MatthewBurke Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 4) Where in the Bible does Jesus say that people must worship him or pray to him? Doesn't he identify himself as the "Son of Man" who was sent by the Father? John 14:12-14 (King James Version) 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. Ephesians 5:18-21 (King James Version) 18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; 19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; 20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; 21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. And pretty much every other example of prayer we find in the Bible, these were just a few exaples where Jesus's name was used specifically or He was speaking about Himself. Jesus is God is The Holy Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewBurke Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 5) Jesus himself and his disciples seem to believe in reincarnation, as evidenced in Matthew 11:10-15, Matthew 17:10-13 and John 9:1-2. Why is the word of Paul in Hebrews 9:27 taken over Jesus in Christian doctrine? Matthew 11:10-15 (King James Version) 10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Reincarnation?... What?... Matthew 17:10-13 (King James Version) 10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? 11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. Read it again and read Matthew 17:13 twice if you need to... Reincarnation?... What?... John 9:1-2 (King James Version) 1And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Uhhhh... I'm not even typing it again... The closest you will ever get to Reincarnation is Incarnation, when God became a man who we call Jesus. Unless you want to put resurrection in the same category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Mods we have an apologist on our hands. I move that MatthewBurke be designated for what he is... an apologist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 1) Which one better describes an all-loving God: a.) One that gives human beings one chance only to get it right and if you don't condemns you to an eternal hell, or b.) One that allows you multiple chances to get it right so that you can spend eternity in the best place possible? The answer is neither, but rather a Just God. If were a judge in an American court, and a man guilty of murder came to me humbly bringing evidence of all the people he wanted to murder but did not, and evidence of the good he had done in his life including saving a man from a burning car, donating to the poor, and a plethora of other "good deeds". Would it be fair and just of me to weigh his good against his bad and let him walk free? Of course not. The same is true with our God, but on a far grander scale. If we break His rules, we must be judged accordingly. You mean in the sense that a man comes to the court accused of running a red light, but he's been a good citizen, helping the community and been a moral and ethical person in every other aspect, he deserves to be tortured for years until death finally save him from his pain? Oh, I forgot, no its more like a person tortured for eternity because he just didn't find the evidence for a particular god entity that required a human sacrifice (in the same style as pagan religions), convincing enough? The infinite punishment for the finite oversight. Btw, isn't it in god's best interest and really god's responsibility to make sure that people get convincing arguments and evidence so they can believe? If someone doesn't believe because they haven't seen enough or heard enough, is that really that persons fault, or is it god's fault of not providing it? Besides that, you are not judged by a judge in America but by a jury of 12 peers. That was changed several hundred years ago. Did you just wake up from a 200 year long sleep??? What you compare to is the old fashioned court that is still used in Muslim countries, but not in the western world anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 2) People who speak of "hell" associate it with divine punishment, but punishment is usually used as a corrective measure. How do people suffering in an eternal hell learn their lesson? Doesn't that make hell mere torture with absolutely no point to it? It's not a matter of punishment, we only view it as that because....well, a world of fire and brimstone sounds pretty punishing. The fact is that we all serve something. Some choose to serve God, some serve themselves, some serve a hobby that they dearly enjoy, and sadly some even knowingly serve Lucifer. If we are not with Him we are against Him, and we have no place in the place He has created for us. So more directly, if you do not serve Him, the true and living God, then ultimately you serve Lucifer the temporary ruler of this earth. And as a result, those who choose this path do have a place in the place he (Lucifer) has created...and that's well...less that appealing... He's George W Bush? That explains the whole Jesus Camp thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Mods we have an apologist on our hands. I move that MatthewBurke be designated for what he is... an apologist. Not even a good one... I read the text that he claims counter reincarnation and both imply that JtB is Elias (sic) returned... thus Reincarnation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewBurke Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Well, there's another problem too. We are comparing an all knowing fair and just God to a corrupt judicial system where we feel we cannot trust one person to make a fair decision. But in the end my answer to question number two better explains because it's not even really a matter of being fair or just... but a matter of who we choose to serve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 So, you've picked who you say 'Yes Massa' to... how nice... you're here why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewBurke Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Mods we have an apologist on our hands. I move that MatthewBurke be designated for what he is... an apologist. Not even a good one... I read the text that he claims counter reincarnation and both imply that JtB is Elias (sic) returned... thus Reincarnation... I wish I had a red button that made an err noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewBurke Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Oops..I guess that was kinda trollish of me...sorry. lol? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewBurke Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 So, you've picked who you say 'Yes Massa' to... how nice... you're here why? Because the term "Ex-Christian" caught my eye. Mostly because they doesn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewBurke Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 2) People who speak of "hell" associate it with divine punishment, but punishment is usually used as a corrective measure. How do people suffering in an eternal hell learn their lesson? Doesn't that make hell mere torture with absolutely no point to it? It's not a matter of punishment, we only view it as that because....well, a world of fire and brimstone sounds pretty punishing. The fact is that we all serve something. Some choose to serve God, some serve themselves, some serve a hobby that they dearly enjoy, and sadly some even knowingly serve Lucifer. If we are not with Him we are against Him, and we have no place in the place He has created for us. So more directly, if you do not serve Him, the true and living God, then ultimately you serve Lucifer the temporary ruler of this earth. And as a result, those who choose this path do have a place in the place he (Lucifer) has created...and that's well...less that appealing... He's George W Bush? That explains the whole Jesus Camp thing. Actually this was even more trollish than mine. Will you be my Jedi master? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewBurke Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Boooo. There's no edit button! Know i can't not phix my ah some spelene when i sea it. Or can I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 So, you've picked who you say 'Yes Massa' to... how nice... you're here why? Because the term "Ex-Christian" caught my eye. Mostly because they doesn't exist. Really? How so? Is it like the Hotel California? If so, I'll be taking the colitas to my room... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Mods we have an apologist on our hands. I move that MatthewBurke be designated for what he is... an apologist. Not even a good one... I read the text that he claims counter reincarnation and both imply that JtB is Elias (sic) returned... thus Reincarnation... I wish I had a red button that made an err noise. That's nice... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewBurke Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 So, you've picked who you say 'Yes Massa' to... how nice... you're here why? Because the term "Ex-Christian" caught my eye. Mostly because they doesn't exist. Really? How so? Is it like the Hotel California? If so, I'll be taking the colitas to my room... Not at all. To be Christian is to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. To know Him. That being said, you either knew Christ and have since turned your back on Him, or you never knew Him in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 So, it's like alcoholism... one is always an alcoholic... How can one 'know' a mythical dead man? Sounds like a form of induced MPD or some other psychotic episode. that is certainly the underpinning of the circular reasoning of an objective existence for the Christ. I assume you're using circular reasoning next as to why the Bible is accurate... BTW there are far better translations than the KJV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Not at all. To be Christian is to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. To know Him. You ever shake his hand? That being said, you either knew Christ and have since turned your back on Him, or you never knew Him in the first place. Bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Pithy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 So, you've picked who you say 'Yes Massa' to... how nice... you're here why? Because the term "Ex-Christian" caught my eye. Mostly because they doesn't exist. Really? How so? Is it like the Hotel California? If so, I'll be taking the colitas to my room... Not at all. To be Christian is to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. To know Him. That being said, you either knew Christ and have since turned your back on Him, or you never knew Him in the first place. First of all I have to say Grandpa Harley I love all your posts.. Hotel California...yeah you can never leave Matthew believe me we all DID KNOW him. But we all had the courage to question what we were told to accept. I went through grief when I realized my imaginary friend was just IMAGINARY. Luckily that didn't last long and now I'm one of the happiest EX-christians you would ever want to meet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewBurke Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 So, it's like alcoholism... one is always an alcoholic... How can one 'know' a mythical dead man? Sounds like a form of induced MPD or some other psychotic episode. that is certainly the underpinning of the circular reasoning of an objective existence for the Christ. I assume you're using circular reasoning next as to why the Bible is accurate... BTW there are far better translations than the KJV lol There is more historical evidence that Jesus existed than there is that Julius Caesar existed. The Roman empire was not exactly a group of amatures that smoked their pipe one day and decided to make a city. If you want to get on a... did Jesus exist debate, I'm not even going to waste my time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewBurke Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Not at all. To be Christian is to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. To know Him. You ever shake his hand? That being said, you either knew Christ and have since turned your back on Him, or you never knew Him in the first place. Bullshit. George Washington isn't real. Did you ever shake his hand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Because the term "Ex-Christian" caught my eye. Mostly because they doesn't exist. Funny you should say that, then immediately say this:Not at all. To be Christian is to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. To know Him. That being said, you either knew Christ and have since turned your back on Him, or you never knew Him in the first place. Either we doesn't exist, or we does. Which is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewBurke Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 So, you've picked who you say 'Yes Massa' to... how nice... you're here why? Because the term "Ex-Christian" caught my eye. Mostly because they doesn't exist. Really? How so? Is it like the Hotel California? If so, I'll be taking the colitas to my room... Not at all. To be Christian is to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. To know Him. That being said, you either knew Christ and have since turned your back on Him, or you never knew Him in the first place. First of all I have to say Grandpa Harley I love all your posts.. Hotel California...yeah you can never leave Matthew believe me we all DID KNOW him. But we all had the courage to question what we were told to accept. I went through grief when I realized my imaginary friend was just IMAGINARY. Luckily that didn't last long and now I'm one of the happiest EX-christians you would ever want to meet! How do you know something that is imaginary? If you still think he was and is imaginary then not only are you a fool, but as I said before, you never knew Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewBurke Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Because the term "Ex-Christian" caught my eye. Mostly because they doesn't exist. Funny you should say that, then immediately say this:Not at all. To be Christian is to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. To know Him. That being said, you either knew Christ and have since turned your back on Him, or you never knew Him in the first place. Either we doesn't exist, or we does. Which is it? Boooo. There's no edit button! Know i can't not phix my ah some spelene when i sea it. Or can I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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