over feeling like Jesus was telling her to stop wearing piercings - and she did, and then put them back in, took them back out, fought with herself or however she explained it to herself... where was the bliss then?

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

Amazing thread! I'm sorry I missed it when it was first created, but it's better late than never I suppose.

 

I also enjoyed the "discussion" with End3. It was a nice touch. Very amusing! 

[Guest end3]

Amazing thread! I'm sorry I missed it when it was first created, but it's better late than never I suppose.

 

I also enjoyed the "discussion" with End3. It was a nice touch. Very amusing!

We aim to serve CG. Hope you are doing well.

[bornagainathiest]

If your aim is to serve End, this is still pending...

 

Posted 10 June 2015 - 01:57 AM

end3, on 10 Jun 2015 - 03:36 AM, said:

 

bornagainathiest, on 10 Jun 2015 - 02:32 AM, said:

Try this, End.
 
Recognition requires knowledge.  Where there is no knowledge, there can be no recognition.
 
Since Adam's goodness was independent of his knowledge, he couldn't have used his innate goodness to recognize either good or evil.
 
Catch?

Recognition has nothing to do with this. He didn't need to recognize anything. When he or she was tested, then the innate should have shown itself. It didn't matter that they were innocent. If I asked a person to play a piano, then innate piano talent will show regardless of whether they had previous piano lessons.

 

 

 

And what kind of test was this?

 

One that didn't require Adam to make a conscious, deliberate and considered choice of recognition between two different things?

 

And if recognition played no role in God's test, why did he specifically warn Adam about just one tree?

 

Why did he give Adam the knowledge of which tree it was by identifying it for him?

 

And what was it about the fruit of that tree that God declared made Adam just like God?

[bornagainathiest]

And this (the question, How?) is still pending too...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

In the meantime, there's something else I'd like him to clarify for me. 

 

End says that Adam and Eve were created innately good. 

He cites Genesis 1 : 31 as indicating this.  But there's an even better reason for concluding that God made them innately good and fullygood.  By his very nature, God couldn't make them any other way.  That's because even though God knows good and evil, he only ever does good.  Therefore, they must have been made innately and fully good, because God cannot create evil or cause evil.  Simple logic. 

 

1.

So, did God create A & E with any evil in them? 

The answer must be...No.  There can't have been any evil in their nature.  That's because God cannot cause or create evil.  God is light.  In him there is no darkness at all.  (1 John 1 : 5)  Therefore, to claim that God created A & E with evil in them is to contradict scripture and impute evil and wrongdoing to God himself.  # 1 can therefore be ruled out.

 

2.

Or did God create them with the conscious (innate?) potential for evil in them?

Again, the answer must be...No.  They had no conscious capacity within themselves to understand anything other than what God gave to them when he created them. To say otherwise is to grant them powers and abilities not mentioned in scripture.  To say otherwise is to add to scripture.  # 2 can therefore be ruled out.

 

3.

Or did God create them with the unconscious (innate?) potential for evil in them?

If the answer to this is Yes, then God secretly rigged their nature to have a potential they were totally unaware of.  Is it really just and fair of God to then hold them responsible for unconsciously acting on their unknown and secret potential for evil?  Clearly not.  Such a God would be a sadistic monster.  And scripture tells us that God's nature is perfect love, perfect goodness and perfect justice.  # 3 can therefore be ruled out.

 

4.

Or did A & E learn what evil was by experience before they encountered Satan?

Again, the answer must be...No.  Everything that they could experience in Eden was declared by God to be 'very good', in Genesis 1 : 31.  So they couldn't have acquired any knowledge of evil or the difference between good and evil before Satan first spoke to Eve.  # 4 can therefore be ruled out.

.

.

.

But End has added a new twist to the story.

A twist that I'd like to him explain and clarify.  According to his logic, even though God made A & E innately good, they could somehow act contrary to their own, God-created nature and do evil before they could learn or understood what evil was and how it was different from good.  In the light of 1 thru 4, this prompts the question... how?  How can completely good and innocent beings with no knowledge and experience of evil choose to act in an evil way, contrary to their innate, God-given goodness, before their nature was changed by knowledge in Genesis 3 : 7?

 

How, End?  

 

Before Satan spoke with Eve, how could she or Adam do evil?

 

Please clarify.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Guest sylensikeelyoo]

All of which are very good questions, BAA which E3 has conveniently ignored. While we were awaiting his answer, the rest of us are sitting here with E3, bits of rubble sticking out of our foreheads from banging our heads against the wall. After all, this is what it's been like talking with the guy for 20+ pages.

[bornagainathiest]

All of which are very good questions, BAA which E3 has conveniently ignored. While we were awaiting his answer, the rest of us are sitting here with E3, bits of rubble sticking out of our foreheads from banging our heads against the wall. After all, this is what it's been like talking with the guy for 20+ pages.

 

Well Sylens,

 

End can ignore away, but maybe you (and anyone else who's so minded) would like to join me in doing something for the benefit of the other members?  All that's needed is to keep a record of this thread and the pile of questions in his 'In' tray and to keep reminding him of them.

 

Even if he never responds (quite likely) others benefit by seeing that he flat out refuses to answer key questions about Genesis.  Questions he seems determined to dodge, avoid and run away from.  Which will elegantly show others that he can only keep his faith intact by a stonewall refusal to have his faith exposed as a sham.

 

So End's silence benefits us all in this way.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

Amazing thread! I'm sorry I missed it when it was first created, but it's better late than never I suppose.

 

I also enjoyed the "discussion" with End3. It was a nice touch. Very amusing!

We aim to serve CG. Hope you are doing well.

 

 

I am doing well. How about you?

[Thought2Much]

Not sure if anyone has asked this question anywhere in the 20 pages of this thread, but something occurred to me while reading some of BAA's posts...

 

If, after God created everything, he declared his entire creation "good" and "very good," then how could the serpent (which, remember, wasn't actually Satan in the story; that's only a connection we make now) have been included in that assessment? The serpent was actually the first being to sin in the garden (not for lying, but for tempting Adam and Eve to disobey God), not Adam and Eve.

 

And how did the serpent know the difference between good and evil, and what death was? How did it know how to lie unless God gave him that ability, which would mean the serpent couldn't have been "good" (either as a statement of quality or moral bearing)? Once again, remember that the serpent was never intended to be thought of as Satan.

 

EDIT: I mean, I know the real answer, which is that "it's just a story," but I can't believe I never saw this particular plot hole before.

[Guest sylensikeelyoo]

Yep yep sounds good BAA. It would also be good if this thread were pinned for everyone to see as well, that in these 20 pages none of our questions were answered, and E3 gave us the run around for a whole week. And yep, T2M I think that was brought up a couple times by myself, BAA, MM, Eyes, and a couple others. It was completely glossed over by E3. He had some bullshit explanation for it but the other shit he said steered us all off course in the discussion. Lolz

[Thought2Much]

And yep, T2M I think that was brought up a couple times by myself, BAA, MM, Eyes, and a couple others. It was completely glossed over by E3. He had some bullshit explanation for it but the other shit he said steered us all off course in the discussion. Lolz

 

Thanks, I will admit that I skimmed quite a bit.

[mymistake]

 

And yep, T2M I think that was brought up a couple times by myself, BAA, MM, Eyes, and a couple others. It was completely glossed over by E3. He had some bullshit explanation for it but the other shit he said steered us all off course in the discussion. Lolz

 

Thanks, I will admit that I skimmed quite a bit.

 

 

 

 

The answer to you questions is those who say the Bible is made up do not have an argument and are not

 

contributing to the conversation.  End is the boss so he makes the rules.   Oh wait, no he doesn't.

[duderonomy]

I was wanting the thread to go to where A&E only knew the difference between good and evil because of their experience of doing evil. If it did, I missed it, although I think that's where End was going eventually.

 

My point being that if A&E only became like God, knowing good and evil because they experienced evil by doing evil, then what evil did God do that made him know? 

[mymistake]

I was wanting the thread to go to where A&E only knew the difference between good and evil because of their experience of doing evil. If it did, I missed it, although I think that's where End was going eventually.

 

My point being that if A&E only became like God, knowing good and evil because they experienced evil by doing evil, then what evil did God do that made him know? 

 

Well he planed the whole universe around the rape of Joseph's betrothed.  That is definitely the sin of

 

coveting because Joseph didn't even exist back then.