Why Do You Remain A Christian?

[JayL]

In a larger perspective, God CANNOT stop people from committing evil and end up going to hell.

Then that god is not worthy of the claims he makes about himself.

 

Alpha and omega my ass.

 

What claims are you thinking of? I believe my views are based on the Bible.

Somehow I think your being willfully obtuse. The guy claims things like, he is the beginning and the end. No gods should be worshipped before me. The tirade he gave job! The potter and the clay.

 

Do I need to mention more?

 

If the god of the bible is not omnipotent, then when he says those things, he is as a simpleton would put it. Full of shit.

 

I get the old deal about how he can't countradict himself. That would be like us throwing cars. But the guy you described is a guy who takes a position somewhere between, not caring about doing anything and being unable to do anything.

 

 

Well, there is always that possibility that I am not as smart as most people here.....

[Astreja]

I just do not follow a lot of your moral arguments.

 

That may be because you seem to think that allowing someone to die in your place is a good and desirable thing, rather than an act of irresponsibility and cowardice.

But I believe you have mistaken notions about God. I am a Christian. I believe in the Gospel message. And that message is: God is Good. God is Love. Everything starts from there.

 

And it all comes crashing down the very instant you allow such a god to have a place of eternal punishment. Jay, if even one being is consigned to hell to eternity, your "loving" god becomes an evil god. It is not loving to allow someone to suffer.

[JayL]

And it all comes crashing down the very instant you allow such a god to have a place of eternal punishment. Jay, if even one being is consigned to hell to eternity, your "loving" god becomes an evil god. It is not loving to allow someone to suffer.

 

First of all, from my reading of the Bible, I am not even sure that hell - 'Lake of Fire' punishment is eternal. The Bible describes it as 'second death'. I could not find notions like 'eternal torture for sinners' in the Bible.

 

But more important point I want to bring out is that God is the God of freedom. He even injected degrees of freedom into the universe He created. Namely his creation literally can spin out of God's control. And in this universe he created beings who can decide their own future. These beings can literally tell God to get lost and there is nothing He can do about them. He has to respect their choice. If they want eternal separation from God, they will have it.

 

I know this sounds like a pretty scary situation but I believe that is the way it is.

[Guest Valk0010]

In a larger perspective, God CANNOT stop people from committing evil and end up going to hell.

Then that god is not worthy of the claims he makes about himself.

 

Alpha and omega my ass.

 

What claims are you thinking of? I believe my views are based on the Bible.

Somehow I think your being willfully obtuse. The guy claims things like, he is the beginning and the end. No gods should be worshipped before me. The tirade he gave job! The potter and the clay.

 

Do I need to mention more?

 

If the god of the bible is not omnipotent, then when he says those things, he is as a simpleton would put it. Full of shit.

 

I get the old deal about how he can't countradict himself. That would be like us throwing cars. But the guy you described is a guy who takes a position somewhere between, not caring about doing anything and being unable to do anything.

 

 

Well, there is always that possibility that I am not as smart as most people here.....

And by that you mean?

[Astreja]

First of all, from my reading of the Bible, I am not even sure that hell - 'Lake of Fire' punishment is eternal. The Bible describes it as 'second death'. I could not find notions like 'eternal torture for sinners' in the Bible.

 

That may be so, Jay, but the fact remains that in your mythology, your god allows only 2 possibilities: Do exactly what it says/wants, or be {tortured, destroyed or exiled, depending on one's interpretation and belief}. There does not seem to be a third option of "Right, off you go then -- Have fun exploring the universe, and if you need help, just give Me a shout."

And in this universe he created beings who can decide their own future. These beings can literally tell God to get lost and there is nothing He can do about them. He has to respect their choice. If they want eternal separation from God, they will have it.

 

So where does the Lake of Fire figure into this 'eternal separation' hypothesis?

 

Oh, and since your god seems to be one of rather limited power, what makes you think it was capable of creating the heavens and the earth?

[JayL]

 

That may be so, Jay, but the fact remains that in your mythology, your god allows only 2 possibilities: Do exactly what it says/wants, or be {tortured, destroyed or exiled, depending on one's interpretation and belief}. There does not seem to be a third option of "Right, off you go then -- Have fun exploring the universe, and if you need help, just give Me a shout."

 

Actually your third option is very close to the Genesis account. He just had one little condition to this 'Have fun' scenario.... It involves a tree....

[JayL]

 

Well, there is always that possibility that I am not as smart as most people here.....

And by that you mean?

 

I may not be willfully acting obtuse...

[Astreja]

Actually your third option is very close to the Genesis account. He just had one little condition to this 'Have fun' scenario.... It involves a tree....

 

A tree that your alleged god deliberately put into the Garden of Eden.

 

A tree that bestowed moral knowledge.

 

Why would I want to dwell in a state of eternal nescience, trapped forever in a happy-clappy garden at the behest of a being that doesn't want Me to know the difference between good and evil? Where's the "free will" in that, Jay?

 

I reject your alleged god's conditions, and I reject your alleged god as well.

[Thackerie]

In a larger perspective, God CANNOT stop people from committing evil and end up going to hell.

Then that god is not worthy of the claims he makes about himself.

 

Alpha and omega my ass.

 

What claims are you thinking of? I believe my views are based on the Bible.

Somehow I think your being willfully obtuse. The guy claims things like, he is the beginning and the end. No gods should be worshipped before me. The tirade he gave job! The potter and the clay.

 

Do I need to mention more?

 

If the god of the bible is not omnipotent, then when he says those things, he is as a simpleton would put it. Full of shit.

 

I get the old deal about how he can't countradict himself. That would be like us throwing cars. But the guy you described is a guy who takes a position somewhere between, not caring about doing anything and being unable to do anything.

 

 

Well, there is always that possibility that I am not as smart as most people here.....

 

He finally said something we can all believe.

[mcdaddy]

'god' won't stop a loony acting in the ideology of 'whites are god's perfect race' from shooting up a religious gathering, slaughtering innocent people. Hell, if 'god' had just kicked up a little gust of wind and closed that side exit in the Colorado theater that massacre might never have happened.

 

In that Sikh temple case, nobody prayed to Jesus to intervene and prevent that tragedy from happening.

 

In a larger perspective, God CANNOT stop people from committing evil and end up going to hell.

 

2 things. 1- the first part is one of the most offensive things ive ever seen in my life. You're truly a sick fuck, Jay.

 

2- again, you reiterate the "God CANNOT" part I spoke to in a previous post that you didn't respond to. Your god is apparently a weak little child with no redeeming power whatsoever, hence not worthy of worship or respect of he cannot do so many good things.

 

Number 3 - go fuck yourself.

[mcdaddy]

In a larger perspective, God CANNOT stop people from committing evil and end up going to hell.

Then that god is not worthy of the claims he makes about himself.

 

Alpha and omega my ass.

 

What claims are you thinking of? I believe my views are based on the Bible.

Somehow I think your being willfully obtuse. The guy claims things like, he is the beginning and the end. No gods should be worshipped before me. The tirade he gave job! The potter and the clay.

 

Do I need to mention more?

 

If the god of the bible is not omnipotent, then when he says those things, he is as a simpleton would put it. Full of shit.

 

I get the old deal about how he can't countradict himself. That would be like us throwing cars. But the guy you described is a guy who takes a position somewhere between, not caring about doing anything and being unable to do anything.

 

 

Well, there is always that possibility that I am not as smart as most people here.....

 

Well , HEY, good for you ignorance is a blessing in your religion, right Jay?!?!

[Akheia]

Um, Jay, you didn't answer my question. Let me rephrase it for you:

 

If your god does ANY miracles, then you invalidate your own words about him giving Earth to people. Christians claim that God does miracles every day. But he never does the big hard shit like healing amputees and ending war. It's always small shit that they could easily do themselves without God. If he gave Earth to us, and gives us free will, then doing miracles invalidates both of those ideas anyway. How do you reconcile these two positions (1. God does miracles; 2. God gave Earth to free-willed humans)? And if your crazy God could do small miracles that were already going to happen anyway, why doesn't he do the big shit that is way less likely to happen?

 

And you do bring up a second way that Christianity fails completely:

 

Your god set up a cosmology that requires his free-willed humans eternal separation from him, without any way of making it right after death. He refused to give these free-willed humans a sense of moral right and wrong, making it impossible for them to truly choose for themselves (since choice would entail knowing the stakes as well as the alternatives). He set them up for failure there--quite the dick move. If he knows everything, then he had to know what a totally unfair "test" that was--and wtf kind of immature asshat is he to test them at all? You don't actually think that's the mark of a mature person, right? Then he set up a totally unreliable rulebook whose every single particular has been disproven or shown to be morally repugnant in nearly every way (raping prisoners of war; treating women as property; extensive rules for slavery; multiple instances of genocide---just to name a few). And then he murdered his own son--or rather allowed him to be murdered--in a totally botched human sacrifice to himself to make right his own blood-soaked cosmology. At some point Any Day Now [tm] he's going to return that murdered son to the world to introduce Armageddon, which will kill EVERYBODY and then he's going to start over, presumably having learned the lessons from this trial run. His true believers will be in heaven partying down and won't even care about their non-believing family, friends, and loved ones. So you think that "free will" means "If you tell me you won't join my club, I'm going to slowly rape and murder you, but if you tell me you'll join, I'll leave you alone." What the fuck kind of "choice" is that?

 

Wow.

 

I seriously cannot imagine how anybody in the modern age believes that load of horseshit. If it's true, then you know what, I think I'll go with eternal separation. I want no part of a deity that acts like that, and I want no part of the fellowship of believers who think his cosmology is a good thing. Yahweh is the cruelest, most evil invention of humankind. I'm very grateful to know it's false, and I truly pity you for being so deluded as to think that any of it's true.

[Akheia]

And speaking of miracles, don't think you can weasel out of it saying that God doesn't do them. The Bible depicts a number of big-shit miracles (like shaking down the walls of Jericho, parting the Red Sea, pillars of fire called down from heaven at the behest of a prophet to prove Yahweh's reality to unbelievers, healing the lame and blind, raising folks from the dead, shaking down prisons, etc). But nowadays it's just healing headaches and cold sores, giving restaurant advice, and finding car keys. It's never big shit anymore. So why'd god retreat like that, when he once thought it was awesome to show off in major ways to people?

[centauri]

First of all, from my reading of the Bible, I am not even sure that hell - 'Lake of Fire' punishment is eternal. The Bible describes it as 'second death'. I could not find notions like 'eternal torture for sinners' in the Bible.

 

They aren't hard to find.

 

Mark 9:45-47

And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

 

Luke 16:23-24

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

 

Rev 14:11

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

These beings can literally tell God to get lost and there is nothing He can do about them. He has to respect their choice. If they want eternal separation from God, they will have it.

The problem is that your version of God respects choice in the same manner as Stalin or other dictators.

The Borg of Star Trek fame would be another example of the type of freedom your God gives and grants.

 

The choice is really an ultimatum where one either bows down to the authority figure or gets killed.

And since simple unbelief is considered to be a "sin", that makes punishment for failure to comply a certainty.

The thought crime (rejecting the demands of this deity for worship) is punished with draconian measures.

You're promoting an air-tight theology that misleadingly uses the word "love" to cover up a brutal ultimatum.

Any dictator or petty God can be justified using your method.

[bornagainathiest]

The creator and maintainer of Hell automatically and irrevocably has 100% responsibility for anything that happens in it. No amount of apologetics can or will change this.

 

Why do you worship such a monster, Jay? Why?

 

Why do you shame yourself by allowing Jesus to take the fall for you?

 

And why, oh why do you trust the alleged word of a god that requires a human sacrifice in order to not condemn a sentient being to an eternity of horror? What makes you so sure that such a being, if it actually existed, wouldn't just shrug, say "Heh. I lied," and pitch you headlong into the flames for shits and giggles?

 

In fact, how do you know that crap like the Sinner's Prayer and the self-loathing rantings of Paul of Tarsus aren't part of a divine test to see who has the cojones to say 'No' to the scare tactics and the immorality of substitutionary atonement? Frankly, I'd want nothing to do with anyone who claimed that they had been magically purified by the death of someone I loved.

 

 

I just do not follow a lot of your moral arguments.

But I believe you have mistaken notions about God.

I am a Christian.

 

No, you're no kind of Christian, Jay. You're a troll pretending to be a Christian and making a very poor job of it. That's how you earned the title, "Obvious Troll" from Ouroboros. That's also why your arguments make so little sense and can be so easily dismantled by us.

 

You're just jerking us around... again!

 

You're also a self-confessed liar and you were caught with your hand in the cookie jar. All you've done is to stay away from the forum for a while, first so that people will forget your tactics and also so that some newbies can join up in the interim. Now you're trying your un-Christian spiel a-fresh on them. It's not difficult to see your thinking, Jay. If they new here and don't know about your past antics, maybe they'll treat you as a real Christian... which is just what you want, right?

 

Good thing I'm here to keep you honest, isn't it? (Rhetorical question, btw.)

 

I believe in the Gospel message.

And that message is: God is Good. God is Love. Everything starts from there.

 

I have to mention this because other people seem to start from a notion, 'God is God. He is 'omnipotent'. He can do anything. etc. To me, that is not the Gospel message. The foundation of Christian faith is the Gospel message: God is All Good.

 

Because people seem to be somewhat enarmored with the other starting point, there are endless arguments like 'If God is all powerful why is there evil??' etc.

 

And I am saying, your starting foundation is wrong.

 

Folks,

 

Please ignore this bozo. He's really not worth your time and effort.

 

BAA.

[JayL]

'god' won't stop a loony acting in the ideology of 'whites are god's perfect race' from shooting up a religious gathering, slaughtering innocent people. Hell, if 'god' had just kicked up a little gust of wind and closed that side exit in the Colorado theater that massacre might never have happened.

 

In that Sikh temple case, nobody prayed to Jesus to intervene and prevent that tragedy from happening.

 

In a larger perspective, God CANNOT stop people from committing evil and end up going to hell.

 

2 things. 1- the first part is one of the most offensive things ive ever seen in my life. You're truly a sick fuck, Jay.

 

2- again, you reiterate the "God CANNOT" part I spoke to in a previous post that you didn't respond to. Your god is apparently a weak little child with no redeeming power whatsoever, hence not worthy of worship or respect of he cannot do so many good things.

 

Number 3 - go fuck yourself.

 

 

I have to maintain higher standards.

 

I have to maintain higher standards.

 

I have to maintain higher standards.

[JayL]

 

Folks,

 

Please ignore this bozo. He's really not worth your time and effort.

 

BAA.

 

 

I think a number of people are interested in this discussion...

[JayL]

Rev 14:11

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

 

Thanks for quoting this verse. In all my time of studying the Bible, this is the ONLY verse I found where eternal torture is alluded to. But there are several other verses where souls of sinners get destroyed and no more - i.e. torture is not eternal.

 

But I also have to admit that this is quite theoretical. Even 5 minutes in Biblical hell would be very, very, VERY bad. If the Biblical account is true, we have to do our best to avoid going anywhere near hell.

[CDFree]

Interested, nah, but you are giving us, me at least, a laugh with your trollish tripe

 

Fish anyone

[★ Citsonga ★]

Rev 14:11

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

 

Thanks for quoting this verse. In all my time of studying the Bible, this is the ONLY verse I found where eternal torture is alluded to.

 

REVELATION 20

¹⁰ And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

¹¹ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

¹² And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

¹³ And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

¹⁴ And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

¹⁵ And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

But there are several other verses where souls of sinners get destroyed and no more - i.e. torture is not eternal.

 

The Bible is inconsistent.

That's no surprise to us.

 

Even 5 minutes in Biblical hell would be very, very, VERY bad. If the Biblical account is true, we have to do our best to avoid going anywhere near hell.

 

Good thing it's not true. For your sake, I hope the Muslim Hell isn't true.

[Akheia]

Rev 14:11

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

 

Thanks for quoting this verse. In all my time of studying the Bible, this is the ONLY verse I found where eternal torture is alluded to. But there are several other verses where souls of sinners get destroyed and no more - i.e. torture is not eternal.

 

But I also have to admit that this is quite theoretical. Even 5 minutes in Biblical hell would be very, very, VERY bad. If the Biblical account is true, we have to do our best to avoid going anywhere near hell.

 

I'm waiting for you to realize that according to your cosmology, YOUR GOD is the one who created hell and made a system whereby his beloved children might spend even a second there. Everything I said is true about him being cruel and evil, and your own words back me up. Good work!

[midniterider]

And it all comes crashing down the very instant you allow such a god to have a place of eternal punishment. Jay, if even one being is consigned to hell to eternity, your "loving" god becomes an evil god. It is not loving to allow someone to suffer.

 

First of all, from my reading of the Bible, I am not even sure that hell - 'Lake of Fire' punishment is eternal. The Bible describes it as 'second death'. I could not find notions like 'eternal torture for sinners' in the Bible.

 

But more important point I want to bring out is that God is the God of freedom. He even injected degrees of freedom into the universe He created. Namely his creation literally can spin out of God's control. And in this universe he created beings who can decide their own future. These beings can literally tell God to get lost and there is nothing He can do about them. He has to respect their choice. If they want eternal separation from God, they will have it.

 

I know this sounds like a pretty scary situation but I believe that is the way it is.

 

So hell is not eternal torture. Sounds good. And I can tell god to get lost and he has to respect my choice. Sounds good. Why would this be a scary thing?

[midniterider]

'god' won't stop a loony acting in the ideology of 'whites are god's perfect race' from shooting up a religious gathering, slaughtering innocent people. Hell, if 'god' had just kicked up a little gust of wind and closed that side exit in the Colorado theater that massacre might never have happened.

 

Read my previous posts. In that Sikh temple case, nobody prayed to Jesus to intervene and prevent that tragedy from happening. God CANNOT stop people from doing evil by their own volition.

 

In a larger perspective, God CANNOT stop people from committing evil and end up going to hell.

 

You are correct. God, who is imaginary, cannot stop people from committing evil. Something that doesn't exist, like god for instance, cannot do anything at all.

 

Nor can this non-existent being send people to a non-existent place , like hell for example.

[Thackerie]

'god' won't stop a loony acting in the ideology of 'whites are god's perfect race' from shooting up a religious gathering, slaughtering innocent people. Hell, if 'god' had just kicked up a little gust of wind and closed that side exit in the Colorado theater that massacre might never have happened.

 

Read my previous posts. In that Sikh temple case, nobody prayed to Jesus to intervene and prevent that tragedy from happening. God CANNOT stop people from doing evil by their own volition.

 

In a larger perspective, God CANNOT stop people from committing evil and end up going to hell.

 

Yuck! Gross! The part I highlighted is truly disgusting. I sure hope this JayL person is a troll. Otherwise, it's a horrible, hateful bigot that doesn't deserve to live among normal human beings.

[midniterider]

'God' will fuck you up...

 

 

I am telling you. God has nothing to do with it. You are fucking yourself up by not receiveing God's salvation that is Jesus Christ.

 

True. God has nothing to do with it. God, who doesn't exist has nothing to do with anything. I am not fucking myself up by not receiving the non-existent salvation of the imaginary entity known as jesus christ.

 

But I was fucked up once because I allowed myself to become infected with a virulent, self-replicating meme known as Christianity.