Ouroboros Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 I understand most points of view. I think I understand why people leave Christianity. In your case it was the situation with your son. I don't know why bad things happen when you have done nothing bad. It's also hard for me to find out why good people (my fellows, my parents and so on) suffer. But I look at this with philosophy. I never gave up on the idea that God is good. It's the sense of my life. I have never been in a situation like you. I wish I could understand you better. My situation was more than just my son, but it was definitely the largest and most contributing to my de-conversion. I have come to the realization that it was many things that all together, and several experiences, that led me to lose my trust (or faith) in the book and in the teachings. I had to find the real definition of God and the real belief to have, and that's very I instead lost it all and so far nothing has really attract my interest. Or let me rephrase that, many beliefs has interested me, but none of them have shown any signs of being "true" or valid for a trust or belief. Regarding "God is good", have you ever had a problem with the things God supposedly do in the Old Testament? Do you consider God killing thousands of people as good? Does this mean your definition of "a good God" is "whatever God does is good, even if it seems evil to us"? Doesn't this mean your definition of "good" is different for when God is good, and when humans are good, and you pretty much have lost any real meaning of the word, since if God would destroy this universe and send everyone to eternal torture regardless of your faith, then it is still good because that is the definition. What kind of authority sets the standard for the goodness of God? None. Right? God doesn't follow a moral or ethical code for being good. God doesn't have a God to obey too. God's morality and goodness is without control or balance and it leads to the conclusion that either we as humans can also be good without a supreme being, or God is not really good at all but he is both good and evil, yin and yang, balance of all things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Spirit is love that lead to all truth - not frontal lobe that recognize pattern. We are intellegent creatures, [Go ahead, I'm ready] who are able to see pattern and act accordingly, but it is ego that gets in the way. Spirit tames the ego, so we are better able to find harmony with all that is. Are we moral because we're intelligent, or are we intelligent because we're moral? Or is moral something completely different from intelligence? Still, I haven't really gotten a good understanding of your "Love" concept. Is "love" anything that God say it is? So when God drowned the army of Pharaoh it was love? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 No, we see it the same - God wants nothing, He just is. We live within His being. God has law that govern [regulate] all things that exist within Him. He didn't create law for man, but law benefit man when respected. [it's the nature of the machine] I'm not quite sure we see it exactly the same. Don't you believe God is a sentient being with a free will and ability to processing thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 There are many ways to see God, but that doesn't make one's idea about God true. God cannot be comprehended, which is one reason why I view God as all that is. God is all that is, but I cannot comprhend what that ultimately entails. Mind exist, therefore God is mind. Spirit exist, therefor God is Spirit, matter exist, therefore God is matter. All of these things in thier entirety is what make up God. We live in God, and God lives in us - [All in All] From the start, you've been expounding on how the way you see God is the True way to see God. You are certain that God is in all... you are certain that what you believe is the truth... you are certain that how others see God is wrong. However, since you cannot comprehend God, what you see as God is NOT what God is... therefore you have shown that you do not have the Truth about God at all, and that what you tell us is the truth is no such thing. Why do you try to lead people away from God, by promoting something that you KNOW is false? FYI... the only way you can get out of that dilemma is to insist that you can comprehend God after all... which you've already proclaimed cannot be done, therefore if you do claim you can, you're lying. On second thoughts, there is no way out... you've just dug yourself into a hole that there is no way out of. Of course, you can just say that it's the truth for you... that's no problem at all. Well, except for the little problem that you've been going on about how that is the truth about God. But what the heck... it's not like anyone's going to remember you saying that, or quote it in a post that points out how it's a problem..... Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 The bible is not true. jesus is based upon the story of the fall of man as being true. that is what the hebrew religion is based on and later the christians when they hijacked the religion and god from the Jews. that makes the story of jesus to be absolutely false in theology and in writings. genesis did not happen therefore, the fall of man did not happen, and therefore, jesus is not needed to atone for anything. It is not true in its entirety, you are correct. This does not suggest that there is no truth to be found in bible. The same is true for all religious texts [imo] It is painfully obvious that we have fallen out of harmony with all that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 No, we see it the same - God wants nothing, He just is. We live within His being. God has law that govern [regulate] all things that exist within Him. He didn't create law for man, but law benefit man when respected. [it's the nature of the machine] I'm not quite sure we see it exactly the same. Don't you believe God is a sentient being with a free will and ability to processing thoughts? He does.. and you must see it that way, or he's just managed to say something that's plain wrong. God forbid that someone who cannot comprehend God could ever be wrong about God in any way, shape or form... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 The bible is not true. jesus is based upon the story of the fall of man as being true. that is what the hebrew religion is based on and later the christians when they hijacked the religion and god from the Jews. that makes the story of jesus to be absolutely false in theology and in writings. genesis did not happen therefore, the fall of man did not happen, and therefore, jesus is not needed to atone for anything. It is not true in its entirety, you are correct. This does not suggest that there is no truth to be found in bible. The same is true for all religious texts [imo] It is painfully obvious that we have fallen out of harmony with all that is. *ahem* There is no right way to read the Bible at all... it's been edited and translated and mis-translated and twisted over and over throughout history. It contains falsified works, and has for at least 1800 years. Whenever you read it, you are reading someones interpretation of an edited, twisted, mis-translated, interpreted, edited, twisted, mis-translated interpretation of an oral history that has also been twisted, mis-heard, mis-told, "jazzed up" and enhanced from several contradictory stories... and if you think that can give you even the slightest bit of truth then you're incredibly gullible. Any chance you'll get the point sometime soon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 homosexuality is sin. Why? Because as a child of my parents I don't want to call my mother George. Troll Can we have this fucker banned? He's already dropped the 'Faggot' bomb, then the coward edited, now this... he's working on being a troll... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 God is all that is, but I cannot comprhend what that ultimately entails. Mind exist, therefore God is mind. Spirit exist, therefor God is Spirit, matter exist, therefore God is matter. Uhm... God *is* my poop too? Interesting idea... Seems almost sacrilegious to flush... This "Christian's" crap is identical to the posts of a pagan on an msn group I was part of two years ago. I had much respect for that man. His posts were influential in getting me out of Christianity. His posts were genuine and well-thought-out. This person is spouting stuff a mile a minute or faster. It's an "anything goes" religion so far as I can see. He calls it Christianity just because he chooses to call it so. Not good enough. No wonder he thinks we "shrug off" Christianity. Or was that some other liberal bullshit blower? They're beginning to look all the same. They take religion lightly so they assume we take it lightly. BULLSHIT!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 I'm not quite sure we see it exactly the same. Don't you believe God is a sentient being with a free will and ability to processing thoughts? God wants nothing, needs nothing for He is everything. Yes, He is mind [mind exist] yes He is spirit [spirit exist] yes He is matter [matter exist] He is not personal - He does not demand anything from us, nor does He thinks like we do -- Within His being exists law that when respected is beneficial to man, and all creatures. Spirit tames our ego, and enables us to become aware of all things in God and live in Harmony with Him. [Love is the answer] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 You are certain that God is in all... you are certain that what you believe is the truth... you are certain that how others see God is wrong. However, since you cannot comprehend God, what you see as God is NOT what God is... therefore you have shown that you do not have the Truth about God at all, and that what you tell us is the truth is no such thing. Why do you try to lead people away from God, by promoting something that you KNOW is false? FYI... the only way you can get out of that dilemma is to insist that you can comprehend God after all... which you've already proclaimed cannot be done, therefore if you do claim you can, you're lying. On second thoughts, there is no way out... you've just dug yourself into a hole that there is no way out of. Of course, you can just say that it's the truth for you... that's no problem at all. Well, except for the little problem that you've been going on about how that is the truth about God. But what the heck... it's not like anyone's going to remember you saying that, or quote it in a post that points out how it's a problem..... Right? God is all that is, and all that will ever be - God is existance. [Take it, or leave it] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 This "Christian's" crap is identical to the posts of a pagan on an msn group I was part of two years ago. I had much respect for that man. His posts were influential in getting me out of Christianity. His posts were genuine and well-thought-out. This person is spouting stuff a mile a minute or faster. It's an "anything goes" religion so far as I can see. He calls it Christianity just because he chooses to call it so. Not good enough. No wonder he thinks we "shrug off" Christianity. Or was that some other liberal bullshit blower? They're beginning to look all the same. They take religion lightly so they assume we take it lightly. BULLSHIT!!!! I call [myslef] a Christian because I follow Christ -You fail to see where I am coming from, but that is o.k. Not all will see that Christ is Spirit, and Spirit is Love, and Love is law, and ultimate authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WarrantedPVC Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Yes, it seems to be changing, but only because you are beginning to see where I'm coming from. I don't think that's the case, I don't think you have presented a clear picture of the "mechanism of atonement". In fact, I think your two statements are in contradiction with each other. So let me ask you another time, in another way: Why exactly did Jesus have to suffer/die innocently if God isn't angry with people? Why exactly is it suffering/death that enabled an almighty God to make humans "reconciled with him"? The Christian community has also condemned me [like you] I have no place to lay may head, so to speak. What?? I have condemned you?? 1United, I was once like you. I too felt rejected, and I too went trying to convince people all over the place of what I believed was the truth. Condemning you would be like condemning myself. No, I don't condemn either you or anyone else. I no more do such things, I learned that "the hard way" during my deconversion. I understand what you're doing because I was doing the same, and I don't think you're doing anything "wrong" by doing it, other than perhaps hurting yourself (which may be good or bad for you, I can't tell). But I value intellectual integrity and that's why I am asking you to clarify your contradicting statements. PVC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 God is all that is, and all that will ever be - God is existance. So sayeth the Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 You want proof? Here it is: Jesus DID live and there are documents describing his existence! Okan, please scan or photograph and upload images of said documents, and also please mail them to a research institute so scientists can determine their age and whether or not they are likely to be real and not forgeries of some kind. Unless of course, you are referring to the Bible itself, which proves nothing. Surely if such documents are real, it will make the news big time and convince others of your position. You are willing to attempt to provide absolute proof, once and for all, are you not? I will be checking CNN regularly to see if your proof has made the headlines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 I call [myslef] a Christian because I follow Christ -You fail to see where I am coming from, but that is o.k. Not all will see that Christ is Spirit, and Spirit is Love, and Love is law, and ultimate authority. Other than being a pompous arse who thinks he can lead people somewhere, how else do you think you're like Jesus? How about accepting stolen goods? That donkey was nicked... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 The mechanism for [atonement] is life in Spirit. It is a beautiful thing that Christ offered Himself as a perfect sacrifice for us all. His love for us transended the pain He endured. "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do" Even after [We] placed Him on the cross, He was forgiving. If this isn't an example of Love, then I don't know what is. Did the cross save us from our sins? Not exactly...Christ saves us from our sins, not what happened on the cross. The cross is a symbol associated with death, and suffering. All of which we must take part in ourselves. "Take up your cross and follow me" "He who loses his life for my namesake shall keep it" Salvation only comes when we accept Christ, and live in like manner, embracing and living in His Love for us. Forgiveness of sins comes [imo] when we accept that we are forgiven, and seek to end the cycle of sin, and suffering. I was speaking of how Christian community condemn [you] Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 I call [myslef] a Christian because I follow Christ -You fail to see where I am coming from, but that is o.k. Not all will see that Christ is Spirit, and Spirit is Love, and Love is law, and ultimate authority. Other than being a pompous arse who thinks he can lead people somewhere, how else do you think you're like Jesus? How about accepting stolen goods? That donkey was nicked... It is the Spirit that leads, I plant seeds... I'm not like Jesus, other than I attempt to live through Spirit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 God wants nothing, needs nothing for He is everything. Yes, He is mind [mind exist] yes He is spirit [spirit exist] yes He is matter [matter exist] He is not personal - He does not demand anything from us, nor does He thinks like we do -- Within His being exists law that when respected is beneficial to man, and all creatures. Spirit tames our ego, and enables us to become aware of all things in God and live in Harmony with Him. Then I guess we're closer than I thought. Though I don't use symbolic language to look at the world or understand these concepts. [Love is the answer] Hmm... not sure, since "Love" is not consistent in how it is acted out or felt. Language is vague, and a word like "love" can mean so many things that I don't take a leap to define the "all answer" phrase to just a single word. If someone got a slightly different understanding of what love means, immediately you two have two different answers. If love can be converted to 42 you might be on to something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 So the 'spirit' is sentient? this seems at odd with the Lovecraftian vision you have about what underlies all that is... Also the use of the word 'agape'... you're certainly not using it in any conventional way even for the Greek... so I'd like to see s glossary... And is it in 'the spirit' to accept stolen asses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 Life can be a Miracle Open your heart and see Virtue a path of beauty Existing in you and me Safe is this passage Always open [it is grace] Vice is but the darkness, Existing in its place Sit a bit, and think it over Absent until one can see Love is God's guiding hand Living Spirit, and Heavens key Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 God wants nothing, needs nothing for He is everything. Yes, He is mind [mind exist] yes He is spirit [spirit exist] yes He is matter [matter exist] He is not personal - He does not demand anything from us, nor does He thinks like we do -- Within His being exists law that when respected is beneficial to man, and all creatures. Spirit tames our ego, and enables us to become aware of all things in God and live in Harmony with Him. Then I guess we're closer than I thought. Though I don't use symbolic language to look at the world or understand these concepts. [Love is the answer] Hmm... not sure, since "Love" is not consistent in how it is acted out or felt. Language is vague, and a word like "love" can mean so many things that I don't take a leap to define the "all answer" phrase to just a single word. If someone got a slightly different understanding of what love means, immediately you two have two different answers. If love can be converted to 42 you might be on to something... That is why I say Christ [More often than not] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 So the 'spirit' is sentient? this seems at odd with the Lovecraftian vision you have about what underlies all that is... Also the use of the word 'agape'... you're certainly not using it in any conventional way even for the Greek... so I'd like to see s glossary... And is it in 'the spirit' to accept stolen asses? One accept stolen ass out of need - God supply [All belong to God] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Life can be a MiracleOpen your heart and see Virtue a path of beauty Existing in you and me Safe is this passage Always open [it is grace] Vice is but the darkness, Existing in its place Sit a bit, and think it over Absent until one can see Love is God's guiding hand Living Spirit, and Heavens key Put down the crack pipe, and answer the questions you ignorant muppet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 You want proof? Here it is: Jesus DID live and there are documents describing his existence! Well, of course there are. And there are documents describing Appolonius of Tyana. And there are documents describing Hercules. And there are documents describing Robin Hood. Damn. Do we need to go further? There is no compelling evidence for the gospel story being anything but a story. Actually, we could say "several" stories - since each gospel paints a different story of Jesus. Or - in the case of GJohn - describes a totally different Jesus. Trust me on this one. You can't provide proof for a historical Jesus. You can't even provide a convincing argument for it. Unless you're trying to convince the uninformed and gullible. And you'll need to visit a different forum for that audience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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