Ouroboros Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Pithy Well, it's kind of odd for me to be short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 So, you've picked who you say 'Yes Massa' to... how nice... you're here why? Because the term "Ex-Christian" caught my eye. Mostly because they doesn't exist. Really? How so? Is it like the Hotel California? If so, I'll be taking the colitas to my room... Not at all. To be Christian is to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. To know Him. That being said, you either knew Christ and have since turned your back on Him, or you never knew Him in the first place. First of all I have to say Grandpa Harley I love all your posts.. Hotel California...yeah you can never leave Matthew believe me we all DID KNOW him. But we all had the courage to question what we were told to accept. I went through grief when I realized my imaginary friend was just IMAGINARY. Luckily that didn't last long and now I'm one of the happiest EX-christians you would ever want to meet! How do you know something that is imaginary? If you still think he was and is imaginary then not only are you a fool, but as I said before, you never knew Him. Wow it just does not compute with you does it. I'm a fool according to the bible. This is the core of the problem. You assume the bible is infalable. The bible is full of errors, contradictions, and myths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewBurke Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 So, you've picked who you say 'Yes Massa' to... how nice... you're here why? Because the term "Ex-Christian" caught my eye. Mostly because they doesn't exist. Really? How so? Is it like the Hotel California? If so, I'll be taking the colitas to my room... Not at all. To be Christian is to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. To know Him. That being said, you either knew Christ and have since turned your back on Him, or you never knew Him in the first place. First of all I have to say Grandpa Harley I love all your posts.. Hotel California...yeah you can never leave Matthew believe me we all DID KNOW him. But we all had the courage to question what we were told to accept. I went through grief when I realized my imaginary friend was just IMAGINARY. Luckily that didn't last long and now I'm one of the happiest EX-christians you would ever want to meet! How do you know something that is imaginary? If you still think he was and is imaginary then not only are you a fool, but as I said before, you never knew Him. Wow it just does not compute with you does it. I'm a fool according to the bible. This is the core of the problem. You assume the bible is infalable. The bible is full of errors, contradictions, and myths. Show me. I'm going home from work for the day. So you have plenty of time to search. I'll be back in the office tomorrow around 10am'ish MST and we can chitchat more then. Bye everyone for now. Have a good rest of your day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 QUOTE(MatthewBurke @ Jun 20 2007, 04:55 PM) *Boooo. There's no edit button! sad.gif Know i can't not phix my ah some spelene when i sea it. sad.gif Or can I? Regardless... What's the answer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Actually, the Indians make reference to the Roman Caesars contemporary to them, as do the Chinese, since they both traded to along the Silk and Spice road. So do the Persians and the Jews. There are even Viking records of Julius, and the later Caesars due to trade. The Greeks also make reference to Julius, as did the Egyptians (in Coptic if memory serves) Virtually every literate society of the old world knows of Julius Caesar during his life time. In the case of Jesus we have... the Bible, which was written between 50 to 100 years after the events described... so the canard of Jesus compared to Caesar is laid to rest... And Rome antedated Julius by a long way. He was the first Emperor, but the old Republic owned pretty much all the lands the Empire did after Julius became Emperor. So, I'm not sure what you're getting at with your comment "The Roman empire was not exactly a group of amatures[sic] that smoked their pipe one day and decided to make a city." And I think it is I who is wasting his time... One final point, there are still more accurate to the Greek translations than the KJV... and in more modern English for the less classicist among us... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 There is more historical evidence that Jesus existed than there is that Julius Caesar existed. Julius is printed on coins, and depicted with statues. And also Julius Caesar wrote himself the Commentarii. So where's the coins with Jesus face and the statues? And what did Jesus write? The Roman empire was not exactly a group of amatures that smoked their pipe one day and decided to make a city. If you want to get on a... did Jesus exist debate, I'm not even going to waste my time. Exactly, the Roman Empire wasn't a bunch of losers, and they didn't write about Jesus even with their extensive historical precision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 So, you've picked who you say 'Yes Massa' to... how nice... you're here why? Because the term "Ex-Christian" caught my eye. Mostly because they doesn't exist. Really? How so? Is it like the Hotel California? If so, I'll be taking the colitas to my room... Not at all. To be Christian is to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. To know Him. That being said, you either knew Christ and have since turned your back on Him, or you never knew Him in the first place. First of all I have to say Grandpa Harley I love all your posts.. Hotel California...yeah you can never leave Matthew believe me we all DID KNOW him. But we all had the courage to question what we were told to accept. I went through grief when I realized my imaginary friend was just IMAGINARY. Luckily that didn't last long and now I'm one of the happiest EX-christians you would ever want to meet! How do you know something that is imaginary? If you still think he was and is imaginary then not only are you a fool, but as I said before, you never knew Him. Wow it just does not compute with you does it. I'm a fool according to the bible. This is the core of the problem. You assume the bible is infalable. The bible is full of errors, contradictions, and myths. Show me. I'm going home from work for the day. So you have plenty of time to search. I'll be back in the office tomorrow around 10am'ish MST and we can chitchat more then. Bye everyone for now. Have a good rest of your day! Office? I though he was about 14... They have child labour in the MST states? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Are we running a book on whether that was a cut and run or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jun Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 There is more historical evidence that Jesus existed than there is that Julius Caesar existed. Really? Where is this "evidence?" Can you please provide it? Unlike the mythical Jesus Christ, we know what Caesar looked like and we have a complete history of his life. In turn, general, orator, historian, statesman and lawgiver. We have words written by Caesar himself and words written by both his friends and his enemies. Artifacts confirm his life and death, as do his successors. Caesar established a style of government – and a calendar – which endured for centuries. Caesar was an eyewitness to many of the events he describes in his commentaries. He wrote not for posterity but to have an immediate impact on the power players in Rome as he schemed to advance his own career. The elapsed time between the wars and Caesar's own writing was a matter of months or at most a few years. In contrast, the elapsed time between the gospel reports and the supposed events that they describe is at least 40 years for 'Mark' and 60-70 years for the other three Gospels. And just who was witness to that fabulous nativity, 30-odd years before the grande finale? At the most generous understanding, 'Luke' and 'Matthew' were recording hearsay testimony a century after angels, shepherds and wise men went calling. The unembellished truth is that the gospel accounts were written by eyewitnesses to nothing but their own skills of fabrication. For good reason, based on spatial and temporal proximity alone, historians give more credence to Caesar's commentaries than to the gospels, no matter how prolifically they were copied. - Kenneth Humphreys "Jesus Never Existed." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Show me. Do you mean contradictions? Something like that Moses was told by Jahweh that no one, not even Abraham, knew God by the name Jahweh, and yet in early in Genesis you can read how Abraham prayed and called on the name Jahweh... Either the writer/author of the Genesis book was stupid or forgetful or Jahweh was stupid or forgetful. Which way is it? I'm going home from work for the day. So you have plenty of time to search. Search? You mean, look up the bible verses for you? Heck no. We can tell you, and you look it up. We have plenty. I'm thinking of a bunch more from the top of my head as I type this. I'll be back in the office tomorrow around 10am'ish MST and we can chitchat more then. Too bad. So few Christians dare to come here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Office? I though he was about 14... They have child labour in the MST states? Good one. Maybe he was visiting dad? The summer break has just started for some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Explains the 10am start... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 As to contradictions... are we limiting it to NT only or the lot? My favourite NT blooper is the genealogy of Jesus. How many paternal grandfathers can one person usefully have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Not at all. To be Christian is to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. To know Him. You ever shake his hand? That being said, you either knew Christ and have since turned your back on Him, or you never knew Him in the first place. Bullshit. George Washington isn't real. Did you ever shake his hand? Do you ever read your own posts? 1. You claim you have a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPT with Jesus Christ. 2. I ask: Do you ever shake his hand? 3. You compare my question and your statement to the existence of George Washington Now the 10,000,000 dollar question is... did I ever claim my question had anything to do with Jesus existing in history or that if I had some kind of a personal relationship with George Washinton??? If you say you have a personal relationship with Jesus, I can say I don't, and I don't have a personal relationship with G.W, but I do have a personal relationship with my wife, who I can hug, poke, shake hands with or I can flip her nose with my finger... can you do that with George Washington? No, you can't. Can you do it with Jesus? No, you can't. So Jesus, currently, right now, in this moment, in this room, and in your room, in this world, year 2007, Jesus does not exist any more than George Washinton!!! I'm glad that you have to agree with me. You don't have a personal relationship with Jesus after all. (You prove my theory that some people have larger shoe size than IQ.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 As to contradictions... are we limiting it to NT only or the lot? I wonder how many more you'd get if you include the apocrypha and all the non canonic gospels? My favourite NT blooper is the genealogy of Jesus. How many paternal grandfathers can one person usefully have? And the counting, the whole "7 generations" doesn't add in one of them, but apologists of course put a little spin on it. I wonder why the Bible never give the answers the apologists has to know? Why does one have to go to a 10 years bible school to learn how to defend what the bible says? It's not that obvious after all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jun Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 ........when God became a man who we call Jesus From - http://www.jesuspolice.com/common_error.php?id=1 Jesus' real name in pre-exilic Hebrew was Yehoshua or in the Second Temple period Yeshua or Joshua. When the English rendered the Latin IESVS from the Greeks who translated the Semitic name Yeshua they came up with Jesus (Yehoshua became Yeshua became Iesous became Jesus), and that name stuck. But his real name in his own language was Yeshua, which was a very good name in the Hebrew tradition. It meant – "Yahweh (God) is savior (helper)". Josephus mentions more than 20 Joshuas, the most famous of whom was the "Son of Nun" (Exodus, 33:11), from the tribe of Ephraim, who was the successor to Moses as the leader of the Israelites. We remember him best as the trumpeter who blew down the walls of Jericho. What is not so well known is that Nun in Hebrew means fish, the symbol of life, especially for Galileans who lived by the Sea of Galilee. Interestingly enough, the symbol of the fish became associated with Jesus, as did the fact that the start of the Age of Pisces (symbolized by the fish) represented the start of the "end of times", since Pisces was the last symbol of the Zodiac, and the start of the new age coincided with Jesus' birth. Moreover, the symbol for "Nun" is equivalent in the Jewish gematria to the number 50, which represents freedom and the fullness of life, and Nun is the fourteenth letter of the Hebrew alphabet, the number 14 symbolizing David, the King of Israel. Thus, in many ways the name Joshua was a very holy name and had many connotations that later became associated with Jesus' life (e.g., Jesus was said to be descended from David, was said to be a "fisher of men", preached the "end of times", etc.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 George Washington? The least he could have done is use someone that can't literally be dug up. I do have to say our latest fundie has demonstrated quite the command of 7th grade apologetics. iIt's more than apparent he doesn't know that much about his religion. Should we confuse him with Arminianism vs. Calvinism or ask him his beliefs on Dispensationalism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 There is more historical evidence that Jesus existed than there is that Julius Caesar existed. Really? Where is this "evidence?" Can you please provide it? I wouldn't count on a good answer to this...if I recall my apologists correct this is a quote from Josh McDowel...who is quite possibly the most stupid and illogical of all the apologists I've read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Follier Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Well, I will be checking back throughout the day tomorrow also. I sure hope I get to throw a few jabs... err... pose a few questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewBurke Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 A personal relationship does not require physical contact, Eg. shaking someones hand. As of yesterday I now have personal relationships with all of you and yet I have never met you in the flesh. Prayer is the best example I can give, but to the "Spiritually Unplugged" it will make no sense. The "Ex-Christian" does not exist, or at least not in the sense that it has been revealed so far. The only Ex-Christian that could exist would be the person that knew and still knows Christ but has turned their back on Him, which is also called rebellion. The person that most commonly refers to themselves as a "Ex-Christian" is a person that was raised in a Christian home; or had peers that either were or at least called themselves Christians, and accepted it solely because it's how they were influenced and not because they knew Christ. I would challenge anyone that truly knows what it means to do something with an open heart to ask Him to enter your life. Now certainly there are those that will do this, but with a condescending attitude and to them I would ask why they even bother. But to those that have an open heart and are solely looking for truth I propose this challenge. I did it ten years ago now and have never regretted the decision. There's a number of ways to prove the existence of God, but revelation is the ultimate proof to any individual. As far as the snide remarks, feel free to post them but I will not respond and they will be in vein. If you want to have a conversation or debate about something I would enjoy that. My only reason for being here is that some of you (including those that only read these boards) might "see the light" for the sake of a better phrase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Well then, my little missionary, feel free to dismantle the objections outlined above... But I wouldn't expect a smooth ride because the objections that you've given thus far are pretty easily dismantled with the comment 'circular argument' The comments that there's more history of Jesus than either Julius Caesar, or George Washington have already bee taken apart. To reiterate my comments, the French, Spaniards and British, to my knowledge have records of Washington and dealings with Washington... in fact they have letters signed by Washington... The Persians, the Greeks and the Egyptians certainly have no record contemporaneous to Jesus. No contemporaneous record of his life exists. There isn't a single document out side the bible that references him. Unlike Washington or Julius) Address that... Or how many paternal Grandfathers did Joseph have? Or did Paul see someone, just a bright light and a voice, or just a voice on the road to Damascus? Do you rely on the Johanite comma to justify the Trinity? Are you a KJV 1611 only Christian, or do you use others? Young's Literal? The Jerusalem Bible? Did the people with him see anything or nothing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 The answer is neither, but rather a Just God. If were a judge in an American court, and a man guilty of murder came to me humbly bringing evidence of all the people he wanted to murder but did not, and evidence of the good he had done in his life including saving a man from a burning car, donating to the poor, and a plethora of other "good deeds". Would it be fair and just of me to weigh his good against his bad and let him walk free? Of course not. The same is true with our God, but on a far grander scale. If we break His rules, we must be judged accordingly. But we are talking about the sin of disbelief here, not murder. In the US court system is it illegal to disbelieve something? It sounds like they are more just then than your god. And if we are going to bring in the US court system, is it just for someone else to pay your price? For example, I murder Tom. Instead of going to jail though, Harry agrees to serve my sentence for me. Is that just? But let's make it more realistic; or rather, more accurate according to your belief system. I murder Tom. Harry agrees to stand in my stead, but instead of sitting in prison for life, or accepting the death penalty, Harry sits in jail for three days and says "It is finished." I'm sure you will say Jesus served out a death sentence, but come on. You and I and Tom, Dick and Harry all know that god-boy Jesus only (supposedly) sat in the corner for a blip in the time of eternity. How can an immortal serve a death sentence? The very idea is preposterous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Follier Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Matthew, I'd love the change to go toe-to-toe with you. I'm looking for my first deconvert. Might as well be you. I'm also chipping away at my parents too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 If we are not with Him we are against Him Are you sure your name is not Mathew W. Burke? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Follier Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 If we are not with Him we are against Him Are you sure your name is not Mathew W. Burke? So that's where God got that line! Makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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