Something that pisses me off.

[Ouroboros]

Good point.  I probably believe some things you think are wrong but you aren't just going to stop speaking to me.  right?

I'm definitely not going to stop speaking to you. We had no beef you and I...

 

I get the feeling that the issue you wanted to bring up was misunderstood and got twisted to become a racial issue instead of the question of the religion. And maybe this is a serious problem that the Jewish people eventually have to find a way to tell people, that Judaism and Jewish is not necessarily the same. The has been many agnostic Jews in history, so people have to learn to separate these two concepts, Jews is not by default Judaist, and a Judaist is not by default a Jew. So I think this thread got steered of its track by the choice of words you made, rather than the issue you wanted to bring up.

 

And to everyone that have decided to leave the site because if differences of opinion, I think that doesn’t help or further anyone’s understanding. Knowledge and tolerance is built on interaction and trust, and to hear statements that no one is refuting the racist claims that were made, makes me wonder if someone even read what I wrote. I started to pick the racist claims apart from the moment I read it, and yet people decide to leave because no one is standing up against racism? Which way do you want it? Free forum means that people will say what they want, and when issues are brought up they’re dealt with; people get chewed out and if you’re strong enough you stay and learn from the experience, not just give up. By leaving, you let your opponent win.

[doomguarder]

Wow, for being some of the most rational people I have had the pleasure of reading on the net, ya'll got in a tizzy about this one fast!

 

Zoe's original post , taken in the light of her second on this topic (the one recounting the conversation between the two lawyers), is not anti-semitic. If anything it brings up a valid question…Should those here who view religion as a problem and not a solution, shine the light of reason on all faiths? Pagans were also brought up in this line. My answer is yes.

 

Many here support her primary non PC idea.

 

One poster, name not needed, took the “Jews run everything” and should be treated as oppressors idea. Only 1. Every post responding to that one was a rebuttal. No one supported his idea.

 

I see this as a positive. 1 out of how many responders?

[Guest WhatIsTruth9]

ROFLMFAO!  I DO rail against the fluffy fundie pagans.  I rail against them WAY more than the Fundie Jews.  Either I don't talk about that much here, or you haven't been listening.

 

It's likely I dont' talk about that much here...because as someone else stated this is EX-C.  It's not EX-every religion.

 

And yet...many posts on this board deal with the harmful effects of religion in general.  It seems only when someone pinpoints a religion "other than" Christianity that it gets uncomfortable for people.

 

I probably wouldn't have mentioned my issues with Judaism if it weren't for the DIRECT LINK to christianity.  I mean cause come on...without Judaism there would have been no Christianity.  Maybe there would have been something else or something just as bad, but the Christian religion wouldn't exist.

 

Big shock that a set of violent, misogynistic, racist, myths would give birth to a set of violent, misogynistic, racist myths.  Unfortunately, while the mamma religion for the most part has outgrown it's crap...the baby religion birthed from it, has not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm not uncomfortable with anything. I don't care if you have issues with Judaism. I was only saying if you are going to rail about a thing that goes on in Christianity and in Judaism that goes on in other religions don't leave them out just because they are not linked to christianity or judaism. Sorry if I haven't seen all of your posts that rail against bad things in fundy pagansim. Sheesh. My post was merely a suggestion. You don't have to get sarcastic and pissy with me. I'm well aware of the problems with Christianity and the former problems of Judaism. I certainly don't need a refresher course.

[Guest Rabbi Dan]

Some can't be appeased no matter what one says. Damned if You do, Dammed if you don't. If you are so sensitive to not accept critiicism that's your bag. I've apologized and if that's not good enough. That your fucking problem.

 

I don't care to be a member of this board anymore. I have better things to do than waste my time.

 

Rabbi Dan

[NotBlinded]

...and this is how the world goes 'round.

[Guest WhatIsTruth9]

Some can't be appeased no matter what one says. Damned if You do, Dammed if you don't. If you are so sensitive to not accept critiicism that's your bag. I've apologized and if that's not good enough. That your fucking problem.

 

I don't care to be a member of this board anymore. I have better things to do than waste my time.

 

Rabbi Dan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Have a nice day!

 

[♦ nivek ♦]

Everything that can be said from this point on with this subject can be done so via e.mail or PM/Im services.

 

We agree to disagree on some shit, argue on others.

 

Quit chasing tails and biting on each other. Subject has devolved from an opinion giving to a frag fest.

 

Nofuckingbody is gonna *win*.

 

If I have to lock topic at ire of participants, I'll do so.

 

Forums fulla other things to go discuss and have a decent time on.

 

Stop the petty bickering and arguing.

 

k, shotgun for the Boss, L.

 

Edited: From this post on, this thread, time outs and corner settings given to those who *just can't resist" "one last byte on way out of fight".

 

kL

[Ouroboros]

Wow, for being some of the most rational people I have had the pleasure of reading on the net, ya'll got in a tizzy about this one fast!

 

Zoe's original post , taken in the light of her second on this topic (the one recounting the conversation between the two lawyers), is not anti-semitic. If anything it brings up a valid question…Should those here who view religion as a problem and not a solution, shine the light of reason on all faiths? Pagans were also brought up in this line. My answer is yes.

 

Many here support her primary non PC idea.

 

One poster, name not needed, took the “Jews run everything” and should be treated as oppressors idea. Only 1. Every post responding to that one was a rebuttal. No one supported his idea.

 

I see this as a positive. 1 out of how many responders?

I agree. It shows the power of the site and the members, not the opposite.

 

And I think with this kind of topic and discussion, people can learn the facts, and maybe even change. Who knows, RabbiDan had a view I've seen many times before, with real people, and even friends, and I had to have a discussion with my friends and they changed their view (at least somewhat). And maybe RabbiDan will too.

 

I get just as upset if a Muslim come up to me and tell me outright lies (refering to secret society etc) about Christianity or the western world, or America or Europe or ... etc

 

There's no secret society of Jews. If the society is Illuminate, then it is for sure not Jewish, that is a freemason order that have strong Gnostic influence, not Jewish, and not Kabbalah.

[Ouroboros]

I have to say one more thing that came to my mind.

 

Free speech is a tricky beast, an open forum like this has the purpose of letting us say whatever we want.

 

I'm not angry with RabbiDan for saying the things he said, but I am angry that people leave the site because things said. Who will stand on the wall and defend truth if you just give up.

 

I'm sorry Pitch, I understand where you come from, but to leave the site will only hurt us and the community and not help anyone. And what upsets me even more is that you have left in the belief that we all here are racist thugs, which is extremely untrue.

[NotBlinded]

Please bear with me on what I am about to say. I am hoping not to offend anyone. Zoe, I have read and respected what you have to say for a long time, but I want to ask one question. How can religion be separated from people? Please know that I do understand what you are saying because I was there too very recently. Now, on to my post...

 

I am having a hard time trying to understand how one can separate the religion from the person (please bear with me). Religion would not exist were it not for humanity. I can only imagine what horrific circumstances that surrounded the people that wrote books for ancient religion. It was a time of war, where lives meant nothing to outsiders. So, I feel, there was a need for a god that would fight fire with fire. Most people will notice how the trend is changing from a waring god to a loving god as times get easier for most people.

 

There is an underlying need that people have, call it innate if you will, to call upon the supernatural (god) when there is no relief from the natural (humanity). So, eliminating religion from humanity is not the answer. That would be like putting a bandaid on a cancerous sore. People need to address what is causing the need and try to find a way to help people that feel there is no help to be had. Humanity has not found a way to do that just yet. We have come a long way (hence the loving god reference above) to help people overcome circumstances that they never would have before.

 

We are becoming more compasionate and do put value on human life to where other's situations are more bearable than they would have been 100's of years ago. Religion is born from people's desire to know that their life has meaning and worth and when people cannot provide that, they must find something that will.

 

I don't know how to cure the ills of the world other than trying to find a way to help those that view their situations as hopeless (and I'm not sure how to even do that).

 

So when we curse and hate religions, we are demeaning the people that follow it because it is their ray of sunshine during a very stormy life. I can find no way to separate the two.

[Ouroboros]

NBBTB, Since this thread has gone a bit off track etc. And it would be interesting to discuss this topic you just brought out, what'ya say you start a new topic, and just copy the post you did, and lets start a discussion about "Connetion between Religion and Humans, Do humans need religioin?" or something...

 

Actually I think we should start a thread about free speech, and how people react to discussions and conflicts of ideas, and maybe how people should deal with it...maybe?

[NotBlinded]

NBBTB, Since this thread has gone a bit off track etc. And it would be interesting to discuss this topic you just brought out, what'ya say you start a new topic, and just copy the post you did, and lets start a discussion about "Connetion between Religion and Humans, Do humans need religioin?" or something...

 

Actually I think we should start a thread about free speech, and how people react to discussions and conflicts of ideas, and maybe how people should deal with it...maybe?

Where shall I put it...the debate section?

[Guest Rabbi Dan]

I forgot to post these excerpts taken from open minded people commenting on the issue I've addressed. I guess there's absolutley NO truth to any of it. As I've stated. I was misinformed. Rabbi Dan

 

"I think anyone that can't see the control that jews have over the US is either blind or completly ignorant. Behind every major bank, insurance company, television, newspaper there is a jewish person pulling the strings. There's nothing wrong with that per say, but if one minority controls most of the high powered companies and with that most of the economy, don't you think they also can have an impact on the government? Who runs CNN? I'll bet you he's either a Goldberg, or Steinberg or some other jewish name, look at the credits in any major film production, most directors are jews.. Steven Spielberg is a jew. Ohh wait there's a really good one.. Greenspan .. you know the guy that can raise or lower interest rates.. yupp he's a jew. These are just a few .. . Why is it that other religions / nationalities / races can be ridiculed without any major press outrage, but god forbid you say anything negative about the jews and it becomes a media frenzy! You are automatically an anti-semite, jew hater ... please .. people open your eyes!!! I don't want to put all the jews in the same box, I think a lot of them are just normal people living everyday lives ... it's the ones that are rich and in high power positions."

 

"The real problem here is how the concept of racism has paralyzed the world's political debates and therefore its thinking. For example, any criticism of Israel’s policies are likely to produce responses suggesting that you are anti-Semitic or "racist." With that, the debate is closed because racist statements do not deserve a well thought response. Racism thus provides a curtain to hide behind and prevents any further rational debate on the issue. "

[Ouroboros]

Where shall I put it...the debate section?

Yeah, that sounds about right.

[Cerise]

What the bloody frikken hell is going on here?

[a midnight star]

*****ROFLMFAO! I DO rail against the fluffy fundie pagans. I rail against them WAY more than the Fundie Jews. Either I don't talk about that much here, or you haven't been listening.******

 

SO thats why most here ignore me!! LOL Though fluffbunny is not my style, and I am not wiccan. Not all pagans are wiccan, not do we all subscripe to Gardner or Leland as our authorities.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unprovable bullshavings edited.

[NotBlinded]

religion as a set of beliefs/doctrines is separated from the individual people who practice it all the time.  There is a big big difference in thinking a set of beliefs is evil and thinking individual people are evil because they follow that set of beliefs.

 

Most people don't do wrong for the sake of doing wrong, they believe what they are doing is right.  We all know there is a LOT of crap in Christianity...yet most christians, IRL even fundamentalists are nice people outside of their belief system.

 

The problem with the Jewish thing is this:  With Christianity: if someone is a christian they are christian because they chose to be (not getting into the topic of cultural conditioning here.)  With Judaism it's a bit more complex.  Not all Jews follow the Jewish religion.  Yet for someone to say they are a Jew doesn't necessarily mean they Chose to be a Jew.  It's about lineage and history.

 

Being considered Jewish (unless you convert to the Jewish Religion) is passed matrilineally.  If your mother was a Jew, you are also a Jew, but it doesn't mean that you follow the Jewish religion.  Unfortunately many people don't want to make this distinction.  They want to act as if this is a racial discussion when it's a discussion about religious beliefs and tenets which ARE UP FOR DEBATE.

 

You can be against a religion without hating the people who follow the religion. 

 

I disagree that organized religion is the solution to humanity's problems.  While it may be true that a metaphorical construct or reality, myths and metaphors can be helpful, overall when large groups of people get together under the banner of a list of unprovable set of assertions and beliefs the end result is chaos and destruction.  Organized religion may make people comfortable, but ultimately I don't believe it's the answer.

 

Not once have I said: "Let's eliminate religion"  Just because I disagree with something or think it's wrong, doesn't mean I think that my views mean that the entire world should step in line with what Zoe thinks.  Not once have I suggested let's wipe out this or that religion.  Not once have I suggested stepping in and impeding the civil rights or free will of another human being, unless their actions impede the civil rights and free will of everybody else.

 

But my opinion that "superstition gets us nothing but badness" still stands.  But only as my opinion, you are free to disagree with it.

If you had read my posts, all of them you would know I'm working through some issues here.  One of them is not being angry at something that doesn't exist anymore.  The other one is...no matter how much comfort it brings, if a thread of a religion (i.e. fundamentalism) brings more pain and confusion to the world than hope, then it's harmful .

Zoe,

 

I appoligize the way my post came accross. I was afraid it would sound bad and I really didn't mean it to. I also am working through some issues and I just realized that me being hateful towards religion wasn't doing me or anyone else any good. I didn't mean to imply that you were being that way. My bad. I only wanted to express my opinion on the distinction between religion and people. That's all.

[Cerise]

lol just read the whole thread.  The Zoe had a breakthrough, but probably not in the most socially approved of ways.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I did read the whole thread. I still don't know what the fuck is going on.

 

Unless there are erased posts which I can't see, I have no idea why Pitchu felt the need to vamanos.

[Cerise]

But, you know, the feeling of a site is dictated by the participants, as someone wise said on another site.  There is an atmosphere of hate that has begun to permeate this one.  I'm off to greener pastures.  I barely post here anymore anyway and haven't even had the inclination to pick an avatar.

 

Thanks for all the fish Dave.  This site still has a great purpose and I'm glad I was a part of it.  But, I think the benefit isn't there for me anymore.  Most of you know where to find me.

 

Ren

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

WHAT THE FUCK?

 

The reply I gave to Pitchu's farewell post...that goes for you too, Ren.

 

Seriously...I don't understand any of this.

[Ouroboros]

*****ROFLMFAO! I DO rail against the fluffy fundie pagans. I rail against them WAY more than the Fundie Jews. Either I don't talk about that much here, or you haven't been listening.******

 

SO thats why most here ignore me!! LOL Though fluffbunny is not my style, and I am not wiccan. Not all pagans are wiccan, not do we all subscripe to Gardner or Leland as our authorities.

Now, as far as hitler goes. Doen nobody here remember their history? Hitler was a JEW. He was born of a jewish mother. He hated his mother and hid his religion of birth. This was a jew killing other jews. Hitler thought himself that he was better, that being white was the "chosen race" The racism was the other way around. The same as it is with some morons towards blacks. "We are white, we are better than you, we are going to kill you." Hitlers chosen path was pagan. He hated that which was inside of himself.

 

About Hitler, if I remember right he was quarter or maybe only 1/8 Jew, but it was in the family. He had brown eyes and brown hair and below the minimum standard length for a true arian. Oh, btw, I'm a true arian, white, 6", blue eyes, blond, the whole thing, and I'm definitely against any kind of racism. Funny isnt'?

[dogmatically_challenged]

Are you sure about this? Who's the owners of the world bank? And who's the richest men on Earth?

 

Last time I checked none or maybe one was Jewish in the top 10 list... But there was an ex-nazi there, and some Christians and some atheists... and a muslim (what's his name, the sheik?)

 

Btw, the World Bank is not owned by any person. There are 184 countries that owns it, and each member country have a vote and certain control of the bank. Not privatly owned. The current president might be Jewish, but he doesn't own it.

 

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/E...K:29708,00.html

 

I think you're taking it a bit too far. Secret Societies... nah... conspiracy theories doesn't stick with me.

 

Jewish family used to be somewhat big in the Movie industry, and possible media. But Sony recently bought MGM, so that influence is pretty much gone.

 

Finance, nah, I don't believe they have much there. Many white people, christians and atheists though.

 

Only 20 years ago, Jews were not allowed in restaurants in Key West, Florida Key. The place for the richest people in the world. So if you're right, the restaurant never had any patrons.

I think you're joking... right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Hans! Damn! I never could swallow the idea of secret societies or jews own the world type of crap. It never made any sense to me. I used to think the elite billionares owned the world, but now I think it's true and not true. I don't have a clear picture as to that. I don't necessariy equate wealth with evil anymore either. Many are rich because despite what some believe good ethical business practices pays more often than scams and breaking the law. The rich can do much good or can be assholes just like everyone else.

[I Broke Free]

"I think anyone that can't see the control that jews have over the US is either blind or completly ignorant. Behind every major bank, insurance company, television, newspaper there is a jewish person pulling the strings. There's nothing wrong with that per say, but if one minority controls most of the high powered companies and with that most of the economy, don't you think they also can have an impact on the government? Who runs CNN? I'll bet you he's either a Goldberg, or Steinberg or some other jewish name, look at the credits in any major film production, most directors are jews.. Steven Spielberg is a jew. Ohh wait there's a really good one.. Greenspan .. you know the guy that can raise or lower interest rates.. yupp he's a jew. These are just a few .. .

 

Are you suggesting a Jewish conspiracy? I am having a hard time connecting the dots here. Are Greenspan and Spielberg in collusion behind our backs to make a fascinating, action packed movie about economics? Considering the importance Jewish people give education, I see nothing unusual or in the least bit threatening about the percentage of Jews in high ranking positions. Seems like more like sour-grapes to me.

[Cerise]

I'm with you.  I posted in this thread the first page, and came back to this. 

 

Since it is pertaining to the Jews/Judaism, I can already guess that Hitler was mentioned somewhere and racism somewhere else.  Probably got ugly.  I don't have time to dig through it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

It didn't get half as near as ugly as I would have expected for people to have to leave the frikken forum over it, that's for damn sure.

[Amethyst]

I'm with you. I posted in this thread the first page, and came back to this.

 

Ditto. There have been some very stupid comments made by some people who apparently didn't think before they made them. My rule of thumb is: If you are in a heated discussion on a message board, take a few deep breaths and calm down before you post something stupid. If you are having a kneejerk reaction to something, type it in notepad and delete it, and see if you still feel like posting it then.

[Ouroboros]

Thanks Hans! Damn! I never could swallow the idea of secret societies or jews own the world type of crap. It never made any sense to me. I used to think the elite billionares owned the world, but now I think it's true and not true. I don't have a clear picture as to that. I don't necessariy equate wealth with evil anymore either. Many are rich because despite what some believe good ethical business practices pays more often than scams and breaking the law. The rich can do much good or can be assholes just like everyone else.

What's funny is that most people in power are not necessarily the people with most wealth. Many super rich people decide to withdraw from society and its implications. They have a serious problem in Japan right now the young rich people with still a lot to give and help the progress in the corporations, they become rich so fast, and still so young, that they retire at 30-35! And what do they do, start playing golf and travel. So what's happening is that the people with brains and skills are not driving the business anymore.