1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 so I think my question was/is still justified. I wasn't thinking "like an orthodox", I was using your post to attempt to think like you. But it's a bit difficult to do when what you think seems to be changing constantly... I [don']t know in the sense that my knowledge can be verified scientifically, but that doesn't make it any less a truth. Once you realize who the one true God really is, things begin to fall into place [imo] Of course, the fact that you can't prove an idea doesn't make it any less true or false. However, personally, I don't think it's morally right to claim an idea as truth when you don't know if it's the truth or not. It also does make me wonder how you can know with such certainty that you aren't being deceived by some evil power into this Buddhism/New Age/Christianity variant of your own. I know many Christians would argue you're misled by the devil and I have no indication that their claims are any more trustworthy (or true) than yours. PVC Yes, it seems to be changing, but only because you are beginning to see where I'm coming from. The Christian community has also condemned me [like you] I have no place to lay may head, so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Hans... do you know you are the only one who speaks more human-like if it's the right word? Well, I'm trying. I wasn't a couple of weeks ago. It's part of my new approach for this year. I can be just as cursing and pushy as anyone here, and I figured I wanted to balance it out a bit by trying to be nice to the visiting Christians... but believe me, it's not always easy... I still find it quite disturbing that people believe things and spout them as truths when to me it's like someone who wholeheartedly claim that Santa Claus is real. Most of the time I want to shout "grow up!" But I'm trying not to. Fear of hell? I don't think so, I'm Universalist. Do you think we have fear of hell? About peace... you have some points here. Okay. I never knew about Uni-s until I de-converted which makes it a bit difficult at time to approach subjects, because I only know completely all the errors in the theology of the versions of Christianity I came across. My point was that your comment sounded like you have a certain kind of fear for homosexuals. I sure did as a Christian. But now, even though I'm not gay, it doesn't scare me when people are. But the thing is, the concept of sin can't be define by what you consider as sin or what you fear. But on the other hand, the word "sin" is a religious word, defined within its own framework, so I can't really judge how it's done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WarrantedPVC Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Hans... I don't think it's fear. Hate? Maybe. I can't stand gay singers like Azis (if you have heard about him in Bulgaria you know what I'm talking about). But I know I'm wrong and my heart must turn to God so I must learn how to love people like him. I've always wondered what "hating" means... What can you "not stand" about him? Has he ever hurt you, or something? If he hasn't ever hurt you then what in the world can you have against him? Is it a psychological reaction to the way he looks that makes you feel uncomfortable, or his voice, or what? What exactly do you feel against him? You say it's not fear, then what is it? Disgust? Does that mean you then also "can't stand" other "disgusting" people like little babies who need nappies changed all the time, or old people who also need diapers and vomit and smell and drool and make strange noises and are sometimes mentally disabled too? I'm not saying you should "love" random people, especially if you don't fancy their looks, but for goodness' sake, you don't have to live with him in your house! Why can't he just be respected as another human person, only very different from you? Does "hating" mean you can't have genuine good wishes for him? Would you be totally unable to just email him "happy new year" and mean it sincerely from your heart? Doesn't he have the same rights to happiness that you do, unless he ends up hurting other people? How can someone have such strong feelings against another? Gosh, this whole thing sounds so strange to me... PVC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 It lives... I'm surprised it came back (I've not lifted its tail feather to see what it is...) TBH, I'd say we could answer more questions about Christianity, its insanity, its origins and how the bible was formed than most people who practice it... However, to allow the yawning chasm to swallow you or not... 1) 1 Tim 2 - Role women 2) Leviticus - Being gay... We have truth in bible, and we have egotistic view in bible - only Jesus was perfect. Bible written by man - many errors The bible is not true. jesus is based upon the story of the fall of man as being true. that is what the hebrew religion is based on and later the christians when they hijacked the religion and god from the Jews. that makes the story of jesus to be absolutely false in theology and in writings. genesis did not happen therefore, the fall of man did not happen, and therefore, jesus is not needed to atone for anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 1United, have you read any of Not_Scarevangelist? Do you think he has a good and efficient approach to reach people with his message, and do you think he has the right message at all when he say "repent" and his views on "sin" etc? Repent simply means to change ones ways. This we must do if we are going to live through the Spirit, or [Christ]. I don't agree with His approach per se, but I don't want to judge because my approach may not be any better, ya know? So why do you need to repent? And why would a person call out "repent", with the undertone of "or else"? If "sin" and "suffering" are ways to better understand ourself and grow and rid ourself of Ego, then to repent shouldn't be done in a haste, since you first have to learn the lesson and the repentance has to be because the Ego is subjected to repentance and not because someone just calls it out, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 Agreed. I hope 1United responds, too. I will. The reason i don't call myself a humanist is because I am a Christian. I recognize Christ as my savior, and not that of humanity saving self. I am humanist in that I realize that we are resonsible for what we do, but without the Spirit of Love [in its purest form] we will never become harmonious with existance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 I wonder if you'll miss the point again? There is truth to be found even in your post. Religion is not the truth - the truth is not religion. Truth is only truth - whether many religions have it in part right, or few. You missed it again... but I can't put it any simpler for you than this. BIBLE - BULLSHIT = NOTHING. Tell you what... if you want to get to the truth, dump religion entirely. That means everything... all religions, everything. Ideas from the Book of the Dead? Dump them. Stuff from Ancient Rome? Dump them. Dreamtime ideas from the Aborigines? Dump them. Norse beliefs? Hindu? Buddist? Shinto? Jewish? Muslim? Christian? Dump the lot. And that includes all the holy books too... don't keep any of the ideas. Done that? Now... by yourself, start your search for the truth. Search your mind... your feelings. If you truely believe God is in everything, then inside you is God. Just remember... everyone sees things differently, so everyone will see God differently. Just because someone says God is such+such, doesn't mean that God is ONLY such+such. All it means is that, to that person, God is such+such. Only an arrogant person would insist that their idea of God, how they see God, is the Truth... the ONLY way to see God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 There is truth to be found even in your post. Religion is not the truth - the truth is not religion. Truth is only truth - whether many religions have it in part right, or few. Here's a little story I came up with (or illustration) a year before I realized I didn't believe anymore: It's like waking up on a jolly boat (a small boat for one person and with a sail). You discover that you're not alone, the ocean around you are full of other boats like yours and people in them. Someone in one direction stands up and points away from the group and shouts "I can see land, lets go there". But then someone at the other end of the group do the same thing, stands up and shouts "land ahoy. Thats the true land we should go to." More and more of the people on the outside of the group do the same thing, but they all point in different directions. You realize something is up, and you climb the mast, and you realize you're not on the ocean, but in a lake with shores all around. They're all right that land is where they point, but they're all wrong that it's the only land. Does that story kind of fit your view on religion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 I am a non-denominational, liberal Christian with both pantheistic, and gnostic influence. OK, here is a hypothetical for you: If god is in everything, then is he in the Hindu religion and does that mean salvation can be found through that religion? Salvation can only be found in Christ. Christ come back in Spirit [Holy Spirit - Agape] Only when one live through Spirit and tame ego, will salvation be realized. [Love is the answer, Christ is Love] Bullshit. Man has done nothing to require salvation. The theology of salvation is based upon, and I'll repeat it in case you haven't made the connection yet,--Salvation is built upon the story of the girl given a magical fuit by a talking snake. This is what salvation was to solve, this separation of man from god because of this act of eating prohibited produce. Prohibition does not work even under penalty of death! You cannot believe the story of Jesus if you cannot believe the story of creation and the fall of man. if you do not believe the bible is true, you cannot teach jesus as true. there is no other account of his life nor reason for his existance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 Because if he said "emotions" then he'd have to take the responsibility for being angry and any consequences... whereas if he says "spirits" then it's obviously coming from outside him and it's not his fault if he angrily rams his car into another just because the driver cut him up in traffic... I'm being cynical again, aren't I? It all stems from ego, which is part of me in my natural [fallen] state of being. I am not my ego, but ego is part of my being for the time being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 HereticZero Reasoning with atheists is the same. For example, how humans were created... You never have the logical explaination. A mummy human and a daddy human who love each other very much have a special hug... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 So why do you need to repent? And why would a person call out "repent", with the undertone of "or else"? If "sin" and "suffering" are ways to better understand ourself and grow and rid ourself of Ego, then to repent shouldn't be done in a haste, since you first have to learn the lesson and the repentance has to be because the Ego is subjected to repentance and not because someone just calls it out, right? We need to allow the Spirit to work in us, and that is the change I'm speaking of. Allow it to make us aware of our actions and consequence of action. Sin is good for learning, but if we fail to learn from sin, then we will remain the same. We must change, as we learn and grow. [Repentance is a daily activity] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 We need to allow the Spirit to work in us, and that is the change I'm speaking of. Allow it to make us aware of our actions and consequence of action. Sin is good for learning, but if we fail to learn from sin, then we will remain the same. We must change, as we learn and grow. [Repentance is a daily activity] Then repentance is just a matter of thinking over your actions and try to correct yourself so your future actions aren't done the same way if they are ultimately not beneficial for you or your close ones. Sin is just a symbol for the things we realize aren't beneficial for our existence or future comfort. It doesn't require a "God" to be useful. The "Spirit" you're talking about is your subconsciousness and especially the frontal lobe of your brain which will point out the patterns of behavior can eventually hurt you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 Tell you what... if you want to get to the truth, dump religion entirely. That means everything... all religions, everything. Ideas from the Book of the Dead? Dump them. Stuff from Ancient Rome? Dump them. Dreamtime ideas from the Aborigines? Dump them. Norse beliefs? Hindu? Buddist? Shinto? Jewish? Muslim? Christian? Dump the lot. And that includes all the holy books too... don't keep any of the ideas. Done that? Now... by yourself, start your search for the truth. Search your mind... your feelings. If you truely believe God is in everything, then inside you is God. Just remember... everyone sees things differently, so everyone will see God differently. Just because someone says God is such+such, doesn't mean that God is ONLY such+such. All it means is that, to that person, God is such+such. Only an arrogant person would insist that their idea of God, how they see God, is the Truth... the ONLY way to see God. There are many ways to see God, but that doesn't make one's idea about God true. God cannot be comprehended, which is one reason why I view God as all that is. God is all that is, but I cannot comprhend what that ultimately entails. Mind exist, therefore God is mind. Spirit exist, therefor God is Spirit, matter exist, therefore God is matter. All of these things in thier entirety is what make up God. We live in God, and God lives in us - [All in All] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 Here's a little story I came up with (or illustration) a year before I realized I didn't believe anymore: It's like waking up on a jolly boat (a small boat for one person and with a sail). You discover that you're not alone, the ocean around you are full of other boats like yours and people in them. Someone in one direction stands up and points away from the group and shouts "I can see land, lets go there". But then someone at the other end of the group do the same thing, stands up and shouts "land ahoy. Thats the true land we should go to." More and more of the people on the outside of the group do the same thing, but they all point in different directions. You realize something is up, and you climb the mast, and you realize you're not on the ocean, but in a lake with shores all around. They're all right that land is where they point, but they're all wrong that it's the only land. Does that story kind of fit your view on religion? Nice!! In a nut shell... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Ho-o-o-l-y Sh-h-i-i-t! 14 pages in 24 hours? That's gotta be some kind of record! How much shit can one Xian spout? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 God is all that is, but I cannot comprhend what that ultimately entails. Mind exist, therefore God is mind. Spirit exist, therefor God is Spirit, matter exist, therefore God is matter. Uhm... God *is* my poop too? Interesting idea... Seems almost sacrilegious to flush... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 I'll give it a shot later today CT and HZ. No promises, still in the learning phase. Kool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Michael and Heretic zero: You (and basically atheists) must prove their version, because there are thousands of theories that try to explain creation without God - Evolution, Panspermy and so on. No, moron Panspemia is a theory of how plantary life can arise... it's a broader version of the abiogenesis theory Evolution is how species develop from some form of primal life, effectively diversity coming from uniformity to take advantage of ecological niches and avoid death... Neither obviate the act of creation, but by the same token, they surely don't point to it either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not_Scarevangelist Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Hans... do you know you are the only one who speaks more human-like if it's the right word? Well, I'm trying. I wasn't a couple of weeks ago. It's part of my new approach for this year. I can be just as cursing and pushy as anyone here, and I figured I wanted to balance it out a bit by trying to be nice to the visiting Christians... but believe me, it's not always easy... I still find it quite disturbing that people believe things and spout them as truths when to me it's like someone who wholeheartedly claim that Santa Claus is real. Most of the time I want to shout "grow up!" But I'm trying not to. Fear of hell? I don't think so, I'm Universalist. Do you think we have fear of hell? About peace... you have some points here. Okay. I never knew about Uni-s until I de-converted which makes it a bit difficult at time to approach subjects, because I only know completely all the errors in the theology of the versions of Christianity I came across. My point was that your comment sounded like you have a certain kind of fear for homosexuals. I sure did as a Christian. But now, even though I'm not gay, it doesn't scare me when people are. But the thing is, the concept of sin can't be define by what you consider as sin or what you fear. But on the other hand, the word "sin" is a religious word, defined within its own framework, so I can't really judge how it's done. I understand most points of view. I think I understand why people leave Christianity. In your case it was the situation with your son. I don't know why bad things happen when you have done nothing bad. It's also hard for me to find out why good people (my fellows, my parents and so on) suffer. But I look at this with philosophy. I never gave up on the idea that God is good. It's the sense of my life. I have never been in a situation like you. I wish I could understand you better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Nice!! In a nut shell... I kind of thought so, because you have some similar views (not all, but some) to the ones I had just before I de-converted. Your "all-in-all" view of God and that all there is and exist is God is similar to mine, but with one exception, I don't view this "all-there-is-God" as conscious or sentient. My "God" is just the Universe that is is all powerful, all "knowing" (in the sense that all we know and can know is based on the Universe and it's functions") and it's yin-yang, good-evil, both sides of the coin at once. The balance of things. But as I said this "God" isn't aware or demanding or requesting anything from us as a species. So I think you and I are just a few steps from each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 Then repentance is just a matter of thinking over your actions and try to correct yourself so your future actions aren't done the same way if they are ultimately not beneficial for you or your close ones. Sin is just a symbol for the things we realize aren't beneficial for our existence or future comfort. It doesn't require a "God" to be useful. The "Spirit" you're talking about is your subconsciousness and especially the frontal lobe of your brain which will point out the patterns of behavior can eventually hurt you. Spirit is love that lead to all truth - not frontal lobe that recognize pattern. We are intellegent creatures, [Go ahead, I'm ready] who are able to see pattern and act accordingly, but it is ego that gets in the way. Spirit tames the ego, so we are better able to find harmony with all that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Spraken dittle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 Your "all-in-all" view of God and that all there is and exist is God is similar to mine, but with one exception, I don't view this "all-there-is-God" as conscious or sentient. My "God" is just the Universe that is is all powerful, all "knowing" (in the sense that all we know and can know is based on the Universe and it's functions") and it's yin-yang, good-evil, both sides of the coin at once. The balance of things. But as I said this "God" isn't aware or demanding or requesting anything from us as a species. So I think you and I are just a few steps from each other. No, we see it the same - God wants nothing, He just is. We live within His being. God has law that govern [regulate] all things that exist within Him. He didn't create law for man, but law benefit man when respected. [it's the nature of the machine] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Shmoozen housen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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