Christians: Why would an all-good God base our salvation from Hell on whether or not we believe in a 2,000-year-old supernatural story?

[midniterider]

I'm glad I'm not a Jesusbot anymore.

[LogicalFallacy]

 

 

Again, if God was of the Canaanite gods, He would not have destroyed them.

 

'Us' and 'Our' are God.

 

Stranger

 

Us and Our are plurals. God is saying Let "US" - us pertains to more than one. Who is God referring to?

 

Ok, again, your god is essentially a Canaanite God. You can actually read scholarly translations of the bible where you see the writers switching between Elohim as is "And Elohim said let us make man..." to the next Chapter is says and the Lord God - properly translated this is "And Elohim Yahweh". So here the writers have doubled up as the Israelites adopted Yahweh as their deity and rejected Elohim who was the Canaanite deity. The thing is Yahweh is one of Elohim's son's, along with Baal. Thus we can see the Christian god is derived from the Jewish god who is derived from Canaanite gods leading us full circle.

 

So again who is the "Us" and "Our" that is being referred to in Genesis considering in other new parts of the OT God refers to himself as "I".

[Stranger]

 

 

I'm describing you about as "dishonestly" as you are describing us. You may not be meaning to convey that you think we are these ignorant rebels, who "understand not what we do," but that's wrong. We understand exactly what "we have done." You skirt around basic logic with even more basic illogical statements. "Logic" (which god created) is "of the world" (which god created) and has "been perverted" (god did this) because of "the fall" (god could fix it) which your god orchestrated as part of his almighty plan makes no heathen-ly sense.

 

What you are telling us is: "Good news, you're going to roast in hell for all eternity. Because you motherfucking deserve it, you disgusting and sinful piece of shit. Your ancestors fucked up, as part of his holiness' magnificent plan, because your god set them up to fail. Unless, of course, you believe that god, in his perfect and powerful will, conceived of this giant troll plan to slaughter himself manifested as his son to calm the bloodthirsty rage at your sinful existence enough to tolerate you again. You see, there must be blood, because he loves that shit. The pleasing smell of blood calms him enough to tolerate your sin and if it's not going to be an animal's blood, or your blood, it must be his own son's (as himself, of course).  This is, obviously, because only his own holy, righteous blood atones for your sin due to his unattainable, immovable standard. Believing in this holy zombie jew's bloody sacrifice as payment for your unwitting transgressions is the only way, because it's the only payment acceptable to our heavenly father. So, have faith. But only God can only give that faith to you. So you'll have to cross your fingers and hope that you are one of God's favorite people. Because he did plan in the beginning that you would roast in hell for not believing and you can't change his sovereign plan. Unless...of course you do believe. In which case it was his plan that you believe. He just wants a relationship with you, you see, but he prefers the relationship on his terms. He prefers only to test you, reveling in your tears, cries, and pleas with him to have mercy because it points to his majesty and his ultimate glory. And this life of trials isn't even the worst part. He'll fucking torture you forever if you don't believe. Because, remember, God loves you so much."

 

If you do not see a problem with any of this....at all, then we're done here and there is nothing to discuss. You look down on us as if you've been given some sort of secret, divine wisdom that we shall never have and you get high off of it. If we are destined for hell, as you have said, because we are all mired in sin, which you have said, without escaping it because of our ancestors, which you have said.....then it sounds like we are just categorically fucked, excuse my french. You can go to sleep tonight knowing that not only have you not converted any of us back, you have confirmed why we left in the first place and have sent us running even further "from the lord." I "have faith" that your god, if he exists, is evil incarnate.

 

I don't believe I have said what I have said because I look down on you.  I do disagree with you.  Just as you disagree with me.  

 

Stranger

[ag_NO_stic]

 

 

I don't believe I have said what I have said because I look down on you.  I do disagree with you.  Just as you disagree with me.  

 

Stranger

 

Do you or do you not see a problem with the narrative I described? You can overlook "zombie" if you wish.

[Stranger]

 

@Stranger - @ag_NO_stic makes a very good point. You are all reminding us why we left Christianity. You are in effect sending us further from God because of what you are writing. That is not good for you.

 

Do you think God would judge you for this? Would he say, you might have thought you were doing a good thing, but you caused these people to move further away from me. Therefore you will go to hell with them?

 

Do you think its just god would do this to you?

 

 

 

I am telling you what I believe the Bible says.  If that drives you farther away, there is nothing I can do about that.  

 

Either way God is pleased as long as I tell what I know to be true.   

 

Stranger

[Stranger]

 

 

Us and Our are plurals. God is saying Let "US" - us pertains to more than one. Who is God referring to?

 

Ok, again, your god is essentially a Canaanite God. You can actually read scholarly translations of the bible where you see the writers switching between Elohim as is "And Elohim said let us make man..." to the next Chapter is says and the Lord God - properly translated this is "And Elohim Yahweh". So here the writers have doubled up as the Israelites adopted Yahweh as their deity and rejected Elohim who was the Canaanite deity. The thing is Yahweh is one of Elohim's son's, along with Baal. Thus we can see the Christian god is derived from the Jewish god who is derived from Canaanite gods leading us full circle.

 

So again who is the "Us" and "Our" that is being referred to in Genesis considering in other new parts of the OT God refers to himself as "I".

 

God is Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

 

Again, God is not a Canaanite god.  Had He been He wouldn't have had the Canaanites destroyed.  

 

Stranger

[LogicalFallacy]

 

 

I am telling you what I believe the Bible says.  If that drives you farther away, there is nothing I can do about that.  

 

Either way God is pleased as long as I tell what I know to be true.   

 

Stranger

 

So sure of God's will and what he thinks of you aren't we?

 

Consider the bible:

 

"Isaiah 64:6New International Version (NIV)

⁶ All of us have become like one who is unclean,
    and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
    and like the wind our sins sweep us away."

Matthew Chapter 7

¹ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

²² Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

²³ And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.  Matthew 7

 

Do you not think you are doing wonderful works by you telling us what you believe is true Stranger?

[LogicalFallacy]

@Stranger

 

Can you please tell me where in the bible the phrase God most high, or Most High God comes from?

[Stranger]

 

 

Do you or do you not see a problem with the narrative I described? You can overlook "zombie" if you wish.

 

Yes, I do.   The attitude with which you depict me as having is not the attitude I have. 

 

Stranger

[Stranger]

 

 

So sure of God's will and what he thinks of you aren't we?

 

Consider the bible:

 

"Isaiah 64:6New International Version (NIV)

⁶ All of us have become like one who is unclean,
    and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
    and like the wind our sins sweep us away."

Matthew Chapter 7

¹ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

²² Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

²³ And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.  Matthew 7

 

Do you not think you are doing wonderful works by you telling us what you believe is true Stranger?

 

Good verses.   What is your point?   

 

Stranger

[ag_NO_stic]

 

 

Yes, I do.   The attitude with which you depict me as having is not the attitude I have. 

 

Stranger

 

Ok, then do you or do you not believe the narrative with some condescending compassion thrown in?

 

Or would you like to clarify the attitude that you do have, since you did not clarify it in your above response?

 

Furthermore....just to clarify....the only problem you have with the narrative is your attitude? Not any of the content? Or God's "attitude?"

[LogicalFallacy]

 

 

Good verses.   What is your point?   

 

Stranger

You proclaimed "Either way God is pleased as long as I tell what I know to be true."

 

However this is a boastful assertion when in fact, based on the versus I quoted God might not be thinking very highly of you at all. It is arrogance of the highest degree to assume that simply because you think you are doing his work that you are pleasing god. Even as a Christian I knew this was a mistake to assume I was doing gods work and he would be pleased.

 

The man who put his hand on the ark of the covenant thought he was helping god to stop the ark from falling - God killed him for it.

 

 

 

[Stranger]

 

@Stranger

 

Can you please tell me where in the bible the phrase God most high, or Most High God comes from?

 

It is used many times in the Bible.  It comes from God.

 

Stranger

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

Not so.  Adam and Eve did die the moment they ate of the fruit.  They experienced immediate spiritual death.  And they immediately began to die physically.   Death now worked in them as a disease.

 

Stranger  

I have searched in vain for many years for the part in the story where god explains "spiritual" death to Adam and Eve; but the hard truth is, god never even explains physical death to them.  They lived in a perfect, innocent world and had no concept of what death even meant.  You are simply adding the "spiritual" death concept to make the narrative fit your beliefs; that concept is not in the text, nowhere, at all.

 

If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.  Revelation 22:18

[Stranger]

 

 

Ok, then do you or do you not believe the narrative with some condescending compassion thrown in?

 

Or would you like to clarify the attitude that you do have, since you did not clarify it in your above response?

 

Furthermore....just to clarify....the only problem you have with the narrative is your attitude? Not any of the content? Or God's "attitude?"

 

Attitude is something that resonates without describing it.   I don't believe I need to clarify it.  

 

As coming from you, no, I have no problem with the content.

 

Stranger

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

Evil exists because it serves God's purpose.  

 

Stranger

For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.  Jeremiah 29:11

 

Evil serves god's purpose?  Not according to the bible!

[Stranger]

 

You proclaimed "Either way God is pleased as long as I tell what I know to be true."

 

However this is a boastful assertion when in fact, based on the versus I quoted God might not be thinking very highly of you at all. It is arrogance of the highest degree to assume that simply because you think you are doing his work that you are pleasing god. Even as a Christian I knew this was a mistake to assume I was doing gods work and he would be pleased.

 

The man who put his hand on the ark of the covenant thought he was helping god to stop the ark from falling - God killed him for it.

 

 

 

 

So, when did you know you were doing God's work?

 

Stranger

[Stranger]

 

I have searched in vain for many years for the part in the story where god explains "spiritual" death to Adam and Eve; but the hard truth is, god never even explains physical death to them.  They lived in a perfect, innocent world and had no concept of what death even meant.  You are simply adding the "spiritual" death concept to make the narrative fit your beliefs; that concept is not in the text, nowhere, at all.

 

If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.  Revelation 22:18

 

Adam and Eve died both spiritually and physically.  Death now began working in them.  

 

Stranger

[Stranger]

 

For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.  Jeremiah 29:11

 

Evil serves god's purpose?  Not according to the bible!

 

How does this prove that evil does not serve God's purpose?

 

Stranger

[LogicalFallacy]

 

 

So, when did you know you were doing God's work?

 

Stranger

 

Oooh, I knew up until around two years ago

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

Adam and Eve died both spiritually and physically.  Death now began working in them.  

 

Stranger

Can you provide an actual scripture verse to support your assertion?  

[LogicalFallacy]

 

 

It is used many times in the Bible.  It comes from God.

 

Stranger

The phrase Most High God comes from Elyon, which is an extension of El - the Canaanite god. El = God. Elyon= God most high. We can see these phrases being used in the bible because the Jewish religion and people rose out of the Canaanite people, as well as possibly absorbing some wandering groups into their society.

 

(Here I need to make a correction to previous posts - Elohim wasn't the Canaanite chief deity, El was, Elohim means Sons of El - these sons included Yahweh (Bible god) and Baal) )

 

At this point I am confident of saying that your entire argument for God can be boiled down to saying "it comes from God". I mean literally your ENTIRE argument is Godidit.

 

You have been presented with many arguments, from many angles, none which have been refuted. You basic rebuttal to which is normally; "God said it/did it/ says its so", or "its in the bible, and the bible is gods word".

 

Is there anything anyone could provide that would cause you to rethink your belief?

 

Obviously me pointing out the derivation of the Jewish and Christian God from Canaanite gods has done nothing to make you stop and think. This is despite archaeological and textual evidences that show this.

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

How does this prove that evil does not serve God's purpose?

 

Stranger

Really?  You rely on the bible to "prove" your beliefs; but you reject the bible when it doesn't "prove" to your satisfaction?  Grow up, son.

[Rounin]

 

2.)  No.  God cannot just say I took care of it.  He must take care of it.

God righteous nature will not allow sin in His presence without judgement.   He cannot just say it's ok to be here.

3.)  The Christian is to exercise forgiveness to others.  But, our forgiveness is not the same as God's.  If we are wronged and forgive those who wronged us, we in essence are saying, let it go.   Any wrong done to me I will not pursue any action against.    But, God must deal with every wrong.  And only as God has dealt with every wrong can  He forgive that wrong.

This is quite interesting, as it means God is not omnipotent.
Not only that, but he lacks a capacity to refrain from brutally torturing others that nearly all humans have, making humans vastly more powerful when it comes to self-control, as well as vastly morally superior.

[ag_NO_stic]

 

God righteous nature will not allow sin in His presence without judgement.   He cannot just say it's ok to be here.  He must make it right that the believer is there.  He must really and literally remove the sin.  Only in this way can He be both 'just and the justifier'. (Rom. 3:26)

 

But, God must deal with every wrong.  And only as God has dealt with every wrong can  He forgive that wrong.   

 

You know what is really interesting to me, @Stranger? That you say god cannot change his mind or that he must deal with sin as it is not allowed in his presence when that notion is bit difficult to reconcile with scripture.

 

• “Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father....who does not change like shifting shadows." (James 1:17)
• “I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.” (Malachi 3:6)
• “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and then not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?” (Numbers 23:19)

Now compare with this:

•  “The LORD was grieved that He had made man on the earth, and His heart was filled with pain.” (Genesis 6:6)
• "So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people," (Exodus 32:14).
• Perhaps the grand slam of his changing mind is this widespread understanding throughout christianity that there is a "new covenant" when Jesus himself said that "he came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it." 
  • The "new covenant" asserts that Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice so that animals no longer had to be slaughtered to appease god for the sin. But did the actual commandments change? Do crustaceans (Leviticus 9:10) and various physical deformities (Leviticus 21:17-23) (that he supposedly created) still offend god? Can you really respond to any troublesome commandment with "Oh that was the old covenant" as if still does not profane the lord? Does not one who loves god want to "keep his commands?" (John 14:15)

Are we supposed to kill entire tribes (Exodus 32:27) or not kill at all (Exodus 20:13)? Are lying lips some kind of abomination to the Lord (Proverbs 12:22) or does god "put a lying spirit in the mouth of prophets," (I Kings 22:23)? Is it by grace we are saved (Ephesians 2:8-9) or through works (James 2:24)? And no, do not give me bullshit about how being saved by grace results in works, James is clear about how one is "saved." Does god show his face (Genesis 32:30) or not at all (John 1:18)? Does god want each man to bear his own burdens (Galatians 6:5) or bear each others' (Galatians 6:2)? (yes, that was three verses later.) These are only a few examples of being totally unsure what actually pleases god. You have an issue before you:

 

EITHER certain OT behaviors are still acceptable to god, because he is unchanging, and our western practices of "morality" deeply offend god (such as no longer owning slaves, not beating slaves to within an inch of their life, eating shellfish or bacon, not making people with physical deformities leave the church, not stoning a woman found not to be a virgin or who was raped and didn't scream lout enough, not raping our way into marriage, not being happy to dash our little ones against rocks or, or not stoning rebellious teenagers) OR god changed his mind about sin and he finds abominable showing that his capable of changing his own standard.