Why Do You Remain A Christian?

[JayL]

I think the fundies stand to lose or gain more on the issue of evolution than they do on geocentrism, because by the TOE the story of Adam and Eve looks very problematic at best. And then the doctrine of original sin, as BAA as pointed out, also is threatened. And if that goes, thinks the fundy, who will pay money to churches if they don't need to be saved? - except to liberal churches, which are so wishy washy they'll wither anyway?

 

 

I agree TOE is the main enemy. It forsters atheism and the view of a meaningless universe. TOE's main imperative is 'Survive!'. But for what - when the whole thing is a pretty meaningless accident.

Whats wrong with a meaningless universe? I don't actually ask this naively, I tend to think that the universe is just a brute fact and we are just making the best of it. But why is that wrong?

 

That is probably a good, rational response to the scientific worldview.

 

It is just that Christians believe there is more to our existence than the scientific worldview of 'billions and billions of galaxies'. We believe there is a moral and spiritual meaning behind our existence.

[Guest Valk0010]

I think the fundies stand to lose or gain more on the issue of evolution than they do on geocentrism, because by the TOE the story of Adam and Eve looks very problematic at best. And then the doctrine of original sin, as BAA as pointed out, also is threatened. And if that goes, thinks the fundy, who will pay money to churches if they don't need to be saved? - except to liberal churches, which are so wishy washy they'll wither anyway?

 

 

I agree TOE is the main enemy. It forsters atheism and the view of a meaningless universe. TOE's main imperative is 'Survive!'. But for what - when the whole thing is a pretty meaningless accident.

And do the words "arguement from consequence fallacy" have any meaning to you?

 

I thought I was using reductio ad absurdum or something like that...

Well there are several kinds of wrong here that make it not a proof by contradiction.

 

Atheism is a conclusion not a presumption. You don't start with atheism. While disproving evolution may cause some atheists to convert (for wrong reasons but the facts must be faced) it doesn't disprove atheism. The idea of disproving atheism is really a nonsense term for anybody other then the idiots who say "there is 100 percent no way a god of any kind could exist"

 

There are Christians who accept evolution to be true. (I disagree with them on there reasons but that is a different arguement).

 

So disproving evolution does not automatically disprove atheism.

 

ETA:Removing a absurd point.

[JayL]

I guess I would still be considered a Christian, maybe. I think there is a higher power out there; though if it is the God the Christians think, I'm not sure. I think Jesus was at one point a good teacher, but people just kept twisting and messing up his words so that today we have no idea what he actually said.

 

If one reads the Gospels, one finds that Jesus Christ making an outrageous claim - that he is God the Son visiting the earth. We do have fairly good idea what he is saying. It is just that what he is saying is very, very difficult to accept - just like the people of his time, who put him to death on the cross.

 

 

 

I'm lonely, unsure of myself, and anxious. I have a natural inclination towards it. I feel empty and I don't like myself. I still believe there is a God out there because I guess... It makes me feel better to think that maybe the world is being watched after by someone. It's nice to think that there is a higher power out there who really gives a damn about us poor humans. I just started waking up to reality, and I am a young person. It's hard letting go of the beliefs you were raised with and it's sad. Maybe I will grow more sure of myself and be able to let go. Maybe not; but that is the reason why. I think there are a lot of Christians out there who hang on for the same reasons I did for all these years. Not because of the faith issues, but because they are sad and afraid!

 

 

The main message of the Bible is that God loves you and that He is worthy of our trust. One again, this is not an easy message to accept. But reading in the New Testament about the life, death, and the resurrection of Jesus Christ and later testimonies of his apostles make the message somewhat easier to consider.....

[Guest Valk0010]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

2000 year old texts don't count.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Religion fosters fear, and fear is a convenient mechanism to keep members in bondage, but there really is nothing to fear, because religion is man-made. From what you've said, it seems that you recognize that religion is man-made, so just take that to its logical conclusion and realize that the the fear it fosters is also man-made and no more rooted in truth than the religion it comes from.

 

 

 

Perfect Love Casts Out Fear

 

by Joyce Meyer

Do you suffer from fear or insecurity? What about the fear of lack? Are you worried that God won't come through for you?

I have been there too.

I have been literally worried sick about so many things, including my past, my future, my finances, what people thought about me. And because I couldn't get my mind off of my problems, I found myself in a place of utter torment.

 

 

But we do not have to fear that God doesn't love us or that He won't come through for us in our time of need. We need to learn to accept the reality of His love for us, so that our fears do not control us.

First John 4:18 says that perfect love casts out fear. If you're afraid of facing a person or a situation in your life, God's love can help you put your fears to rest.

 

Go back and re-read the post I was replying to.

 

Yes, I am well aware that the NT says that love casts out fear, and as an adult Christian I didn't have fear, but the fact is that many religious people DO have religion-induced fear. Hiding behind an ancient book of mythology or a currently popular religious nut does not change that fact.

[★ Citsonga ★]

If one reads the Gospels, one finds that Jesus Christ making an outrageous claim - that he is God the Son visiting the earth. We do have fairly good idea what he is saying. It is just that what he is saying is very, very difficult to accept - just like the people of his time, who put him to death on the cross.

 

Yeah, those same <cough> reliable <cough> gospels that have both internal inconsistencies and fabricated prophetic fulfillments based on OT texts being taken completely out of context.

[freeasabird]

I think the fundies stand to lose or gain more on the issue of evolution than they do on geocentrism, because by the TOE the story of Adam and Eve looks very problematic at best. And then the doctrine of original sin, as BAA as pointed out, also is threatened. And if that goes, thinks the fundy, who will pay money to churches if they don't need to be saved? - except to liberal churches, which are so wishy washy they'll wither anyway?

 

 

I agree TOE is the main enemy. It forsters atheism and the view of a meaningless universe. TOE's main imperative is 'Survive!'. But for what - when the whole thing is a pretty meaningless accident.

Whats wrong with a meaningless universe? I don't actually ask this naively, I tend to think that the universe is just a brute fact and we are just making the best of it. But why is that wrong?

 

That is probably a good, rational response to the scientific worldview.

 

It is just that Christians believe there is more to our existence than the scientific worldview of 'billions and billions of galaxies'. We believe there is a moral and spiritual meaning behind our existence.

 

I'm not here to debate but to listen, but I just had to correct one thing. "billions and billions of galaxies" as it's said is not a worldview, it's a damn fact grounded in emperical evidence. Carry on.

[Akheia]

If one reads the Gospels, one finds that Jesus Christ making an outrageous claim - that he is God the Son visiting the earth. We do have fairly good idea what he is saying. It is just that what he is saying is very, very difficult to accept - just like the people of his time, who put him to death on the cross.

 

The main message of the Bible is that God loves you and that He is worthy of our trust. One again, this is not an easy message to accept. But reading in the New Testament about the life, death, and the resurrection of Jesus Christ and later testimonies of his apostles make the message somewhat easier to consider.....

 

 

You mean the gospels that are completely contradictory, unreliable, and uncorroborated by a single other contemporary writer? We don't actually know a damn thing about the mythical character of Jesus, you realize; whoever he started out as, he certainly could not have existed as the NT posits him. Hell, his birthplace didn't even exist like the gospels posit. Unlike Jay's ignorant tight-assed buddies at church, this is a really well-educated group that knows more about the gospels' historicity than he does--not that that's a new thing around here; the Christians who show up are miserably ignorant about their own religion.

 

We know--we do not guess, we do not think, we fucking KNOW because science works--that the NT's books are complete fabrications. We don't even know who really wrote most of them, just as we know that the OT wasn't written by the people who claimed authorship. We know that they were edited to within an inch of their lives and assumed most of their points by the third century, hundreds of years after the mythical death of Jesus (you know, the guy that not a single Roman or Jewish contemporary mentioned and whose trial and death doesn't show up in a single court record among the copious ones the Romans kept, just like not a single Roman or Jewish writer mentioned Jesus' birth, Temple visits, or rock-star sermons and miracles). Trust the Bible? I'd sooner trust the National Enquirer. At least if the Enquirer plays too loosely with the truth, it can be sued, and anybody who blindly believes every single thing it says is rightly mocked by more sensible people.

 

It's also kind of ridiculous that Jay equates "not having an imaginary friend who decides everything for you" with "not having a purpose." You don't have to have a deity to have a purpose in your life, just like you don't have to have a deity to be moral or loving. But why does there have to be a purpose given by a deity? I'm very curious about what terrifies Jay so much about that idea.

[mcdaddy]

 

If one reads the Gospels, one finds that Jesus Christ making an outrageous claim - that he is God the Son visiting the earth. We do have fairly good idea what he is saying. It is just that what he is saying is very, very difficult to accept - just like the people of his time, who put him to death on the cross.

 

the character Jesus said those things, but we have no idea if this chap really existed, or what he would have really said. Ancient writings aren't video evidence.

 

 

 

 

The main message of the Bible is that God loves you and that He is worthy of our trust. One again, this is not an easy message to accept. But reading in the New Testament about the life, death, and the resurrection of Jesus Christ and later testimonies of his apostles make the message somewhat easier to consider.....

 

There are no testimonies of apostles, since te NT is anonymous, besides Paul who wasn't a follower of an earthly Jesus.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Jay, you're back! We missed you on here! And you have apparently not gained any insight about any topic in the time you've been away!

 

I love exclamation points!!

[mcdaddy]

JayL - *to the tune of the 'map' song on Dora the Explorer - "I'm a troll, I'm a troll, I'm a troll, I'm a troll, I'm a troll, I'm a troll, I'M THE TROOOOLLLL!!!!!"

[mymistake]

I'm not here to debate but to listen, but I just had to correct one thing. "billions and billions of galaxies" as it's said is not a worldview, it's a damn fact grounded in emperical evidence. Carry on.

 

Because Christians ignore reality for their favorite fantasy they often project this same behavior onto everyone else. Many of them can't imagine doing anything different. They actually have no concept of what it is like to believe only what can be detected or implied by objective evidence.

[centauri]

 

Perfect Love Casts Out Fear

 

by Joyce Meyer

Do you suffer from fear or insecurity? What about the fear of lack? Are you worried that God won't come through for you?

I have been there too.

I have been literally worried sick about so many things, including my past, my future, my finances, what people thought about me. And because I couldn't get my mind off of my problems, I found myself in a place of utter torment.

 

But we do not have to fear that God doesn't love us or that He won't come through for us in our time of need. We need to learn to accept the reality of His love for us, so that our fears do not control us.

First John 4:18 says that perfect love casts out fear. If you're afraid of facing a person or a situation in your life, God's love can help you put your fears to rest.

If Joyce Meyer really believes this then she has no need to carry insurance on her homes or her private jet.

She has no need for health insurance, visiting a dentist, or having a retirement account.

God's love will provide, which eliminates the need for such earthly considerations.

I seriously doubt she puts her money where her mouth is.

[centauri]

If one reads the Gospels, one finds that Jesus Christ making an outrageous claim - that he is God the Son visiting the earth. We do have fairly good idea what he is saying. It is just that what he is saying is very, very difficult to accept - just like the people of his time, who put him to death on the cross.

Perhaps the reason it's difficult to accept is because it contradicts God's earlier word about himself.

God is not a man.

 

Num 23:19

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

 

^{1 Sam 15:29}

And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

[JayL]

Jay, you're back! We missed you on here! And you have apparently not gained any insight about any topic in the time you've been away!

 

I love exclamation points!!

 

Thanks. If anything I am slower and less able to respond to complex posts ( e.g by BAA ) here... I had a tough oversea trip.

 

 

I guess my goal on this board should be same as that of Joel Osteen - be a positive voice and to uplift people.

[Kaiser01]

Look mommy, a Christian! Can we keep em? Can we?

[JayL]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

2000 year old texts don't count.

 

 

I am saying that there is a vast intelligence behind this incredible universe and that intelligence has reached out to humans. Now your worldview is that all you see around you is based on total randomness and the universe just happened.

 

I say your assumption is extraordinary and requires an extraordinary level of proof. Does TOE speculation quality as a proof? No way!!

[Kaiser01]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

2000 year old texts don't count.

 

 

I am saying that there is a vast intelligence behind this incredible universe and that intelligence has reached out to humans. Now your worldview is that all you see around you is based on total randomness and the universe just happened.

 

I say your assumption is extraordinary and requires an extraordinary level of proof. Does TOE speculation quality as a proof? No way!!

 

Explain to me what you think the Atheist world view on the start of the universe is?

[JayL]

If one reads the Gospels, one finds that Jesus Christ making an outrageous claim - that he is God the Son visiting the earth. We do have fairly good idea what he is saying. It is just that what he is saying is very, very difficult to accept - just like the people of his time, who put him to death on the cross.

Perhaps the reason it's difficult to accept is because it contradicts God's earlier word about himself.

God is not a man.

 

Num 23:19

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

 

^{1 Sam 15:29}

And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

 

 

Interestingly, NKJV has several verses where it says God repented.

 

 

Genesis 6:5-7

 

21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

⁵ And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagining of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

⁶ And the Lord repented that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him in His heart.

[JayL]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

2000 year old texts don't count.

 

 

I am saying that there is a vast intelligence behind this incredible universe and that intelligence has reached out to humans. Now your worldview is that all you see around you is based on total randomness and the universe just happened.

 

I say your assumption is extraordinary and requires an extraordinary level of proof. Does TOE speculation quality as a proof? No way!!

 

Explain to me what you think the Atheist world view on the start of the universe is?

 

Why, do they think there is some meaning behind the 'Big Bang event'?

[mcdaddy]

Everyone is dumber for reading these posts.

[Kaiser01]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

2000 year old texts don't count.

 

 

I am saying that there is a vast intelligence behind this incredible universe and that intelligence has reached out to humans. Now your worldview is that all you see around you is based on total randomness and the universe just happened.

 

I say your assumption is extraordinary and requires an extraordinary level of proof. Does TOE speculation quality as a proof? No way!!

 

Explain to me what you think the Atheist world view on the start of the universe is?

 

Why, do they think there is some meaning behind the 'Big Bang event'?

 

It has't to do with energy values.

 

 

All that is needed to create the first "effect" is something that is self existent, sure that self existent something could be God but the problem is with a crisis of causality, where on explanation becomes no more valuable than the other. I think the quantum feild as the start of the universe viable based on the value of proof because we can observe its effect in plate experinents and when you have a quantum fluctuation no energy is gained or lost. Theism has other problems to it dealing with perosnalism and choice.

[Kaiser01]

In the creation of a flat universe no energy is lost or gained, and we know our universe is flat by simply geometry.

[Guest Valk0010]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

2000 year old texts don't count.

 

 

I am saying that there is a vast intelligence behind this incredible universe and that intelligence has reached out to humans. Now your worldview is that all you see around you is based on total randomness and the universe just happened.

 

I say your assumption is extraordinary and requires an extraordinary level of proof. Does TOE speculation quality as a proof? No way!!

No one said I was a philosophical naturalist. I am not. I don't dogmatically hold a view that the material world is all there is. Its just all the evidence I have seen points to that direction. That is a big difference in principal.

 

As far as this vast intelligence. I am not going to get into the, he should reveal himself to everyone argument even though its valid. But if there is a god, he would have to be a idiot to expect us to believe miracles occured in a 2000 year old text. If a friend of mine tommorow said he was abducted by aliens last night. I would be saying he is full of shit till I seen more evidence. I would say that even if he swore to it with a gun to his head. So how in the blue hell am I to be expected to believe in miracles from 2000 years ago.

 

The theory of evolution is a fact as far as I can see. And I think you deserve a nobel prize if you could prove otherwise.

 

As far as random universe, look up the words, causality and compatablism and get back to me.

[Guest Valk0010]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

2000 year old texts don't count.

 

 

I am saying that there is a vast intelligence behind this incredible universe and that intelligence has reached out to humans. Now your worldview is that all you see around you is based on total randomness and the universe just happened.

 

I say your assumption is extraordinary and requires an extraordinary level of proof. Does TOE speculation quality as a proof? No way!!

 

Explain to me what you think the Atheist world view on the start of the universe is?

 

Why, do they think there is some meaning behind the 'Big Bang event'?

Meaning none, its a brute fact.